elektra
Platinum Member
- Dec 1, 2013
- 25,652
- 11,939
argue facts with a liar?it's easy to believe especially when you don't have a rebuttal saying the opposite
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argue facts with a liar?it's easy to believe especially when you don't have a rebuttal saying the opposite
Call for back up. Follow suspect until help arrives. Use pepper spray if necessary. Use a taser if necessary. Do something besides murder an unarmed person like a dog in the street. Shoot as a last resort, not as a first action.Maybe so, I agree. But, still, there was no cause to murder him. The cops could've arrested him and tried him in a court of law. There were other ways to handle the situation since he was unarmed.There was no trial. No proof other the word of the officer. And, he could've been arrested and jailed. The officer could've called for back up. The officer could've followed him until assistance arrived. There were several other ways it could've been handled besides murder.
AND
MB could have submitted to a lawful order
See how easy the world really works
So you would try and fight a 300 hundred pound dude who is an obvious law breaker?
How about if he attacked a women cop? Or maybe a 115 lb little old man?
Calling for back up isn't always an option. Do you really believe Wilson just shot MB in cold blood when officer Wilson had no idea if multiple witnesses were watching?
That is so unbelievable it's ludicrous.
argue facts with a liar?it's easy to believe especially when you don't have a rebuttal saying the opposite
Call for back up. Follow suspect until help arrives. Use pepper spray if necessary. Use a taser if necessary. Do something besides murder an unarmed person like a dog in the street. Shoot as a last resort, not as a first action.Maybe so, I agree. But, still, there was no cause to murder him. The cops could've arrested him and tried him in a court of law. There were other ways to handle the situation since he was unarmed.AND
MB could have submitted to a lawful order
See how easy the world really works
So you would try and fight a 300 hundred pound dude who is an obvious law breaker?
How about if he attacked a women cop? Or maybe a 115 lb little old man?
Calling for back up isn't always an option. Do you really believe Wilson just shot MB in cold blood when officer Wilson had no idea if multiple witnesses were watching?
That is so unbelievable it's ludicrous.
Not really. There were at least 4 shootings of unarmed black men by cops in Ferguson in just the month before Brown's death, and many, more over the previous years with not one cop ever found to have used excessive force. It was just something that happened over, and over, and over. What do you think the odds of him being found guilty were, no matter what the circumstances were?
We already have the U.S. Constitution. We already have laws that imply equal and fair justice. Yes, we could amend what we have to make points a lot clearer and easier to interpret. We need to reestablish true justice in our courtrooms. We need to do away with giving a free pass to politicians, members of law enforcement, and others that seem to always either get away with crime, or get a mere slap on the wrist.Good point, Sonny Clark
I think you nailed it, the "conflicts of interest" that are political
Right now our laws only define conflicts of interest in terms of proven contracts and financial transactions exchanged.
What about political conflicts of interest?
These are subjective and harder to prove intent or causality.
That's why my whole neighborhood got destroyed by abuse of taxpayer's money.
No conflict of interest could be PROVEN because the developers and politicians who did this consulted with lawyers.
They know the grey areas and used all the loopholes they could.
See Code of Ethics for Govt Service ethics-commission.net
"Any person in Government service should:
"I. Put loyalty to the highest moral principles and to country above loyalty to persons, party, or Government department.
"II. Uphold the Constitution, laws, and regulations of the United States and of all governments therein and never be a party to their evasion.
"III. Give a full day's labor for a full day's pay; giving earnest effort and best thought to the performance of duties.
"IV. Seek to find and employ more efficient and economical ways of getting tasks accomplished.
"V. Never discriminate unfairly by the dispensing of special favors or privileges to anyone, whether for remuneration or not; and never accept, for himself or herself or for family members, favors or benefits under circumstances which might be construed by reasonable persons as influencing the performance of governmental duties.
"VI. Make no private promises of any kind binding upon the duties of office, since a Governmental employee has no private word which can be binding on public duty.
"VII. Engage in no business with the Government, either directly or indirectly, which is inconsistent with the conscientious performance of governmental duties.
"VIII. Never use any information gained confidentially in the performance of governmental duties as a means of making a private profit.
"IX. Expose corruption wherever discovered.
"X. Uphold these principles, ever conscious that public office is a public trust.
Dante pointed out that literally and legally these 10 articles only apply to civil servants in federal govt.
Sonny Clark what about the idea of incorporating these like the Bill of Rights
where EVERYONE in any level of govt or public institution has to follow them
and also set up a grievance process to redress complaints of abuses by citizens.
And just like OSHA and the codes for health and safety,
the agency or agents complained of receive a warning or citation,
naming the Amendments or Articles they are accused of violating,
and a hearing is held to review the complaints and issue corrections.
If Ralph Nader, a consumer advocate, can write up legislation that created
OSHA, the review and penalty system, and the consumer protection act,
why not create a Constitutional ethics review and redress system.
That resolves conflicts by consensus so people are accountable to each other directly.
and any "conflicts of interest" have to be resolved, or there won't be agreement if
someone on any side is playing games.
Whether or not he actually attacked the officer is a matter of debate. Some witnesses says no, some say yes. There's no video to prove one way or the other.The guy was a punk. The police behavior made that more prevalent in the neighborhood.
No,the lack of proper upbringing made that prevalent.
His father was a gang member,is it any wonder he turned out like he did?
If the cycle isnt broken this shit will continue to happen.
Nothing pisses me off more than to hear the dead criminals parents/parent blame the police when they are the ones to blame.
And if I hear "he was such a nice boy"one more time I'm gonna puke.
I already told you I think he was probably a punk. I didn't trust the investigation done by local police because they showed a callous disregard for the rights of the peaceful protestors, but I do trust the DOJ. Contrary to right wing rhetoric, they didn't have a vested interest in the results of the investigation. Bad parents are a terrible problem, and I don't have any more idea how to completely solve that problem than you do, but cops are hired to deal fairly with everybody. It's their job. They aren't allowed to abuse their power just because it is a hard job.
When you attack a cop you forfeit your rights to a trial.
Deal with it in the courtroom not on the street.
So now the cop is judge, jury, and executioner? I believe most cops are probably good, but I'm not naïve enough to think more than a few aren't. With the power given to them, they should be held to a higher standard than others.
No, Michael Brown served as his own judge when he disobeyed a lawful order AND attact the officer doing his job.
Would you allow your own death for a paycheck?
Cops are trained to defend themselves. They carry pepper spray, tasers, batons, maze, MagLites ( heavy flashlights ), and they have radios to call for help.The guy was a punk. The police behavior made that more prevalent in the neighborhood.
No,the lack of proper upbringing made that prevalent.
His father was a gang member,is it any wonder he turned out like he did?
If the cycle isnt broken this shit will continue to happen.
Nothing pisses me off more than to hear the dead criminals parents/parent blame the police when they are the ones to blame.
And if I hear "he was such a nice boy"one more time I'm gonna puke.
I already told you I think he was probably a punk. I didn't trust the investigation done by local police because they showed a callous disregard for the rights of the peaceful protestors, but I do trust the DOJ. Contrary to right wing rhetoric, they didn't have a vested interest in the results of the investigation. Bad parents are a terrible problem, and I don't have any more idea how to completely solve that problem than you do, but cops are hired to deal fairly with everybody. It's their job. They aren't allowed to abuse their power just because it is a hard job.
When you attack a cop you forfeit your rights to a trial.
Deal with it in the courtroom not on the street.
I know what a maglight is,I have four or five of em. And I dont give a rats ass how much training you may have a 300 lb dude is most likely going to kick your ass unless you're a MMA fighter.
What about calling for back up? Pepper spray? Mace? Get back in patrol car and follow until back up arrived?Cops are trained to defend themselves. They carry pepper spray, tasers, batons, maze, MagLites ( heavy flashlights ), and they have radios to call for help.The guy was a punk. The police behavior made that more prevalent in the neighborhood.
No,the lack of proper upbringing made that prevalent.
His father was a gang member,is it any wonder he turned out like he did?
If the cycle isnt broken this shit will continue to happen.
Nothing pisses me off more than to hear the dead criminals parents/parent blame the police when they are the ones to blame.
And if I hear "he was such a nice boy"one more time I'm gonna puke.
I already told you I think he was probably a punk. I didn't trust the investigation done by local police because they showed a callous disregard for the rights of the peaceful protestors, but I do trust the DOJ. Contrary to right wing rhetoric, they didn't have a vested interest in the results of the investigation. Bad parents are a terrible problem, and I don't have any more idea how to completely solve that problem than you do, but cops are hired to deal fairly with everybody. It's their job. They aren't allowed to abuse their power just because it is a hard job.
When you attack a cop you forfeit your rights to a trial.
Deal with it in the courtroom not on the street.
I know what a maglight is,I have four or five of em. And I dont give a rats ass how much training you may have a 300 lb dude is most likely going to kick your ass unless you're a MMA fighter.
Cops are trained to defend themselves. They carry pepper spray, tasers, batons, maze, MagLites ( heavy flashlights ), and they have radios to call for help.No,the lack of proper upbringing made that prevalent.
His father was a gang member,is it any wonder he turned out like he did?
If the cycle isnt broken this shit will continue to happen.
Nothing pisses me off more than to hear the dead criminals parents/parent blame the police when they are the ones to blame.
And if I hear "he was such a nice boy"one more time I'm gonna puke.
I already told you I think he was probably a punk. I didn't trust the investigation done by local police because they showed a callous disregard for the rights of the peaceful protestors, but I do trust the DOJ. Contrary to right wing rhetoric, they didn't have a vested interest in the results of the investigation. Bad parents are a terrible problem, and I don't have any more idea how to completely solve that problem than you do, but cops are hired to deal fairly with everybody. It's their job. They aren't allowed to abuse their power just because it is a hard job.
When you attack a cop you forfeit your rights to a trial.
Deal with it in the courtroom not on the street.
I know what a maglight is,I have four or five of em. And I dont give a rats ass how much training you may have a 300 lb dude is most likely going to kick your ass unless you're a MMA fighter.
I guess you would have to be 6' 4" and have had police training to stand up to something like that. Oh wait.......he was, and he did.
Call for back up. Follow suspect until help arrives. Use pepper spray if necessary. Use a taser if necessary. Do something besides murder an unarmed person like a dog in the street. Shoot as a last resort, not as a first action.Maybe so, I agree. But, still, there was no cause to murder him. The cops could've arrested him and tried him in a court of law. There were other ways to handle the situation since he was unarmed.
So you would try and fight a 300 hundred pound dude who is an obvious law breaker?
How about if he attacked a women cop? Or maybe a 115 lb little old man?
Calling for back up isn't always an option. Do you really believe Wilson just shot MB in cold blood when officer Wilson had no idea if multiple witnesses were watching?
That is so unbelievable it's ludicrous.
Not really. There were at least 4 shootings of unarmed black men by cops in Ferguson in just the month before Brown's death, and many, more over the previous years with not one cop ever found to have used excessive force. It was just something that happened over, and over, and over. What do you think the odds of him being found guilty were, no matter what the circumstances were?
You got a link?
Cops are trained to defend themselves. They carry pepper spray, tasers, batons, maze, MagLites ( heavy flashlights ), and they have radios to call for help.I already told you I think he was probably a punk. I didn't trust the investigation done by local police because they showed a callous disregard for the rights of the peaceful protestors, but I do trust the DOJ. Contrary to right wing rhetoric, they didn't have a vested interest in the results of the investigation. Bad parents are a terrible problem, and I don't have any more idea how to completely solve that problem than you do, but cops are hired to deal fairly with everybody. It's their job. They aren't allowed to abuse their power just because it is a hard job.
When you attack a cop you forfeit your rights to a trial.
Deal with it in the courtroom not on the street.
I know what a maglight is,I have four or five of em. And I dont give a rats ass how much training you may have a 300 lb dude is most likely going to kick your ass unless you're a MMA fighter.
I guess you would have to be 6' 4" and have had police training to stand up to something like that. Oh wait.......he was, and he did.
So you truly believe cops have the skills of an MMA fighter?
What about calling for back up? Pepper spray? Mace? Get back in patrol car and follow until back up arrived?Cops are trained to defend themselves. They carry pepper spray, tasers, batons, maze, MagLites ( heavy flashlights ), and they have radios to call for help.No,the lack of proper upbringing made that prevalent.
His father was a gang member,is it any wonder he turned out like he did?
If the cycle isnt broken this shit will continue to happen.
Nothing pisses me off more than to hear the dead criminals parents/parent blame the police when they are the ones to blame.
And if I hear "he was such a nice boy"one more time I'm gonna puke.
I already told you I think he was probably a punk. I didn't trust the investigation done by local police because they showed a callous disregard for the rights of the peaceful protestors, but I do trust the DOJ. Contrary to right wing rhetoric, they didn't have a vested interest in the results of the investigation. Bad parents are a terrible problem, and I don't have any more idea how to completely solve that problem than you do, but cops are hired to deal fairly with everybody. It's their job. They aren't allowed to abuse their power just because it is a hard job.
When you attack a cop you forfeit your rights to a trial.
Deal with it in the courtroom not on the street.
I know what a maglight is,I have four or five of em. And I dont give a rats ass how much training you may have a 300 lb dude is most likely going to kick your ass unless you're a MMA fighter.
Call for back up. Follow suspect until help arrives. Use pepper spray if necessary. Use a taser if necessary. Do something besides murder an unarmed person like a dog in the street. Shoot as a last resort, not as a first action.So you would try and fight a 300 hundred pound dude who is an obvious law breaker?
How about if he attacked a women cop? Or maybe a 115 lb little old man?
Calling for back up isn't always an option. Do you really believe Wilson just shot MB in cold blood when officer Wilson had no idea if multiple witnesses were watching?
That is so unbelievable it's ludicrous.
Not really. There were at least 4 shootings of unarmed black men by cops in Ferguson in just the month before Brown's death, and many, more over the previous years with not one cop ever found to have used excessive force. It was just something that happened over, and over, and over. What do you think the odds of him being found guilty were, no matter what the circumstances were?
You got a link?
Sure
Cops are trained to defend themselves. They carry pepper spray, tasers, batons, maze, MagLites ( heavy flashlights ), and they have radios to call for help.When you attack a cop you forfeit your rights to a trial.
Deal with it in the courtroom not on the street.
I know what a maglight is,I have four or five of em. And I dont give a rats ass how much training you may have a 300 lb dude is most likely going to kick your ass unless you're a MMA fighter.
I guess you would have to be 6' 4" and have had police training to stand up to something like that. Oh wait.......he was, and he did.
So you truly believe cops have the skills of an MMA fighter?
Don't know. I do know he had police training. Do you believe Brown had skills of an MMA fighter?
At 300 lbs do you really need em?
What about calling for back up? Pepper spray? Mace? Get back in patrol car and follow until back up arrived?Cops are trained to defend themselves. They carry pepper spray, tasers, batons, maze, MagLites ( heavy flashlights ), and they have radios to call for help.I already told you I think he was probably a punk. I didn't trust the investigation done by local police because they showed a callous disregard for the rights of the peaceful protestors, but I do trust the DOJ. Contrary to right wing rhetoric, they didn't have a vested interest in the results of the investigation. Bad parents are a terrible problem, and I don't have any more idea how to completely solve that problem than you do, but cops are hired to deal fairly with everybody. It's their job. They aren't allowed to abuse their power just because it is a hard job.
When you attack a cop you forfeit your rights to a trial.
Deal with it in the courtroom not on the street.
I know what a maglight is,I have four or five of em. And I dont give a rats ass how much training you may have a 300 lb dude is most likely going to kick your ass unless you're a MMA fighter.
I promise you I could kill you long before back up arrived and be long gone.
And do you really think MB or anyone trying to avoid police are going to run down the street so you could follow them in a car?
Call for back up. Follow suspect until help arrives. Use pepper spray if necessary. Use a taser if necessary. Do something besides murder an unarmed person like a dog in the street. Shoot as a last resort, not as a first action.So you would try and fight a 300 hundred pound dude who is an obvious law breaker?
How about if he attacked a women cop? Or maybe a 115 lb little old man?
Calling for back up isn't always an option. Do you really believe Wilson just shot MB in cold blood when officer Wilson had no idea if multiple witnesses were watching?
That is so unbelievable it's ludicrous.
Not really. There were at least 4 shootings of unarmed black men by cops in Ferguson in just the month before Brown's death, and many, more over the previous years with not one cop ever found to have used excessive force. It was just something that happened over, and over, and over. What do you think the odds of him being found guilty were, no matter what the circumstances were?
You got a link?
Sure
Exactly How Often Do Police Shoot Unarmed Black Men Mother Jones
What about calling for back up? Pepper spray? Mace? Get back in patrol car and follow until back up arrived?Cops are trained to defend themselves. They carry pepper spray, tasers, batons, maze, MagLites ( heavy flashlights ), and they have radios to call for help.When you attack a cop you forfeit your rights to a trial.
Deal with it in the courtroom not on the street.
I know what a maglight is,I have four or five of em. And I dont give a rats ass how much training you may have a 300 lb dude is most likely going to kick your ass unless you're a MMA fighter.
I promise you I could kill you long before back up arrived and be long gone.
And do you really think MB or anyone trying to avoid police are going to run down the street so you could follow them in a car?
Was it really that important for him to be dead right then? The town isn't that big. Cops would have easily rounded him up even if it took a day or two to do it.
Law enforcement agencies investigating law enforcement agencies, or their members, does not impress me. Now, if an independent agency, experienced in these types of cases did the investigating, then I'd be impressed and satisfied. When an agency investigates it's own members, what are we to think?So the story goes. But, there were several different version of that story.And still there was no murder. I will not allow myself the luxury of second guessing a man who was attacked by a 300 pounder who refused a lawful order and came back to do more damage.
Not after the UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL agreed with the grand jury. Case closed.
Just to be clear. I take NO JOY in a young man losing his life. But the truth is, he caused it, he could have stopped it.
Good point, Sonny Clark
I think you nailed it, the "conflicts of interest" that are political
Right now our laws only define conflicts of interest in terms of proven contracts and financial transactions exchanged.
What about political conflicts of interest?
These are subjective and harder to prove intent or causality.
That's why my whole neighborhood got destroyed by abuse of taxpayer's money.
No conflict of interest could be PROVEN because the developers and politicians who did this consulted with lawyers.
They know the grey areas and used all the loopholes they could.
See Code of Ethics for Govt Service ethics-commission.net
"Any person in Government service should:
"I. Put loyalty to the highest moral principles and to country above loyalty to persons, party, or Government department.
"II. Uphold the Constitution, laws, and regulations of the United States and of all governments therein and never be a party to their evasion.
"III. Give a full day's labor for a full day's pay; giving earnest effort and best thought to the performance of duties.
"IV. Seek to find and employ more efficient and economical ways of getting tasks accomplished.
"V. Never discriminate unfairly by the dispensing of special favors or privileges to anyone, whether for remuneration or not; and never accept, for himself or herself or for family members, favors or benefits under circumstances which might be construed by reasonable persons as influencing the performance of governmental duties.
"VI. Make no private promises of any kind binding upon the duties of office, since a Governmental employee has no private word which can be binding on public duty.
"VII. Engage in no business with the Government, either directly or indirectly, which is inconsistent with the conscientious performance of governmental duties.
"VIII. Never use any information gained confidentially in the performance of governmental duties as a means of making a private profit.
"IX. Expose corruption wherever discovered.
"X. Uphold these principles, ever conscious that public office is a public trust.
Dante pointed out that literally and legally these 10 articles only apply to civil servants in federal govt.
Sonny Clark what about the idea of incorporating these like the Bill of Rights
where EVERYONE in any level of govt or public institution has to follow them
and also set up a grievance process to redress complaints of abuses by citizens.
And just like OSHA and the codes for health and safety,
the agency or agents complained of receive a warning or citation,
naming the Amendments or Articles they are accused of violating,
and a hearing is held to review the complaints and issue corrections.
If Ralph Nader, a consumer advocate, can write up legislation that created
OSHA, the review and penalty system, and the consumer protection act,
why not create a Constitutional ethics review and redress system.
That resolves conflicts by consensus so people are accountable to each other directly.
and any "conflicts of interest" have to be resolved, or there won't be agreement if
someone on any side is playing games.
I can't think of a single person who could possibly disagree with any of that, except, of course, the politicians who are the only ones who are capable of enacting any of it. They don't even want to limit superPacs. They would laugh at that list as they wadded it up and threw it in the trash.
What about calling for back up? Pepper spray? Mace? Get back in patrol car and follow until back up arrived?Cops are trained to defend themselves. They carry pepper spray, tasers, batons, maze, MagLites ( heavy flashlights ), and they have radios to call for help.
I know what a maglight is,I have four or five of em. And I dont give a rats ass how much training you may have a 300 lb dude is most likely going to kick your ass unless you're a MMA fighter.
I promise you I could kill you long before back up arrived and be long gone.
And do you really think MB or anyone trying to avoid police are going to run down the street so you could follow them in a car?
Was it really that important for him to be dead right then? The town isn't that big. Cops would have easily rounded him up even if it took a day or two to do it.
So who's to say MB wouldnt go out and kill someone in the meantime?
MB is responsible for his own death.
Call for back up. Follow suspect until help arrives. Use pepper spray if necessary. Use a taser if necessary. Do something besides murder an unarmed person like a dog in the street. Shoot as a last resort, not as a first action.
Calling for back up isn't always an option. Do you really believe Wilson just shot MB in cold blood when officer Wilson had no idea if multiple witnesses were watching?
That is so unbelievable it's ludicrous.
Not really. There were at least 4 shootings of unarmed black men by cops in Ferguson in just the month before Brown's death, and many, more over the previous years with not one cop ever found to have used excessive force. It was just something that happened over, and over, and over. What do you think the odds of him being found guilty were, no matter what the circumstances were?
You got a link?
Sure
I know what a maglight is,I have four or five of em. And I dont give a rats ass how much training you may have a 300 lb dude is most likely going to kick your ass unless you're a MMA fighter.
I guess you would have to be 6' 4" and have had police training to stand up to something like that. Oh wait.......he was, and he did.
So you truly believe cops have the skills of an MMA fighter?
Don't know. I do know he had police training. Do you believe Brown had skills of an MMA fighter?
At 300 lbs do you really need em?
Whether or not he actually attacked the officer is a matter of debate. Some witnesses says no, some say yes. There's no video to prove one way or the other.No,the lack of proper upbringing made that prevalent.
His father was a gang member,is it any wonder he turned out like he did?
If the cycle isnt broken this shit will continue to happen.
Nothing pisses me off more than to hear the dead criminals parents/parent blame the police when they are the ones to blame.
And if I hear "he was such a nice boy"one more time I'm gonna puke.
I already told you I think he was probably a punk. I didn't trust the investigation done by local police because they showed a callous disregard for the rights of the peaceful protestors, but I do trust the DOJ. Contrary to right wing rhetoric, they didn't have a vested interest in the results of the investigation. Bad parents are a terrible problem, and I don't have any more idea how to completely solve that problem than you do, but cops are hired to deal fairly with everybody. It's their job. They aren't allowed to abuse their power just because it is a hard job.
When you attack a cop you forfeit your rights to a trial.
Deal with it in the courtroom not on the street.
So now the cop is judge, jury, and executioner? I believe most cops are probably good, but I'm not naïve enough to think more than a few aren't. With the power given to them, they should be held to a higher standard than others.
No, Michael Brown served as his own judge when he disobeyed a lawful order AND attact the officer doing his job.
Would you allow your own death for a paycheck?