Global Warming Actually Still Accelerating - no "lull"

[PMZ]

OK s0n....you have now established yourself as the most naïve mofu on the forum!!! Take a bow!!!

OK, nitwit....you have long since established yourself as the most ignorant, retarded, deceptive, brainwashed troll on the forum!!! Pull your head out of your ass so you can take a bow!!!

I take them daily on here s0n......at the expense of you and all the other climate crusader nutters and without all the multitude of personal insults so typical of the progressives!! But for we deniers....its evidence of one thing: we're winning!! The climate crusaders? Not so much. The lots of you are akin to being like vampire slayers trying to convince the world that we better get them by daylight!! Nobody is caring

The funniest post of the day.

Winning what?

How much is being invested today to expand capacity for fossil fuel extraction, transport, refining, or use?

So, exactly what are you winning? The bullshit wars?

 

[PMZ]

How accurate were thermometers 100, 150 years ago?

AGW Cult is very culty

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

The denier position is determined by political hacks and entertainers. What they wish was true.

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

You're right. Here's one now.

Looks like a Category 6.

I don't know. Looks like an educated, rational, accomplished version of Rush, to me.

 

[jon_berzerk]

The 2014 winter will most likely answer all questions regarding Global Warming. we all just have to wait till March to see how bad the winter was.

or may

we had over 8 inches of global warming on May 1st

 

[Abraham3]

The 2014 winter will most likely answer all questions regarding Global Warming. we all just have to wait till March to see how bad the winter was.

or may

we had over 8 inches of global warming on May 1st

Why should 2014 hold all the answers? There is no revelation on the way. There is only the continuous processes of climatic evolution. The world will change as the laws of physics and the algebraic sum of all external forcings say it will change.

 

[Abraham3]

How accurate were thermometers 100, 150 years ago?

Not bad. I think even 150 years ago, they knew how to calibrate them. The phase change points of water have not changed. And besides, many of those thermometers are still in existence and can be tested.

Besides which, as I've pointed out to you before, unless you think they were all biased in the same direction, the question is irrelevant.

IS that what you think Frank? Did all the old thermometer read low? Do all new thermometers read high? All of them Frank?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

How accurate were thermometers 100, 150 years ago?

AGW Cult is very culty

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

The denier position is determined by political hacks and entertainers. What they wish was true.

Odd that all those qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources still can't show us one single lab experiment showing how a 200PPM change in CO2 will raise temperature

Maybe their resources should be more in line with the validity of their theory

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

The denier position is determined by political hacks and entertainers. What they wish was true.

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

You're right. Here's one now.

/Al_Gore_

There are highly educated scientists who do research on the climate and mankind's influence on it.....

....and then there are those who communicate those scientific findings to the public....

....Al Gore is one of the latter....

....the fact that you are incapable of distinguishing between the two is just another symptom of your severe retardation, Toad.

In his Peer reviewed Bible, "Earth in the Balance", Al Gore said water vapor was the main driver of climate change

 

[jon_berzerk]

How accurate were thermometers 100, 150 years ago?

AGW Cult is very culty

one also must consider how much the environment changed

over the past one hundred years

from a grassy area to a parking lot for example

 

[PMZ]

How accurate were thermometers 100, 150 years ago?

AGW Cult is very culty

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

The denier position is determined by political hacks and entertainers. What they wish was true.

Odd that all those qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources still can't show us one single lab experiment showing how a 200PPM change in CO2 will raise temperature

Maybe their resources should be more in line with the validity of their theory

They can absolutely demonstrate what they've proven to their colleagues. That’s what models are for. They are the data, mathematically expressed theories, assumptions, limitations, uncertainties, steady state, dynamics, etc that represent the latest science.

Why should they explain it to those whose education and experience preclude them from understanding it?

The obligation is not on them but on you.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

The denier position is determined by political hacks and entertainers. What they wish was true.

Odd that all those qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources still can't show us one single lab experiment showing how a 200PPM change in CO2 will raise temperature

Maybe their resources should be more in line with the validity of their theory

They can absolutely demonstrate what they've proven to their colleagues. That’s what models are for. They are the data, mathematically expressed theories, assumptions, limitations, uncertainties, steady state, dynamics, etc that represent the latest science.

Why should they explain it to those whose education and experience preclude them from understanding it?

The obligation is not on them but on you.

Why should they explain it to those whose education and experience preclude them from understanding it?

Because then you wouldn't sound so silly when you post here.

 

[PMZ]

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

You're right. Here's one now.

/Al_Gore_

There are highly educated scientists who do research on the climate and mankind's influence on it.....

....and then there are those who communicate those scientific findings to the public....

....Al Gore is one of the latter....

....the fact that you are incapable of distinguishing between the two is just another symptom of your severe retardation, Toad.

In his Peer reviewed Bible, "Earth in the Balance", Al Gore said water vapor was the main driver of climate change

I believe that he said water vapor is the main driver of global warming. Which it is. However it's not what's changing. CO2 is.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

The denier position is determined by political hacks and entertainers. What they wish was true.

Odd that all those qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources still can't show us one single lab experiment showing how a 200PPM change in CO2 will raise temperature

Maybe their resources should be more in line with the validity of their theory

They can absolutely demonstrate what they've proven to their colleagues. That’s what models are for. They are the data, mathematically expressed theories, assumptions, limitations, uncertainties, steady state, dynamics, etc that represent the latest science.

Why should they explain it to those whose education and experience preclude them from understanding it?

The obligation is not on them but on you.

Is English not your first language?

I asked for experimental evidence, not jackoff computer models.

We can create a mini-black hole in a lab, how hard it is to add an additional 200PPM of CO2 to a test tank?

 

[PMZ]

Odd that all those qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources still can't show us one single lab experiment showing how a 200PPM change in CO2 will raise temperature

Maybe their resources should be more in line with the validity of their theory

They can absolutely demonstrate what they've proven to their colleagues. That’s what models are for. They are the data, mathematically expressed theories, assumptions, limitations, uncertainties, steady state, dynamics, etc that represent the latest science.

Why should they explain it to those whose education and experience preclude them from understanding it?

The obligation is not on them but on you.

Why should they explain it to those whose education and experience preclude them from understanding it?

Because then you wouldn't sound so silly when you post here.

All people of science sound silly to politicians who are not used to the concepts of facts and reality. I read you yammering on about what you wish was true and think why does he think that anybody cares what he wants? His fantasies are irrelevent.

 

[PMZ]

Odd that all those qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources still can't show us one single lab experiment showing how a 200PPM change in CO2 will raise temperature

Maybe their resources should be more in line with the validity of their theory

They can absolutely demonstrate what they've proven to their colleagues. That’s what models are for. They are the data, mathematically expressed theories, assumptions, limitations, uncertainties, steady state, dynamics, etc that represent the latest science.

Why should they explain it to those whose education and experience preclude them from understanding it?

The obligation is not on them but on you.

Is English not your first language?

I asked for experimental evidence, not jackoff computer models.

We can create a mini-black hole in a lab, how hard it is to add an additional 200PPM of CO2 to a test tank?

If you are not capable of understanding experimental evidence why should anybody bother to give it to you? The evidence has been around and available for years. But it takes science knowledge to understand it. Your problem comes from your inability to understand it. That's nobody's problem but yours. Fix it and come back and we can talk.

You're a classic Dunning Kruger.

 

[RollingThunder]

How accurate were thermometers 100, 150 years ago?

AGW Cult is very culty

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

The denier position is determined by political hacks and entertainers. What they wish was true.

Odd that all those qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources still can't show us one single lab experiment showing how a 200PPM change in CO2 will raise temperature

Maybe their resources should be more in line with the validity of their theory

What is really "odd", CrazyFruitcake, is that you keep making these silly bogus claims that are based only on your own ignorance and gullibility. There is, in fact, a great deal of experimental evidence that demonstrates and verifies the existence of the CO2 greenhouse effect.

Every paper cited here has an embedded link to the source but you will have to go to the site linked in the title below to find those links. I'm not going to spend a lot of time copying them into this post.

Papers on laboratory measurements of CO2 absorption properties

This is a list of papers on laboratory measurements of the absorption properties of carbon dioxide. In the context of these paperlists this is a difficult subject because only few of the papers are freely available online, so we have to settle on abstracts only (of course, interested reader can purchase the full texts for the papers from the linked abstract pages). However, I don’t think that matters that much because the main point of this list really is to show that the basic research on the subject exists. The list is not complete, and will most likely be updated in the future in order to make it more thorough and more representative.

UPDATE (September 23, 2012): Burch & Gryvnak (1966) added.
UPDATE (February 6, 2010): Miller & Watts (1984) added.
UPDATE (July 25, 2010): I modified the introduction paragraph a little to reflect the current content of the list. The old text was a little outdated.
UPDATE (June 22, 2010): Lecher & Pernter (1881) added.
UPDATE (March 31, 2010): Tubbs & Williams (1972), Rubens & Aschkinass (1898) and Ångström (1900) added.
UPDATE (March 6, 2010): Barker (1922) added.
UPDATE (November 19, 2009): Predoi-Cross et al. (2007) added.
UPDATE (September 25, 2009): Miller & Brown (2004) added, thanks to John Cook for bringing it to my attention (see the discussion section below).

Spectroscopic database of CO2 line parameters: 4300–7000 cm−1 – Toth et al. (2008) “A new spectroscopic database for carbon dioxide in the near infrared is presented to support remote sensing of the terrestrial planets (Mars, Venus and the Earth). The compilation contains over 28,500 transitions of 210 bands from 4300 to 7000 cm−1…”

Line shape parameters measurement and computations for self-broadened carbon dioxide transitions in the 30012 ← 00001 and 30013 ← 00001 bands, line mixing, and speed dependence – Predoi-Cross et al. (2007) “Transitions of pure carbon dioxide have been measured using a Fourier transform spectrometer in the 30012 ← 00001 and 30013 ← 00001 vibrational bands. The room temperature spectra, recorded at a resolution of 0.008 cm−1, were analyzed using the Voigt model and a Speed Dependent Voigt line shape model that includes a pressure dependent narrowing parameter. Intensities, self-induced pressure broadening, shifts, and weak line mixing coefficients are determined. The results obtained are consistent with other studies in addition to the theoretically calculated values.” [Full text]

Spectroscopic challenges for high accuracy retrievals of atmospheric CO2 and the Orbiting Carbon Observatory (OCO) experiment – Miller et al. (2005) “The space-based Orbiting Carbon Observatory (OCO) mission will achieve global measurements needed to distinguish spatial and temporal gradients in the CO2 column. Scheduled by NASA to launch in 2008, the instrument will obtain averaged dry air mole fraction (XCO2) with a precision of 1 part per million (0.3%) in order to quantify the variation of CO2 sources and sinks and to improve future climate forecasts. Retrievals of XCO2 from ground-based measurements require even higher precisions to validate the satellite data and link them accurately and without bias to the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) standard for atmospheric CO2 observations. These retrievals will require CO2 spectroscopic parameters with unprecedented accuracy. Here we present the experimental and data analysis methods implemented in laboratory studies in order to achieve this challenging goal.”

Near infrared spectroscopy of carbon dioxide I. 16O12C16O line positions – Miller & Brown (2004) “High-resolution near-infrared (4000–9000 cm-1) spectra of carbon dioxide have been recorded using the McMath–Pierce Fourier transform spectrometer at the Kitt Peak National Solar Observatory. Some 2500 observed positions have been used to determine spectroscopic constants for 53 different vibrational states of the 16O12C16O isotopologue, including eight vibrational states for which laboratory spectra have not previously been reported. … This work reduces CO2 near-infrared line position uncertainties by a factor of 10 or more compared to the 2000 HITRAN line list, which has not been modified since the comprehensive work of Rothman et al. [J. Quant. Spectrosc. Rad. Transfer 48 (1992) 537].” [Full text]

Spectra calculations in central and wing regions of CO2 IR bands between 10 and 20 μm. I: model and laboratory measurements – Niro et al. (2004) “Temperature (200–300 K) and pressure (70–200 atm) dependent laboratory measurements of infrared transmission by CO2–N2 mixtures have been made. From these experiments the absorption coefficient is reconstructed, over a range of several orders of magnitude, between 600 and 1000 cm−1.”

Collisional effects on spectral line-shapes – Boulet (2004) “The growing concern of mankind for the understanding and preserving of its environment has stimulated great interest for the study of planetary atmospheres and, first of all, for that of the Earth. Onboard spectrometers now provide more and more precise information on the transmission and emission of radiation by these atmospheres. Its treatment by ‘retrieval’ technics, in order to extract vertical profiles (pressure, temperature, volume mixing ratios) requires precise modeling of infrared absorption spectra. Within this framework, accounting for the influence of pressure on the absorption shape is crucial. These effects of inter-molecular collisions between the optically active species and the ‘perturbers’ are complex and of various types depending mostly on the density of perturbers. The present paper attempts to review and illustrate, through a few examples, the state of the art in this field.”

On far-wing Raman profiles by CO2 – Benech et al. (2002) “Despite the excellent agreement observed in N2 here, a substantial inconsistency between theory and experiment was found in the wing of the spectrum. Although the influence of other missing processes or neighboring bands cannot be totally excluded, our findings rather suggest that highly anisotropic perturbers, such as CO2, are improperly described when they are handled as point-like molecules, a cornerstone hypothesis in the approach employed.”

Collision-induced scattering in CO2 gas – Teboul et al. (1995) “Carbon-dioxide gas rototranslational scattering has been measured at 294.5 K in the frequency range 10–1000 cm−1 at 23 amagat. The depolarization ratio of scattered intensities in the frequency range 10–1000 cm−1 is recorded. The theoretical and experimental spectra in the frequency range 10–470 cm−1 are compared.”

The HITRAN database: 1986 edition – Rothman et al. (1987) “A description and summary of the latest edition of the AFGL HITRAN molecular absorption parameters database are presented. This new database combines the information for the seven principal atmospheric absorbers and twenty-one additional molecular species previously contained on the AFGL atmospheric absorption line parameter compilation and on the trace gas compilation.”

Rotational structure in the infrared spectra of carbon dioxide and nitrous oxide dimers – Miller & Watts (1984) “High-resolution infrared predissociation spectra have been measured for dilute mixtures of CO2 and N2O in helium. Rotational fine structure is clearly resolved for both (CO2)2 and (N2O)2, the linewidths being instrument-limited. This establishes that predissociation lifetimes are longer than approximately 50 ns.”

Broadening of Infrared Absorption Lines at Reduced Temperatures: Carbon Dioxide – Tubbs & Williams (1972) “An evacuated high-resolution Czerny-Turner spectrograph, which is described in this paper, has been used to determine the strengths S and self-broadening parameters γ0 for lines in the R branch of the ν3 fundamental of 12C16O2 at 298 and at 207 K. The values of γ0 at 207 K are greater than those to be expected on the basis of a fixed collision cross section σ.”

Investigation of the Absorption of Infrared Radiation by Atmospheric Gases – Burch et al. (1970) “From spectral transmittance curves of very large samples of CO2 we have determined coefficients for intrinsic absorption and pressure-induced absorption from approximately 1130/cm to 1835/cm.”

Absorption of Infrared Radiant Energy by CO2 and H2O. IV. Shapes of Collision-Broadened CO2 Lines – Burch et al. (1969) “The shapes of the extreme wings of self-broadened CO2 lines have been investigated in three spectral regions near 7000, 3800, and 2400 cm−1. … New information has been obtained about the shapes of self-broadened CO2 lines as well as CO2 lines broadened by N2, O2, Ar, He, and H2.”

High-Temperature Spectral Emissivities and Total Intensities of the 15-µ Band System of CO2 – Ludwig et al. (1966) “Spectral-emissivity measurements of the 15-µ band of CO2 were made in the temperature range from 1000° to 2300°K.”

Laboratory investigation of the absorption and emission of infrared radiation – Burch & Gryvnak (1966) “Extensive measurements of the absorption by H2O and CO2 have been made in the region from 0·6 to 5·5 microm. Two different multiple-pass absorption cells provided path lengths from 2 to 933 m, and sample pressures were varied from a few μHg to 15 atm. Approximately thirty new CO2 bands were observed and identified, and the strengths of the important bands determined. The H2O data provide enough information for the determination of the strengths and widths of several hundred of the more important lines. The wings of CO2absorption lines were found to be sub-Lorentzian, with the shapes depending on temperature, broadening gas, and wavelength in ways which cannot be explained by present theories. The absorption by H2O and CO2 samples at temperatures up to 1800°K has been studied from 1 to 5 microm. The transmission of radiation from hot CO2 through cold CO2 and from hot H2O through cold H2O has been investigated to determine the effect of the coincidence of emission lines with absorption lines.” Darrell E. Burch, David A. Gryvnak, Journal of Quantitative Spectroscopy and Radiative Transfer, Volume 6, Issue 3, May–June 1966, Pages 229–240, http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0022-4073(66)90072-0.

Line shape in the wing beyond the band head of the 4·3 μ band of CO2 – Winters et al. (1964) “Quantitative absorpance measurements have been made in pure CO2 and mixtures of CO2 with N2 and O2 in a 10 m White Perkin-Elmer cell. With absorbing paths up to 50 m-atm, results have been obtained from the band head at 2397 cm−1 to 2575 cm−1.”

Emissivity of Carbon Dioxide at 4.3 µ – Davies (1964) “The emissivity of carbon dioxide has been measured for temperatures from 1500° to 3000°K over the wavelength range from 4.40 to 5.30 µ.”

Absorption Line Broadening in the Infrared – Burch et al. (1962) “The effects of various gases on the absorption bands of nitrous oxide, carbon monoxide, methane, carbon dioxide, and water vapor have been investigated.”

Total Absorptance of Carbon Dioxide in the Infrared – Burch et al. (1962) “Total absorptance… has been determined as a function of absorber concentration w and equivalent pressure Pe for the major infrared absorption bands of carbon dioxide with centers at 3716, 3609, 2350, 1064, and 961 cm−1.”

Rotation-Vibration Spectra of Diatomic and Simple Polyatomic Molecules with Long Absorbing Paths – Herzberg & Herzberg (1953) “The spectrum of CO2 in the photographic infrared has been studied with absorbing paths up to 5500 m. Thirteen absorption bands were found of which eleven have been analyzed in detail.”

The Infrared Absorption Spectrum of Carbon Dioxide – Martin & Barker (1932) “The complete infrared spectrum of CO2 may consistently be explained in terms of a linear symmetrical model, making use of the selection rules developed by Dennison and the resonance interaction introduced by Fermi. The inactive fundamental ν1 appears only in combination bands, but ν2 at 15μ and ν3 at 4.3μ absorb intensely.”

Carbon Dioxide Absorption in the Near Infra-Red – Barker (1922) “Infra-red absorption bands of CO2 at 2.7 and 4.3 μ. – New absorption curves have been obtained, using a special prism-grating double spectrometer of higher resolution (Figs. 1-3). The 2.7 μ region, heretofore considered to be a doublet, proves to be a pair of doublets, with centers at approximately 2.694 μ and 2.767 μ. The 4.3 μ band appears as a single doublet with center at 4.253 μ. The frequency difference between maxima is nearly the same for each of the three doublets, and equal to 4.5 x 1011. Complete resolution of the band series was not effected, even though the slit included only 12 A for the 2.7 μ region, but there is evidently a complicated structure, with a “head” in each case on the side of shorter wave-lengths. The existence of this head for the 4.3 μ band is also indicated by a comparison with the emission spectrum from a bunsen flame, and the difference in wave-length of the maxima of emission and absorption is explained as a temperature effect similar to that observed with other doublets.” [For free full text, click PDF or GIF links in the linked abstract page]

Ueber die Bedeutung des Wasserdampfes und der Kohlensäure bei der Absorption der Erdatmosphäre – Ångström (1900)

Observations on the Absorption and Emission of Aqueous Vapor and Carbon Dioxide in the Infra-Red Spectrum – Rubens & Aschkinass (1898) “Our experiments carried out as described above on the absorption spectrum carbon dioxide very soon showed that we were dealing with a single absorption band whose maximum lies near λ = 14.7 μ. … The whole region of absorption is limited to the interval from 12.5 μ to 16 μ, with the maximum at 14.7 μ.” [For free full text, click PDF or GIF links in the linked abstract page]

On the absorption of dark heat-rays by gases and vapours – Lecher & Pernter (1881) Svante Arrhenius wrote in his famous 1897 paper: “Tyndall held the opinion that the water-vapour has the greatest influence, whilst other authors, for instance Lecher and Pernter, are inclined to think that the carbonic acid plays the more important part.”.

The Bakerian Lecture – On the Absorption and Radiation of Heat by Gases and Vapours, and on the Physical Connexion of Radiation, Absorption, and Conduction – Tyndall (1861) 150 years ago John Tyndall already showed that carbon dioxide absorbs infrared radiation. [Full text] [Wikipedia: John Tyndall]

Closely related

The HITRAN Database – The laboratory work results on the absorption properties of carbon dioxide (and many other molecules) is contained in this database.

 

[flacaltenn]

ENSO runs on a pseudo-cycle. This is only a backcast. No one has yet figured out how to do long range ENSO forecasts. And I see NO reduction in the significance of CO2 in the atmosphere. AGW is simply overlain on a complex system of significant natural variability. The long term trend is still upward at an accelerating pace.

I think its the PDO that they're talking about....
1915-1940= warm phase
1940-1975= cold phase
1975-2000= warm phase
2000-2030=cold phase

What happens is during a
Warm phase the heat is near the atmosphere
but during the cold phase it is pushed deeper(700+ meters) into the ocean...AWAY from the atmosphere.

Remember...This movement of heat doesn't add or subject from the system. Either does a enso cycle.

By 2030-2070 we will likely see the global temp catch up with where it was suppose to be. A big shock.

Research led by Gerald Meehl has similarly focused on the importance of the Pacific Ocean in short-term global surface temperature changes. His climate model predicts that there will be decades when surface temperature changes are relatively flat because more heat is transferred to the deep oceans, precisely as we have observed over the past decade. Meehl discussed the Kosaka & Xie study with Carbon Brief,


"This paper basically confirms, with a novel methodology, what we originally documented in our Nature Climate Change paper in 2011 and followed up with in our Journal of Climate paper ... We went beyond [the new paper] to show that when the tropical Pacific was cool for a decade ... more heat is mixed into the deeper ocean, something the new paper doesn't address."

This period is acting like 1940-1975....

Don't think it's been established what role PDO has on "pushing heat deeper".. But yes -- your observation about what remains when you remove it is largely correct. Except that if PDO didn't exist -- the heat would REMAIN IN PLAY as part of the surface exchange with the atmos.. If indeed it is "pumping heat deeper" during any part of its' phase, it would need to RETRIEVE the same heat stored to produce its' warm phase to be (as you described) energy neutral.

If on the other hand, it stores during a cold phase and RE-WARMS from incident radiation during a warm phase (does not retrieve stored heat) --- then it is a NEGATIVE feedback on surface warming calculations. Essentially another heat sink in the analysis of surface temps that REMOVES heat energy from the interchange.

I think it HIGHLY unlikely that this "heat pump" works in both directions.. I could believe that it might assist in moving heat deeper, but RETRIEVING IT back to the surface sounds like an awfully sketchy proposition since "stored heat" (of the BTK study) is in EXTREMELY frigid water..

Question is --- why wasn't this effect removed PREVIOUSLY ?? It certainly wasn't apparent as an additive effect in any projected models that I saw..

What REMAINS of the global temp rise chart could still be combinations of other CYCLICAL effects. You can get a linear ramp from a simple SUM of multiple "sine waves". Only need 2 or 3 to build a ramp-like signal. Wouldn't expect mere climate scientists to look for sine waves when they see a ramp tho.. But that's the math behind breaking down simple looking signals and functions..

What do ya get for instance when you add BOTH AMO and PDO together over the past 80 or 100 years? Add that to the 22 yr solar cycle... If they are all drifting in time with respect to each other --- PERIODICALLY --- they can combine to create VERY linear looking signals.

The idea that we're looking for a SINGLE LINEAR FORCING --- isn't the only thesis in the game..

This is why MULTI-DISCIPLINARY scientific inquiry is so important. Because alternate views and ideas and suggestions should ALWAYS be encouraged.. No ONE discipline does good science in isolation..

 

[itfitzme]

How accurate were thermometers 100, 150 years ago?

AGW Cult is very culty

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

The denier position is determined by political hacks and entertainers. What they wish was true.

Odd that all those qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources still can't show us one single lab experiment showing how a 200PPM change in CO2 will raise temperature

Maybe their resources should be more in line with the validity of their theory

Apparently, you haven't been paying attention.

 

[itfitzme]

How accurate were thermometers 100, 150 years ago?

AGW Cult is very culty

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

The denier position is determined by political hacks and entertainers. What they wish was true.

Odd that all those qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources still can't show us one single lab experiment showing how a 200PPM change in CO2 will raise temperature

Maybe their resources should be more in line with the validity of their theory

You can do it yourself. Here is what you should do. This summer, purchase 500 lbs of dry ice. Seal off all the openings to your car, air vents, door jams, windows, etc. Put the ice in the back seat of your car, park in the sun, and close the doors and windows. Now wait for a couple of hours and see how hot your car gets.

 

[PMZ]

ENSO runs on a pseudo-cycle. This is only a backcast. No one has yet figured out how to do long range ENSO forecasts. And I see NO reduction in the significance of CO2 in the atmosphere. AGW is simply overlain on a complex system of significant natural variability. The long term trend is still upward at an accelerating pace.

I think its the PDO that they're talking about....
1915-1940= warm phase
1940-1975= cold phase
1975-2000= warm phase
2000-2030=cold phase

What happens is during a
Warm phase the heat is near the atmosphere
but during the cold phase it is pushed deeper(700+ meters) into the ocean...AWAY from the atmosphere.

Remember...This movement of heat doesn't add or subject from the system. Either does a enso cycle.

By 2030-2070 we will likely see the global temp catch up with where it was suppose to be. A big shock.

Research led by Gerald Meehl has similarly focused on the importance of the Pacific Ocean in short-term global surface temperature changes. His climate model predicts that there will be decades when surface temperature changes are relatively flat because more heat is transferred to the deep oceans, precisely as we have observed over the past decade. Meehl discussed the Kosaka & Xie study with Carbon Brief,


"This paper basically confirms, with a novel methodology, what we originally documented in our Nature Climate Change paper in 2011 and followed up with in our Journal of Climate paper ... We went beyond [the new paper] to show that when the tropical Pacific was cool for a decade ... more heat is mixed into the deeper ocean, something the new paper doesn't address."

This period is acting like 1940-1975....

Don't think it's been established what role PDO has on "pushing heat deeper".. But yes -- your observation about what remains when you remove it is largely correct. Except that if PDO didn't exist -- the heat would REMAIN IN PLAY as part of the surface exchange with the atmos.. If indeed it is "pumping heat deeper" during any part of its' phase, it would need to RETRIEVE the same heat stored to produce its' warm phase to be (as you described) energy neutral.

If on the other hand, it stores during a cold phase and RE-WARMS from incident radiation during a warm phase (does not retrieve stored heat) --- then it is a NEGATIVE feedback on surface warming calculations. Essentially another heat sink in the analysis of surface temps that REMOVES heat energy from the interchange.

I think it HIGHLY unlikely that this "heat pump" works in both directions.. I could believe that it might assist in moving heat deeper, but RETRIEVING IT back to the surface sounds like an awfully sketchy proposition since "stored heat" (of the BTK study) is in EXTREMELY frigid water..

Question is --- why wasn't this effect removed PREVIOUSLY ?? It certainly wasn't apparent as an additive effect in any projected models that I saw..

What REMAINS of the global temp rise chart could still be combinations of other CYCLICAL effects. You can get a linear ramp from a simple SUM of multiple "sine waves". Only need 2 or 3 to build a ramp-like signal. Wouldn't expect mere climate scientists to look for sine waves when they see a ramp tho.. But that's the math behind breaking down simple looking signals and functions..

What do ya get for instance when you add BOTH AMO and PDO together over the past 80 or 100 years? Add that to the 22 yr solar cycle... If they are all drifting in time with respect to each other --- PERIODICALLY --- they can combine to create VERY linear looking signals.

The idea that we're looking for a SINGLE LINEAR FORCING --- isn't the only thesis in the game..

This is why MULTI-DISCIPLINARY scientific inquiry is so important. Because alternate views and ideas and suggestions should ALWAYS be encouraged.. No ONE discipline does good science in isolation..

Some of the basic physics that is apparently beyond you is pretty simple. A body in space. An absorber and radiator. Energy balance. No exceptions.

Combined with an increasing concentration of longwave absorbing atmospheric gasses.

If you knew just a little physics, you'd know that global warming is the only possible result. And if you were the IPCC you'd know how much climactic warming at current and expected future concentrations.

But, you, apparently, can't handle even those basics.

Why would you think that you stand a chance on the complex stuff?

 

[PMZ]

The AGW position is determined by qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources.

The denier position is determined by political hacks and entertainers. What they wish was true.

Odd that all those qualified scientists with virtually unlimited capabilities and resources still can't show us one single lab experiment showing how a 200PPM change in CO2 will raise temperature

Maybe their resources should be more in line with the validity of their theory

What is really "odd", CrazyFruitcake, is that you keep making these silly bogus claims that are based only on your own ignorance and gullibility. There is, in fact, a great deal of experimental evidence that demonstrates and verifies the existence of the CO2 greenhouse effect.

Every paper cited here has an embedded link to the source but you will have to go to the site linked in the title below to find those links. I'm not going to spend a lot of time copying them into this post.

Papers on laboratory measurements of CO2 absorption properties

This is a list of papers on laboratory measurements of the absorption properties of carbon dioxide. In the context of these paperlists this is a difficult subject because only few of the papers are freely available online, so we have to settle on abstracts only (of course, interested reader can purchase the full texts for the papers from the linked abstract pages). However, I don’t think that matters that much because the main point of this list really is to show that the basic research on the subject exists. The list is not complete, and will most likely be updated in the future in order to make it more thorough and more representative.

UPDATE (September 23, 2012): Burch & Gryvnak (1966) added.
UPDATE (February 6, 2010): Miller & Watts (1984) added.
UPDATE (July 25, 2010): I modified the introduction paragraph a little to reflect the current content of the list. The old text was a little outdated.
UPDATE (June 22, 2010): Lecher & Pernter (1881) added.
UPDATE (March 31, 2010): Tubbs & Williams (1972), Rubens & Aschkinass (1898) and Ångström (1900) added.
UPDATE (March 6, 2010): Barker (1922) added.
UPDATE (November 19, 2009): Predoi-Cross et al. (2007) added.
UPDATE (September 25, 2009): Miller & Brown (2004) added, thanks to John Cook for bringing it to my attention (see the discussion section below).

Spectroscopic database of CO2 line parameters: 4300–7000 cm−1 – Toth et al. (2008) “A new spectroscopic database for carbon dioxide in the near infrared is presented to support remote sensing of the terrestrial planets (Mars, Venus and the Earth). The compilation contains over 28,500 transitions of 210 bands from 4300 to 7000 cm−1…”

Line shape parameters measurement and computations for self-broadened carbon dioxide transitions in the 30012 ← 00001 and 30013 ← 00001 bands, line mixing, and speed dependence – Predoi-Cross et al. (2007) “Transitions of pure carbon dioxide have been measured using a Fourier transform spectrometer in the 30012 ← 00001 and 30013 ← 00001 vibrational bands. The room temperature spectra, recorded at a resolution of 0.008 cm−1, were analyzed using the Voigt model and a Speed Dependent Voigt line shape model that includes a pressure dependent narrowing parameter. Intensities, self-induced pressure broadening, shifts, and weak line mixing coefficients are determined. The results obtained are consistent with other studies in addition to the theoretically calculated values.” [Full text]

Spectroscopic challenges for high accuracy retrievals of atmospheric CO2 and the Orbiting Carbon Observatory (OCO) experiment – Miller et al. (2005) “The space-based Orbiting Carbon Observatory (OCO) mission will achieve global measurements needed to distinguish spatial and temporal gradients in the CO2 column. Scheduled by NASA to launch in 2008, the instrument will obtain averaged dry air mole fraction (XCO2) with a precision of 1 part per million (0.3%) in order to quantify the variation of CO2 sources and sinks and to improve future climate forecasts. Retrievals of XCO2 from ground-based measurements require even higher precisions to validate the satellite data and link them accurately and without bias to the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) standard for atmospheric CO2 observations. These retrievals will require CO2 spectroscopic parameters with unprecedented accuracy. Here we present the experimental and data analysis methods implemented in laboratory studies in order to achieve this challenging goal.”

Near infrared spectroscopy of carbon dioxide I. 16O12C16O line positions – Miller & Brown (2004) “High-resolution near-infrared (4000–9000 cm-1) spectra of carbon dioxide have been recorded using the McMath–Pierce Fourier transform spectrometer at the Kitt Peak National Solar Observatory. Some 2500 observed positions have been used to determine spectroscopic constants for 53 different vibrational states of the 16O12C16O isotopologue, including eight vibrational states for which laboratory spectra have not previously been reported. … This work reduces CO2 near-infrared line position uncertainties by a factor of 10 or more compared to the 2000 HITRAN line list, which has not been modified since the comprehensive work of Rothman et al. [J. Quant. Spectrosc. Rad. Transfer 48 (1992) 537].” [Full text]

Spectra calculations in central and wing regions of CO2 IR bands between 10 and 20 μm. I: model and laboratory measurements – Niro et al. (2004) “Temperature (200–300 K) and pressure (70–200 atm) dependent laboratory measurements of infrared transmission by CO2–N2 mixtures have been made. From these experiments the absorption coefficient is reconstructed, over a range of several orders of magnitude, between 600 and 1000 cm−1.”

Collisional effects on spectral line-shapes – Boulet (2004) “The growing concern of mankind for the understanding and preserving of its environment has stimulated great interest for the study of planetary atmospheres and, first of all, for that of the Earth. Onboard spectrometers now provide more and more precise information on the transmission and emission of radiation by these atmospheres. Its treatment by ‘retrieval’ technics, in order to extract vertical profiles (pressure, temperature, volume mixing ratios) requires precise modeling of infrared absorption spectra. Within this framework, accounting for the influence of pressure on the absorption shape is crucial. These effects of inter-molecular collisions between the optically active species and the ‘perturbers’ are complex and of various types depending mostly on the density of perturbers. The present paper attempts to review and illustrate, through a few examples, the state of the art in this field.”

On far-wing Raman profiles by CO2 – Benech et al. (2002) “Despite the excellent agreement observed in N2 here, a substantial inconsistency between theory and experiment was found in the wing of the spectrum. Although the influence of other missing processes or neighboring bands cannot be totally excluded, our findings rather suggest that highly anisotropic perturbers, such as CO2, are improperly described when they are handled as point-like molecules, a cornerstone hypothesis in the approach employed.”

Collision-induced scattering in CO2 gas – Teboul et al. (1995) “Carbon-dioxide gas rototranslational scattering has been measured at 294.5 K in the frequency range 10–1000 cm−1 at 23 amagat. The depolarization ratio of scattered intensities in the frequency range 10–1000 cm−1 is recorded. The theoretical and experimental spectra in the frequency range 10–470 cm−1 are compared.”

The HITRAN database: 1986 edition – Rothman et al. (1987) “A description and summary of the latest edition of the AFGL HITRAN molecular absorption parameters database are presented. This new database combines the information for the seven principal atmospheric absorbers and twenty-one additional molecular species previously contained on the AFGL atmospheric absorption line parameter compilation and on the trace gas compilation.”

Rotational structure in the infrared spectra of carbon dioxide and nitrous oxide dimers – Miller & Watts (1984) “High-resolution infrared predissociation spectra have been measured for dilute mixtures of CO2 and N2O in helium. Rotational fine structure is clearly resolved for both (CO2)2 and (N2O)2, the linewidths being instrument-limited. This establishes that predissociation lifetimes are longer than approximately 50 ns.”

Broadening of Infrared Absorption Lines at Reduced Temperatures: Carbon Dioxide – Tubbs & Williams (1972) “An evacuated high-resolution Czerny-Turner spectrograph, which is described in this paper, has been used to determine the strengths S and self-broadening parameters γ0 for lines in the R branch of the ν3 fundamental of 12C16O2 at 298 and at 207 K. The values of γ0 at 207 K are greater than those to be expected on the basis of a fixed collision cross section σ.”

Investigation of the Absorption of Infrared Radiation by Atmospheric Gases – Burch et al. (1970) “From spectral transmittance curves of very large samples of CO2 we have determined coefficients for intrinsic absorption and pressure-induced absorption from approximately 1130/cm to 1835/cm.”

Absorption of Infrared Radiant Energy by CO2 and H2O. IV. Shapes of Collision-Broadened CO2 Lines – Burch et al. (1969) “The shapes of the extreme wings of self-broadened CO2 lines have been investigated in three spectral regions near 7000, 3800, and 2400 cm−1. … New information has been obtained about the shapes of self-broadened CO2 lines as well as CO2 lines broadened by N2, O2, Ar, He, and H2.”

High-Temperature Spectral Emissivities and Total Intensities of the 15-µ Band System of CO2 – Ludwig et al. (1966) “Spectral-emissivity measurements of the 15-µ band of CO2 were made in the temperature range from 1000° to 2300°K.”

Laboratory investigation of the absorption and emission of infrared radiation – Burch & Gryvnak (1966) “Extensive measurements of the absorption by H2O and CO2 have been made in the region from 0·6 to 5·5 microm. Two different multiple-pass absorption cells provided path lengths from 2 to 933 m, and sample pressures were varied from a few μHg to 15 atm. Approximately thirty new CO2 bands were observed and identified, and the strengths of the important bands determined. The H2O data provide enough information for the determination of the strengths and widths of several hundred of the more important lines. The wings of CO2absorption lines were found to be sub-Lorentzian, with the shapes depending on temperature, broadening gas, and wavelength in ways which cannot be explained by present theories. The absorption by H2O and CO2 samples at temperatures up to 1800°K has been studied from 1 to 5 microm. The transmission of radiation from hot CO2 through cold CO2 and from hot H2O through cold H2O has been investigated to determine the effect of the coincidence of emission lines with absorption lines.” Darrell E. Burch, David A. Gryvnak, Journal of Quantitative Spectroscopy and Radiative Transfer, Volume 6, Issue 3, May–June 1966, Pages 229–240, http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0022-4073(66)90072-0.

Line shape in the wing beyond the band head of the 4·3 μ band of CO2 – Winters et al. (1964) “Quantitative absorpance measurements have been made in pure CO2 and mixtures of CO2 with N2 and O2 in a 10 m White Perkin-Elmer cell. With absorbing paths up to 50 m-atm, results have been obtained from the band head at 2397 cm−1 to 2575 cm−1.”

Emissivity of Carbon Dioxide at 4.3 µ – Davies (1964) “The emissivity of carbon dioxide has been measured for temperatures from 1500° to 3000°K over the wavelength range from 4.40 to 5.30 µ.”

Absorption Line Broadening in the Infrared – Burch et al. (1962) “The effects of various gases on the absorption bands of nitrous oxide, carbon monoxide, methane, carbon dioxide, and water vapor have been investigated.”

Total Absorptance of Carbon Dioxide in the Infrared – Burch et al. (1962) “Total absorptance… has been determined as a function of absorber concentration w and equivalent pressure Pe for the major infrared absorption bands of carbon dioxide with centers at 3716, 3609, 2350, 1064, and 961 cm−1.”

Rotation-Vibration Spectra of Diatomic and Simple Polyatomic Molecules with Long Absorbing Paths – Herzberg & Herzberg (1953) “The spectrum of CO2 in the photographic infrared has been studied with absorbing paths up to 5500 m. Thirteen absorption bands were found of which eleven have been analyzed in detail.”

The Infrared Absorption Spectrum of Carbon Dioxide – Martin & Barker (1932) “The complete infrared spectrum of CO2 may consistently be explained in terms of a linear symmetrical model, making use of the selection rules developed by Dennison and the resonance interaction introduced by Fermi. The inactive fundamental ν1 appears only in combination bands, but ν2 at 15μ and ν3 at 4.3μ absorb intensely.”

Carbon Dioxide Absorption in the Near Infra-Red – Barker (1922) “Infra-red absorption bands of CO2 at 2.7 and 4.3 μ. – New absorption curves have been obtained, using a special prism-grating double spectrometer of higher resolution (Figs. 1-3). The 2.7 μ region, heretofore considered to be a doublet, proves to be a pair of doublets, with centers at approximately 2.694 μ and 2.767 μ. The 4.3 μ band appears as a single doublet with center at 4.253 μ. The frequency difference between maxima is nearly the same for each of the three doublets, and equal to 4.5 x 1011. Complete resolution of the band series was not effected, even though the slit included only 12 A for the 2.7 μ region, but there is evidently a complicated structure, with a “head” in each case on the side of shorter wave-lengths. The existence of this head for the 4.3 μ band is also indicated by a comparison with the emission spectrum from a bunsen flame, and the difference in wave-length of the maxima of emission and absorption is explained as a temperature effect similar to that observed with other doublets.” [For free full text, click PDF or GIF links in the linked abstract page]

Ueber die Bedeutung des Wasserdampfes und der Kohlensäure bei der Absorption der Erdatmosphäre – Ångström (1900)

Observations on the Absorption and Emission of Aqueous Vapor and Carbon Dioxide in the Infra-Red Spectrum – Rubens & Aschkinass (1898) “Our experiments carried out as described above on the absorption spectrum carbon dioxide very soon showed that we were dealing with a single absorption band whose maximum lies near λ = 14.7 μ. … The whole region of absorption is limited to the interval from 12.5 μ to 16 μ, with the maximum at 14.7 μ.” [For free full text, click PDF or GIF links in the linked abstract page]

On the absorption of dark heat-rays by gases and vapours – Lecher & Pernter (1881) Svante Arrhenius wrote in his famous 1897 paper: “Tyndall held the opinion that the water-vapour has the greatest influence, whilst other authors, for instance Lecher and Pernter, are inclined to think that the carbonic acid plays the more important part.”.

The Bakerian Lecture – On the Absorption and Radiation of Heat by Gases and Vapours, and on the Physical Connexion of Radiation, Absorption, and Conduction – Tyndall (1861) 150 years ago John Tyndall already showed that carbon dioxide absorbs infrared radiation. [Full text] [Wikipedia: John Tyndall]

Closely related

The HITRAN Database – The laboratory work results on the absorption properties of carbon dioxide (and many other molecules) is contained in this database.

From Wikipedia :

HITRAN - HITRAN (an acronym for High Resolution Transmission) is a compilation of spectroscopic parameters that a variety of computer codes use to predict and simulate the transmission and emission of light in the atmosphere. The original version was compiled by the Air Force Cambridge Research Laboratories (1960s). It is maintained and developed at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge MA, USA.

HITRAN is the worldwide standard for calculating or simulating atmospheric molecular transmission and radiance from the microwave through ultraviolet region of the spectrum.[citation needed] The current version contains 42 molecular species along with their most significant isotopologues. These data are archived as a multitude of high-resolution line transitions. There are in addition many molecular species collected as cross-section data. These latter include anthropogenic introduced constituents in the atmosphere such as the chlorofluorocarbons.

The HITRAN database can be downloaded in its entirety from an FTP site at the Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. There is no charge for downloading the database, but access must be requested in advance by completing an online form. An online tool for browsing and plotting the data called HITRAN on the Web is also provided. This tool was developed by the Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and the V.E. Zuev Institute of Atmosperic Optics.