Henotheism and Atheism

[ding]

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die.

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die. So we will continue to speculate the existence of creators and afterlives until we can actually understand them. And since I believe we may be incapable of understanding them due to the physical limitations of our brains then we will always speculate about the mystical as a cause for the physical world we do not understand

And yet natural selection confirms that belief in God is functionally superior to materialism.

No it doesn't.

Of course natural selection confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage to materialism. If it didn't everyone would be atheist.

If that were true then food, air and water would be less important than spirituality. The material is far more important because without there would be no man made concept of the spirit

No, that wouldn't be true. Spirituality is not absence of the material. Spirituality is not worshiping the material. Materialism is the absence of spirituality. In that regard, spirituality offers functional advantages that materialism cannot provide.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

 

[ding]

Blues Man why do you keep dodging the question do you believe cause and effect exists?

 

[ding]

Human used gods as explanations for what they did not understand.

How many gods have been discarded by humans over the eons? We used them to explain just about everything from birth to thunderstorms.

Now we use a god to explain the inception of the universe

What difference does it make to one's life today as to how the universe came into existence? Not.A.Bit. Did intelligence come from matter? Did matter come from intelligence? Are both eternal/infinite? God's relationship to the universe and its beginnings has nothing to do with one's own life and relationships.

Even if in the next hour someone proves a great intelligence (God) is how the universe began, the next argument would begin. "Just because God created the universe doesn't mean He particularly cares about human life..."

For me the two are related. God created the material world so that we can share in His existence which shows He does care about us. So for me how the universe came into existence does make a difference. I don't see how anyone who can conceptualize the creation of existence can not see God's metaphorical hand in it. All the matter in the universe being created from nothing in the space of a single proton. It's mind blowing.

I think the account of Creation made a difference for Abraham as well. Abraham lived during a time that polytheism dominated the beliefs of society. Where multiple gods were believed to have material form and controlled everything. Abraham's belief that God created existence, had no material form and was interested in man's conduct was diametrically opposite of the beliefs of the day. It's not an accident or unimportant why the Torah begins with the account of Creation. The answers to the origin questions are vitally important in understanding our purpose because it explains that we were made by God and for God.

 

[Blues Man]

Human used gods as explanations for what they did not understand.

How many gods have been discarded by humans over the eons? We used them to explain just about everything from birth to thunderstorms.

Now we use a god to explain the inception of the universe

What difference does it make to one's life today as to how the universe came into existence? Not.A.Bit. Did intelligence come from matter? Did matter come from intelligence? Are both eternal/infinite? God's relationship to the universe and its beginnings has nothing to do with one's own life and relationships.

Even if in the next hour someone proves a great intelligence (God) is how the universe began, the next argument would begin. "Just because God created the universe doesn't mean He particularly cares about human life..."

You just restated my entire point.

It makes absolutely no difference how the universe began and it makes absolutely no difference.

Why would anyone assume a supreme being cares about human life? If some god did create the universe we as a species amount to barely more than nothing at all in relation to the universe.

 

[Blues Man]

If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.

The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.

Do you agree?

So you think that your purpose is defined by something outside yourself?

You are operating on a big if and instead of regarding that if as a hypothetical you are operating as if that if then hypothetical condition is proven fact.

Purpose is not defined by the creator of anything. It is defined by the user.

The inventor of a wrench can try to tell me that the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a particular size nut. But if I use that wrench to strike a person in self defense I have defined the purpose of the wrench in that instant to be a weapon.

So purpose is subjective and defined by the person using a tool not the person who created the tool.

And I see nothing contradictory in believing the universe was not created for a purpose. The universe simply is what it is.

Purpose is defined by what something was made for. We were made to know and to create.

A hammer was made to hammer. A lawn mower was made to cut grass. The universe was made to create intelligence.

No purpose is defined by the intent of user.
I can use a knife to cut food, chop wood or stab a person. I decide the purpose of that knife.
If I use a lawn mower to kill a person than I defined that lawn mowers purpose in that instance.


And we do not how how the universe came to be so for a human being being so insignificant to claim he knows the purpose of the universe is outrageously arrogant and not to mention conceited.

As I said we humans have a penchant for grandiose thinking and we think so much of ourselves that we like to think we are the very image of a god and that the universe was made just for us.

I hate to burst your bubble but we are an insignificant life form in one galaxy among a couple trillion galaxies.

The purpose of a lawn mower is to cut grass no matter how many people you kill with it.

The purpose of a knife is to cut.

There is nothing special about humans. Being the pinnacle of creation means we are the most complex thing the universe has produced. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. Intelligence is written into the laws of nature and the fabric of existence.

I disagree.

If I use a wrench to pound a nail into a piece of wood I have defined the purpose of that wrench in that instant as a tool to pound a nail it doesn't matter to the wrench what its inventor designed it for and it certainly doesn't matter to me, the user of the tool. It is the intent of the person using a tool that defines its purpose and that purpose can change.

The universe isn't a machine.

With logic like that you could argue the purpose of a vagina is to hold cement.

So now we equate inanimate objects with actual body parts of living beings? With logic like that I could say that a gun kills people of its own volition.

 

[Blues Man]

The universe isn't a machine.

Correct it is an complex interconnected adaptive system whose purpose is to create intelligence. Saying the universe is an intelligence creating machine is a metaphor.

That's your opinion.

You think that the universe was designed just so you could exist. That is hubris of the highest order.

The universe just is and life is something that happened in the universe.

 

[Blues Man]

Blues Man why do you keep dodging the question do you believe cause and effect exists?

Of course i do but that does not rule out the existence of random causes and therefore unpredictable events. You think everything proceeds in a linear and predictable way. It doesn't.

 

[Blues Man]

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die.

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die. So we will continue to speculate the existence of creators and afterlives until we can actually understand them. And since I believe we may be incapable of understanding them due to the physical limitations of our brains then we will always speculate about the mystical as a cause for the physical world we do not understand

And yet natural selection confirms that belief in God is functionally superior to materialism.

No it doesn't.

Of course natural selection confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage to materialism. If it didn't everyone would be atheist.

If that were true then food, air and water would be less important than spirituality. The material is far more important because without there would be no man made concept of the spirit

No, that wouldn't be true. Spirituality is not absence of the material. Spirituality is not worshiping the material. Materialism is the absence of spirituality. In that regard, spirituality offers functional advantages that materialism cannot provide.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

So once again I see that I need to reorder my Dingtionary

 

[Meriweather]

If some god did create the universe we as a species amount to barely more than nothing at all in relation to the universe.

Consider whether rocks and material mean more to God than the living.

 

[Blues Man]

If some god did create the universe we as a species amount to barely more than nothing at all in relation to the universe.

Consider whether rocks and material mean more to God than the living.

There is no evidence that some benevolent god is looking out for humanity

 

[Meriweather]

There is no evidence

Obviously. Evidence relates to the physical, not to the spiritual.

 

[Blues Man]

There is no evidence

Obviously. Evidence relates to the physical, not to the spiritual.

Spirituality is just another concept than mas has invented.

As we became better at survival and eventually did not have to spend as much time, energy and thought to surviving each day we started expanding our thought processes. It's not difficult to see how the idea of spirituality came to be.

 

[ding]

Blues Man why do you keep dodging the question do you believe cause and effect exists?

Of course i do but that does not rule out the existence of random causes and therefore unpredictable events. You think everything proceeds in a linear and predictable way. It doesn't.

Unpredictable does not mean random. Quantum mechanics does not violate the laws of nature. So everything does proceed in a logical fashion (which does not necessarily mean linear) regardless of whether we can predict it or not. Unpredictable does not mean random. There has never been an uncaused event. Therefore, nothing is random.

 

[ding]

If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.

The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.

Do you agree?

So you think that your purpose is defined by something outside yourself?

You are operating on a big if and instead of regarding that if as a hypothetical you are operating as if that if then hypothetical condition is proven fact.

Purpose is not defined by the creator of anything. It is defined by the user.

The inventor of a wrench can try to tell me that the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a particular size nut. But if I use that wrench to strike a person in self defense I have defined the purpose of the wrench in that instant to be a weapon.

So purpose is subjective and defined by the person using a tool not the person who created the tool.

And I see nothing contradictory in believing the universe was not created for a purpose. The universe simply is what it is.

Purpose is defined by what something was made for. We were made to know and to create.

A hammer was made to hammer. A lawn mower was made to cut grass. The universe was made to create intelligence.

No purpose is defined by the intent of user.
I can use a knife to cut food, chop wood or stab a person. I decide the purpose of that knife.
If I use a lawn mower to kill a person than I defined that lawn mowers purpose in that instance.


And we do not how how the universe came to be so for a human being being so insignificant to claim he knows the purpose of the universe is outrageously arrogant and not to mention conceited.

As I said we humans have a penchant for grandiose thinking and we think so much of ourselves that we like to think we are the very image of a god and that the universe was made just for us.

I hate to burst your bubble but we are an insignificant life form in one galaxy among a couple trillion galaxies.

The purpose of a lawn mower is to cut grass no matter how many people you kill with it.

The purpose of a knife is to cut.

There is nothing special about humans. Being the pinnacle of creation means we are the most complex thing the universe has produced. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. Intelligence is written into the laws of nature and the fabric of existence.

I disagree.

If I use a wrench to pound a nail into a piece of wood I have defined the purpose of that wrench in that instant as a tool to pound a nail it doesn't matter to the wrench what its inventor designed it for and it certainly doesn't matter to me, the user of the tool. It is the intent of the person using a tool that defines its purpose and that purpose can change.

The universe isn't a machine.

With logic like that you could argue the purpose of a vagina is to hold cement.

So now we equate inanimate objects with actual body parts of living beings? With logic like that I could say that a gun kills people of its own volition.

It's your logic. You said you define purpose on how you use something. So if you used a vagina to fill it with cement you would be defining the purpose of a vagina to hold cement.

But I agree with you that it's illogical to define purpose that way.

 

[ding]

If some god did create the universe we as a species amount to barely more than nothing at all in relation to the universe.

Consider whether rocks and material mean more to God than the living.

There is no evidence that some benevolent god is looking out for humanity

That's probably because you think the bad outweighs the good and don't believe good can come from bad or understand how God is pruning you.

 

[Blues Man]

Blues Man why do you keep dodging the question do you believe cause and effect exists?

Of course i do but that does not rule out the existence of random causes and therefore unpredictable events. You think everything proceeds in a linear and predictable way. It doesn't.

Unpredictable does not mean random. Quantum mechanics does not violate the laws of nature. So everything does proceed in a logical fashion (which does not necessarily mean linear) regardless of whether we can predict it or not. Unpredictable does not mean random. There has never been an uncaused event. Therefore, nothing is random.

Of course it does.

If you throw a set of dice the outcome is unpredictable therefore random.

Random: Determined by accident rather than design.

And I've already stated many times that a random event can cause another event.

You are the one saying that everything has proceeded from one cause via a sequence of predictable events and have all been designed to produce intelligence.

I do not discount that intelligent beings arose by accident rather than design.

 

[ding]

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die.

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die. So we will continue to speculate the existence of creators and afterlives until we can actually understand them. And since I believe we may be incapable of understanding them due to the physical limitations of our brains then we will always speculate about the mystical as a cause for the physical world we do not understand

And yet natural selection confirms that belief in God is functionally superior to materialism.

No it doesn't.

Of course natural selection confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage to materialism. If it didn't everyone would be atheist.

If that were true then food, air and water would be less important than spirituality. The material is far more important because without there would be no man made concept of the spirit

No, that wouldn't be true. Spirituality is not absence of the material. Spirituality is not worshiping the material. Materialism is the absence of spirituality. In that regard, spirituality offers functional advantages that materialism cannot provide.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

So once again I see that I need to reorder my Dingtionary

No. You just need to stop being subjective and having a preference for an outcome.

 

[Blues Man]

If the universe has a purpose then I must have a purpose. If the universe has no purpose then I must have no purpose.

The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. If a constant presence of mind intentionally created the universe, then it was created for a purpose. If the universe was not created by a constant presence of mind then it would have not been intentionally created and it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do.

Do you agree?

So you think that your purpose is defined by something outside yourself?

You are operating on a big if and instead of regarding that if as a hypothetical you are operating as if that if then hypothetical condition is proven fact.

Purpose is not defined by the creator of anything. It is defined by the user.

The inventor of a wrench can try to tell me that the purpose of the wrench is to apply torque to a particular size nut. But if I use that wrench to strike a person in self defense I have defined the purpose of the wrench in that instant to be a weapon.

So purpose is subjective and defined by the person using a tool not the person who created the tool.

And I see nothing contradictory in believing the universe was not created for a purpose. The universe simply is what it is.

Purpose is defined by what something was made for. We were made to know and to create.

A hammer was made to hammer. A lawn mower was made to cut grass. The universe was made to create intelligence.

No purpose is defined by the intent of user.
I can use a knife to cut food, chop wood or stab a person. I decide the purpose of that knife.
If I use a lawn mower to kill a person than I defined that lawn mowers purpose in that instance.


And we do not how how the universe came to be so for a human being being so insignificant to claim he knows the purpose of the universe is outrageously arrogant and not to mention conceited.

As I said we humans have a penchant for grandiose thinking and we think so much of ourselves that we like to think we are the very image of a god and that the universe was made just for us.

I hate to burst your bubble but we are an insignificant life form in one galaxy among a couple trillion galaxies.

The purpose of a lawn mower is to cut grass no matter how many people you kill with it.

The purpose of a knife is to cut.

There is nothing special about humans. Being the pinnacle of creation means we are the most complex thing the universe has produced. The universe is an intelligence creating machine. Intelligence is written into the laws of nature and the fabric of existence.

I disagree.

If I use a wrench to pound a nail into a piece of wood I have defined the purpose of that wrench in that instant as a tool to pound a nail it doesn't matter to the wrench what its inventor designed it for and it certainly doesn't matter to me, the user of the tool. It is the intent of the person using a tool that defines its purpose and that purpose can change.

The universe isn't a machine.

With logic like that you could argue the purpose of a vagina is to hold cement.

So now we equate inanimate objects with actual body parts of living beings? With logic like that I could say that a gun kills people of its own volition.

It's your logic. You said you define purpose on how you use something. So if you used a vagina to fill it with cement you would be defining the purpose of a vagina to hold cement.

But I agree with you that it's illogical to define purpose that way.

I do not use the vaginas of women.

A vagina is not a tool it was not invented by anyone. I don't think I should have to explain this to anyone of reasonable intelligence.

 

[Blues Man]

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die.

Looking at it from an human evolutionary perspective we could say prehistoric man's only purpose was to survive and procreate. Since we are primates we can assume we evolved as social creatures. The culmination of that social evolution is what has made us what we are. We are no longer simply a product of the natural environment and we are more a product of our societies than anything else.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

Man has always used gods to explain what they didn't comprehend. As we have understood more and more of our environment we have discarded those gods. The belief in some everlasting spirit is nothing but a manifestation of our fear of death and that we will somehow continue to live on after death.

And I'll grant you that religion did have a societal effect as all measures of control do. When the ruling class can get the masses to think that if they behaved than there would be some reward beyond the misery of their existence then you get an obedient populace and that makes the success of a society more likely not to mention that it enriches the powers that be, including the religious orders which gave those institutions even more power.

So we boil it all down to the biggest of our unanswered questions.

How did we get here and what happens after we die.

We don't really know what caused the inception of the universe and we certainly don't understand anything but a fraction of our universe. And we may never understand it. We as sentient creature that fear death like to think that our consciousness (spirit) that makes us the individuals we are won't simply vanish when we die. So we will continue to speculate the existence of creators and afterlives until we can actually understand them. And since I believe we may be incapable of understanding them due to the physical limitations of our brains then we will always speculate about the mystical as a cause for the physical world we do not understand

And yet natural selection confirms that belief in God is functionally superior to materialism.

No it doesn't.

Of course natural selection confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage to materialism. If it didn't everyone would be atheist.

If that were true then food, air and water would be less important than spirituality. The material is far more important because without there would be no man made concept of the spirit

No, that wouldn't be true. Spirituality is not absence of the material. Spirituality is not worshiping the material. Materialism is the absence of spirituality. In that regard, spirituality offers functional advantages that materialism cannot provide.

Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS offer a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS lead to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, these beliefs AND BEHAVIORS would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic mankind became the less satisfied mankind became. It's all very logical.

So once again I see that I need to reorder my Dingtionary

No. You just need to stop being subjective and having a preference for an outcome.

I have no preference. You on the other hand exclude all possibilities but one.

 

[ding]

The universe isn't a machine.

Correct it is an complex interconnected adaptive system whose purpose is to create intelligence. Saying the universe is an intelligence creating machine is a metaphor.

That's your opinion.

You think that the universe was designed just so you could exist. That is hubris of the highest order.

The universe just is and life is something that happened in the universe.

I think the universe was created to produce intelligence because intelligence was written into the fabric of existence which is an undeniable fact.