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I think the universe was created to produce intelligence because intelligence was written into the fabric of existence which is an undeniable fact.Correct it is an complex interconnected adaptive system whose purpose is to create intelligence. Saying the universe is an intelligence creating machine is a metaphor.The universe isn't a machine.
That's your opinion.
You think that the universe was designed just so you could exist. That is hubris of the highest order.
The universe just is and life is something that happened in the universe.
Wrong. Unpredictable does not mean random. It means there are more variables than equations to solve.Unpredictable does not mean random. Quantum mechanics does not violate the laws of nature. So everything does proceed in a logical fashion (which does not necessarily mean linear) regardless of whether we can predict it or not. Unpredictable does not mean random. There has never been an uncaused event. Therefore, nothing is random.Of course i do but that does not rule out the existence of random causes and therefore unpredictable events. You think everything proceeds in a linear and predictable way. It doesn't.Blues Man why do you keep dodging the question do you believe cause and effect exists?
Of course it does.
If you throw a set of dice the outcome is unpredictable therefore random.
Random: Determined by accident rather than design.
And I've already stated many times that a random event can cause another event.
You are the one saying that everything has proceeded from one cause via a sequence of predictable events and have all been designed to produce intelligence.
I do not discount that intelligent beings arose by accident rather than design.
The natural order of matter and energy is to complexify. That isn't an accident. That is matter and energy obeying the laws of nature. Every stage of the evolution of matter occurred naturally according to the laws of nature. Cause and effect means there are no random events. Just because the system is too complex to model does not mean there was not a cause. There has never been an uncaused event.I do not discount that intelligent beings arose by accident rather than design.
I did not say you would use a vagina to hold cement. I said if you did according to YOUR logic you would have defined the purpose of a vagina to be a container for cement. You said you define purpose by how you use something not by what that something was made for. Right? Those were YOUR words, right?It's your logic. You said you define purpose on how you use something. So if you used a vagina to fill it with cement you would be defining the purpose of a vagina to hold cement.With logic like that you could argue the purpose of a vagina is to hold cement.The purpose of a lawn mower is to cut grass no matter how many people you kill with it.No purpose is defined by the intent of user.Purpose is defined by what something was made for. We were made to know and to create.The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.
Do you agree?
So you think that your purpose is defined by something outside yourself?
You are operating on a big if and instead of regarding that if as a hypothetical you are operating as if that if then hypothetical condition is proven fact.
Purpose is not defined by the creator of anything. It is defined by the user.
The inventor of a wrench can try to tell me that the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a particular size nut. But if I use that wrench to strike a person in self defense I have defined the purpose of the wrench in that instant to be a weapon.
So purpose is subjective and defined by the person using a tool not the person who created the tool.
And I see nothing contradictory in believing the universe was not created for a purpose. The universe simply is what it is.
A hammer was made to hammer. A lawn mower was made to cut grass. The universe was made to create intelligence.
I can use a knife to cut food, chop wood or stab a person. I decide the purpose of that knife.
If I use a lawn mower to kill a person than I defined that lawn mowers purpose in that instance.
And we do not how how the universe came to be so for a human being being so insignificant to claim he knows the purpose of the universe is outrageously arrogant and not to mention conceited.
As I said we humans have a penchant for grandiose thinking and we think so much of ourselves that we like to think we are the very image of a god and that the universe was made just for us.
I hate to burst your bubble but we are an insignificant life form in one galaxy among a couple trillion galaxies.
The purpose of a knife is to cut.
There is nothing special about humans. Being the pinnacle of creation means we are the most complex thing the universe has produced. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. Intelligence is written into the laws of nature and the fabric of existence.
I disagree.
If I use a wrench to pound a nail into a piece of wood I have defined the purpose of that wrench in that instant as a tool to pound a nail it doesn't matter to the wrench what its inventor designed it for and it certainly doesn't matter to me, the user of the tool. It is the intent of the person using a tool that defines its purpose and that purpose can change.
The universe isn't a machine.
So now we equate inanimate objects with actual body parts of living beings? With logic like that I could say that a gun kills people of its own volition.
But I agree with you that it's illogical to define purpose that way.
I do not use the vaginas of women.
A vagina is not a tool it was not invented by anyone. I don't think I should have to explain this to anyone of reasonable intelligence.
Neither of those statements are true. I started my journey by looking at the only two options which exist; God created existence (aka space and time) or existence created itself. So, no. I did not exclude all possibilities but one.No. You just need to stop being subjective and having a preference for an outcome.No, that wouldn't be true. Spirituality is not absence of the material. Spirituality is not worshiping the material. Materialism is the absence of spirituality. In that regard, spirituality offers functional advantages that materialism cannot provide.Of course natural selection confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage to materialism. If it didn't everyone would be atheist.And yet natural selection confirms that belief in God is functionally superior to materialism.Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.
Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.
And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.
So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.
How did we get here and what happens after we die.
We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die.
Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.
Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.
And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.
So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.
How did we get here and what happens after we die.
We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die. So we will continue to speculate the existence of creators and afterlives until we can actually understand them. And since I believe we may be incapable of understanding them due to the physical limitations of our brains then we will always speculate about the mystical as a cause for the physical world we do not understand
No it doesn't.
If that were true then food, air and water would be less important than spirituality. The material is far more important because without there would be no man made concept of the spirit
Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.
So once again I see that I need to reorder my Dingtionary
I have no preference. You on the other hand exclude all possibilities but one.
Wrong. Unpredictable does not mean random. It means there are more variables than equations to solve.Unpredictable does not mean random. Quantum mechanics does not violate the laws of nature. So everything does proceed in a logical fashion (which does not necessarily mean linear) regardless of whether we can predict it or not. Unpredictable does not mean random. There has never been an uncaused event. Therefore, nothing is random.Of course i do but that does not rule out the existence of random causes and therefore unpredictable events. You think everything proceeds in a linear and predictable way. It doesn't.Blues Man why do you keep dodging the question do you believe cause and effect exists?
Of course it does.
If you throw a set of dice the outcome is unpredictable therefore random.
Random: Determined by accident rather than design.
And I've already stated many times that a random event can cause another event.
You are the one saying that everything has proceeded from one cause via a sequence of predictable events and have all been designed to produce intelligence.
I do not discount that intelligent beings arose by accident rather than design.
If you throw a pair of dice the outcome is only unpredictable because there were too many unknowns to predict the outcome. If every unknown was known and could be modeled then the outcome could be predicted. The reality is there was a cause for the effect. Just because you couldn't predict it doesn't make it random. If you threw the dice and one landed on the table and the other flew up in the air defying the law of gravity, that would be a random event that violated the laws of physics.
The fabric of the universe are the laws of nature which define everything which is potential. In other words the fabric of the universe is built into matter and energy itself. Only the things which can exist per the laws of nature will exist. It wasn't an accident that sub atomic particles formed hydrogen and helium. It wasn't an accident that hydrogen and helium formed stellar structures. It wasn't an accident that the stellar structures formed all of the elements. It wasn't an accident that all of the chemical compounds were formed by the elements. It wasn't an accident that inanimate matter made the leap to life. It wasn't an accident that life evolved in ever increasing comlexity until intelligence emerged.I think the universe was created to produce intelligence because intelligence was written into the fabric of existence which is an undeniable fact.Correct it is an complex interconnected adaptive system whose purpose is to create intelligence. Saying the universe is an intelligence creating machine is a metaphor.The universe isn't a machine.
That's your opinion.
You think that the universe was designed just so you could exist. That is hubris of the highest order.
The universe just is and life is something that happened in the universe.
And that is your opinion because you cannot even show me the "fabric" of the universe never mind any writing that may be on it.
Intelligent beings are just as likely to have arisen by accident.
I did not say you would use a vagina to hold cement. I said if you did according to YOUR logic you would have defined the purpose of a vagina to be a container for cement. You said you define purpose by how you use something not by what that something was made for. Right? Those were YOUR words, right?It's your logic. You said you define purpose on how you use something. So if you used a vagina to fill it with cement you would be defining the purpose of a vagina to hold cement.With logic like that you could argue the purpose of a vagina is to hold cement.The purpose of a lawn mower is to cut grass no matter how many people you kill with it.No purpose is defined by the intent of user.Purpose is defined by what something was made for. We were made to know and to create.The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.
Do you agree?
So you think that your purpose is defined by something outside yourself?
You are operating on a big if and instead of regarding that if as a hypothetical you are operating as if that if then hypothetical condition is proven fact.
Purpose is not defined by the creator of anything. It is defined by the user.
The inventor of a wrench can try to tell me that the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a particular size nut. But if I use that wrench to strike a person in self defense I have defined the purpose of the wrench in that instant to be a weapon.
So purpose is subjective and defined by the person using a tool not the person who created the tool.
And I see nothing contradictory in believing the universe was not created for a purpose. The universe simply is what it is.
A hammer was made to hammer. A lawn mower was made to cut grass. The universe was made to create intelligence.
I can use a knife to cut food, chop wood or stab a person. I decide the purpose of that knife.
If I use a lawn mower to kill a person than I defined that lawn mowers purpose in that instance.
And we do not how how the universe came to be so for a human being being so insignificant to claim he knows the purpose of the universe is outrageously arrogant and not to mention conceited.
As I said we humans have a penchant for grandiose thinking and we think so much of ourselves that we like to think we are the very image of a god and that the universe was made just for us.
I hate to burst your bubble but we are an insignificant life form in one galaxy among a couple trillion galaxies.
The purpose of a knife is to cut.
There is nothing special about humans. Being the pinnacle of creation means we are the most complex thing the universe has produced. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. Intelligence is written into the laws of nature and the fabric of existence.
I disagree.
If I use a wrench to pound a nail into a piece of wood I have defined the purpose of that wrench in that instant as a tool to pound a nail it doesn't matter to the wrench what its inventor designed it for and it certainly doesn't matter to me, the user of the tool. It is the intent of the person using a tool that defines its purpose and that purpose can change.
The universe isn't a machine.
So now we equate inanimate objects with actual body parts of living beings? With logic like that I could say that a gun kills people of its own volition.
But I agree with you that it's illogical to define purpose that way.
I do not use the vaginas of women.
A vagina is not a tool it was not invented by anyone. I don't think I should have to explain this to anyone of reasonable intelligence.
It's only random to you because you can't predict it. Like I said before, the inability to predict the outcome does not mean it was random. It means that there are not enough known variables or not enough known equations to predict the outcome. But there was a reason for each outcome even if you don't know it or can predict it. Random - in the context of this discussion - means not obeying the laws of nature. Random means there was no cause or effect.Wrong. Unpredictable does not mean random. It means there are more variables than equations to solve.Unpredictable does not mean random. Quantum mechanics does not violate the laws of nature. So everything does proceed in a logical fashion (which does not necessarily mean linear) regardless of whether we can predict it or not. Unpredictable does not mean random. There has never been an uncaused event. Therefore, nothing is random.Of course i do but that does not rule out the existence of random causes and therefore unpredictable events. You think everything proceeds in a linear and predictable way. It doesn't.Blues Man why do you keep dodging the question do you believe cause and effect exists?
Of course it does.
If you throw a set of dice the outcome is unpredictable therefore random.
Random: Determined by accident rather than design.
And I've already stated many times that a random event can cause another event.
You are the one saying that everything has proceeded from one cause via a sequence of predictable events and have all been designed to produce intelligence.
I do not discount that intelligent beings arose by accident rather than design.
If you throw a pair of dice the outcome is only unpredictable because there were too many unknowns to predict the outcome. If every unknown was known and could be modeled then the outcome could be predicted. The reality is there was a cause for the effect. Just because you couldn't predict it doesn't make it random. If you threw the dice and one landed on the table and the other flew up in the air defying the law of gravity, that would be a random event that violated the laws of physics.
If you roll a trillion dice with a billion sides each the result is random
The natural order of matter and energy is to complexify. That isn't an accident. That is matter and energy obeying the laws of nature. Every stage of the evolution of matter occurred naturally according to the laws of nature. Cause and effect means there are no random events. Just because the system is too complex to model does not mean there was not a cause. There has never been an uncaused event.I do not discount that intelligent beings arose by accident rather than design.
It's only random to you because you can't predict it. Like I said before, the inability to predict the outcome does not mean it was random. It means that there are not enough known variables or not enough known equations to predict the outcome. But there was a reason for each outcome even if you don't know it or can predict it. Random - in the context of this discussion - means not obeying the laws of nature. Random means there was no cause or effect.Wrong. Unpredictable does not mean random. It means there are more variables than equations to solve.Unpredictable does not mean random. Quantum mechanics does not violate the laws of nature. So everything does proceed in a logical fashion (which does not necessarily mean linear) regardless of whether we can predict it or not. Unpredictable does not mean random. There has never been an uncaused event. Therefore, nothing is random.Of course i do but that does not rule out the existence of random causes and therefore unpredictable events. You think everything proceeds in a linear and predictable way. It doesn't.Blues Man why do you keep dodging the question do you believe cause and effect exists?
Of course it does.
If you throw a set of dice the outcome is unpredictable therefore random.
Random: Determined by accident rather than design.
And I've already stated many times that a random event can cause another event.
You are the one saying that everything has proceeded from one cause via a sequence of predictable events and have all been designed to produce intelligence.
I do not discount that intelligent beings arose by accident rather than design.
If you throw a pair of dice the outcome is only unpredictable because there were too many unknowns to predict the outcome. If every unknown was known and could be modeled then the outcome could be predicted. The reality is there was a cause for the effect. Just because you couldn't predict it doesn't make it random. If you threw the dice and one landed on the table and the other flew up in the air defying the law of gravity, that would be a random event that violated the laws of physics.
If you roll a trillion dice with a billion sides each the result is random
www.merriam-webster.com
When you say the sole purpose of the universe is the creating of intelligent life you are excluding the possibility that the universe has no purpose and just is.Neither of those statements are true. I started my journey by looking at the only two options which exist; God created existence (aka space and time) or existence created itself. So, no. I did not exclude all possibilities but one.No. You just need to stop being subjective and having a preference for an outcome.No, that wouldn't be true. Spirituality is not absence of the material. Spirituality is not worshiping the material. Materialism is the absence of spirituality. In that regard, spirituality offers functional advantages that materialism cannot provide.Of course natural selection confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage to materialism. If it didn't everyone would be atheist.And yet natural selection confirms that belief in God is functionally superior to materialism.Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.
Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.
And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.
So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.
How did we get here and what happens after we die.
We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die.
Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.
Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.
And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.
So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.
How did we get here and what happens after we die.
We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die. So we will continue to speculate the existence of creators and afterlives until we can actually understand them. And since I believe we may be incapable of understanding them due to the physical limitations of our brains then we will always speculate about the mystical as a cause for the physical world we do not understand
No it doesn't.
If that were true then food, air and water would be less important than spirituality. The material is far more important because without there would be no man made concept of the spirit
Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.
So once again I see that I need to reorder my Dingtionary
I have no preference. You on the other hand exclude all possibilities but one.
I believe you are subjective because the positions you take are illogical and incongruent. You believe truth is relative yet you make absolute statements. You believe events randomly occur but say you believe in cause and effect. You believe morals instead of humans are subjective. You believe purpose is defined by the misuse of what something was intended to be used for. You believe that intelligence is an accidental outcome instead of the natural evolution of space and time. And you believe that logical truths, scientific truths and mathematical truths were invented rather than discovered.
No one invented the vagina just like no one invented logic. But it doesn't matter because I am employing YOUR logic that purpose is defined by how something is used and not what it was intended for.I did not say you would use a vagina to hold cement. I said if you did according to YOUR logic you would have defined the purpose of a vagina to be a container for cement. You said you define purpose by how you use something not by what that something was made for. Right? Those were YOUR words, right?It's your logic. You said you define purpose on how you use something. So if you used a vagina to fill it with cement you would be defining the purpose of a vagina to hold cement.With logic like that you could argue the purpose of a vagina is to hold cement.The purpose of a lawn mower is to cut grass no matter how many people you kill with it.No purpose is defined by the intent of user.Purpose is defined by what something was made for. We were made to know and to create.The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.
Do you agree?
So you think that your purpose is defined by something outside yourself?
You are operating on a big if and instead of regarding that if as a hypothetical you are operating as if that if then hypothetical condition is proven fact.
Purpose is not defined by the creator of anything. It is defined by the user.
The inventor of a wrench can try to tell me that the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a particular size nut. But if I use that wrench to strike a person in self defense I have defined the purpose of the wrench in that instant to be a weapon.
So purpose is subjective and defined by the person using a tool not the person who created the tool.
And I see nothing contradictory in believing the universe was not created for a purpose. The universe simply is what it is.
A hammer was made to hammer. A lawn mower was made to cut grass. The universe was made to create intelligence.
I can use a knife to cut food, chop wood or stab a person. I decide the purpose of that knife.
If I use a lawn mower to kill a person than I defined that lawn mowers purpose in that instance.
And we do not how how the universe came to be so for a human being being so insignificant to claim he knows the purpose of the universe is outrageously arrogant and not to mention conceited.
As I said we humans have a penchant for grandiose thinking and we think so much of ourselves that we like to think we are the very image of a god and that the universe was made just for us.
I hate to burst your bubble but we are an insignificant life form in one galaxy among a couple trillion galaxies.
The purpose of a knife is to cut.
There is nothing special about humans. Being the pinnacle of creation means we are the most complex thing the universe has produced. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. Intelligence is written into the laws of nature and the fabric of existence.
I disagree.
If I use a wrench to pound a nail into a piece of wood I have defined the purpose of that wrench in that instant as a tool to pound a nail it doesn't matter to the wrench what its inventor designed it for and it certainly doesn't matter to me, the user of the tool. It is the intent of the person using a tool that defines its purpose and that purpose can change.
The universe isn't a machine.
So now we equate inanimate objects with actual body parts of living beings? With logic like that I could say that a gun kills people of its own volition.
But I agree with you that it's illogical to define purpose that way.
I do not use the vaginas of women.
A vagina is not a tool it was not invented by anyone. I don't think I should have to explain this to anyone of reasonable intelligence.
So tell me who invented the vagina?
Is the vagina a tool? Can someone other than the woman use her vagina ?
This line of thought is beyond ludicrous.
I never equated a body part with TOOL.
The wielder of the tool defines the purpose of that tool by his INTENT.
I can use a bucket to mix cement even though the inventor of the bucket said the purpose of the bucket was to carry water.
I can use a wrench to kill a person even though the inventor states the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a nut.
I can use a rock which has no inventor as a tool for any number of purposes that I define by my intent.
without definite aim, direction, rule, or method.It's only random to you because you can't predict it. Like I said before, the inability to predict the outcome does not mean it was random. It means that there are not enough known variables or not enough known equations to predict the outcome. But there was a reason for each outcome even if you don't know it or can predict it. Random - in the context of this discussion - means not obeying the laws of nature. Random means there was no cause or effect.Wrong. Unpredictable does not mean random. It means there are more variables than equations to solve.Unpredictable does not mean random. Quantum mechanics does not violate the laws of nature. So everything does proceed in a logical fashion (which does not necessarily mean linear) regardless of whether we can predict it or not. Unpredictable does not mean random. There has never been an uncaused event. Therefore, nothing is random.Of course i do but that does not rule out the existence of random causes and therefore unpredictable events. You think everything proceeds in a linear and predictable way. It doesn't.Blues Man why do you keep dodging the question do you believe cause and effect exists?
Of course it does.
If you throw a set of dice the outcome is unpredictable therefore random.
Random: Determined by accident rather than design.
And I've already stated many times that a random event can cause another event.
You are the one saying that everything has proceeded from one cause via a sequence of predictable events and have all been designed to produce intelligence.
I do not discount that intelligent beings arose by accident rather than design.
If you throw a pair of dice the outcome is only unpredictable because there were too many unknowns to predict the outcome. If every unknown was known and could be modeled then the outcome could be predicted. The reality is there was a cause for the effect. Just because you couldn't predict it doesn't make it random. If you threw the dice and one landed on the table and the other flew up in the air defying the law of gravity, that would be a random event that violated the laws of physics.
If you roll a trillion dice with a billion sides each the result is randomDefinition of RANDOM
lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern; made, done, or chosen at random; relating to, having, or being elements or events with definite probability of occurrence… See the full definition
a: lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern
Did I say sole purpose?When you say the sole purpose of the universe is the creating of intelligent life you are excluding the possibility that the universe has no purpose and just is.Neither of those statements are true. I started my journey by looking at the only two options which exist; God created existence (aka space and time) or existence created itself. So, no. I did not exclude all possibilities but one.No. You just need to stop being subjective and having a preference for an outcome.No, that wouldn't be true. Spirituality is not absence of the material. Spirituality is not worshiping the material. Materialism is the absence of spirituality. In that regard, spirituality offers functional advantages that materialism cannot provide.Of course natural selection confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage to materialism. If it didn't everyone would be atheist.And yet natural selection confirms that belief in God is functionally superior to materialism.Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.
Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.
And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.
So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.
How did we get here and what happens after we die.
We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die.
Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.
Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.
And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.
So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.
How did we get here and what happens after we die.
We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die. So we will continue to speculate the existence of creators and afterlives until we can actually understand them. And since I believe we may be incapable of understanding them due to the physical limitations of our brains then we will always speculate about the mystical as a cause for the physical world we do not understand
No it doesn't.
If that were true then food, air and water would be less important than spirituality. The material is far more important because without there would be no man made concept of the spirit
Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.
So once again I see that I need to reorder my Dingtionary
I have no preference. You on the other hand exclude all possibilities but one.
I believe you are subjective because the positions you take are illogical and incongruent. You believe truth is relative yet you make absolute statements. You believe events randomly occur but say you believe in cause and effect. You believe morals instead of humans are subjective. You believe purpose is defined by the misuse of what something was intended to be used for. You believe that intelligence is an accidental outcome instead of the natural evolution of space and time. And you believe that logical truths, scientific truths and mathematical truths were invented rather than discovered.
The fact of the matter is we do not know what happened in the picosecond before the universe came to be so we do not know the cause. You assume there are only 2 options.
Actually I didn't. Like I said before... I started my journey by looking at the only two options which exist; God created existence (aka space and time) or existence created itself. So, no. I did not exclude the possibility that the universe has no purpose and just is. In fact what I have said before is this...you are excluding the possibility that the universe has no purpose and just is.
It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional.
Man invented logic as a system of rules for correct inference.No one invented the vagina just like no one invented logic. But it doesn't matter because I am employing YOUR logic that purpose is defined by how something is used and not what it was intended for.I did not say you would use a vagina to hold cement. I said if you did according to YOUR logic you would have defined the purpose of a vagina to be a container for cement. You said you define purpose by how you use something not by what that something was made for. Right? Those were YOUR words, right?It's your logic. You said you define purpose on how you use something. So if you used a vagina to fill it with cement you would be defining the purpose of a vagina to hold cement.With logic like that you could argue the purpose of a vagina is to hold cement.The purpose of a lawn mower is to cut grass no matter how many people you kill with it.No purpose is defined by the intent of user.Purpose is defined by what something was made for. We were made to know and to create.The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.
Do you agree?
So you think that your purpose is defined by something outside yourself?
You are operating on a big if and instead of regarding that if as a hypothetical you are operating as if that if then hypothetical condition is proven fact.
Purpose is not defined by the creator of anything. It is defined by the user.
The inventor of a wrench can try to tell me that the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a particular size nut. But if I use that wrench to strike a person in self defense I have defined the purpose of the wrench in that instant to be a weapon.
So purpose is subjective and defined by the person using a tool not the person who created the tool.
And I see nothing contradictory in believing the universe was not created for a purpose. The universe simply is what it is.
A hammer was made to hammer. A lawn mower was made to cut grass. The universe was made to create intelligence.
I can use a knife to cut food, chop wood or stab a person. I decide the purpose of that knife.
If I use a lawn mower to kill a person than I defined that lawn mowers purpose in that instance.
And we do not how how the universe came to be so for a human being being so insignificant to claim he knows the purpose of the universe is outrageously arrogant and not to mention conceited.
As I said we humans have a penchant for grandiose thinking and we think so much of ourselves that we like to think we are the very image of a god and that the universe was made just for us.
I hate to burst your bubble but we are an insignificant life form in one galaxy among a couple trillion galaxies.
The purpose of a knife is to cut.
There is nothing special about humans. Being the pinnacle of creation means we are the most complex thing the universe has produced. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. Intelligence is written into the laws of nature and the fabric of existence.
I disagree.
If I use a wrench to pound a nail into a piece of wood I have defined the purpose of that wrench in that instant as a tool to pound a nail it doesn't matter to the wrench what its inventor designed it for and it certainly doesn't matter to me, the user of the tool. It is the intent of the person using a tool that defines its purpose and that purpose can change.
The universe isn't a machine.
So now we equate inanimate objects with actual body parts of living beings? With logic like that I could say that a gun kills people of its own volition.
But I agree with you that it's illogical to define purpose that way.
I do not use the vaginas of women.
A vagina is not a tool it was not invented by anyone. I don't think I should have to explain this to anyone of reasonable intelligence.
So tell me who invented the vagina?
Is the vagina a tool? Can someone other than the woman use her vagina ?
This line of thought is beyond ludicrous.
I never equated a body part with TOOL.
The wielder of the tool defines the purpose of that tool by his INTENT.
I can use a bucket to mix cement even though the inventor of the bucket said the purpose of the bucket was to carry water.
I can use a wrench to kill a person even though the inventor states the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a nut.
I can use a rock which has no inventor as a tool for any number of purposes that I define by my intent.
A vagina is not a tool. Some men use a woman's vagina without her permission. But it doesn't matter because I am employing YOUR logic that purpose is defined by how something is used and not what it was intended for.
I agree that YOUR line of thought/logic - that purpose is defined by how something is used and not what it was intended for - is ludicrous.
I never said you equated a body part with TOOL. I am employing YOUR logic to show you how ludicrous it is to define purpose by how something is used and not what it was intended for.
The wielder of the tool does NOT define the purpose of that tool by his INTENT. You are trying to define the rule through exception which is illogical.
Yes, you can use a bucket to mix cement. A bucket is a container. The purpose of a bucket is to contain. You arguing that the bucket was only designed to contain water shows you are biased and unable to be objective because you have a preference for an outcome. Which in this case is defining the rule by exception.
Yes, you can use a wrench to kill a person even though the inventor states the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a nut. That still doesn't mean the purpose of a wrench is to kill people. You are trying to define the rule through exception which is illogical.
Yes, you can use a rock which has no inventor as a tool for any number of purposes that you define by your intent. Which has no bearing on the conversation that the purpose of the universe is to produce intelligence.
Did I say sole purpose?When you say the sole purpose of the universe is the creating of intelligent life you are excluding the possibility that the universe has no purpose and just is.Neither of those statements are true. I started my journey by looking at the only two options which exist; God created existence (aka space and time) or existence created itself. So, no. I did not exclude all possibilities but one.No. You just need to stop being subjective and having a preference for an outcome.No, that wouldn't be true. Spirituality is not absence of the material. Spirituality is not worshiping the material. Materialism is the absence of spirituality. In that regard, spirituality offers functional advantages that materialism cannot provide.Of course natural selection confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage to materialism. If it didn't everyone would be atheist.And yet natural selection confirms that belief in God is functionally superior to materialism.Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.
Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.
And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.
So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.
How did we get here and what happens after we die.
We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die.
Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.
Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.
And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.
So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.
How did we get here and what happens after we die.
We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die. So we will continue to speculate the existence of creators and afterlives until we can actually understand them. And since I believe we may be incapable of understanding them due to the physical limitations of our brains then we will always speculate about the mystical as a cause for the physical world we do not understand
No it doesn't.
If that were true then food, air and water would be less important than spirituality. The material is far more important because without there would be no man made concept of the spirit
Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.
So once again I see that I need to reorder my Dingtionary
I have no preference. You on the other hand exclude all possibilities but one.
I believe you are subjective because the positions you take are illogical and incongruent. You believe truth is relative yet you make absolute statements. You believe events randomly occur but say you believe in cause and effect. You believe morals instead of humans are subjective. You believe purpose is defined by the misuse of what something was intended to be used for. You believe that intelligence is an accidental outcome instead of the natural evolution of space and time. And you believe that logical truths, scientific truths and mathematical truths were invented rather than discovered.
The fact of the matter is we do not know what happened in the picosecond before the universe came to be so we do not know the cause. You assume there are only 2 options.
I'm pretty sure I said the reason why the universe was created was for us to share in God's existence. The universe being an intelligence creating machine - metaphorically speaking - is a manifestation of that intent.
The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
When you start with a preconceived and arbitrary set of just 2 possibilities you cannot come to any conclusions that are not preconceived or arbitrary.Actually I didn't. Like I said before... I started my journey by looking at the only two options which exist; God created existence (aka space and time) or existence created itself. So, no. I did not exclude the possibility that the universe has no purpose and just is. In fact what I have said before is this...you are excluding the possibility that the universe has no purpose and just is.
It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional.
So I started my evaluation from two possible mutually exclusive positions; 1. the universe was created by God intentionally and has a purpose. And 2. the universe was not created by God and has no purpose.
So you are wrong again.
Again... logic is an artifact of intelligence. Logic, like truth, is objective. Logic and truth cannot be anything man wants them to be. Logic and truth exist independent of man. Man did not invent logic or truth. Man discovered logic and truth just like Einstein discovered e=mc^2.Man invented logic as a system of rules for correct inference.No one invented the vagina just like no one invented logic. But it doesn't matter because I am employing YOUR logic that purpose is defined by how something is used and not what it was intended for.I did not say you would use a vagina to hold cement. I said if you did according to YOUR logic you would have defined the purpose of a vagina to be a container for cement. You said you define purpose by how you use something not by what that something was made for. Right? Those were YOUR words, right?It's your logic. You said you define purpose on how you use something. So if you used a vagina to fill it with cement you would be defining the purpose of a vagina to hold cement.With logic like that you could argue the purpose of a vagina is to hold cement.The purpose of a lawn mower is to cut grass no matter how many people you kill with it.No purpose is defined by the intent of user.Purpose is defined by what something was made for. We were made to know and to create.The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.
Do you agree?
So you think that your purpose is defined by something outside yourself?
You are operating on a big if and instead of regarding that if as a hypothetical you are operating as if that if then hypothetical condition is proven fact.
Purpose is not defined by the creator of anything. It is defined by the user.
The inventor of a wrench can try to tell me that the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a particular size nut. But if I use that wrench to strike a person in self defense I have defined the purpose of the wrench in that instant to be a weapon.
So purpose is subjective and defined by the person using a tool not the person who created the tool.
And I see nothing contradictory in believing the universe was not created for a purpose. The universe simply is what it is.
A hammer was made to hammer. A lawn mower was made to cut grass. The universe was made to create intelligence.
I can use a knife to cut food, chop wood or stab a person. I decide the purpose of that knife.
If I use a lawn mower to kill a person than I defined that lawn mowers purpose in that instance.
And we do not how how the universe came to be so for a human being being so insignificant to claim he knows the purpose of the universe is outrageously arrogant and not to mention conceited.
As I said we humans have a penchant for grandiose thinking and we think so much of ourselves that we like to think we are the very image of a god and that the universe was made just for us.
I hate to burst your bubble but we are an insignificant life form in one galaxy among a couple trillion galaxies.
The purpose of a knife is to cut.
There is nothing special about humans. Being the pinnacle of creation means we are the most complex thing the universe has produced. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. Intelligence is written into the laws of nature and the fabric of existence.
I disagree.
If I use a wrench to pound a nail into a piece of wood I have defined the purpose of that wrench in that instant as a tool to pound a nail it doesn't matter to the wrench what its inventor designed it for and it certainly doesn't matter to me, the user of the tool. It is the intent of the person using a tool that defines its purpose and that purpose can change.
The universe isn't a machine.
So now we equate inanimate objects with actual body parts of living beings? With logic like that I could say that a gun kills people of its own volition.
But I agree with you that it's illogical to define purpose that way.
I do not use the vaginas of women.
A vagina is not a tool it was not invented by anyone. I don't think I should have to explain this to anyone of reasonable intelligence.
So tell me who invented the vagina?
Is the vagina a tool? Can someone other than the woman use her vagina ?
This line of thought is beyond ludicrous.
I never equated a body part with TOOL.
The wielder of the tool defines the purpose of that tool by his INTENT.
I can use a bucket to mix cement even though the inventor of the bucket said the purpose of the bucket was to carry water.
I can use a wrench to kill a person even though the inventor states the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a nut.
I can use a rock which has no inventor as a tool for any number of purposes that I define by my intent.
A vagina is not a tool. Some men use a woman's vagina without her permission. But it doesn't matter because I am employing YOUR logic that purpose is defined by how something is used and not what it was intended for.
I agree that YOUR line of thought/logic - that purpose is defined by how something is used and not what it was intended for - is ludicrous.
I never said you equated a body part with TOOL. I am employing YOUR logic to show you how ludicrous it is to define purpose by how something is used and not what it was intended for.
The wielder of the tool does NOT define the purpose of that tool by his INTENT. You are trying to define the rule through exception which is illogical.
Yes, you can use a bucket to mix cement. A bucket is a container. The purpose of a bucket is to contain. You arguing that the bucket was only designed to contain water shows you are biased and unable to be objective because you have a preference for an outcome. Which in this case is defining the rule by exception.
Yes, you can use a wrench to kill a person even though the inventor states the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a nut. That still doesn't mean the purpose of a wrench is to kill people. You are trying to define the rule through exception which is illogical.
Yes, you can use a rock which has no inventor as a tool for any number of purposes that you define by your intent. Which has no bearing on the conversation that the purpose of the universe is to produce intelligence.
The wielder of the tool defines the purpose with his intent and that has nothing to do with the inventor's purpose for inventing that tool.
Purpose is defined by the intent of the user.
The inventor's intent may have been to produce a tool to perform a certain function but that does not eliminate all the other ways that same tool can be used and only the person using the tool decide it's purpose by imposing his own intent.
In fact I'll argue that it is the human ability to use tools in ways other than the intent of the inventor that is one of the reasons we have been so successful as a species.
So in order for the universe to have a purpose as you claim then there had to be a creator with the intent to create a universe that produces intelligent life forms. As we have yet to find any evidence of said creator.
