Holocaust deniers

[Penelope]

Nazi Human Experiments
www.usmessageboard.com/reported-pos...ction-for-georgephillip-ignored-warnings.html

How do you excuse this? What sort of historic revisionism makes this excusable?

I was unable to use the link ,not sure why. Yes I've read about some medical studies done, or experiments and I also read about Israel ,


Israeli doctors experimented on children

A leading Israeli doctor and medical ethicist has called for the prosecution of doctors responsible for thousands of unauthorised and often illegal experiments on small children and geriatric and psychiatric patients in Israeli hospitals.
An investigation by the government watchdog, the state comptroller, has revealed that researchers in 10 public hospitals administered drugs, carried out unauthorised genetic testing or undertook painful surgery on patients unable to give informed consent or without obtaining health ministry approval.
At one hospital, staff pierced children's eardrums to apply an experimental medication yet to be approved in any country. At another, patients with senile dementia had their thumbprints applied to consent forms for experimental drugs.
Israel's health minister, Dan Naveh, said he was "shocked" at what he described as a failure of his department and some of Israel's hospitals.
Dr Jacques Michel, the former director of Hadassah hos pital who triggered the comptroller's inquiry with a public warning about the abuses in 2001, yesterday called for the prosecution of the doctors

Israeli doctors experimented on children | World news | The Guardian

 

[Penelope]

In order to have a legitimate debate on the Holocaust, you need to seperate out Conspiracy Theory type revisions that aren't supported by documented facts.

All history is open to debate, but it should be based on facts.

Frankly any proposed revisions that end up with claims about "Jewish control of the media, government, banks, and world control" leaves me highly suspect.

Agreed that should be in a separate thread, but its also important to know who is in charge of the history books and news, which has a huge tendency to be bias , we know the winners write the history.

 

[Sunni Man]

In order to have a legitimate debate on the Holocaust, you need to seperate out Conspiracy Theory type revisions that aren't supported by documented facts.

All history is open to debate, but it should be based on facts.

The problem is that even the slightest deviation from the "official" holocaust narrative is meet with screams of "your anti-semitic" and "your a nazi". .....

 

[Pennywise]

You guys keep on saying the Nazi's. Is this some PC nonsense? THEY WERE AND ARE GERMANS. They are one in the same. WTF??????????

You are a bigoted ignoramus. Check yourself into a mental health facility to determine the origins of the strange hatred you have for Germans. Maybe you are just jealous that they are the worlds greatest engineers and scientists.

 

[Pennywise]

Nazi Human Experiments
www.usmessageboard.com/reported-pos...ction-for-georgephillip-ignored-warnings.html

How do you excuse this? What sort of historic revisionism makes this excusable?

I was unable to use the link ,not sure why. Yes I've read about some medical studies done, or experiments and I also read about Israel ,


Israeli doctors experimented on children

A leading Israeli doctor and medical ethicist has called for the prosecution of doctors responsible for thousands of unauthorised and often illegal experiments on small children and geriatric and psychiatric patients in Israeli hospitals.
An investigation by the government watchdog, the state comptroller, has revealed that researchers in 10 public hospitals administered drugs, carried out unauthorised genetic testing or undertook painful surgery on patients unable to give informed consent or without obtaining health ministry approval.
At one hospital, staff pierced children's eardrums to apply an experimental medication yet to be approved in any country. At another, patients with senile dementia had their thumbprints applied to consent forms for experimental drugs.
Israel's health minister, Dan Naveh, said he was "shocked" at what he described as a failure of his department and some of Israel's hospitals.
Dr Jacques Michel, the former director of Hadassah hos pital who triggered the comptroller's inquiry with a public warning about the abuses in 2001, yesterday called for the prosecution of the doctors

Israeli doctors experimented on children | World news | The Guardian

There was a time when most advanced nations engaged in some form of human experimentation and eugenics-

Joseph DeJarnette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^^ An American

 

[Pennywise]

This is so precious-

Mendel's Law Poem, by Joseph DeJarnette, MD, witness in Buck vs. Bell case :: DNA Learning Center

Again, an American. Isn't it just the sweetest thing you have ever read?

 

[SAYIT]

Nazi Human Experiments
www.usmessageboard.com/reported-pos...ction-for-georgephillip-ignored-warnings.html

How do you excuse this? What sort of historic revisionism makes this excusable?

I was unable to use the link ,not sure why. Yes I've read about some medical studies done, or experiments and I also read about Israel ,
Israeli doctors experimented on children...

Off topic. As you must know this thread is about Holocaust deniers but your lame attempt to excuse or mitigate the barbarity of your Nazi forebears is noted.

 

[SAYIT]

In order to have a legitimate debate on the Holocaust, you need to seperate out Conspiracy Theory type revisions that aren't supported by documented facts.

All history is open to debate, but it should be based on facts.

The problem is that even the slightest deviation from the "official" holocaust narrative is meet with screams of "your anti-semitic" and "your a nazi". .....

And?

 

[Mr. H.]

Denying the Holocaust is like saying Nagasaki and Hiroshima weren't nuked.

 

[dilloduck]

In order to have a legitimate debate on the Holocaust, you need to seperate out Conspiracy Theory type revisions that aren't supported by documented facts.

All history is open to debate, but it should be based on facts.

The problem is that even the slightest deviation from the "official" holocaust narrative is meet with screams of "your anti-semitic" and "your a nazi". .....

And?

and it's angry rhetoric that doesn't serve any purpose other than to impede the search for the unbiased truth.

 

[Pennywise]

The problem is that even the slightest deviation from the "official" holocaust narrative is meet with screams of "your anti-semitic" and "your a nazi". .....

And?

and it's angry rhetoric that doesn't serve any purpose other than to impede the search for the unbiased truth.

The unbiased truth does not support the $HOAH narrative.

 

[Penelope]

Nazi Human Experiments
www.usmessageboard.com/reported-pos...ction-for-georgephillip-ignored-warnings.html

How do you excuse this? What sort of historic revisionism makes this excusable?

I was unable to use the link ,not sure why. Yes I've read about some medical studies done, or experiments and I also read about Israel ,
Israeli doctors experimented on children...

Off topic. As you must know this thread is about Holocaust deniers but your lame attempt to excuse or mitigate the barbarity of your Nazi forebears is noted.

I'm merely responding to a claim made about Hitler which has nothing to do with the holocaust, to show that its recently happening in Israel, never said it was a good thing.

 

[Penelope]

Nazi Human Experiments
www.usmessageboard.com/reported-pos...ction-for-georgephillip-ignored-warnings.html

How do you excuse this? What sort of historic revisionism makes this excusable?

I was unable to use the link ,not sure why. Yes I've read about some medical studies done, or experiments and I also read about Israel ,
Israeli doctors experimented on children...

Off topic. As you must know this thread is about Holocaust deniers but your lame attempt to excuse or mitigate the barbarity of your Nazi forebears is noted.

Its not off topic is someone brings it up, Heres Churchill, maybe Hitler got the idea from him.

Churchill and Eugenics


"The improvement of the British breed is my aim in life," Winston Churchill wrote to his cousin Ivor Guest on 19 January 1899, shortly after his twenty-fifth birthday. Churchill's view was reinforced by his experiences as a young British officer serving, and fighting, in Arab and Muslim lands, and in South Africa. Like most of his contemporaries, family and friends, he regarded races as different, racial characteristics as signs of the maturity of a society, and racial purity as endangered not only by other races but by mental weaknesses within a race. As a young politician in Britain entering Parliament in 1901, Churchill saw what were then known as the "feeble-minded" and the "insane" as a threat to the prosperity, vigour and virility of British society.


Churchill and Eugenics

 

[SAYIT]

The problem is that even the slightest deviation from the "official" holocaust narrative is meet with screams of "your anti-semitic" and "your a nazi". .....

And?

and it's angry rhetoric that doesn't serve any purpose other than to impede the search for the unbiased truth.

Holocaust Denial is "the search for the unbiased truth?"

 

[SAYIT]

I was unable to use the link ,not sure why. Yes I've read about some medical studies done, or experiments and I also read about Israel ,
Israeli doctors experimented on children...

Off topic. As you must know this thread is about Holocaust deniers but your lame attempt to excuse or mitigate the barbarity of your Nazi forebears is noted.

I'm merely responding to a claim made about Hitler which has nothing to do with the holocaust, to show that its recently happening in Israel, never said it was a good thing.

Hitler had nothing to do with the Holocaust?

 

[SAYIT]

I was unable to use the link ,not sure why. Yes I've read about some medical studies done, or experiments and I also read about Israel ,
Israeli doctors experimented on children...

Off topic. As you must know this thread is about Holocaust deniers but your lame attempt to excuse or mitigate the barbarity of your Nazi forebears is noted.

Its not off topic is someone brings it up, Heres Churchill, maybe Hitler got the idea from him.

Churchill and Eugenics


"The improvement of the British breed is my aim in life," Winston Churchill wrote to his cousin Ivor Guest on 19 January 1899, shortly after his twenty-fifth birthday. Churchill's view was reinforced by his experiences as a young British officer serving, and fighting, in Arab and Muslim lands, and in South Africa. Like most of his contemporaries, family and friends, he regarded races as different, racial characteristics as signs of the maturity of a society, and racial purity as endangered not only by other races but by mental weaknesses within a race. As a young politician in Britain entering Parliament in 1901, Churchill saw what were then known as the "feeble-minded" and the "insane" as a threat to the prosperity, vigour and virility of British society.


Churchill and Eugenics

You are squirming but there is no escape.

 

[Penelope]

Off topic. As you must know this thread is about Holocaust deniers but your lame attempt to excuse or mitigate the barbarity of your Nazi forebears is noted.

I'm merely responding to a claim made about Hitler which has nothing to do with the holocaust, to show that its recently happening in Israel, never said it was a good thing.

Hitler had nothing to do with the Holocaust?

which holocaust, there were many , it was a world war II, also you misread me, what was wrote by another poster about Hitler had nothing to do with the holocaust which is 6 mil died in gas chambers.

 

[Penelope]

Off topic. As you must know this thread is about Holocaust deniers but your lame attempt to excuse or mitigate the barbarity of your Nazi forebears is noted.

Its not off topic is someone brings it up, Heres Churchill, maybe Hitler got the idea from him.

Churchill and Eugenics


"The improvement of the British breed is my aim in life," Winston Churchill wrote to his cousin Ivor Guest on 19 January 1899, shortly after his twenty-fifth birthday. Churchill's view was reinforced by his experiences as a young British officer serving, and fighting, in Arab and Muslim lands, and in South Africa. Like most of his contemporaries, family and friends, he regarded races as different, racial characteristics as signs of the maturity of a society, and racial purity as endangered not only by other races but by mental weaknesses within a race. As a young politician in Britain entering Parliament in 1901, Churchill saw what were then known as the "feeble-minded" and the "insane" as a threat to the prosperity, vigour and virility of British society.


Churchill and Eugenics

You are squirming but there is no escape.

Not at all. Just stating some more facts that show this was not only Hitlers view, even the US had eugenics. Digging is good, keep it up ,you may not like what you find.

 

[Coyote]

Nazi Human Experiments

How do you excuse this? What sort of historic revisionism makes this excusable?

I was unable to use the link ,not sure why. Yes I've read about some medical studies done, or experiments and I also read about Israel ,


Israeli doctors experimented on children

A leading Israeli doctor and medical ethicist has called for the prosecution of doctors responsible for thousands of unauthorised and often illegal experiments on small children and geriatric and psychiatric patients in Israeli hospitals.
An investigation by the government watchdog, the state comptroller, has revealed that researchers in 10 public hospitals administered drugs, carried out unauthorised genetic testing or undertook painful surgery on patients unable to give informed consent or without obtaining health ministry approval.
At one hospital, staff pierced children's eardrums to apply an experimental medication yet to be approved in any country. At another, patients with senile dementia had their thumbprints applied to consent forms for experimental drugs.
Israel's health minister, Dan Naveh, said he was "shocked" at what he described as a failure of his department and some of Israel's hospitals.
Dr Jacques Michel, the former director of Hadassah hos pital who triggered the comptroller's inquiry with a public warning about the abuses in 2001, yesterday called for the prosecution of the doctors

Israeli doctors experimented on children | World news | The Guardian

Are you seriously trying to make a comparison here? I don't think anyone, on either side of the debate would seriously consider these equivalent.

http://www.longwood.k12.ny.us/lhs/science/mos/twins/mengele.html

Twins undergoing his experiments didn't know what the objectives were. It is known that he had a special pathology lab where he performed autopsies on twins who had died from experiements. It was located next to the cremetorium. Mengele's experiments both physical and psychological; experimental surgeries performed without anesthesia, transfusions of blood from one twin to another, isolation endurance, reaction to various stimuli, injections with lethal germs, sex change operations, the removal of organs and limbs, incestuous impregnations. One twin recalls the death of his brother:

Dr. Mengele had always been more interested in Tibi. I am not sure why--perhaps because he was the older twin. Mengele made several operations on Tibi. One surgery on his spine left my brother paralyzed. He could not walk anymore. Then they took out his sexual organs. After the fourth operation, I did not see Tibi anymore. I cannot tell you how I felt. It is impossible to put into words how I felt. They had taken away my father, my mother, my two older brothers--and now, my twin.​

Mengele injected chemicals into the eyes of children in an attempt to change their eye color. "One day we were given eye drops, " say Hedvah and Leah Stern, "Afterwards we could not see for several days. We were very frightened of the experiements. They took a lot of blood ... We fainted several times." Unfortunately a strict veil of secrecy over the experiments enabled Mengele to do his work more effectively, and "twins who were subjected to the most grusome procedures took his secrets to their graves."

Or this: Referenced Material - Isurvived.org

Not only that but it looks like Israel has a system in place to investigate, prosecute and hold accountable those that violate the law...that certainly can't be said about the Nazi's.

 

[MHunterB]

I was unable to use the link ,not sure why. Yes I've read about some medical studies done, or experiments and I also read about Israel ,
Israeli doctors experimented on children...

Off topic. As you must know this thread is about Holocaust deniers but your lame attempt to excuse or mitigate the barbarity of your Nazi forebears is noted.

I'm merely responding to a claim made about Hitler which has nothing to do with the holocaust, to show that its recently happening in Israel, never said it was a good thing.

Penelope: outrages and atrocities do not just "happen", as you put it. They are perpetrated by individuals and groups.

In the case of Nazis conducting 'medical experiments', the individuals and groups who perpetrated the evil were acting in their official capacities as representatives authorized by the government.

In the case of the Israelis per the Guardian article: they were acting with OUT any such 'authorization'.

And indeed, one could have cited the US conducting forced sterilization and the infamous 'Tuskeegee study'..... Forced sterilization is irreversible and final (as done at that time, yes): quite a big and permanent effect as compare to any clinical trials (where people can still suffer irreversible damage - BUT that is not likely or a drug wouldn't get to that point. It appears that some of these 'trials' were for 'off specs' use of meds already existing and in use.....)

Now, if one examines the CONTENT of the three different nations cited so far - it appears that the Israeli "experimentation" involved actual drugs and procedures which *might* even be useful. So this APPEARS to be on the order of 'unauthorized clinical trials' - NOT ethical.

In the American situations, there is clear violation of human rights by the medical personnel - as well as a major perversion of ethics (AND I believe LAW as well!) in not treating the 'control' group in the syphilis study (which itself was redundant).

It is true that the German 'experiments' - SOME of them - were 'practical': seeing how many times a leg bone could be broken before it just wouldn't heal, finding out just how long a person could survive immersion in 35 degree water, recording how many times a man's body would impel him to have sex with the girl who was ordered to 'warm him up' from such immersion.......

But was forcing human beings into those situations a violation of human rights? I think so.

Was it unethical? I think so.

Was it a war crime to perform such actions upon civilians? I think so.

Did it meet the criteria for 'war crimes'? For 'crimes against humanity? I think so.

And was all of that sanctioned and overseen by the official government of Germany at the time?

YES: it was 'official policy' directed against Jews, Roma, Sinta, Poles, Greeks and any other 'non-Aryans' the Nazis crossed any number of international borders in their tanks to capture.

Now perhaps you can understand the differences and similarities in a bit more depth.