Holocaust History

[Sixties Fan]

In the history of Europe, there have often been instances in which jews were driven out of cities and even entire countries, robbing and killing in the process. This went on for centuries. But representatives of these countries like to mention the "pogroms" in Russia, in which several dozen people were killed.
The usual western propaganda.

I am trying to understand the discussion.

Are you saying that Russia was good for Jews for centuries? Pogroms were not pogroms?

Thanks.

 

[Ringo]

Are you saying that Russia was good for Jews for centuries? Pogroms were not pogroms?

Was Russia nice to the jews? Compared to Europe, Russia was a jewish paradise. And before the collapse of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, when the lands of Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia, where mostly Jews lived, were ceded to Russia, there were not so many jews in Russia.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Was Russia nice to the jews? Compared to Europe, Russia was a jewish paradise. And before the collapse of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, when the lands of Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia, where mostly Jews lived, were ceded to Russia, there were not so many jews in Russia.

What was the number of Jews in Russia by early 1900s?

 

[Mushroom]

But representatives of these countries like to mention the "pogroms" in Russia, in which several dozen people were killed.

Only if we are ignorant of history. Russia has a rich history of killing Jews.

Oh I love the claim of "several dozen". Most of them numbered into the hundreds, often into the thousands. Odessa had so many that one has to identify them by year, just saying "Odessa Pogrom" is nowhere near enough. 1821, about 120. 1859, around 80. 1871, around 100. 1881, around 250. 1905, over 500. And those were only pogrom's in a single community, the ones that ravaged the countryside had much higher death tolls.

Hell, even into the 1980s they were still being prosecuted, which is why so damned many fled the Soviets to come to the West.

Hell, want a real life account, read "The Endless Steppe" by Esther Hautzig. She was 10 when the Soviets invaded Poland, and her family and many of the Jews of Vilna were rounded up and deported to Siberia. Sent there on cattle cars, they were placed un a work camp and forced to mine gypsum near Rubtaovak. Then part way through the war all the men were conscripted into the Soviet Army. Only allowed to return home after the war. Then when traveling on a student visa getting married and moving to the US.

The fact is, a lot of Jews (primarily "educated" ones) were rounded up as soon as the Soviets invaded Poland and sent to gulags. They were not saved from any kind of generosity, they were simply rounded up and put into camps along with their families because they were educated or "capitalist's". But they were still concentration camps, and they were made into slave labor. The saving of them was not done form the generosity of the Soviets.

 

[Mushroom]

What was the number of Jews in Russia by early 1900s?

That is actually hard to say, but it is believed to have been in excess of 4 million. However, over 2 million alone fled the nation between 1880 and 1928. Over 1.7 million to the US alone. But there was actually quite a sizeable number of seats held by Jews in the Russian Duma, which should give an indication of how many there were.

Today, there are an estimated 83,896 Jews living in Russia, according to their own 2021 census. But just going from millions to under 100,000 shows how thoroughly the Russians have destroyed their Jewish culture. Either though deaths, forced conversion from their faith, or exodus really does not matter.

 

[Mushroom]

And before the collapse of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, when the lands of Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia, where mostly Jews lived, were ceded to Russia, there were not so many jews in Russia.

Oh my, this is hilarious.

They did not "collapse", the Austrians, the Prussians, and the Russians simply decided that each wanted a chunk of Poland, but instead of fighting each other agreed to cut it up and divide it between the three of them. And that was done after their neighbors (most notably Russia) invaded them over and over again, each time annexing more land.

There was no "collapse", Russia simply bit of chunk after chunk until they decided to just take most of what was left in one gulp.

You know, amazingly like what they have tried with Ukraine. Taking a bite, then another bite, then trying to simply gobble up all of it.

 

[elektra]

Oh I love the claim of "several dozen". Most of them numbered into the hundreds, often into the thousands. Odessa had so many that one has to identify them by year, just saying "Odessa Pogrom" is nowhere near enough. 1821, about 120. 1859, around 80. 1871, around 100. 1881, around 250. 1905, over 500. And those were only pogrom's in a single community, the ones that ravaged the countryside had much higher death tolls.

Hell, even into the 1980s they were still being prosecuted, which is why so damned many fled the Soviets to come to the West.

Hell, want a real life account, read "The Endless Steppe" by Esther Hautzig. She was 10 when the Soviets invaded Poland, and her family and many of the Jews of Vilna were rounded up and deported to Siberia. Sent there on cattle cars, they were placed un a work camp and forced to mine gypsum near Rubtaovak. Then part way through the war all the men were conscripted into the Soviet Army. Only allowed to return home after the war. Then when traveling on a student visa getting married and moving to the US.

The fact is, a lot of Jews (primarily "educated" ones) were rounded up as soon as the Soviets invaded Poland and sent to gulags. They were not saved from any kind of generosity, they were simply rounded up and put into camps along with their families because they were educated or "capitalist's". But they were still concentration camps, and they were made into slave labor. The saving of them was not done form the generosity of the Soviets.

thanks for the book recommendation, sounds like a good one to add to my collection.

 

[Sixties Fan]

That is actually hard to say, but it is believed to have been in excess of 4 million. However, over 2 million alone fled the nation between 1880 and 1928. Over 1.7 million to the US alone. But there was actually quite a sizeable number of seats held by Jews in the Russian Duma, which should give an indication of how many there were.

Today, there are an estimated 83,896 Jews living in Russia, according to their own 2021 census. But just going from millions to under 100,000 shows how thoroughly the Russians have destroyed their Jewish culture. Either though deaths, forced conversion from their faith, or exodus really does not matter.

I asked because in 1903 we have the infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" forgery written by the Czar people which started some horrible pogroms for about 3 years.

And that forgery got around the world, making Jew haters hate Jews even more. Which, added to everything else, led to the Holocaust, the decision by the Nazis and the Nazi sympathizer Al Hussaini, to eventually terminate all Jews.

Some people like to just wash it all off, change facts, history. It looks better for them.

 

[Mushroom]

thanks for the book recommendation, sounds like a good one to add to my collection.

It really is a good book, and Esther was a very good writer. She was already an author when she wrote it, mostly books relating to cooking and crafts. And it was after Adlai Stevenson heard her give a talk about her experiences growing up in Poland and her exile to Siberia that he urged her to write a book about the experience. I first read it over 4 decades ago, and still remember it clearly to this day.

But one thing is clear when reading it through the eyes of an adult, they were not "saved" by the Soviets out of kindness. They were sent to a forced labor camp essentially as slaves because they were "class enemies".



After the war she married concert pianist Walter Hautzig, and wrote many books. In her later years translating books from Yiddish and Hebrew into English and other languages. Including the lost master's thesis of her uncle, a mathematician who died in the Holocaust. Her daughter is Deborah Hautzig, who is most well known for her "Little Witch" series, as well as others.

 

[Mushroom]

I asked because in 1903 we have the infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" forgery written by the Czar people which started some horrible pogroms for about 3 years.

Well, I have looked and never found any actual census from Czarist Russia giving the exact number of Jews in the Empire at the time. But the number who fled should give an idea of how many there once were. Over 1.7 million leaving for the US alone is a clue that their number was once in the tens of millions. And in modern Russia, they claim there are under 100,000 today.

And more fled after then. Especially the Ashkenazi, with over 200,000 being allowed to leave and move to the US in the 1970s. And over 100,000 fleeing to the US and over 2 million to Israel in the 1980s. For those of us alive in the 1980s, most knew of the "Refusenick's", those Jews who wanted to leave the Soviet Union because of discrimination and being accused of being "Social Parasites" by the Soviet State. And much of it ultimately relates to their refusal to give up their religion and live as "good comrades" as atheists in the perfect atheist Soviet Union.

 

[irosie91]

I am trying to understand the discussion.

Are you saying that Russia was good for Jews for centuries? Pogroms were not pogroms?

Thanks.

I am not happy to bring it up----but, uhm.....UKRAINE was no better (well ---back then)

 

[Sixties Fan]

I am not happy to bring it up----but, uhm.....UKRAINE was no better (well ---back then)

It was all part of the Russian Empire, USSR.

If a country or Empire is primarily Christian, one should not expect it to be kind to Jews.

 

[Ringo]

It was all part of the Russian Empire, USSR.
If a country or Empire is primarily Christian, one should not expect it to be kind to Jews.

 

[irosie91]

It was all part of the Russian Empire, USSR.

If a country or Empire is primarily Christian, one should not expect it to be kind to Jews.

so true-----as it is with muslim countries.-----BUT hindu countries are ok---and
Buddhist-----and, once upon a time ---ZOROASTRIAN----but then islam happened
to them, too

 

[Mushroom]

If a country or Empire is primarily Christian, one should not expect it to be kind to Jews.

Why is that? It has been a problem in the US in pockets, but the nation from the very founding insisted on Freedom of Religion for a reason.

The US is "primarily Christian", where are the pogroms there?

 

[Mushroom]

View attachment 804246

View attachment 804247

And unsourced quote, that is supposed to mean something?

And yes, I discussed already that "evacuation eastward". It was not "evacuation", it was imprisonment in gulags for those who were guilty to the Soviets of being "Class Enemies". That is why they were "evacuated" all the way to Siberia.

And once they were allowed to leave, almost all Jews have fled first the Soviet Union then Russia. There used to be millions of Jews in Russia, less than 100,000 are left.

Probably the only other nation that had such a large Jewish population and has since seen most of them flee was Iran.

Oh, and "Most Soviet Jews" lived in areas that Germany occupied because they were forced to live there! The Czars set up the "Pale Settlements", and all Jews were forced to live there. And the SOviets continued those practices, refusing to let them move elsewhere.

Once again, your attempts at propaganda fail when smashed with real history.



In reality, the entire Pale was little more than a nation sized Jewish Ghetto. Of course, it also helps if one knows what a "Ghetto" actually is. And I bet you don't know what it is.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Why is that? It has been a problem in the US in pockets, but the nation from the very founding insisted on Freedom of Religion for a reason.

The US is "primarily Christian", where are the pogroms there?

It primarily happened in the old world, although the US did not do right by Jews when it came to help them during WWII.

Countries in the new world, like Brazil, are known to have expelled its Jews in at least one of its States at the end of the 19th century.

Pogroms, or expulsions, or just attacks, it is a mainstay of many in the Christian world who did not and do not see Jews as equal to them, due to what they were taught.

 

[Mushroom]

It primarily happened in the old world, although the US did not do right by Jews when it came to help them during WWII.

That is nowhere near the same thing. Are you forgetting that the US at the time was in the midst of the Depression, and had record unemployment? Between 1924 and 1930 President Hoover banned almost all immigration to the US, and it dropped to as low as 16,000 in 1930. And it had hardly moved up from that in the decade afterwards. They did accept over 100,000, but emigration to the US for almost all groups was cut off during that time, not just for Jews.

Heck, President Hoover even deported over 1 million Mexicans who had been living legally in the US because there was a strong anti-immigration movement at the time. So that has nothing to do with them being Jews.

 

[Ringo]

And unsourced quote, that is supposed to mean something?

And yes, I discussed already that "evacuation eastward". It was not "evacuation", it was imprisonment in gulags for those who were guilty to the Soviets of being "Class Enemies". That is why they were "evacuated" all the way to Siberia.

Oh, and "Most Soviet Jews" lived in areas that Germany occupied because they were forced to live there! The Czars set up the "Pale Settlements", and all Jews were forced to live there. And the SOviets continued those practices, refusing to let them move elsewhere.

What a scum you are... I was married to a Jewish woman and she told me that it was absolutely certain that the jews were evacuated in the first place. There were those who wanted to stay, believing in the "civility" of europeans. And of course, the rapidity of the nazis' advance in the first months made it impossible to completely evacuate the jews. Only Nazi nits like you can claim that jews were "evacuated" to the Gulag, once again, you scum and bastard.

Another lie from a nazi scumbag. No one prevented Jews from moving during the Soviet era. I lived in different places of the USSR, from north to south, and I saw Jews everywhere.

 

[Sixties Fan]

What a scum you are... I was married to a Jewish woman and she told me that it was absolutely certain that the jews were evacuated in the first place. There were those who wanted to stay, believing in the "civility" of europeans. And of course, the rapidity of the nazis' advance in the first months made it impossible to completely evacuate the jews. Only Nazi nits like you can claim that jews were "evacuated" to the Gulag, once again, you scum and bastard.

Another lie from a nazi scumbag. No one prevented Jews from moving during the Soviet era. I lived in different places of the USSR, from north to south, and I saw Jews everywhere.

Well, great. You were married to a Jewish person and you come here and call a Jew you disagree with a NAZI ????????

You are done here Ringo. Thank you for your contribution to this thread.