God = Allah = Abba = father

[Big Fitz]

When Jesus was ask when is the End Times?

He replied that he didn't know. That only the Father knows.

If Jesus was God as the Christian allege.

Then surely He should have known the answer to this question.

Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father"

Conjecture. He also may have chosen to not say for His own purposes.

Then again, what could a Christian hating muslim tell a Christian about the nature of the Trinity?

First of all I don't hate Christians; and you will never find a post saying that I do.

Although, you have made it very clear that you hate Muslims and Islam.

I was a Christian for many years; taught sunday school, held Bible studies in my home, and even preached in church before I converted to Islam.

So most likely, I know the Bible just a well as you; if not better than you do.

Which is apparently so, because of the number of times I have had to correct you and the other Christians here on Bible issues.

Calling Christ a liar ain't too filled with love I hear.

About as much as you've made it clear you hate Christianity I guess.

Those who leave the faith are often the biggest antagonists to their former faith.

You've corrected me once, and have run/ignored away from many other things I've posted. You're no angel either.

 

[Sunni Man]

Calling Christ a liar ain't too filled with love I hear.

I never called Jesus a liar.

I just basically said that the Christian interpretations of his words were in grave error and false.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

When Jesus was ask when is the End Times?

He replied that he didn't know. That only the Father knows.

If Jesus was God as the Christian allege.

Then surely He should have known the answer to this question.

Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father"

To make to the plan of salvation work, when God became flesh he hid from himself what he already knew. For the plan of salvation to work he had to become human. To make his death have meaning he was while on earth human.

I know you see this post.

 

[Sunni Man]

When Jesus was ask when is the End Times?

He replied that he didn't know. That only the Father knows.

If Jesus was God as the Christian allege.

Then surely He should have known the answer to this question.

Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father"

To make to the plan of salvation work, when God became flesh he hid from himself what he already knew. For the plan of salvation to work he had to become human. To make his death have meaning he was while on earth human.

I know you see this post.

So Jesus/God hid from himself?

What a bunch of nonsense!!

 

[bigrebnc1775]

To make to the plan of salvation work, when God became flesh he hid from himself what he already knew. For the plan of salvation to work he had to become human. To make his death have meaning he was while on earth human.

I know you see this post.

So Jesus/God hid from himself?

What a bunch of nonsense!!

Yes I believe he did. It makes his plan of salvation more significant. If he was in his God form he would not have suffered on the cross.

 

[Vidi]

Matthew 3:16-17

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

Three separate things.

Jesus on Earth, The Spirit descending on Him, and God in Heaven speaking and naming Jesus as His son.

God and Jesus are not one in the same. They are separate beings.

John 8:28

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

If God and Jesus were One, teaching wouldn't be needed. Jesus would already KNOW because God the Father knows.

Matthew12:32

For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come

If God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One, then speaking against one is speaking against all.

Matthew 24: 36

Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father

Jesus does not possess the same knowledge as God.



John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am

Jesus clearly state He is not equal to God.


Luke 22:42 saying: Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let not my will, but yours take place

Jesus stating that His will is NOT the same as the will of God the Father,



So to review:

Jesus is not the same body as God, does not possess the same knowledge as God, speaking against Him is not as great a sin as even speaking against the Spirit of God, and Jesus and God have separate wills.

The Bible thus clearly states in no uncertain terms that Jesus is the Son of God, that he is a separate being and is NOT God the Father.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...
John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Only one of those quotes are from the actual words of Jesus or God. Additionally, Thomas' words do not make Jesus and God one in the same being. The fact that Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for tose words only speaks to the divinity of Christ not as to his "oneness: with the Father.

Nice how you began at John 10:30 completely missing John 10:29

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

and you missed the fact that the great works are from His Father, not from Him. Seperate beings.


John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

Seperate beings

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Matthew 3:16-17

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

Three separate things.

Jesus on Earth, The Spirit descending on Him, and God in Heaven speaking and naming Jesus as His son.

God and Jesus are not one in the same. They are separate beings.

John 8:28

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

If God and Jesus were One, teaching wouldn't be needed. Jesus would already KNOW because God the Father knows.

Matthew12:32

For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come

If God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One, then speaking against one is speaking against all.

Matthew 24: 36

Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father

Jesus does not possess the same knowledge as God.



John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am

Jesus clearly state He is not equal to God.


Luke 22:42 saying: Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let not my will, but yours take place

Jesus stating that His will is NOT the same as the will of God the Father,



So to review:

Jesus is not the same body as God, does not possess the same knowledge as God, speaking against Him is not as great a sin as even speaking against the Spirit of God, and Jesus and God have separate wills.

The Bible thus clearly states in no uncertain terms that Jesus is the Son of God, that he is a separate being and is NOT God the Father.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...
John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Only one of those quotes are from the actual words of Jesus or God. Additionally, Thomas' words do not make Jesus and God one in the same being. The fact that Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for tose words only speaks to the divinity of Christ not as to his "oneness: with the Father.

Nice how you began at John 10:30 completely missing John 10:29

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

and you missed the fact that the great works are from His Father, not from Him. Seperate beings.


John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

Seperate beings

Jesus never corrected Thomas when he said it.

and you missed the fact that the great works are from His Father, not from Him. Seperate beings.

No you miss the fact of John 1:1. And Jesus is the word.

Nice how you began at John 10:30 completely missing John 10:29

Nice that you over looked Jesus's word's and my Father are one.

 

[Vidi]

I know you see this post.

So Jesus/God hid from himself?

What a bunch of nonsense!!

Yes I believe he did. It makes his plan of salvation more significant. If he was in his God form he would not have suffered on the cross.

Actually if it was God and not His Son then it makes it LESS significant. And is Biblically inaccurate.

The concept of sacrificing His Son comes from the fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his beloved son to God. Therefore, to complete the covenant, God had to show He was willing to sacrifice His Son for man. He had to sacrifice that which He loved, not Himself, as He had commanded Abraham to do.

If He came down in the flesh Himself, it would not fulfill the covenant He had with Abraham.





and Im sorry, Sunni, but this is where Islam falls short. It ignores the parallel between Jesus and Abrahams son. ( I say Abrahams son because I know that some believe that it was actually Ishmael who Abraham took to be sacrificed, not Isaac. I will not comment on that controversy ) The covenant between God and Abraham was an exchange of loyalty. If Jesus is NOT the Son of God and was NOT the sacrifice God made, as He directed Abraham, then God has yet to fulfill that covenant, to anyone.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

So Jesus/God hid from himself?

What a bunch of nonsense!!

Yes I believe he did. It makes his plan of salvation more significant. If he was in his God form he would not have suffered on the cross.

Actually if it was God and not His Son then it makes it LESS significant. And is Biblically inaccurate.

The concept of sacrificing His Son comes from the fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his beloved son to God. Therefore, to complete the covenant, God had to show He was willing to sacrifice His Son for man. He had to sacrifice that which He loved, not Himself, as He had commanded Abraham to do.

If He came down in the flesh Himself, it would not fulfill the covenant He had with Abraham.





and Im sorry, Sunni, but this is where Islam falls short. It ignores the parallel between Jesus and Abrahams son. ( I say Abrahams son because I know that some believe that it was actually Ishmael who Abraham took to be sacrificed, not Isaac. I will not comment on that controversy ) The covenant between God and Abraham was an exchange of loyalty. If Jesus is NOT the Son of God and was NOT the sacrifice God made, as He directed Abraham, then God has yet to fulfill that covenant, to anyone.

Actually if it was God and not His Son then it makes it LESS significant. And is Biblically inaccurate.

The concept of sacrificing His Son comes from the fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his beloved son to God. Therefore, to complete the covenant, God had to show He was willing to sacrifice His Son for man. He had to sacrifice that which He loved, not Himself, as He had commanded Abraham to do.

If He came down in the flesh Himself, it would not fulfill the covenant He had with Abraham.

It was God in Human flesh.

John 1:1 Jesus has always been identified as the word.

 

[Big Fitz]

Calling Christ a liar ain't too filled with love I hear.

I never called Jesus a liar.

I just basically said that the Christian interpretations of his words were in grave error and false.

So God is just too weak or too uncaring to protect His word to us from the whims of petty men?

Lemme guess, the Quran is divinely appointed and protected though because THAT is the word of God? The same God that can't protect the Bible from petty little men?

Do you even see the logical fallacy in this theory?

 

[Vidi]

Yes I believe he did. It makes his plan of salvation more significant. If he was in his God form he would not have suffered on the cross.

Actually if it was God and not His Son then it makes it LESS significant. And is Biblically inaccurate.

The concept of sacrificing His Son comes from the fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his beloved son to God. Therefore, to complete the covenant, God had to show He was willing to sacrifice His Son for man. He had to sacrifice that which He loved, not Himself, as He had commanded Abraham to do.

If He came down in the flesh Himself, it would not fulfill the covenant He had with Abraham.





and Im sorry, Sunni, but this is where Islam falls short. It ignores the parallel between Jesus and Abrahams son. ( I say Abrahams son because I know that some believe that it was actually Ishmael who Abraham took to be sacrificed, not Isaac. I will not comment on that controversy ) The covenant between God and Abraham was an exchange of loyalty. If Jesus is NOT the Son of God and was NOT the sacrifice God made, as He directed Abraham, then God has yet to fulfill that covenant, to anyone.

Actually if it was God and not His Son then it makes it LESS significant. And is Biblically inaccurate.

The concept of sacrificing His Son comes from the fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his beloved son to God. Therefore, to complete the covenant, God had to show He was willing to sacrifice His Son for man. He had to sacrifice that which He loved, not Himself, as He had commanded Abraham to do.

If He came down in the flesh Himself, it would not fulfill the covenant He had with Abraham.

It was God in Human flesh.

John 1:1 Jesus has always been identified as the word.

The identification of Jesus as the Word is a denominational thing at best. Not all denominations accept Jesus as the Word as described in John 1:1.

In fact, previous to King James verision translations, the Logos is not refered to as Him, but an It. Logos, the Word, was not seen as a being until the King james verision Bible. If you look at John 1:3, that changes the meaning quite a bit:

All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made.

Instead of:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

William Tyndale, 1534: All thinges were made by it, and without it, was made nothinge that was
made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,

Great Bible, 1539: All thinges were made by it, and wythout it, was made nothynge that was
made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,

Geneva Bible, 1560: All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was
made. In it was lif, and the lif was the light of men

Bishop’s Bible, 1568: All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was
made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.

As a result, the translators of all those versions consider the logos to be a thing, rather than a person. This
makes sense, since the Greek word logos has the sense of an idea, or plan

http://ncbf.homestead.com/Three_Interpretations_of_John_1-1.pdf

Because there are various interpretations, and even translations, of John 1:1, one cannot say with certainty that "the Word" is in fact Christ alive at the beginning, but an idea or a concept of ALL life. Christ simply epitomoized that concept.

 

[Vidi]

Yes I believe he did. It makes his plan of salvation more significant. If he was in his God form he would not have suffered on the cross.

Actually if it was God and not His Son then it makes it LESS significant. And is Biblically inaccurate.

The concept of sacrificing His Son comes from the fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his beloved son to God. Therefore, to complete the covenant, God had to show He was willing to sacrifice His Son for man. He had to sacrifice that which He loved, not Himself, as He had commanded Abraham to do.

If He came down in the flesh Himself, it would not fulfill the covenant He had with Abraham.





and Im sorry, Sunni, but this is where Islam falls short. It ignores the parallel between Jesus and Abrahams son. ( I say Abrahams son because I know that some believe that it was actually Ishmael who Abraham took to be sacrificed, not Isaac. I will not comment on that controversy ) The covenant between God and Abraham was an exchange of loyalty. If Jesus is NOT the Son of God and was NOT the sacrifice God made, as He directed Abraham, then God has yet to fulfill that covenant, to anyone.

Actually if it was God and not His Son then it makes it LESS significant. And is Biblically inaccurate.

The concept of sacrificing His Son comes from the fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his beloved son to God. Therefore, to complete the covenant, God had to show He was willing to sacrifice His Son for man. He had to sacrifice that which He loved, not Himself, as He had commanded Abraham to do.

If He came down in the flesh Himself, it would not fulfill the covenant He had with Abraham.

It was God in Human flesh.

John 1:1 Jesus has always been identified as the word.

Now you have to look at the Greek. In greek, The Word is actually the greek word Logos. nas' definition of Logas is

a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

That does not make Jesus an actual being at that point as described by John 1:1 but a concept; an idea.

Heres a list of 70 different translation of John 1:1

70-John-1-1-Truths <----warning crappy website. Hard to read and I got a warning from my virus scanner. So be careful with this link!!!! but the info on it is accurate.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Actually if it was God and not His Son then it makes it LESS significant. And is Biblically inaccurate.

The concept of sacrificing His Son comes from the fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his beloved son to God. Therefore, to complete the covenant, God had to show He was willing to sacrifice His Son for man. He had to sacrifice that which He loved, not Himself, as He had commanded Abraham to do.

If He came down in the flesh Himself, it would not fulfill the covenant He had with Abraham.





and Im sorry, Sunni, but this is where Islam falls short. It ignores the parallel between Jesus and Abrahams son. ( I say Abrahams son because I know that some believe that it was actually Ishmael who Abraham took to be sacrificed, not Isaac. I will not comment on that controversy ) The covenant between God and Abraham was an exchange of loyalty. If Jesus is NOT the Son of God and was NOT the sacrifice God made, as He directed Abraham, then God has yet to fulfill that covenant, to anyone.

Actually if it was God and not His Son then it makes it LESS significant. And is Biblically inaccurate.

The concept of sacrificing His Son comes from the fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his beloved son to God. Therefore, to complete the covenant, God had to show He was willing to sacrifice His Son for man. He had to sacrifice that which He loved, not Himself, as He had commanded Abraham to do.

If He came down in the flesh Himself, it would not fulfill the covenant He had with Abraham.

It was God in Human flesh.

John 1:1 Jesus has always been identified as the word.

Now you have to look at the Greek. In greek, The Word is actually the greek word Logos. nas' definition of Logas is

a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

That does not make Jesus an actual being at that point as described by John 1:1 but a concept; an idea.

Heres a list of 70 different translation of John 1:1

70-John-1-1-Truths <----warning crappy website. Hard to read and I got a warning from my virus scanner. So be careful with this link!!!! but the info on it is accurate.

Jesus was not a created being. As I said Jesus through out the Bible has been Identified has the word, and John 1:1 says in the beginning was the word.

 

[Vidi]

It was God in Human flesh.

John 1:1 Jesus has always been identified as the word.

Now you have to look at the Greek. In greek, The Word is actually the greek word Logos. nas' definition of Logas is

a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

That does not make Jesus an actual being at that point as described by John 1:1 but a concept; an idea.

Heres a list of 70 different translation of John 1:1

70-John-1-1-Truths <----warning crappy website. Hard to read and I got a warning from my virus scanner. So be careful with this link!!!! but the info on it is accurate.

Jesus was not a created being. As I said Jesus through out the Bible has been Identified has the word, and John 1:1 says in the beginning was the word.

and again...that is YOUR denominational belief. It is not UNIVERSAL even to Christianity.

Just because YOUR particular sect believes something doesnt mean every other sect does too. If it did, there would be no need for different sects at all.

Also YOUR sects belief isnt even Biblically accurate:


Colossians 1:15

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Now you have to look at the Greek. In greek, The Word is actually the greek word Logos. nas' definition of Logas is

a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

That does not make Jesus an actual being at that point as described by John 1:1 but a concept; an idea.

Heres a list of 70 different translation of John 1:1

70-John-1-1-Truths <----warning crappy website. Hard to read and I got a warning from my virus scanner. So be careful with this link!!!! but the info on it is accurate.

Jesus was not a created being. As I said Jesus through out the Bible has been Identified has the word, and John 1:1 says in the beginning was the word.

and again...that is YOUR denominational belief. It is not UNIVERSAL even to Christianity.

Just because YOUR particular sect believes something doesnt mean every other sect does too. If it did, there would be no need for different sects at all.

Also YOUR sects belief isnt even Biblically accurate:


Colossians 1:15

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

One more time Jesus was not created he is the word and in the beginning was the word.

Would you care to address which "Christian" denomination believes as you do?

 

[Sunni Man]

One more time Jesus was not created he is the word and in the beginning was the word.

Yes, "In the beginning was the word", meaning God's word to start creation.

And has nothing to go with Jesus. Period.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Ponder this

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

One more time Jesus was not created he is the word and in the beginning was the word.

Yes, "In the beginning was the word", meaning God's word to start creation.

And has nothing to go with Jesus. Period.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Vidi]

Ponder THIS:

If John 1:1 says that Jesus was there at the creation as "the Word" then why does John later write:


John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Is God now worshipping Himself?

and Big. You can post john 1 a thousand billion times. That ONE verse doesnt negate the entirety of the rest of the Bible.

 

[Sunni Man]

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Correct.

God was the Word, he had the Word, and the Word was Him.

It had nothing to do with Jesus. Period.