Food for thought, II

[candycorn]

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

“Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."
― Harry Truman

“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
― George Washington

“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us."
― William O. Douglas

“The moment you say that any idea system is sacred, whether it’s a religious belief system or a secular ideology, the moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible."
― Salman Rushdie

"A sacred cow, unexamined, feeds itself and produces a whole lot of bullshit. And nobody wants that, except the people who profit by selling you bullshit. Those are the people who try to tell you that examining or criticizing the sacred cow is taboo.”
― Oliver Markus Malloy

Obviously all deep state actors.

 

[candycorn]

What I find troubling is when opposition, either left or right, doesn't attack the point of what's said but instead demonizes the speaker.

I hear you and agree with you....but sometimes it's warranted and you reject the point out of hand. Samantha Bee's characterization of Ms. Trump, Roseanne's tweet about V. Jarret and Susan Rice, and many others.

 

[LoneLaugher]

What I find troubling is when opposition, either left or right, doesn't attack the point of what's said but instead demonizes the speake

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

We agree. Again.

 

[OldLady]

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

“Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."
― Harry Truman

“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
― George Washington

“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us."
― William O. Douglas

“The moment you say that any idea system is sacred, whether it’s a religious belief system or a secular ideology, the moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible."
― Salman Rushdie

"A sacred cow, unexamined, feeds itself and produces a whole lot of bullshit. And nobody wants that, except the people who profit by selling you bullshit. Those are the people who try to tell you that examining or criticizing the sacred cow is taboo.”
― Oliver Markus Malloy

I suppose you're right. I don't like the flip side of the coin, but I suppose we have to live with it?

TNHarley
Mark your calendar.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Nice try, next time you try to build a straw man, don't use wet straw and dress it in asbestos. I did not mention the lever of impeachment, you suggested it, not I.

Trump is an embarrassment, a bully, inept, incompetent and a liar. None of that is necessarily a high crime or a misdemeanor. He is, as I posted in this response and in the one to which you responded an embarrassment as well as an empty suit.

We will know if he has committed high crimes and misdemeanors if and only if an unfettered investigation is allowed to continue, and to follow the evidence already uncovered, and interview those under oath and under penalty of perjury for lying.

BTW:

"President Trump must sit for seven hours of questioning in the defamation case filed by a former contestant on his reality TV show, a judge ruled Tuesday — but it’s unclear if he’ll get grilled about other women’s allegations of sexual assault and harassment.

"Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Jennifer Schecter ordered that Trump be deposed by Jan. 31 and told lawyers on both sides to submit written arguments on whether Summer Zervos’ lawyer can ask him about the other accusers."

https://nypost.com/2018/06/05/trump-must-sit-for-deposition-in-zervos-defamation-case-judge/

I said that free speech doesn't equal freedom from criticism, and you said "but Trunp called someone a son of bitch!" I asked if that meant he should be removed from office and you're saying no but Trump is a meanie anyway.

Do I have that straight? If so, why even bring up Trump with regard to free speech? What's the purpose other than needing to profess your hate for Trump?

I was clear in my response, and your effort to spin my comment is dishonest. I wrote, "The President called a citizen a Son of a Bitch is not illegal, but coming from The President of the United States it is proof Trump is déclassé", as well as a bully".

I stand by that remark; Trump's remark is not criticism, and anyone who has taken a college level course would understand; it is an ad hominem, a logical fallacy which you are free to look up.

Yet it's still free speech. So, i'm just wondering why you started a thread with some great quotes about free speech and the importance of it, then bring up Trump. Unsolicited, no less, in response to a comment not directly made at you.

One might decipher from this that you're looking for any reason to profess your undying hate for Donald Trump.

I don't hate Trump, but I don't like him and find his lack of class an embarrassment. I'm not going to explain myself again, he has every right to express his opinion, as long as he wants. That he is a liar, a bully and worse is something you excuse(?) (admire?), There are limits to free speech and my criticism in no way censors him, my point is to make people like you think, and in that I know I'm not always successful.

I can't do anything about Trump's rhetoric, which is deplorable most of the time. How can i excuse it when i have no authority (rightfully so) to do anything other than vote for someone else in 2020? I certainly don't admire it. What do i have to gain by bitching to no end about it? Other than making myself unhappy and frustrated, nothing.

How are you making people think by calling Donald Trump a bully and a liar? By that definition, about 100 million hate-fueled people who have nothing better to do with their lives than to get all worked up by what Trump says are making people "think" as well

If I see or hear something I act. It's really that simple. And, Trump IS a damn liar and a bully and they are not even his worst character flaws.

 

[dblack]

What I find troubling is when opposition, either left or right, doesn't attack the point of what's said but instead demonizes the speake

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

We agree. Again.

Unless cakes are involved.

 

[dblack]

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

I agree. But we are a nation of laws, and the freedom of speech and expression have limits.

Yeah, "consequences". Say the wrong thing and we'll get you.

We'll leverage our Freedom of Speech to stop you from exercising yours.

That's not freedom of expression. That's a cynical perversion of it, a mockery.
.

No, it is freedom of speech. That's other people using their freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean anyone will listen to you, or sit silently while you say something. It doesn't mean they have to broadcast your views on their media network. They can even try to convince other media network owners that your views aren't worth broadcasting. They can organize boycotts against your business, or petition your boss to have you fired.

None of these things violate free speech. They are examples of free speech. Freedom of speech means you are free to express your opinions without interference from government. That's it. That's the case with all our rights. They are promises that government won't interfere with individual freedom - they aren't a requirement that our neighbors accommodate our desires.

 

[Mac1958]

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

I agree. But we are a nation of laws, and the freedom of speech and expression have limits.

Yeah, "consequences". Say the wrong thing and we'll get you.

We'll leverage our Freedom of Speech to stop you from exercising yours.

That's not freedom of expression. That's a cynical perversion of it, a mockery.
.

No, it is freedom of speech. That's other people using their freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean anyone will listen to you, or sit silently while you say something. It doesn't mean they have to broadcast your views on their media network. They can even try to convince other media network owners that your views aren't worth broadcasting. They can organize boycotts against your business, or petition your boss to have you fired.

None of these things violate free speech. They are examples of free speech. Freedom of speech means you are free to express your opinions without interference from government. That's it. That's the case with all our rights. They are promises that government won't interfere with individual freedom - they aren't a requirement that our neighbors accommodate our desires.

"I may not agree with a thing you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

That's not about the government, that's about us. That's about the most liberal of ideals, allowing others the opportunity speak their mind without roadblocks or threats or intimidation. And that's my take on the spirit of Freedom of Speech. It may not be yours.
.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Why do we need to be lectured about the free speech clause in the 1st Amendment by the left when kids in college can be kicked out for uttering a banned word and every conservative speaker has been the victim of assault on a college campus one or numerous times in their careers.? I'd say that an apology rather than quotes from Indian born authors would be a sign that the crazy angry left is ready to enter the 21st century.

First of all the 1st A. restricts the Congress, not private citizens.

Please name the college student (s) who used a "banned word" (and what is was) and was then kicked out of college.

Your reference to CAL is foolish, since the University is known for the Free Speech Movement and its faculty includes professors and guest lecturers of all stripes and colors. An agent provocateur, such as Ms. Coulter was not banned, as the Republican Party and the Student Republican Club stated, it was the University and Berkeley Police Agencies who cancelled her appearance for community safety.

There is no place on our planet with more diversity than at CAL and the area surrounding the Campus. Anarchists and republicans, Vets and war protesters, all colors, creeds and ethnicity study together and debate the issues in class and off; a walk on Telegraph Ave and one will encounter a hodgepodge of people, a minority of them homeless and troublemakers; a minority who disrupt peaceful protests for "kicks".

 

[LordBrownTrout]

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

“Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."
― Harry Truman

“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
― George Washington

“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us."
― William O. Douglas

“The moment you say that any idea system is sacred, whether it’s a religious belief system or a secular ideology, the moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible."
― Salman Rushdie

"A sacred cow, unexamined, feeds itself and produces a whole lot of bullshit. And nobody wants that, except the people who profit by selling you bullshit. Those are the people who try to tell you that examining or criticizing the sacred cow is taboo.”
― Oliver Markus Malloy

All good statements.

 

[dblack]

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

I agree. But we are a nation of laws, and the freedom of speech and expression have limits.

Yeah, "consequences". Say the wrong thing and we'll get you.

We'll leverage our Freedom of Speech to stop you from exercising yours.

That's not freedom of expression. That's a cynical perversion of it, a mockery.
.

No, it is freedom of speech. That's other people using their freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean anyone will listen to you, or sit silently while you say something. It doesn't mean they have to broadcast your views on their media network. They can even try to convince other media network owners that your views aren't worth broadcasting. They can organize boycotts against your business, or petition your boss to have you fired.

None of these things violate free speech. They are examples of free speech. Freedom of speech means you are free to express your opinions without interference from government. That's it. That's the case with all our rights. They are promises that government won't interfere with individual freedom - they aren't a requirement that our neighbors accommodate our desires.

"I may not agree with a thing you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

That's not about the government, that's about us. That's about the most liberal of ideals, allowing others the opportunity speak their mind without roadblocks or threats or intimidation. And that's my take on the spirit of Freedom of Speech. It may not be yours.
.

Fair enough. I agree. But I'm wary of this movement to convert rights into accommodations. In many ways, they are the opposite.

 

[Wry Catcher]

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

I agree. But we are a nation of laws, and the freedom of speech and expression have limits.

Yeah, "consequences". Say the wrong thing and we'll get you.

We'll leverage our Freedom of Speech to stop you from exercising yours.

That's not freedom of expression. That's a cynical perversion of it, a mockery.
.

No, it is freedom of speech. That's other people using their freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean anyone will listen to you, or sit silently while you say something. It doesn't mean they have to broadcast your views on their media network. They can even try to convince other media network owners that your views aren't worth broadcasting. They can organize boycotts against your business, or petition your boss to have you fired.

None of these things violate free speech. They are examples of free speech. Freedom of speech means you are free to express your opinions without interference from government. That's it. That's the case with all our rights. They are promises that government won't interfere with individual freedom - they aren't a requirement that our neighbors accommodate our desires.

"I may not agree with a thing you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

That's not about the government, that's about us. That's about the most liberal of ideals, allowing others the opportunity speak their mind without roadblocks or threats or intimidation. And that's my take on the spirit of Freedom of Speech. It may not be yours.
.

And yet defamation may make free speech costly, if proved in a civil court judgment.

 

[Mac1958]

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

I agree. But we are a nation of laws, and the freedom of speech and expression have limits.

Yeah, "consequences". Say the wrong thing and we'll get you.

We'll leverage our Freedom of Speech to stop you from exercising yours.

That's not freedom of expression. That's a cynical perversion of it, a mockery.
.

No, it is freedom of speech. That's other people using their freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean anyone will listen to you, or sit silently while you say something. It doesn't mean they have to broadcast your views on their media network. They can even try to convince other media network owners that your views aren't worth broadcasting. They can organize boycotts against your business, or petition your boss to have you fired.

None of these things violate free speech. They are examples of free speech. Freedom of speech means you are free to express your opinions without interference from government. That's it. That's the case with all our rights. They are promises that government won't interfere with individual freedom - they aren't a requirement that our neighbors accommodate our desires.

"I may not agree with a thing you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

That's not about the government, that's about us. That's about the most liberal of ideals, allowing others the opportunity speak their mind without roadblocks or threats or intimidation. And that's my take on the spirit of Freedom of Speech. It may not be yours.
.

And yet defamation may make free speech costly, if proved in a civil court judgment.

There are exceptions to rules, particularly when something directly damages someone.

Otherwise, my interpretation of, and advocacy for, freedom of expression are significantly more open and liberal and less authoritarian than those on the ends of the spectrum.
.

 

[LoneLaugher]

What I find troubling is when opposition, either left or right, doesn't attack the point of what's said but instead demonizes the speake

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

We agree. Again.

Unless cakes are involved.

Fail.

 

[dblack]

What I find troubling is when opposition, either left or right, doesn't attack the point of what's said but instead demonizes the speake

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

We agree. Again.

Unless cakes are involved.

Fail.

Nothin'?

 

[LoneLaugher]

What I find troubling is when opposition, either left or right, doesn't attack the point of what's said but instead demonizes the speake

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

We agree. Again.

Unless cakes are involved.

Fail.

Nothin'?

Give me something to work with. Maybe you'll get more in return.

That baker can say whatever the fuck he wants while he's making that fucking cake. I welcome that.

In fact, he can go to the nearest bakery owned by a gay person and refuse to buy a cake from them because they are gay. No problem.

Try harder.

 

[dblack]

What I find troubling is when opposition, either left or right, doesn't attack the point of what's said but instead demonizes the speake

Yep, this should be posted on every college campus in the country.

And high school, for that matter. Get 'em young.

There's nothing wrong with allowing speech we don't like.
..

We agree. Again.

Unless cakes are involved.

Fail.

Nothin'?

Give me something to work with. Maybe you'll get more in return.

That baker can say whatever the fuck he wants while he's making that fucking cake. I welcome that.

In fact, he can go to the nearest bakery owned by a gay person and refuse to buy a cake from them they are gay. No problem.

Try harder.

He can even refuse to bake a cake for gay customers. He just can't say why.

 

[LoneLaugher]

We agree. Again.

Unless cakes are involved.

Fail.

Nothin'?

Give me something to work with. Maybe you'll get more in return.

That baker can say whatever the fuck he wants while he's making that fucking cake. I welcome that.

In fact, he can go to the nearest bakery owned by a gay person and refuse to buy a cake from them they are gay. No problem.

Try harder.

He can even refuse to bake a cake for gay customers. He just can't say why.

Pretty much. You are learning.

Realistically, he's gonna hafta come up with a reason, though. Don't ya think?

And if the gay customer suspects that the reason is, in fact, discrimination, he or she can file suit.

That's how it works.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

I stand by that remark; Trump's remark is not criticism, and anyone who has taken a college level course would understand; it is an ad hominem, a logical fallacy which you are free to look up.

Another fucktard who neither understands what free speech is, nor the purpose of identifying a logical fallacy.

 

[Dragonlady]

What I find troubling is when opposition, either left or right, doesn't attack the point of what's said but instead demonizes the speaker.

When a speaker issue constantly lying, deflecting, attacking the rights of others, and destroying the very foundations of truth, fairness and freedoms on which your country was built, maybe it’s time to demonize the speaker.