Guide To The Liberal Mind

[thereisnospoon]

Actually, the dot com boom gave Clinton a surplus, and then people realized it should bust, dingbat. Reaganism's ruin of the nonrich and the country continued...

Just a minute....Your timeline would have a shred of validity if Reagan had served AFTER Clinton.
Lib hater dupe.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Why did unions push companies out of the USA?

In 1998 Ford had record profits and employees got record level profit sharing.

You righties like to blame unions for things the GOP and Corporations did to themselves on purpose. They were able to go bankrupt and renig on pensions, move jobs overseas, cut wages and benefits, lower wages, get tax breaks passed that normally we wouldn't give but we were in a "recession" and they said it would help job creation.

And now you guys want to blame Obama because wages are down. If Romney would Prez you'd be bragging about this recovery. Fuck you guys.

I know some guys that worked in Detroit. Making $45/hr to do something a Japanese company will only pay $20/hr to do to make a much better product.

Not much surprise when American companies discovered they couldn't compete.

Well here we see the one area of capitalism where a person can make too much money.

If you're in business you have to be able to produce something people not only want to buy but can afford.

Which is one of the reasons why Henry Ford increased the wages of his workers.

Increasing wages doesn't do either. As a matter of fact it drives the price up.

Facts not on evidence. The price of cars actually came down when Henry Ford increased wages.

You could avoid appearing so ignorant by actually googling before you post such patently absurd falsehoods.

http://www.thehenryford.org/education/erb/HenryFordAndInnovation.pdf

 

[thereisnospoon]

Liberals founded this nation

What were they thinking?

the founders were not liberals. they were libertarian constitutionalists.

They were actually classical liberals. The concept of self-governing under a constitution allowing freedom was a very liberal concept in their time. Liberalism today has nothing to do with classical liberalism. Today's Liberal is basically a Communist Socialist or Marxist. The closest thing we have today to what the founding fathers were is the libertarian segment of the Tea Party. I say this with all due respect to people like Hamilton, who was a prime example of their diversification. The founding fathers, like politicians today, did not all fit into one mold.

Utter nonsense since the FF did not espouse libertarian principles or set up the constitution to support them.

Incorrect.

 

[peach174]

The argument from the left is that big business has no moral compass and no sense of patriotism or duty to any country or market and the republicans gladly and without embarrassment let corporate people like that run our country for their own selfish ends.

Big business (capitalists) do not exist to exemplify patriotism, promote social values, or devote themselves to moral causes dreamed up by liberals. They exist to do one thing, make a profit. Now sometimes it helps in the effort to make profits to be patriotic or devote themselves to causes, and when this is the case, they often do so. But primarily, their mission is to make as much profit as possible.

You view this as "greed" but it isn't. It's just what capitalists do. What is "greed" is sitting on your liberal ass and expecting your government to confiscate wealth you didn't earn and give it to you.

I know this, it's why I shudder when republicans say that they will bring big business values to government. Capitalism is amoral by your definition, do you want an amoral government concerned only with cash flow? I don't, I want a government that is concerned with the well being of it's citizens. Remember them? Those things that republicans and democrats alike are fond of calling "consumers".

Correct.


And this goes to the idiocy common to most on the right that government should be 'run like a business,' when in fact the notion is ignorant and ridiculous.

It's working very well where it has been done. Like that town in Canada.
Hazel McCallion - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Hazel McCallion
Her principles are grounded in the belief that a city should be run like a business.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I know some guys that worked in Detroit. Making $45/hr to do something a Japanese company will only pay $20/hr to do to make a much better product.

Not much surprise when American companies discovered they couldn't compete.

Well here we see the one area of capitalism where a person can make too much money.

If you're in business you have to be able to produce something people not only want to buy but can afford.

Which is one of the reasons why Henry Ford increased the wages of his workers.

Increasing wages doesn't do either. As a matter of fact it drives the price up.

Facts not on evidence. The price of cars actually came down when Henry Ford increased wages.

You could avoid appearing so ignorant by actually googling before you post such patently absurd falsehoods.

http://www.thehenryford.org/education/erb/HenryFordAndInnovation.pdf

View attachment 32038

Yeah..Ain't that something...Did that without the cynical and business ruining labor collectives.

 

[peach174]

We are. If you are poor or middle class and conservative, you have a screw or two missing.

If you are rich then we don't claim to be better than you we claim that you are a greedy fuck who's selfish to the core.

Conservatives hate government so they hate it anytime the government has to be the solution to a problem. Global Warming for example. We need our government to pass laws so citizens recycle and corporations clean up their act and we move toward green energy. This is why republicans hate admitting global warming is real and man made because they know you can't just ask and hope people stop pollutting. They won't. The government has to regulate it, and that kills Republicans.

The government has proven time and again that the do everything in a less efficient manner and in a more expensive way.

Also, Democrats lie. It's the only thing they're any good at.

They are also good at stealing Republican ideas and make it seem that it's their idea. They are very good at that too.

You mean like Obamacare?

I was thinking more along the lines of your list.
Less work hours - for Coal Miners
National Parks and Forests, the FDA, most of them on that list were Theodore Roosevelt (R) ideas and were expanded by his Cousin FDR (D)
They took the ideas of Lincoln and Ted Roosevelt and made them into the Democrats ideas, then lied about it and said that it was always their ideas.

Who said anything about republicans?

We are talking about conservatives

The thread is about Liberal minds not conservatives.

 

[thereisnospoon]

All I want is when fucking bankers crash the economy and cause untold misery at least a few of them should be jailed and made as poor as the people they swindled. How is that communism? How is it communism to have extreme distaste at how institutionalized the buying and selling of influence is? How money equals speech and how it talks louder than any number of regular people? No, communism is not hating the plutocrats and their aristocracy, it is as American as apple pie to hate unaccountable power, pity the right forgot that.

Well bankers don't crash the economy. It is a very simple-minded view this is the case. Bankers are capitalists, they operate by the same free market capitalist principles as all other capitalists. You see, you've been systematically brainwashed by Socialists to believe bankers are bad. It just automatically computes in your mind that bankers are these people who have all the money and they won't give it to you and I because they are greedy hoarders who want it all for themselves.

As for swindling people and breaking laws, we DO send people to prison for that. We have all kinds of anti-trust laws, and powerful corrupt people are brought down every single day. You see, it's in the system you advocate that this doesn't happen. Whenever you've turned control over to the central government, those people become the "ruling class" and are forever protected. They don't go to prison for corruption, you never hear about the Enron scandals. There is no buying or selling of influence because the ruling class controls all the power AND money.

In a free society, money does equal speech. Sorry, that's a fact of life in a free society. If I have more money than you, I can buy time on radio and TV, have my speech printed in magazines and newspapers, hire people to go out and speak for me, etc. There is no way to limit that without limiting free speech itself. Now we can do that, but we're cutting off our nose to spite our face. But keep in mind, free speech doesn't mean mind control. Just because someone has the money to put their message out, doesn't mean you have to listen or believe it.

We have a system of government where our representatives are elected by us. If you don't like who is influencing your politician, don't vote for them. You have that power, you also have the power to go out there and campaign against them, convince others to not vote for them. Are you scared to be free man?

It's one thing to ignore a broken system, that's just natural human laziness, it's quite another to defend it as good. The answer to the broken system that leaves us ruled by a defacto aristocracy is to do just what I and many others are doing, setting straight people such as yourself who seem to like having no voice in government policy or foolishly think the interests of billionaires coincide with the rest of us.

your jealousy and envy of successful people is noted.

The GOP has you brainwashed with that jealousy shit. When men organized into unions, were they jealous or did they want their fair share of the profits?

Yes I am a little jealous that the rich can pay off my politician to vote against me and side with their greedy ass policies. The Koch Brothers come to mind.

The Bush tax breaks should have never happened. Hell, we should roll back the Reagan tax breaks too. Fix NAFTA, tariff companies that don't come back home, invest in new start ups to compete with the companies that moved abroad. Unionize labor again. Undo Citizens United.

You guys want to cry like pussies CLASS WARFARE when we fight back from the war the rich have waged on us, and they are clearly winning. You want to call us socialists just because we don't like full blown Libertarianism.

Do you admit that between Democrats and Libertarians there is something in the middle? Not 100% free market unregulated capitalism? Or are you one of those who wants to privatize EVERYTHING? Because if you are I can't even talk to you.

And when rich liberals do the same? It's ok with you, correct?
hey genius, we all live and breathe under the same hypocrisy.
Gotta ask..why are you so vehemently opposed to the earners of money wanting to keep it?
Slapping tariffs on goods will never occur. You've already been told that trade wars are fruitless. Nobody wins.
Unions are equally fruitless. Nobody wins. No government action can mandate unionist legislation. The people would oppose it. Business would never stand for it.
And contrary to popular belief on the left, forced unionism is illegal.
Once again...I ask Who is "we"?
Finally, class warfare is a liberal democrat talking point used to to establish a voting base. It's CRAP and the ultimate example of jealousy.
And yes, you ARE socialist.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Democrats support unions and unions kick back donations to Democrats. Without unions Democrats couldn't compete with Republicans for campaign funds. Unions chase businesses put of states and even chase em out of the country. So Democrats not only attack businesses with taxes and massive regulations, but they also back the groups primarily responsible for job loss in America.

The group most responsible for job loss is the heartless bunch known only as "the stockholders". Isn't capitalism great? You can demand a factory move to China and never even have to see the faces of the newly unemployed or feel your greed hurt someone.

Give that man a hand for "non sequitur of the day".

 

[thereisnospoon]

you toss out a cherry-picked statistic about the Dow and presidents, then defend Keynesian economics...

If ANY president had the power and ability to control actual economic prosperity, would we ever see bad economic conditions happen? .

My "cherry picked statistic" about the better performance of the stock market under Democratic presidents comes from The Wall Street Journal.

What an Obama Win May Mean for Stocks - MarketBeat - WSJ

The Wall Street Journal has also reported that from the presidencies of Harry Truman to that of George W. Bush there have nearly always been more jobs created per year under Democratic presidents.

Bush On Jobs The Worst Track Record On Record - Real Time Economics - WSJ

Now, let me address your point about presidents having "the power and ability to control academic prosperity."

I believe that Republican leaders like a fairly high degree of unemployment because it relieves employers of the need to compete for employees.

Their economic policies harm the stock market, because they are based on the dogmas of classical economics. Karl Marx pointed out that the natural tendency of unregulated capitalism is to accumulate wealth at the top, and to experience increasingly destructive economic downturns. That is just exactly what did happen until the adoption of Keynesian economic policies during the Roosevelt administration.

http://www.nber.org/cycles.html

Keynesian economic policies increase average incomes by raising the minimum wage, and strengthening labor unions. They also raise taxes on the well to do, and spread the wealth around. Consequently, aggregate demand increases. Consumption increases. This encourages employers in the private sector to hire more people to produce and sell what is consumed.

Shorten this and keep it simple because it is sooo true what you are saying and somehow the righties just ignore the facts and keep on arguing for trickle down even though we've clearly went way too far with the tax breaks for the rich concept.

And they have to admit that whoever they run in the midterms or general election that righty is going to be just like GW Bush who got us in the mess we are in. The GOP obstructed Obama and now want to be rewarded that he didn't do a good enough job, so no we have to go back to what broke us in the first place?

Are the American people that dumb? They are. Why? Because they won't show up this November. They will in 2016 but midterms are how the rich keep their control over our democracy.

I should not be surprised a libtard could talk so much and say nothing. Simple republicans back big business, commies back liberals. I would rather back big business.

Sure if those were your only choices or if they were even true.

Us Liberal Progressive Democrats realize the value of corporations, free markets, capitalism and the rich. We know they are job creators. We get all that. We know we need them.

The problem is they don't think they need us anymore. In fact they can not only hire cheaper labor elsewhere, they can also sell their products and services in those countries who's economies are booming because those countries (governments) are investing in themselves.

Corporations only invest in countries/ideas/people/business' that invest in themselves. We haven't invested in America in years. Bush decided instead of infrastructure, he'd give the rich tax breaks and said they'd create jobs. They did not. They sent their money off shore and are sitting on that cash. And now our roads and bridges are falling apart and they are going to raise YOUR taxes you dumb asses!

You probably have difficulty walking and chewing gum as the same time. You are not very articulate. Your sentence construction is at best at a 4th grade level. One thing you are a professional at is spewing liberal talking points.
Free entertainment, sweet lumps.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Speaking of which:

Democrats support unions and unions kick back donations to Democrats. Without unions Democrats couldn't compete with Republicans for campaign funds. Unions chase businesses put of states and even chase em out of the country. So Democrats not only attack businesses with taxes and massive regulations, but they also back the groups primarily responsible for job loss in America.

Why did unions push companies out of the USA?

In 1998 Ford had record profits and employees got record level profit sharing.

You righties like to blame unions for things the GOP and Corporations did to themselves on purpose. They were able to go bankrupt and renig on pensions, move jobs overseas, cut wages and benefits, lower wages, get tax breaks passed that normally we wouldn't give but we were in a "recession" and they said it would help job creation.

And now you guys want to blame Obama because wages are down. If Romney would Prez you'd be bragging about this recovery. Fuck you guys.

Just stop it with the unions. That horse has left the barn. Unions are NOT coming back. Reason? Nobody wants them.
One important fact that you ignore is that like any other business, labor unions operate in their own self interest. That means, they wish to turn a profit. They do this off the backs of the people they claim to represent. In the end, unions will eat the low hanging fruit and move on..
A perfect example is the Stella D'Oro bakery in the Bronx, NY. HBO did a documentary on the strike by United Food and Commercial Workers local 342.
The contract expired and of course the union wanted a new deal. The plant was struggling financially and management went to the table with a set of concessions. One was that instead of the workers contributing nothing to their health benefits, the company wanted 10% of the cost from the workers. The union would not negotiate. The company wanted wage concessions in the form of reduced overtime which many of the workers said they depended upon to as one worker said "send my kids to private school and one to a private university. Another worker wondered how he would be able to keep his vacation home in the Poconos, without overtime.
IN any event the company and the workers were at an impasse. They decided to take the matter to court. The court ruled in favor of the union. The workers celebration was short lived. The company immediately shut the plant and sold it to another bakery company. That new firm never reopened the plant. They took the equipment out, sent it to other bakeries under their ownership and sold the building and property.
The issue here is had those workers taken the jobs with concessions, they'd all be working today. So instead of 95% they decided on ZERO %....Real friggin smart.
40 or 50 years ago, the business was over a barrel. Unions no longer have that kind of clout.
BTW, that union the UFCW is thriving as its management still have jobs and still pay the managers and delegates very well. So who won?.....Not the workers.

 

[rightwinger]

The government has proven time and again that the do everything in a less efficient manner and in a more expensive way.

Also, Democrats lie. It's the only thing they're any good at.

They are also good at stealing Republican ideas and make it seem that it's their idea. They are very good at that too.

You mean like Obamacare?

I was thinking more along the lines of your list.
Less work hours - for Coal Miners
National Parks and Forests, the FDA, most of them on that list were Theodore Roosevelt (R) ideas and were expanded by his Cousin FDR (D)
They took the ideas of Lincoln and Ted Roosevelt and made them into the Democrats ideas, then lied about it and said that it was always their ideas.

Who said anything about republicans?

We are talking about conservatives

The thread is about Liberal minds not conservatives.

Then why are you bringing up republicans?

 

[peach174]

They are also good at stealing Republican ideas and make it seem that it's their idea. They are very good at that too.

You mean like Obamacare?

I was thinking more along the lines of your list.
Less work hours - for Coal Miners
National Parks and Forests, the FDA, most of them on that list were Theodore Roosevelt (R) ideas and were expanded by his Cousin FDR (D)
They took the ideas of Lincoln and Ted Roosevelt and made them into the Democrats ideas, then lied about it and said that it was always their ideas.

Who said anything about republicans?

We are talking about conservatives

The thread is about Liberal minds not conservatives.

Then why are you bringing up republicans?

You don't think that there are Liberal Republicans?
Teddy Roosevelt was a liberal progressive.

 

[mudwhistle]

I know some guys that worked in Detroit. Making $45/hr to do something a Japanese company will only pay $20/hr to do to make a much better product.

Not much surprise when American companies discovered they couldn't compete.

Well here we see the one area of capitalism where a person can make too much money.

If you're in business you have to be able to produce something people not only want to buy but can afford.

Which is one of the reasons why Henry Ford increased the wages of his workers.

Increasing wages doesn't do either. As a matter of fact it drives the price up.

Facts not on evidence. The price of cars actually came down when Henry Ford increased wages.

You could avoid appearing so ignorant by actually googling before you post such patently absurd falsehoods.

http://www.thehenryford.org/education/erb/HenryFordAndInnovation.pdf

View attachment 32038

Go back to Model Ts then.

Henry Ford didn't have all of the overhead they have today.

The price came down because instead of building them one by one they invented the assembly-line which increased production and cut the number of man-hours needed to produce each car.

Read your own posts shithead.

 

[sealybobo]

Speaking of which:

Democrats support unions and unions kick back donations to Democrats. Without unions Democrats couldn't compete with Republicans for campaign funds. Unions chase businesses put of states and even chase em out of the country. So Democrats not only attack businesses with taxes and massive regulations, but they also back the groups primarily responsible for job loss in America.

Why did unions push companies out of the USA?

In 1998 Ford had record profits and employees got record level profit sharing.

You righties like to blame unions for things the GOP and Corporations did to themselves on purpose. They were able to go bankrupt and renig on pensions, move jobs overseas, cut wages and benefits, lower wages, get tax breaks passed that normally we wouldn't give but we were in a "recession" and they said it would help job creation.

And now you guys want to blame Obama because wages are down. If Romney would Prez you'd be bragging about this recovery. Fuck you guys.

Just stop it with the unions. That horse has left the barn. Unions are NOT coming back. Reason? Nobody wants them.
One important fact that you ignore is that like any other business, labor unions operate in their own self interest. That means, they wish to turn a profit. They do this off the backs of the people they claim to represent. In the end, unions will eat the low hanging fruit and move on..
A perfect example is the Stella D'Oro bakery in the Bronx, NY. HBO did a documentary on the strike by United Food and Commercial Workers local 342.
The contract expired and of course the union wanted a new deal. The plant was struggling financially and management went to the table with a set of concessions. One was that instead of the workers contributing nothing to their health benefits, the company wanted 10% of the cost from the workers. The union would not negotiate. The company wanted wage concessions in the form of reduced overtime which many of the workers said they depended upon to as one worker said "send my kids to private school and one to a private university. Another worker wondered how he would be able to keep his vacation home in the Poconos, without overtime.
IN any event the company and the workers were at an impasse. They decided to take the matter to court. The court ruled in favor of the union. The workers celebration was short lived. The company immediately shut the plant and sold it to another bakery company. That new firm never reopened the plant. They took the equipment out, sent it to other bakeries under their ownership and sold the building and property.
The issue here is had those workers taken the jobs with concessions, they'd all be working today. So instead of 95% they decided on ZERO %....Real friggin smart.
40 or 50 years ago, the business was over a barrel. Unions no longer have that kind of clout.
BTW, that union the UFCW is thriving as its management still have jobs and still pay the managers and delegates very well. So who won?.....Not the workers.

I will not stop. Politics is a pendulum. Since 2000 the pendulum has swung your way but the system isn't working for all of us right now and if the GOP keep being so blatantly anti labor people are going to finally wake up and realize they are labor and how for the last 40 years the GOP have fucked the middle class.

Thank god for the internet so people aren't being brainwashed with the corporate media that is only liberal on social issues. BFD.

 

[sealybobo]

Well here we see the one area of capitalism where a person can make too much money.

If you're in business you have to be able to produce something people not only want to buy but can afford.

Which is one of the reasons why Henry Ford increased the wages of his workers.

Increasing wages doesn't do either. As a matter of fact it drives the price up.

Facts not on evidence. The price of cars actually came down when Henry Ford increased wages.

You could avoid appearing so ignorant by actually googling before you post such patently absurd falsehoods.

http://www.thehenryford.org/education/erb/HenryFordAndInnovation.pdf

View attachment 32038

Go back to Model Ts then.

Henry Ford didn't have all of the overhead they have today.

The price came down because instead of building them one by one they invented the assembly-line which increased production.

Read your own posts shithead.

Pay the workers enough so they can afford to buy the products they make. Even Walmart employees can't afford walmart products. That's why they go on foodstamps.

They sure don't worry about overhead when paying Mary GM CEO Mary Barra s compensation will be worth about 14.4 million Detroit Free Press freep.com

 

[regent]

The Republican problem was, what to do with Teddy when he started gaining a following. The Republican solution: put Teddy in the VP slot, the dead end of many a political career, then bingo McKinley gets himself shot. The Republican party was filled with grief, not for McKinley but because that "damn cowboy is in the White House now." And Teddy let loose a series of reforms, out reforming many a Democrat.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Utter nonsense since the FF did not espouse libertarian principles or set up the constitution to support them.

LMAO... Sure they did. What part of "secure the blessings of liberty" are you having trouble with?

That expression does not have a libertarian trademark. But thanks for admitting that the FF were not libertarians.

That expression is very much a libertarian trademark, how is it not? I didn't admit the FF were not libertarian. Many of their views are very much in line with libertarian philosophy. As I said, the closest thing today to what the majority of FF were is the libertarian wing of the Tea Party movement.

What the FF weren't is Communist Socialists and Marxists.

The FF were not libertarians because the term itself didn't even come into use until after the constitution was written. Your own perverted brand of "right-libertarianism" wasn't spawned up until the middle of the 20th century so it is utter hogwash at allege that the FF's were libertarians.

Originally liberatarians were socialists who became communists.

As usual you just throw you own ignorant feces around hoping that some of it will stick.

keep telling yourself that lie.

 

[mudwhistle]

If you're in business you have to be able to produce something people not only want to buy but can afford.

Which is one of the reasons why Henry Ford increased the wages of his workers.

Increasing wages doesn't do either. As a matter of fact it drives the price up.

Facts not on evidence. The price of cars actually came down when Henry Ford increased wages.

You could avoid appearing so ignorant by actually googling before you post such patently absurd falsehoods.

http://www.thehenryford.org/education/erb/HenryFordAndInnovation.pdf

View attachment 32038

Go back to Model Ts then.

Henry Ford didn't have all of the overhead they have today.

The price came down because instead of building them one by one they invented the assembly-line which increased production.

Read your own posts shithead.

Pay the workers enough so they can afford to buy the products they make. Even Walmart employees can't afford walmart products. That's why they go on foodstamps.

They sure don't worry about overhead when paying Mary GM CEO Mary Barra s compensation will be worth about 14.4 million Detroit Free Press freep.com

What about decreasing cost per unit don't you understand?

 

[thereisnospoon]

If you're in business you have to be able to produce something people not only want to buy but can afford.

Which is one of the reasons why Henry Ford increased the wages of his workers.

Increasing wages doesn't do either. As a matter of fact it drives the price up.

Facts not on evidence. The price of cars actually came down when Henry Ford increased wages.

You could avoid appearing so ignorant by actually googling before you post such patently absurd falsehoods.

http://www.thehenryford.org/education/erb/HenryFordAndInnovation.pdf

View attachment 32038

Go back to Model Ts then.

Henry Ford didn't have all of the overhead they have today.

The price came down because instead of building them one by one they invented the assembly-line which increased production.

Read your own posts shithead.

Pay the workers enough so they can afford to buy the products they make. Even Walmart employees can't afford walmart products. That's why they go on foodstamps.

They sure don't worry about overhead when paying Mary GM CEO Mary Barra s compensation will be worth about 14.4 million Detroit Free Press freep.com

That's a myth. Another lib class envy talking point. Not even worth the keystrokes to engage in the argument.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Oooo scary, you got all serious and shit. No one wants to bring it down Mr. Big Bossman they just want to take the Psychopaths out of the equation. Do you think capitalism can work without undue exploitation or fraud? If it's that awesome then a return of some lost faith is nothing but a good thing. A lot of people have lost faith in capitalism because they did everything right and still failed. Shouting at people and calling them commies and infidels for noticing the warts and blemishes of your awesome economic religion is never going to restore anyone's faith.

America never put a guarantee to succeed in the bill of rights. Communism sure doesn't.

Your side rigged the rules. Its our government's job to undo what the mega rich have done through Bush and the GOP and the Supreme Court.

No wonder the GOP needed to steal 2000. They already planned on invading Iraq that's we know for sure and they wanted to appoint Alito and Roberts so they could pass Citizens United.

You are so wrong. Gore tried to steal the election in 2000 and failed, thank goodness. Libtarded logic at its best fails.

And I bet global warming isn't man made, right?

it isn't. And there is NO global warming. The eastern 2/3rds of the US just went through two of the coldest winters on record. The NWS long range forecast is for another unusually cold winter.