Hmmm...another police officer shot in France, by a guy with a rifle....in gun controlled France....

[2aguy]

I feel bad for the officer and the family.....

How did another guy get a rifle to shoot another police officer in France? They have gun control....so no law abiding citizen can have a gun for self defense.....but criminals and terrorists have no problem getting them.....a gun control win win?

 

[Dekster]

How many Americans died from gun-related violence yesterday? If you want to draw a comparison, you actually have to present something to be compared.

 

[2aguy]

No, I am commenting on the belief that gun control laws work.....we on the pro 2nd amendment side have always pointed out, that if you ban guns....law abiding citizens will obey that law, and the criminals won't......so all you are doing is disarming law abiding people who won't kill other innocent people....

Canada, Australia, and France have shown this to be true....

You have convicted terrorists on French watch lists who were able to get military grade Russian rifles and a rocket propelled grenade, when they wanted them.....

Not one innocent, law abiding French citizen had a gun, that is 27 people during the attack on the magazine, and all the bystanders then and this shooting......so gun control has worked as we said it would....

Don't tell me that they have less gun murders because criminals can't get guns.....they have less gun murders because their criminals have decided not to do them.....it seems like the terrorists have just decided to start doing it....


Also....keep in mind another thread.....Puerto Rico....and island nation....has the strictest control in the United States.....and they have the highest gun murder rate in the world....

Gun control guarantees that good people will be helpless against armed criminals who work alone or in groups....

 

[2aguy]

How many Americans died from gun-related violence yesterday? If you want to draw a comparison, you actually have to present something to be compared.

and you would only have one half of the important numbers looking at our gun murder rate.....

We have 8-9,000 gun murders a year and 6-700 accidental gun deaths a year.....on the other side...on average, law abiding, good people, use guns 1.6 million times a year to stop violent criminal attacks and save lives....

which number is bigger?

 

[depotoo]

I agree Billc. All gun control does is arm the criminals.

 

[Brain357]

No, I am commenting on the belief that gun control laws work.....we on the pro 2nd amendment side have always pointed out, that if you ban guns....law abiding citizens will obey that law, and the criminals won't......so all you are doing is disarming law abiding people who won't kill other innocent people....

Canada, Australia, and France have shown this to be true....

You have convicted terrorists on French watch lists who were able to get military grade Russian rifles and a rocket propelled grenade, when they wanted them.....

Not one innocent, law abiding French citizen had a gun, that is 27 people during the attack on the magazine, and all the bystanders then and this shooting......so gun control has worked as we said it would....

Don't tell me that they have less gun murders because criminals can't get guns.....they have less gun murders because their criminals have decided not to do them.....it seems like the terrorists have just decided to start doing it....


Also....keep in mind another thread.....Puerto Rico....and island nation....has the strictest control in the United States.....and they have the highest gun murder rate in the world....

Gun control guarantees that good people will be helpless against armed criminals who work alone or in groups....

Does France have more shootings than the U.S.?

 

[Brain357]

How many Americans died from gun-related violence yesterday? If you want to draw a comparison, you actually have to present something to be compared.

and you would only have one half of the important numbers looking at our gun murder rate.....

We have 8-9,000 gun murders a year and 6-700 accidental gun deaths a year.....on the other side...on average, law abiding, good people, use guns 1.6 million times a year to stop violent criminal attacks and save lives....

which number is bigger?

No it is not good people defending. As Kleck himself stated typically defenses are by people involved in criminal activity.

And well the 1.6 million has been debunked several times over. It is maybe 100k.

 

[2aguy]

How many Americans died from gun-related violence yesterday? If you want to draw a comparison, you actually have to present something to be compared.

and you would only have one half of the important numbers looking at our gun murder rate.....

We have 8-9,000 gun murders a year and 6-700 accidental gun deaths a year.....on the other side...on average, law abiding, good people, use guns 1.6 million times a year to stop violent criminal attacks and save lives....

which number is bigger?

No it is not good people defending. As Kleck himself stated typically defenses are by people involved in criminal activity.

And well the 1.6 million has been debunked several times over. It is maybe 100k.

Brain....that is not what Dr. Kleck said....he said people might not want to report using their gun for fear of having done something illegal....and I explained clearly what he may have meant....like the two guys who brought their guns with them into a bars....and both bars were robbed and they used their guns to fight off the criminal......those are law abiding citizens who "broke" the law about bringing guns into bars.....not members of drug cartels....

And the 1.6 million number is the average of 19 studies conducted over 40 years, from different researchers, both private and public....so no....again....you are wrong...it hasn't even come close to being debunked...

the number you use...from the National Crime Victimization Survey.....is the least accurate of all the studies since they don't use defenses that drive off the attacker, hold him at gun point for the police or merely wound them....they only use deaths.....the least accurate measure of all gun related self defense.......

 

[Brain357]

How many Americans died from gun-related violence yesterday? If you want to draw a comparison, you actually have to present something to be compared.

and you would only have one half of the important numbers looking at our gun murder rate.....

We have 8-9,000 gun murders a year and 6-700 accidental gun deaths a year.....on the other side...on average, law abiding, good people, use guns 1.6 million times a year to stop violent criminal attacks and save lives....

which number is bigger?

No it is not good people defending. As Kleck himself stated typically defenses are by people involved in criminal activity.

And well the 1.6 million has been debunked several times over. It is maybe 100k.

Brain....that is not what Dr. Kleck said....he said people might not want to report using their gun for fear of having done something illegal....and I explained clearly what he may have meant....like the two guys who brought their guns with them into a bars....and both bars were robbed and they used their guns to fight off the criminal......those are law abiding citizens who "broke" the law about bringing guns into bars.....not members of drug cartels....

And the 1.6 million number is the average of 19 studies conducted over 40 years, from different researchers, both private and public....so no....again....you are wrong...it hasn't even come close to being debunked...

the number you use...from the National Crime Victimization Survey.....is the least accurate of all the studies since they don't use defenses that drive off the attacker, hold him at gun point for the police or merely wound them....they only use deaths.....the least accurate measure of all gun related self defense.......

No bill his quote is quite clear.
Kleck:
"DGUs typically involve criminal behavior, such as unlawful gun possession, by the gun-using victim, who therefore is often unwilling to report the incident."

The victim is typically involved in criminal behavior. That means most of the time.

No it doesn't use only deaths. Read it. They know there are about 30,000 deaths a year they can't claim 100,000 DGUs if counting only deaths.

 

[2aguy]

No it doesn't use only deaths

Then tell that to the CATO institute....

 

[Brain357]

No it doesn't use only deaths

Then tell that to the CATO institute....

Deaths doesn't make any sense. Who's deaths? If it were just criminals the number would be 230. If it included victims 9000. The number is about 100k.

 

[2aguy]

Let's see what Kleck actually says...shall we....the authors being Kleck and his partner.....

Guns and Self-Defense by Gary Kleck Ph.D.

The authors concluded that defensive uses of guns are about three to four times as common as criminal uses of guns. The National Self-Defense Survey confirmed the picture of frequent defensive gun use implied by the results of earlier, less sophisticated surveys.

 

[2aguy]

Forbes article on Cato institute study on defensive gun uses...they culled through reports to get their number...



Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually.


A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

For these reasons, the Cato researchers investigated published news reports which much more often reveal how Americans use guns in self-defense. The data set is derived from a collection of nearly 5,000 randomly selected incidents published between October 2003 and November 2011. Still, the authors also recognize limitations with this approach, since many defensive incidents are never reported by victims, or when they are, never get published. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the successful self-defense outcomes are those where the defendants’ guns are presented but never fired.

Most of the actual self-defense shootings in the Cato study didn’t involve concealed carry licenses, but more typically had to do with responses to residential invasions. Of these, 488 involved home burglaries. In addition, there were 1,227 incidents where intruders were induced to flee the scene by armed inhabitants, circumstances that might otherwise have resulted in injurious assaults including rapes and murders.

There were 285 news accounts indicating that the defender had a concealed weapon license, which in the majority of these incidents took place outside a home or place of business. Pizza delivery drivers were common robbery targets.


Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

 

[2aguy]

Now Brain....you will find the CATO methodology familiar.....they did what you pointed out in the study of stories in the site... "The Armed Citizen" except they culled through 5,000 stories in papers, not just those picked out by "The Armed Citizen" ....and here is some of what they found....


I just picked up a copy of "Tough Targets" from Amazon......


Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

For these reasons, the Cato researchers investigated published news reports which much more often reveal how Americans use guns in self-defense. The data set is derived from a collection of nearly 5,000 randomly selected incidents published between October 2003 and November 2011. Still, the authors also recognize limitations with this approach, since many defensive incidents are never reported by victims, or when they are, never get published. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the successful self-defense outcomes are those where the defendants’ guns are presented but never fired.

Most of the actual self-defense shootings in the Cato study didn’t involve concealed carry licenses, but more typically had to do with responses to residential invasions. Of these, 488 involved home burglaries. In addition, there were 1,227 incidents where intruders were induced to flee the scene by armed inhabitants, circumstances that might otherwise have resulted in injurious assaults including rapes and murders. There were 285 news accounts indicating that the defender had a concealed weapon license, which in the majority of these incidents took place outside a home or place of business. Pizza delivery drivers were common robbery targets.

Whereas gun control proponents often argue that having a gun put people at risk because a criminal will take it away and use it against them, it seems the reality is more often to be the reverse situation. The Cato data contains only 11 stories out of 4,699 where a criminal took a gun away from a defender, but 277 where the intended victim disarmed the bad guy, although the authors acknowledge that these event reports may be printed more frequently due to newsworthiness.

Still, it should also be remembered that the threatened party often has more motivation to fight back than a criminal hoping for an easy score. There were 25 news reports where armed rape attack victims ultimately got the upper hand, and 65 where this occurred in carjacking attempts.

Then there is the argument that more private gun ownership will lead to more accidents because the average citizen isn’t sufficiently trained to use a weapon defensively. While gun accidents do occur, the Cato study indicates that they are the most overstated risks. There were 535 accidental firearms deaths in 2006 within a population of almost 300 million people. Although every lost life is tragic, the proportion is not particularly startling.

On the other hand, Newsweek has reported that law-abiding American citizens using guns in self-defense during 2003 shot and killed two and one-half times as many criminals as police did, and with fewer than one-fifth as many incidents as police where an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal (2% versus 11%).

Finally, on the subject of public safety, just how well have gun bans worked in other countries? Take the number of home break-ins while residents are present as an indication. In Canada and Britain, both with tough gun-control laws, nearly half of all burglaries occur when residents are present. But in the U.S. where many households are armed, only about 13% happen when someone is home.

 

[Brain357]

Forbes article on Cato institute study on defensive gun uses...they culled through reports to get their number...



Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually.


A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

For these reasons, the Cato researchers investigated published news reports which much more often reveal how Americans use guns in self-defense. The data set is derived from a collection of nearly 5,000 randomly selected incidents published between October 2003 and November 2011. Still, the authors also recognize limitations with this approach, since many defensive incidents are never reported by victims, or when they are, never get published. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the successful self-defense outcomes are those where the defendants’ guns are presented but never fired.

Most of the actual self-defense shootings in the Cato study didn’t involve concealed carry licenses, but more typically had to do with responses to residential invasions. Of these, 488 involved home burglaries. In addition, there were 1,227 incidents where intruders were induced to flee the scene by armed inhabitants, circumstances that might otherwise have resulted in injurious assaults including rapes and murders.

There were 285 news accounts indicating that the defender had a concealed weapon license, which in the majority of these incidents took place outside a home or place of business. Pizza delivery drivers were common robbery targets.


Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

Again there are only 230 criminals killed in defense each year. If they only used deaths the number would be 230. The number is 100,000. So the claim they use only deaths is false.

 

[2aguy]

Forbes article on Cato institute study on defensive gun uses...they culled through reports to get their number...



Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually.


A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

For these reasons, the Cato researchers investigated published news reports which much more often reveal how Americans use guns in self-defense. The data set is derived from a collection of nearly 5,000 randomly selected incidents published between October 2003 and November 2011. Still, the authors also recognize limitations with this approach, since many defensive incidents are never reported by victims, or when they are, never get published. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the successful self-defense outcomes are those where the defendants’ guns are presented but never fired.

Most of the actual self-defense shootings in the Cato study didn’t involve concealed carry licenses, but more typically had to do with responses to residential invasions. Of these, 488 involved home burglaries. In addition, there were 1,227 incidents where intruders were induced to flee the scene by armed inhabitants, circumstances that might otherwise have resulted in injurious assaults including rapes and murders.

There were 285 news accounts indicating that the defender had a concealed weapon license, which in the majority of these incidents took place outside a home or place of business. Pizza delivery drivers were common robbery targets.


Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

Again there are only 230 criminals killed in defense each year. If they only used deaths the number would be 230. The number is 100,000. So the claim they use only deaths is false.

Those reports come from interviews with private citizens....that is why the NCVS is off, the FBI collects actual data.....

 

[Brain357]

Forbes article on Cato institute study on defensive gun uses...they culled through reports to get their number...



Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually.


A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

For these reasons, the Cato researchers investigated published news reports which much more often reveal how Americans use guns in self-defense. The data set is derived from a collection of nearly 5,000 randomly selected incidents published between October 2003 and November 2011. Still, the authors also recognize limitations with this approach, since many defensive incidents are never reported by victims, or when they are, never get published. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the successful self-defense outcomes are those where the defendants’ guns are presented but never fired.

Most of the actual self-defense shootings in the Cato study didn’t involve concealed carry licenses, but more typically had to do with responses to residential invasions. Of these, 488 involved home burglaries. In addition, there were 1,227 incidents where intruders were induced to flee the scene by armed inhabitants, circumstances that might otherwise have resulted in injurious assaults including rapes and murders.

There were 285 news accounts indicating that the defender had a concealed weapon license, which in the majority of these incidents took place outside a home or place of business. Pizza delivery drivers were common robbery targets.


Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

Again there are only 230 criminals killed in defense each year. If they only used deaths the number would be 230. The number is 100,000. So the claim they use only deaths is false.

Those reports come from interviews with private citizens....that is why the NCVS is off, the FBI collects actual data.....

You are still not making sense. Only 230 criminals killed each year in defense.

 

[2aguy]

Here you go Brain...."Tough Targets" from CATO on defensive gun uses...only 3 bucks for kindle.....

Tough Targets When Criminals Face Armed Resistance from Citizens White Paper - Kindle edition by David Burnett Clayton E. Cramer. Politics Social Sciences Kindle eBooks Amazon.com.

 

[2aguy]

Forbes article on Cato institute study on defensive gun uses...they culled through reports to get their number...



Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually.


A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

For these reasons, the Cato researchers investigated published news reports which much more often reveal how Americans use guns in self-defense. The data set is derived from a collection of nearly 5,000 randomly selected incidents published between October 2003 and November 2011. Still, the authors also recognize limitations with this approach, since many defensive incidents are never reported by victims, or when they are, never get published. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the successful self-defense outcomes are those where the defendants’ guns are presented but never fired.

Most of the actual self-defense shootings in the Cato study didn’t involve concealed carry licenses, but more typically had to do with responses to residential invasions. Of these, 488 involved home burglaries. In addition, there were 1,227 incidents where intruders were induced to flee the scene by armed inhabitants, circumstances that might otherwise have resulted in injurious assaults including rapes and murders.

There were 285 news accounts indicating that the defender had a concealed weapon license, which in the majority of these incidents took place outside a home or place of business. Pizza delivery drivers were common robbery targets.


Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby - Forbes

Again there are only 230 criminals killed in defense each year. If they only used deaths the number would be 230. The number is 100,000. So the claim they use only deaths is false.

Those reports come from interviews with private citizens....that is why the NCVS is off, the FBI collects actual data.....

You are still not making sense. Only 230 criminals killed each year in defense.

Okay....let's start from the beginning...where did the 230 come from....? That will help....

 

[007]

I feel bad for the officer and the family.....

How did another guy get a rifle to shoot another police officer in France? They have gun control....so no law abiding citizen can have a gun for self defense.....but criminals and terrorists have no problem getting them.....a gun control win win?

My bet is there's a lot of conversation today amongst the French citizenry about getting their guns back.

There's no news story about it, but then there more than likely wouldn't be, but I bet they're talking.

I sure the fuck would be. Some cock sucking muslims start shooting up where I lived and by God I'd want to be able to SHOOT BACK, and thank God I CAN.