Get Used to It: Israel Is Here to Stay

[Kondor3]

Wake me up when the Israelis start gassing the Palestinians and cremating their remains...

Well, they're already using Willie Peat...

Oh, puh-leeeze.

"...What difference does the method of extermination make? Dead is dead. When people are gone, they're gone..."

You claim that the Israelis are treating the Palestinians in the same manner that the Nazis treated the Jews.

Nonsense.

A few hundred or a thousand or two unintentional Palestinian collateral casualties spanning a lengthy timeframe (years) attributable to Israeli Defense Force retaliations and fire-suppression and militia-suppression sorties, can hardly be compared to intentional and well-planned and organized Nazi production-line extermination of Jews, running in the tens of thousands daily.

"...Holocaust victims must be looking at Israel today going, 'WTF is this shit! I guess my death meant nothing to them?'"

Somehow, I seriously doubt that if the Shades of the Holocaust Dead could speak to us, that they would be taking sides with the Muslim-Arab Palestinians against their own children and grandchildren and fellow Jews.

 

[Billo_Really]

You know that Israel is not exterminating Palestinians - who's numbers are growing as others have pointed out. So why do you keep telling this absurd lie Billo? Is it that you are a follower of Dr. Goebbles, who was of the the opinion that if one tells a big enough lie, and repeats it often enough, some people will believe it?

I know it's not called "extermination". I believe the zionists word for it is "transfer".

“We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country… expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”

Theodor Herzl (1895) - PLAN DALET

 

[Billo_Really]

Oh, puh-leeeze.

You claim that the Israelis are treating the Palestinians in the same manner that the Nazis treated the Jews.

Nonsense.

A few hundred or a thousand or two unintentional Palestinian collateral casualties spanning a lengthy timeframe (years) attributable to Israeli Defense Force retaliations and fire-suppression and militia-suppression sorties, can hardly be compared to intentional and well-planned and organized Nazi production-line extermination of Jews, running in the tens of thousands daily.

Somehow, I seriously doubt that if the Shades of the Holocaust Dead could speak to us, that they would be taking sides with the Muslim-Arab Palestinians against their own children and grandchildren and fellow Jews.

I listed several comparisons in post #733.

I challenge anyone, to argue any one of those points, not to be true.

 

[Billo_Really]

Boy are you dumb...all the Arabs in Gaza had to do was build a normal, functioning, society, but instead they chose to elected a terrorist organization to run the place, and to lob rockets onto Israeli citizens (including Arabs) they are being supplied with weapons from Iran among others get your head out of your ass boy, you embarrass yourself

Those rockets are always in response to an Israeli air strike or military action by the IDF. If Israel doesn't want rockets, then end the occupation. The occupation is the cause of all the hostility in the region.

Gazan's have a right to elect anyone they fucking please. Israel does not have the right to punish them, because they didn't like the results of a legal, democratic election.

Keep in mind, that "terrorist organization", was created by Israel. Funded by Israel. And supported by Israel, in order to oppose the PA. It wasn't until it was clear, that organization had no intention of kissing Israel's ass, did Israel turn on them and get hostile.

 

[Billo_Really]

1. Show me where Israel have broken ceasefires.
2. Show me where Palestinians have died while at a checkpoint waiting for treatment in an Israeli hospital.
3. Evidence of human shields, (yet again).
Israel Matzav: The Goldstone Commission on human shields: Lies and damned lies
4. Rockets from Gaza to Israel are for anyone who happens to be in the vicinity - military or civilian, hence Code Red sirens in Israel when one is launched from Gaza. 15 - 30 seconds for Israelis to find shelter or safety.

Just give me a second while I go get a couple of beers and I'll tell you all about it.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Boy are you dumb...all the Arabs in Gaza had to do was build a normal, functioning, society, but instead they chose to elected a terrorist organization to run the place, and to lob rockets onto Israeli citizens (including Arabs) they are being supplied with weapons from Iran among others get your head out of your ass boy, you embarrass yourself

Those rockets are always in response to an Israeli air strike or military action by the IDF. If Israel doesn't want rockets, then end the occupation. The occupation is the cause of all the hostility in the region.

Gazan's have a right to elect anyone they fucking please. Israel does not have the right to punish them, because they didn't like the results of a legal, democratic election.

Keep in mind, that "terrorist organization", was created by Israel. Funded by Israel. And supported by Israel, in order to oppose the PA. It wasn't until it was clear, that organization had no intention of kissing Israel's ass, did Israel turn on them and get hostile.

The rockets are NOT always in response to a military action. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Military actions are the response to the constant barrage of rockets. Don't you follow Lipush's posts? She lives right there. And Israel HAS no occupational forces in Gaza. Boy, are you a tool!

 

[Billo_Really]

The rockets are NOT always in response to a military action. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Military actions are the response to the constant barrage of rockets. Don't you follow Lipush's posts? She lives right there. And Israel HAS no occupational forces in Gaza. Boy, are you a tool!

The rockets started in 2001.

The occupation started 37 years before that.

And you don't have to have a physical presence in the area in order to constitute an "occupation". As long as you maintain "effective control" of that area, it is still considered an occupation. And Israel controls 80% of what goes in to (and out of) Gaza.

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

So --- is that the extent of it? One military operation (Operation Cast Lead) in late 2008 and early 2009! That --- in response to 2800 rocket and mortars fired into Israel in the year 2008?

v/r
R

 

[RoccoR]

Billo_Really, et al,

This is what we call the "cry baby defense."

The rockets are NOT always in response to a military action. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Military actions are the response to the constant barrage of rockets. Don't you follow Lipush's posts? She lives right there. And Israel HAS no occupational forces in Gaza. Boy, are you a tool!

The rockets started in 2001.

The occupation started 37 years before that.

And you don't have to have a physical presence in the area in order to constitute an "occupation". As long as you maintain "effective control" of that area, it is still considered an occupation. And Israel controls 80% of what goes in to (and out of) Gaza.

(COMMENT)

Using that logic, when do you count Palestinian Terrorism starting? Maybe with the admission made by HAMAS and the coming of the martyr Izz ad-din al-Qassam (1920/1930's). Maybe it starts with the Munich Olympics massacre (1972). Maybe with the murders of Chaim Weizman and David Bizi (1993).

You can start the clock anywhere. But that doesn't get us any closer to to a solution.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Billo_Really]

1. Show me where Israel have broken ceasefires.
2. Show me where Palestinians have died while at a checkpoint waiting for treatment in an Israeli hospital.
3. Evidence of human shields, (yet again).
Israel Matzav: The Goldstone Commission on human shields: Lies and damned lies
4. Rockets from Gaza to Israel are for anyone who happens to be in the vicinity - military or civilian, hence Code Red sirens in Israel when one is launched from Gaza. 15 - 30 seconds for Israelis to find shelter or safety.

Just give me a second while I go get a couple of beers and I'll tell you all about it.

Okay, now that I'm back and have powered down a couple beers, I'm ready argue!

As far as your first point...

1. Show me where Israel have broken ceasefires.

...this has happened so many times, I'm surprized you even asked.

Israeli forces break Gaza ceasefire as Netanyahu outlines his political calculations

Anwar Qdeih, 23, was shot through the head as he tried to place a Hamas flag on the fence near Khan Younis, in southern Gaza. Around 20 other Palestinians were wounded. Israel claimed to be responding to “violent activity” by 300 protesters.

So the placement of a flag, is a capital crime?

For over 4 months, Hamas unilaterally honored the ceasefire and rocket attacks went down to virtually zero. That all changed on December 8, 2008, when the IDF launched a commando raid inside Gaza to kill government leaders.

CNN Finally Confirms Israel Broke Ceasefire First

And Israel has done the same thing in Lebanon.

An outlaw state: Israel breaks ceasefire, threatens to assassinate Hezbollah leader

Israeli forces on Saturday carried out a flagrant violation of the ceasefire along the Lebanon-Israel border, as dozens of military commandos attacked the village of Boudai, near Baalbek in the Bekaa Valley of eastern Lebanon. The raid was the first full-scale breach in the ceasefire between Israeli and Hezbollah forces in south Lebanon which took effect on Monday, August 14.

There's 3 examples. But Israel has broken "all" of them.

As for your second point...

2. Show me where Palestinians have died while at a checkpoint waiting for treatment in an Israeli hospital.

129 of them, for that matter...

Palestinian Health Care Conditions Under Occupation

According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, 36 health care workers have been killed, 447 health providers have been wounded and 129 patients have died at Israeli checkpoints.

approximately 33 per cent of villages within the West Bank will be denied “…free and open access to their health care system,” per the IHC. Moreover, 81 per cent “…of people living in isolated zones and enclaves cannot access primary health clinics, medical centers, and hospitals as needed.”

There are instances where Palestinians need access to urgent medical care, but Israeli forces will not allow Palestinian ambulances to cross the checkpoint. When this happens Palestinians are forced to transfer to an Israeli ambulance, which costs anywhere from 350 New Israeli Shekels (NIS) – 650 NIS ($80 USD – 150 USD).

So much for crossing checkpoints in an emergency.

Now on to your third point....

3. Evidence of human shields, (yet again).
Israel Matzav: The Goldstone Commission on human shields: Lies and damned lies

Israel claims everything is a lie. But that's all it is..............claims. The Goldstone Report is very detailed and comes complete with all the required citations and corroborating evidence to prove what is stated in the "report" to be valid. On the Israeli side, all you get is he said/she said hearsay.

If you want me to comment on your link, you need to tell me what specific part of it I'm supposed to address. I'm not going to go click on it and then try to guess what your point is.

Now on to your fourth point....

4. Rockets from Gaza to Israel are for anyone who happens to be in the vicinity - military or civilian, hence Code Red sirens in Israel when one is launched from Gaza. 15 - 30 seconds for Israelis to find shelter or safety.

Although I agree the rockets are war crimes and have condemned their use, that's as far as my empathy goes on this subject.

Gazan's don't have shelters to run to. And the difference between the destruction from a rocket and the destruction from a missle strike is...

 

[Billo_Really]

This is what we call the "cry baby defense."

Using that logic, when do you count Palestinian Terrorism starting? Maybe with the admission made by HAMAS and the coming of the martyr Izz ad-din al-Qassam (1920/1930's). Maybe it starts with the Munich Olympics massacre (1972). Maybe with the murders of Chaim Weizman and David Bizi (1993).

You can start the clock anywhere. But that doesn't get us any closer to to a solution.

Don't talk to me about cry baby's! You fuckers whine like banshees whenever anyone directs criticism you way, no matter how valid it is.

As far as the violence goes, if you wanna go down that road, there was never any recorded incidents of major violence in that area, until the zionists showed up.

You're the cause of it all! And you refuse to accept responsibility for anything you do.

 

[Billo_Really]

So --- is that the extent of it? One military operation (Operation Cast Lead) in late 2008 and early 2009! That --- in response to 2800 rocket and mortars fired into Israel in the year 2008?

They waited 37 years before they started lobbing rockets your way.

I think you owe them a "thank you" for their patience.

 

[Billo_Really]

• crime they did not commit: financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.
  • (60/288. The United Nations Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy)

• Gazan's choose to represent them: Terrorist supporting government. As an example, the
  • Hamas-Izz al-Din al-Qassem (terrorist wing of Hamas);
  • PIJ (Palestinian Islamic Jihad).
  The Israel's, nor anyone else, is saying that the Palestinians cannot elect their own government. What is said is that if the Palestinian People democratically choose to be State Sponsors of Terrorism, there is a consequence.

Resisting an illegal and belligerent occupation from a foreign force, is not terrorism.

Did they? Or did they just say they did.

In an article published July 16, 2013 on Felesteen.ps, a website affiliated with Hamas, Hamas Refugee Affairs Department head Dr 'Issam 'Adwan argued that Hamas had the right to attack Israeli embassies and interests as well as senior Israeli officials anywhere in the world. He added that the resistance is also entitled to harm the interests of Israel's allies, headed by the U.S.​

This is the axiom: The Cause JUSTIFIES the MEANS. (Terrorist supported by Senior HAMAS Official.)

Over the years, Hamas has moved away from it's terrorist roots.

Denying democratic rights to Hamas

Unlike some other militant factions such as Islamic Jihad, Hamas has shown an awareness of present day regional and global realities by its willingness to terminate its boycott of political institutions under conditions of alien occupation. It regards abandonment of armed struggle as premature, but implicit in its bid for a share of political power is the promise of accepting Israel’s right to exist within its pre-1967 borders.

You used to say the same thing about Fatah and now you two are butt-buddy's.

There is a strong case to be made for some of the claims and complaints behind the Palestinian movement. But their methodology and the strategy of in pursuit of these cause of actions is both illegal and morally repugnant.

It was a UN Plan, not an Israeli/Jewish Plan. The establishment of the Jewish State followed the protocols outlined in the UN Plan.

No you didn't. You just stood up one day and declared yourself a state.

And you didn't follow UN protocals. Because one of them was the caveat that you could create the state of Israel, as long as you respected the inherent rights of the indigenous population of non-jews.

“His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”

- Arthur James Balfour [Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs]

But you didn't do that, did ya?

Something is wrong with your figures. Under the Plan, About 77.1% of the original Mandate for Palestine was apportioned to form an Arab State ultimately called the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. That left about 23% remaining. Of that, about 12.6% was apportioned to the Jewish State with the remaining 10.3% going to the new Arab State. (77.1%+12.6%+10.3%=100%) That means that over 88% of the land apportionment went to the Arabs in one form or another. If you compare just the New Arab State to the Jewish State (12.6% to 10.3%) you'll find that works out to about 55% to 45% (not your 2/3's or 66%).

You own 85% of the land and you're asked to give up 50% of that. That's some deal.

In the whole of Palestine, Arabs owned 85 percent of the land, while Jews owned less than 7 percent, which remained the case up until the time of Israel’s creation.

Yet, despite these facts, the U.N. partition recommendation had called for more than half of the land of Palestine to be given to the Zionists for their “Jewish State”. The truth is that no Arab could be reasonably expected to accept such an unjust proposal.

I don't care how you add up the numbers, the Pals got fucked!

However, this apportionment was overtaken by the events of 1948-49 War and the accumulated impact (lost ground as a result of foreign Arab Army intervention and HoAP insurrection) of the two subsequent wars.

You cannot hold onto land siezed in a war!

How many times do I have to tell you fuckers before this sinks in?

You know as well as I know that the area in question was a very, very small area, identified by Counter Rocket, Artillery, and Mortar (C-RAM) data and Human Intelligence (HUMINT) reports as the point of origin for rocket fire. The City of Gaza was not totally destroyed. It was property used as cover and concealment for hostile rocket launchings.

Bulldozing down entire neighborhoods is not a small area.

AND, you know that such limited destruction was fully justified and legal under the Geneva Convention.

Bullshit! You bombed hospitals. You shot at first responders. You bombed their public utilities. Those are not military necessity targets.

Don't be such a Drama Queen. They launched rockets indiscriminately and the received the traditional counter-strike.

You don't know what it's like living under an occupation from a foreign force. So "most respectfully", shove that drama queen bullshit up your ass!

Most Respectfully

So you "most respectfully" called me a "cry baby" and a "drama queen"? I get it. You have my permission to call me anything you want.

 

[Hossfly]

So --- is that the extent of it? One military operation (Operation Cast Lead) in late 2008 and early 2009! That --- in response to 2800 rocket and mortars fired into Israel in the year 2008?

They waited 37 years before they started lobbing rockets your way.

I think you owe them a "thank you" for their patience.

Perhaps, Rocco, Loinboy should commiserate with his newfound friends and tell them he is sorry that they aren't able to send in suicide bombers any more and have to resort to rockets. Of course, Loinboy had no problem with the suicide bombers even though they also took out Muslims and Christians too. What does he care as long as some Jews were taken out also. Since the Jews are not involved, he doesn't even care that his fellow believerss are taken out in the Muslim world.

 

[Hossfly]

This is what we call the "cry baby defense."

Using that logic, when do you count Palestinian Terrorism starting? Maybe with the admission made by HAMAS and the coming of the martyr Izz ad-din al-Qassam (1920/1930's). Maybe it starts with the Munich Olympics massacre (1972). Maybe with the murders of Chaim Weizman and David Bizi (1993).

You can start the clock anywhere. But that doesn't get us any closer to to a solution.

Don't talk to me about cry baby's! You fuckers whine like banshees whenever anyone directs criticism you way, no matter how valid it is.

As far as the violence goes, if you wanna go down that road, there was never any recorded incidents of major violence in that area, until the zionists showed up.

You're the cause of it all! And you refuse to accept responsibility for anything you do.

Rocco, I think you realize that many of us feel that you must have done a top notch job when you were in military intelligence, and it is quite admirable all the research you have put into the subject of the Israel/Palestine conflict from respectable sources. However, you will get people like Loinboy and his foul mouth disagreeing with anything you have to say because he doesn't want to hear the truth. With all his babbling about the "evil Jews/Israelis," I can just imagine the names he and his friends sitting at his favorite bar in Long Beach call the Arabs. No one is claiming the Israel is a perfect country since no country in the world is perfect, but Loinboy and his fellow travelers have no interest in what is happening in the rest of the Middle East as well as the entire Muslim world because what is happening in that region doesn't involved the Jews.

 

[Billo_Really]

Rocco, I think you realize that many of us feel that you must have done a top notch job when you were in military intelligence, and it is quite admirable all the research you have put into the subject of the Israel/Palestine conflict from respectable sources. .

I will give him credit in as much as he walks his talk and makes an honest effort to debate an issue the way it's normally done (making a claim, then backing it up with corroborative citations and addressing specific opposing points). The rest of you fuckers are a bunch of trolls thinking you can get away with playing word games.

However, you will get people like Loinboy and his foul mouth disagreeing with anything you have to say because he doesn't want to hear the truth.

Now you're just making shit up.

With all his babbling about the "evil Jews/Israelis,".

No, it's just Israeli's (and zionists).

I can just imagine the names he and his friends sitting at his favorite bar in Long Beach call the Arabs. .

I told you before, people don't talk politics in bars, they talk sports.

No one is claiming the Israel is a perfect country since no country in the world is perfect, .

Stop right there! Name 3 things that is wrong with Israel.

but Loinboy.

Loinboy's dead! You're talking to me now!

and his fellow travelers have no interest in what is happening in the rest of the Middle East as well as the entire Muslim world...

Because that's not the topic of the OP.

because what is happening in that region doesn't involved the Jews.

And neither does this thread or any of my posts. If you can recognize other conflicts in the muslim world doesn't involve jews, WTF do you keep dumping them into my arguments? I've told you repeatedly this has nothing to do with Judaism, but you keep trying to interject it into the debate.

 

[Billo_Really]

Perhaps, Rocco, Loinboy should commiserate with his newfound friends and tell them he is sorry that they aren't able to send in suicide bombers any more and have to resort to rockets. Of course, Loinboy had no problem with the suicide bombers even though they also took out Muslims and Christians too. What does he care as long as some Jews were taken out also. Since the Jews are not involved, he doesn't even care that his fellow believerss are taken out in the Muslim world.

There you go, right on time, trying to hijack the thread into another topic.

 

[Hossfly]

Perhaps, Rocco, Loinboy should commiserate with his newfound friends and tell them he is sorry that they aren't able to send in suicide bombers any more and have to resort to rockets. Of course, Loinboy had no problem with the suicide bombers even though they also took out Muslims and Christians too. What does he care as long as some Jews were taken out also. Since the Jews are not involved, he doesn't even care that his fellow believerss are taken out in the Muslim world.

There you go, right on time, trying to hijack the thread into another topic.

Really??? I guess you don't connect the constant shooting of the rockets with their inability to send in suicide bombers.

 

[Hossfly]

Rocco, I think you realize that many of us feel that you must have done a top notch job when you were in military intelligence, and it is quite admirable all the research you have put into the subject of the Israel/Palestine conflict from respectable sources. .

I will give him credit in as much as he walks his talk and makes an honest effort to debate an issue the way it's normally done (making a claim, then backing it up with corroborative citations and addressing specific opposing points). The rest of you fuckers are a bunch of trolls thinking you can get away with playing word games.

However, you will get people like Loinboy and his foul mouth disagreeing with anything you have to say because he doesn't want to hear the truth.

Now you're just making shit up.

No, it's just Israeli's (and zionists).

I told you before, people don't talk politics in bars, they talk sports.


Stop right there! Name 3 things that is wrong with Israel.


Loinboy's dead! You're talking to me now!

and his fellow travelers have no interest in what is happening in the rest of the Middle East as well as the entire Muslim world...

Because that's not the topic of the OP.

because what is happening in that region doesn't involved the Jews.

And neither does this thread or any of my posts. If you can recognize other conflicts in the muslim world doesn't involve jews, WTF do you keep dumping them into my arguments? I've told you repeatedly this has nothing to do with Judaism, but you keep trying to interject it into the debate.

Loinboy really thinks he is fooling the readers that he really, really cares about the Arabs and those evil Zionists (which of course means most Jews and millions and millions of Christians and, horror of horrors, even some Hindus and Ahmadi Muslims)) are not doing them right.. Whatever name you go under, Loinboy, you still can't seem to restrain yourself from throwing out your vulgarities. It's like a trademark of yours. Have another drink. It might make you feel more mellow.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Don't talk to me about cry baby's! You fuckers whine like banshees whenever anyone directs criticism you way, no matter how valid it is..."

What the hell is wrong with you?

Rocco is quite probably in the upper 10% of all posters on USMB, when it comes to respectful interaction with his colleagues.

You seem to be rapidly headed towards the bottom 10% in that context.

Lighten-the-fuck-up, 'K?