Four ways Christians are getting the gay debate wrong

[FA_Q2]

Well, turzovka, I was all ready to tear up your arguments and then:

I see, so science has proven to the world this is an open and shut case, and for any of us to question that is bigoted to say the least? So is bi-sexual a choice? Is there a gene for that, too? You think culture and society’s norms do not influence a confused teen or an eager experimenting teen to go further?
Nowadays, gay is hot. Gay is mainstream (some bullying notwithstanding) where you can be accepted at a young age and pursue your desires. Good and bad. Not for one second do I think teenage girls who “hook up” for the excitement of the sex have one molecule of a “gay gene” in their bodies. I just think sexual desires manifest themselves in many, many ways, and if there is no moral or spiritual conscience holding one back, they will very likely experiment.
I am opposed to shaming or discriminating against gays. I am heavily opposed to Christians telling them they will go to hell because of their sin. But I am also heavily opposed to public schools promoting this lifestyle as normal or a perfectly ok path to choose. Because this is a moral and spiritual matter, and the government has no right to be an advocate for something that may have grave eternal implications. It is a religious matter in many ways.
So have your gay marriage, but don’t think that God has not weighed in on this. I believe the free immoral environment the West has been relishing in for 50 years has contributed greatly to influencing and enticing humanity to choose whatever sexual path “feels right” and that surely is now evident. Many more now experiment with gay sex and openly promote it to others who are young or not sure about themselves. This is a bad moral development in my opinion. Not unlike how all other kinds of pre-marital sex have been promoted and given the public’s blessing which is just as bad or worse than the gay phenomenon.

This is reasonable and a personal belief. I agree that ‘promoting’ such a lifestyle in a public education curriculum is inane and wrong. I will defend that gay is NOT a choice but it damn well can be and there is no reason that we should be helping that phenomenon along. If people are gay, then they are going to come to terms with that no matter what the public school says and it certainly is NOT going to be easier either way. As long as no one here is advocating that we treat gays differently or refrain from giving them rights then I don’t see what the big deal is. There is no rhyme or reason to demand that Christians simply are not allowed to view the act or ‘decision’ as a sin. Personal religious beliefs are none of my business whether or not I disagree with them. I find the attacks against Christians that are simply stating the belief that it is wrong deplorable. People have told me that I have done things that they say are ‘wrong’ and I don’t care. It is not their lives.

The strange part is that these people usually do not come out and plaster that belief all over the place. Some do but most are asked and they are simply giving an answer. If you already know the answer (as we usually do) and done like it, what the fuck are you asking the question for in the first place.

As far as science proving that it is not a choice, please read my post above. I would like to hear your response to that. It is what I base my belief that gay is not a choice on. If you disagree, I would like a level response to that as I normally just get tripe and bullshit.

 

[turzovka]

I really appreciate your thoughtful response, and I agree with more of what you said than you may think.

But since you asked I would like to comment on your other comments above when time allows. (work constraints)

Thanks again.

 

[turzovka]

This is reasonable and a personal belief. I agree that ‘promoting’ such a lifestyle in a public education curriculum is inane and wrong. I will defend that gay is NOT a choice but it damn well can be and there is no reason that we should be helping that phenomenon along. If people are gay, then they are going to come to terms with that no matter what the public school says and it certainly is NOT going to be easier either way. As long as no one here is advocating that we treat gays differently or refrain from giving them rights then I don’t see what the big deal is. There is no rhyme or reason to demand that Christians simply are not allowed to view the act or ‘decision’ as a sin. Personal religious beliefs are none of my business whether or not I disagree with them. I find the attacks against Christians that are simply stating the belief that it is wrong deplorable. People have told me that I have done things that they say are ‘wrong’ and I don’t care. It is not their lives.

The strange part is that these people usually do not come out and plaster that belief all over the place. Some do but most are asked and they are simply giving an answer. If you already know the answer (as we usually do) and done like it, what the fuck are you asking the question for in the first place.

As far as science proving that it is not a choice, please read my post above. I would like to hear your response to that. It is what I base my belief that gay is not a choice on. If you disagree, I would like a level response to that as I normally just get tripe and bullshit.

I am grateful for an honest and charitable opinion as you just offered above. I wish it were more accepted by both sides. We Christians can be so judgmental and deplorable in our brash positions, while here you castigate “the other side” for some its own unfair treatment of Christians. Well said, imo.

I reprint your other comments here below.

I will tell you what did it for me. I realized that being gay was NOT a choice the day that I reflected back to when I ‘decided’ to like girls. The reality is that no one actually ‘chooses’ to be attracted to women. It simply happens. Normally, we even hide this from our peers as women are ‘yucky’ and have cooties. That occurrence is natural and out of your control. The idea that you chose this to happen is rather insane.

I won’t argue about a “natural” inclination towards the opposite sex. However, that does not necessarily mean to me that we do not choose to be gay in some cases. I think some do where it did not have to end up that way as you suggest below.

I will admit that it is possible for someone to force it and actually make it a choice. That is in the same manner that a gay person forces themselves into a straight relationship even if they truly are gay.

I am having trouble with the condition “truly gay.” Does that mean one was born with so many effeminate characteristics that no culture or religion or environment could dissuade those feelings? Ok, maybe. But in most cases I am not convinced. I believe in many cases environment and exposure makes all the difference. I believe when sexual experimentation is open and encouraged then the chances of one becoming “gay” in our society increase greatly. I believe there are far more people practicing the gay lifestyle in the past 40 years than there were in the previous 40 years of this nation. And what I mean by “practicing” I mean they look upon themselves as a person who can only love someone of their own sex and it is past the point of changing.

How many “hot girls” are just hooking up with each other for a sexual encounter just because it sounds thrilling and any kind of titillation is an exciting thought these days? Is there anything in their physiology that is telling their mind they like girls and not guys? Of course not! But if someone who has no religious convictions or deterrents starts liking sex and all it has to offer, I admit it is entirely possible some guy may find sex with another guy more kinky and satisfying than being with a woman and the same for two females. So the more they pursue it the more they become it . Now on the other hand, if there was some “confused” teen living on the prairie in 1910 Indiana and he becomes a farmer and he ends up marrying a girl because he sees it as his destiny, he very well may become much more attracted to this woman and any homosexual thoughts or fantasies will have long dissipated. In addition: I strongly believe God and God’s graces help the man or woman who seeks to be chaste and who seeks to want to be liked by the opposite sex. If there is no God then all my theories are worthless.

I, personally would find that rather difficult – some parts on me just don’t work in the presence of other nude men, but it is possible. It likely even happens but to declare that being gay is a choice for everyone and they can simply ignore that basic part of them is nuts.

Maybe. Not a choice for everyone, but a choice for most if they were only brought up in a proper family and better behaved culture. And where does bisexuality fit into all this? Are there some born that way, without choice? No way.

So, yes, for all intents and purposes I have to believe some are destined to be homosexuals (without very extraordinary measures preventing them from pursuing that or mentally asserting that). But most who become gay do not know they are such a person or they have come to that conclusion only because society and culture influenced them and did nothing (including spiritual teachings) to prevent them from gravitating that way.

We as Christians must be sympathetic to the cause of those who claim to be homosexuals regardless of how that was arrived, as I believe God is sympathetic as well. Their burden is great and they very well may not be judged as harshly as those of us not conflicted by such thoughts. But we Christians are not called upon to promote this sexual condition as perfectly normal or Ok for anyone to pursue. In fact, as a parent, I should admonish my own against it. I surely can admonish my government against being a cheerleader.

 

[FA_Q2]

I won’t argue about a “natural” inclination towards the opposite sex. However, that does not necessarily mean to me that we do not choose to be gay in some cases. I think some do where it did not have to end up that way as you suggest below.

No argument here. You can make that ‘choice’ but those that do are not the crux of the problem with recognizing rights. It is those that do not where that recognition comes into play.

I will admit that it is possible for someone to force it and actually make it a choice. That is in the same manner that a gay person forces themselves into a straight relationship even if they truly are gay.

I am having trouble with the condition “truly gay.” Does that mean one was born with so many effeminate characteristics that no culture or religion or environment could dissuade those feelings? Ok, maybe. But in most cases I am not convinced. I believe in many cases environment and exposure makes all the difference. I believe when sexual experimentation is open and encouraged then the chances of one becoming “gay” in our society increase greatly. I believe there are far more people practicing the gay lifestyle in the past 40 years than there were in the previous 40 years of this nation. And what I mean by “practicing” I mean they look upon themselves as a person who can only love someone of their own sex and it is past the point of changing.

I am not so sure though. As I stated, I have never chosen to like women, it just happened and continues to happen. I don’t ‘operate’ around men and think that I would have to go pretty far out of the way to actually make that occur. Something like that is revolting to my core so I would never tend that direction.

I do think that openly encouraging such thing IS going to cause some increase in those that experiment and are wholly out for simple pleasures. What I am troubled by though is the realization that there are some that simply are gay. You might not agree but how do you think that those who are in a straight relationship break that. Do you really believe that a man with a family finally admits that he is gay because he WANTS to? It seems to me that almost nothing could be more horrific than that. The loss and trouble that you are going to face is monumental.

How many “hot girls” are just hooking up with each other for a sexual encounter just because it sounds thrilling and any kind of titillation is an exciting thought these days? Is there anything in their physiology that is telling their mind they like girls and not guys? Of course not! But if someone who has no religious convictions or deterrents starts liking sex and all it has to offer, I admit it is entirely possible some guy may find sex with another guy more kinky and satisfying than being with a woman and the same for two females. So the more they pursue it the more they become it .

Again, this is possible but I find that unlikely simply because, again, I do not choose what excites me. I never thought, hey, I am going to start liking blonds. That simply happened. I am attracted to blond women. My wife though, is a brunet. Now, I will not say that there is any woman that I want more or am attracted to more than my wife but I STILL prefer the look of blond women. It is built into who I am and I don’t think any amount of exposure is going to change that simple fact of my life.

I think how terrible it would be for me if I were attracted to men instead! What would I do if the world stigmatized that reality? How would I cope? Never have sex? That is a terrible thing for a person to face as we are, in our hearts, VERY sexual creatures. It is an intrinsic part of what we are.

Now on the other hand, if there was some “confused” teen living on the prairie in 1910 Indiana and he becomes a farmer and he ends up marrying a girl because he sees it as his destiny, he very well may become much more attracted to this woman and any homosexual thoughts or fantasies will have long dissipated. In addition: I strongly believe God and God’s graces help the man or woman who seeks to be chaste and who seeks to want to be liked by the opposite sex. If there is no God then all my theories are worthless.

Those that break from that though kind of dash that concept, don’t they. People that have gone as far as having a family before realizing that they were denying a basic part of themselves. I don’t think that I would cease liking women if I was having gay sex ten times a day. I just like women

Weather there is a God or not does not really matter though. What matters is what we are allowing government to do or push on others. In that context, we are all free to believe what we want as we are all free to sin as we want. The souls of gay people are in their hands and Gods. It neither falls to others or to government to protect that.

I, personally would find that rather difficult – some parts on me just don’t work in the presence of other nude men, but it is possible. It likely even happens but to declare that being gay is a choice for everyone and they can simply ignore that basic part of them is nuts.

Maybe. Not a choice for everyone, but a choice for most if they were only brought up in a proper family and better behaved culture. And where does bisexuality fit into all this? Are there some born that way, without choice? No way.

So, yes, for all intents and purposes I have to believe some are destined to be homosexuals (without very extraordinary measures preventing them from pursuing that or mentally asserting that). But most who become gay do not know they are such a person or they have come to that conclusion only because society and culture influenced them and did nothing (including spiritual teachings) to prevent them from gravitating that way.

We as Christians must be sympathetic to the cause of those who claim to be homosexuals regardless of how that was arrived, as I believe God is sympathetic as well. Their burden is great and they very well may not be judged as harshly as those of us not conflicted by such thoughts. But we Christians are not called upon to promote this sexual condition as perfectly normal or Ok for anyone to pursue. In fact, as a parent, I should admonish my own against it. I surely can admonish my government against being a cheerleader.

I don’t know where bisexuals really fit tbh. If they are ‘attracted’ to both sexes than I really don’t see them as loosing anything or rights being a problem atm. What I am concerned with is those that are stuck because they are what they are.

In the end, I would like it if the gays were allowed the same rights that other enjoy, being able to marry and the like, and then they shut up about it thus allowing people that discover they truly are gay to make their own decisions about it. It won’t happen, I know. There will still be advocacy groups and people pushing the ‘gay lifestyle’ out there but I can’t be concerned about what others are going to do. I can’t control others. What I can do is control my own actions and ensure that those actions do not prevent others from enjoying the freedoms that I have. Exposure may not be a good thing but I really don’t care what is ‘better’ for people. That is the concern of each individual person. They are the ones that need to makes sure that they have what is better. My concern is that I am not enforcing my will on others.

 

[The Irish Ram]

BS. Most "fake" Christians, see it as one and the same. And BS. Which "Christians" would those be?

What do you mean by "fake" Christians? Why don't you start a poll asking "what is the sin? Being a homosexual or having homosexual intercourse?" And see what people say

Why would I do that? I don't really care, one way or another. Faith, personal beliefs, and morality are not up for discussion. My life isn't predicate on what others think is moral or right. I decide that for me. Hopefully, you decide that for you, and others for themselves. All we can go on is what people say or do. Christ was all about tolerance and love...you won't find any of that up in here. So, safe to say, true Christians are painfully absent in political debate forums. Christ and God Almighty, I'm almost sure, don't subscribe to "man-made" ideologies.

Name a sin He tolerated.

 

[GWV5903]

Crumbs from the Communion Table ? Four ways Christians are getting the gay debate wrong.
"......Let me be clear: I think everyone has a right to their moral views, even when they disagree with mine. We Americans can disagree on the morality of gay sex just as we can disagree on the morality of eating meat or drinking alcohol. We Christians have disagreed for centuries on theological questions from the makeup of the Scriptures to infant baptism to transubstantiation. But this isn’t just about a moral disagreement; it’s about how we treat one another and how we talk about one another. If we Christians can’t show more love and willingness to listen, it won’t change one person from gay to straight, but it will turn a lot of people against Christianity...."

Hush, truth.

Acceptance is the defining point...

You accept who you choose to accept, accepting someone who is GLBT does not mean you accept their transgressions...
What the Hell is that supposed to mean?

There is bound to be someone who accepts you Poet, that alone is a beginning for the GLBT community...

".....forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me....". I believe you're confused about the word "accepting".

You altered a post, against the rules dumb dumb...

I know it's over your head...

 

[LittleNipper]

Why? The crazy, mentally disturbed and homeless roam the streets, unhindered, daily.

Don't blame me for that --- blame youself.

Blame myself??? That is you, and you're responsible for yourself.

Me thinks you need to pull the plank out of your own eye first!

 

[Crackerjaxon]

Gays are constantly harping on Christians. Their end goal is to eliminate Christians from the conversation because they don't like what they say.

See? I can pretend to know the mind of every gay. It's easy to do.

Another wide brush propaganda piece brought to you by Poet.

 

[LittleNipper]

Crumbs from the Communion Table ? Four ways Christians are getting the gay debate wrong.
"......Let me be clear: I think everyone has a right to their moral views, even when they disagree with mine. We Americans can disagree on the morality of gay sex just as we can disagree on the morality of eating meat or drinking alcohol. We Christians have disagreed for centuries on theological questions from the makeup of the Scriptures to infant baptism to transubstantiation. But this isn’t just about a moral disagreement; it’s about how we treat one another and how we talk about one another. If we Christians can’t show more love and willingness to listen, it won’t change one person from gay to straight, but it will turn a lot of people against Christianity...."

Hush, truth.

You're confused. God's word is clear. Homosexuality is an abomination. Period. Either one believes God or believes a lie. Period. There is no "willingness to listen". There is repentance or damnation for all. Period. Precisely how one comes to homosexuality is not relevant at all. Beyond that, God can and does deliver people from homosexuality all the time. The rest is just you rejecting the realities of the Fall, its effect on man on every level of his being, including genetics. Can you say, "illusion"?

For some reason, people have come to believe that just because they do not see how the actions of another harms anyone else, that such actions are okay. People influence people, and their actions influence the actions of others ---- in one way or another. Homosexual sex does influence how heterosexuals interact. Anal sex can become the norm. Oral sex totally fine. The odd thing is the homosexuals might wear comdoms during anal sex, but do they wear a condom during oral sex? Blood is blood/ Infection is infection. Heterosexuals are becoming permissive because they are starting to behave in the same manor and believe they are excused... Such is not the case!