How Can You Be A Socialist….

[danielpalos]

...and have any self respect?
After all, if your worth is due to that which is taken from someone else, someone who earned it....your value is nothing more than the vote you offer up to your patron, big government.

In full disclosure, the title of the thread is just as cogent if other terms are substituted for 'socialist,' terms such as communist, fascist, Progressive, Nazi or modern Liberal.

1. "Socialism is the end of all invention; it is the happy face of slavery. Mankind are greater gainers by suffering each other to live as seems good to themselves than by compelling each to live as seems good to the rest" - J.S. Mill




2. " Capitalism is the only moral system because it requires human beings to deal with one another as traders–that is, as free moral agents trading and selling goods and services on the basis of mutual consent.

Capitalism is the only just system because the sole criterion that determines the value of thing exchanged is the free, voluntary, universal judgement of the consumer. Coercion and fraud are anathema to the free-market system.

It is both moral and just because the degree to which man rises or falls in society is determined by the degree to which he uses his mind. Capitalism is the only social system that rewards merit, ability and achievement, regardless of one’s birth or station in life."

The requirements for success in a free society demand that ordinary citizens order their lives in accordance with certain virtues–namely, rationality, independence, industriousness, prudence, frugality, etc. In a free capitalist society individuals must choose for themselves how they will order their lives and the values they will pursue. Under socialism, most of life’s decisions are made for you.




3. Under socialism a ruling class of intellectuals, bureaucrats and social planners decide what people want or what is good for society and then use the coercive power of the State to regulate, tax, and redistribute the wealth of those who work for a living. In other words, socialism is a form of legalized theft.

The morality of socialism can be summed-up in two words: envy and self-sacrifice.
Envy is the desire to not only possess another’s wealth but also the desire to see another’s wealth lowered to the level of one’s own.

Socialism’s teaching on self-sacrifice was nicely summarized by two of its greatest defenders, Hermann Goering and Bennito Mussolini.

The highest principle of Nazism (National Socialism), said Goering, is: “Common good comes before private good.”

Fascism, said Mussolini, is ” a life in which the individual, through the sacrifice of his own private interests…realizes that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies.



4. Sadly, America is no longer a capitalist nation. We live under what is more properly called a mixed economy–that is, an economic system that permits private property, but only at the discretion of government planners. A little bit of capitalism and a little bit of socialism.

When government redistributes wealth through taxation, when it attempts to control and regulate business production and trade, who are the winners and losers? Under this kind of economy the winners and losers are reversed: the winners are those who scream the loudest for a handout and the losers are those quiet citizens who work hard and pay their taxes." Socialism vs. Capitalism: Which is the Moral System | Ashbrook



Nazi...national socialism....based on nationalism and/or race...
Communism....international socialism.

Socialism starts with a social contract like our federal Constitution. That is why.

The Constitution isn't a contract.

Yes, it is.

When did I consent to this "contract?"

Renounce your citizenship, Person of the People.

 

[danielpalos]

LOL, I was kind of hoping for mature responses. I guess I momentarily forgot who I was talking to.

Well, what is the difference between robbery and taxation from one to give to another? I broke it down to it's basic elements.

Tukacuklul is a great hunter and trapper. Ikapucapoop is a lazy shit, or he is an idiot. Ikapucapoop is freezing in the winter, so Ikapucapoop gets a few friends and they go to Tukacuklul and demand that he share his hides with them. When Tukacuklul refuses, they appoint a chief to rule all in the land. That chief raises an army and with that army, the chief demands resources from all who have something to give. Chief takes Tukacuklul's hides and distributes to his subjects. Ikapucapoop gets a hide.

Taxation and redistribution.

Nobody takes the right wing seriously about economics or the law.

The rich just got richer on the Peoples' dime.

 

[NYcarbineer]

That's bullshit. There were all sorts of capitalist enterprises that used slaves for their labor.

I don't see how that makes his statement bullshit.

Capitalism isn't about serving your fellow man. It's the opposite. It's about profit from winning the sale away from your fellow man. It's about convincing your customer to pay more for your good. You go into business because you want to make a living. Otherwise you'd be volunteering at the soup kitchen.

The point of sale is just a mechanism to convert your good to cash. Businesses say they are all about the customer as a way to differentiate themselves. This is done to get more revenue, not because they are actually in love with their customer. The proof is in corporate ownership. They don't say at the shareholders meeting "go be really nice to your customers." They say "make me more got dam money."

Off topic. This system fails bevause it is explicitly selfish. Given enough time it will consume or destroy itself. Mix in some socialism and firm rules at key points and this can be prevented.

Competition is a good thing

I didn't say it wasnt. Glad were on the same page.

1.Let's stipulate from the start, that you're a moron.

2. Would I be correct that you are a government school grad?
Why are you running from this question?

Afraid I might ask you to name a few books you've read on the subject?

That would be embarrassing, wouldn't it.


3. Did I thrash you enough about capitalism vs command and control economies?
No?

Need another spanking?

Sure....
" How about the criticism that businesses are just in it for money and profits? That's supposed to be an anti-business slam but upon simple examination, it reflects gross stupidity .... Putting Wal-Mart's revenues in perspective, they exceed the 2009 GDP of all but 18 of the world's 181 countries. Why is Wal-Mart so successful? Millions of people voluntarily enter their stores and part with their money in exchange for Wal-Mart's products and services. In order for that to happen, Wal-Mart and millions of other profit motivated businesses must please people.

a. Compare our level of satisfaction with the services of those "in it just for the money and profits" to those in it to serve the public as opposed to earning profits. A major non-profit service provider is the public education establishment that delivers primary and secondary education at nearly a trillion-dollar annual cost. Public education is a major source of complaints about poor services that in many cases constitute nothing less than gross fraud.
[Hits a nerve, huh?]

If Wal-Mart, or any of the millions of producers who are in it for money and profits, were to deliver the same low-quality services, they would be out of business,...." http://www.creators.com/conservative/walter-williams/economic-myths-fallacies-and-stupidity.html



Had enough, booyyyyyeeeeeeee?????

Walmart is successful selling imports made by cheap overseas labor.

lol, something Trump pretended he was going to fix.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Only capitalism is moral.....socialism, and every iteration of coercion and force by government, is immoral.

Immoral to the extent that it has resulted in the slaughter of well over 100 million men, women and children.

Capitalism requires that the entrepreneur serve his fellow man.

She just proclaimed slavery moral. Big surprise.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Capitalism isn't about serving your fellow man. It's the opposite. It's about profit from winning the sale away from your fellow man. It's about convincing your customer to pay more for your good. You go into business because you want to make a living. Otherwise you'd be volunteering at the soup kitchen.

The point of sale is just a mechanism to convert your good to cash. Businesses say they are all about the customer as a way to differentiate themselves. This is done to get more revenue, not because they are actually in love with their customer. The proof is in corporate ownership. They don't say at the shareholders meeting "go be really nice to your customers." They say "make me more got dam money."

Off topic. This system fails bevause it is explicitly selfish. Given enough time it will consume or destroy itself. Mix in some socialism and firm rules at key points and this can be prevented.

Re: "serving" I think you misunderstand his meaning. Serving in this context is providing valuable goods or services, RATHER THAN plundering and enslaving.

To the remainder of your post, it appears that you are under the delusion that you can control human nature. That is impossible.

People are lazy, greedy, spiteful, and envious. Humans must have incentive to be productive. It is delusional to believe that humans will do what is good for humanity above all else. The only hope is to harness those human traits.

That is capitalism. If you say that we must have reasonable regulation on capitalism, I am not opposed to talking about it. But, I believe any discussion on that topic should be done from a position of individual liberty being the highest virtue.

 

[bripat9643]

...and have any self respect?
After all, if your worth is due to that which is taken from someone else, someone who earned it....your value is nothing more than the vote you offer up to your patron, big government.

In full disclosure, the title of the thread is just as cogent if other terms are substituted for 'socialist,' terms such as communist, fascist, Progressive, Nazi or modern Liberal.

1. "Socialism is the end of all invention; it is the happy face of slavery. Mankind are greater gainers by suffering each other to live as seems good to themselves than by compelling each to live as seems good to the rest" - J.S. Mill




2. " Capitalism is the only moral system because it requires human beings to deal with one another as traders–that is, as free moral agents trading and selling goods and services on the basis of mutual consent.

Capitalism is the only just system because the sole criterion that determines the value of thing exchanged is the free, voluntary, universal judgement of the consumer. Coercion and fraud are anathema to the free-market system.

It is both moral and just because the degree to which man rises or falls in society is determined by the degree to which he uses his mind. Capitalism is the only social system that rewards merit, ability and achievement, regardless of one’s birth or station in life."

The requirements for success in a free society demand that ordinary citizens order their lives in accordance with certain virtues–namely, rationality, independence, industriousness, prudence, frugality, etc. In a free capitalist society individuals must choose for themselves how they will order their lives and the values they will pursue. Under socialism, most of life’s decisions are made for you.




3. Under socialism a ruling class of intellectuals, bureaucrats and social planners decide what people want or what is good for society and then use the coercive power of the State to regulate, tax, and redistribute the wealth of those who work for a living. In other words, socialism is a form of legalized theft.

The morality of socialism can be summed-up in two words: envy and self-sacrifice.
Envy is the desire to not only possess another’s wealth but also the desire to see another’s wealth lowered to the level of one’s own.

Socialism’s teaching on self-sacrifice was nicely summarized by two of its greatest defenders, Hermann Goering and Bennito Mussolini.

The highest principle of Nazism (National Socialism), said Goering, is: “Common good comes before private good.”

Fascism, said Mussolini, is ” a life in which the individual, through the sacrifice of his own private interests…realizes that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies.



4. Sadly, America is no longer a capitalist nation. We live under what is more properly called a mixed economy–that is, an economic system that permits private property, but only at the discretion of government planners. A little bit of capitalism and a little bit of socialism.

When government redistributes wealth through taxation, when it attempts to control and regulate business production and trade, who are the winners and losers? Under this kind of economy the winners and losers are reversed: the winners are those who scream the loudest for a handout and the losers are those quiet citizens who work hard and pay their taxes." Socialism vs. Capitalism: Which is the Moral System | Ashbrook



Nazi...national socialism....based on nationalism and/or race...
Communism....international socialism.

Socialism starts with a social contract like our federal Constitution. That is why.

The Constitution isn't a contract.

Yes, it is.

When did I consent to this "contract?"

Renounce your citizenship, Person of the People.

I'll take that to mean I never consented to it, so it isn't binding on me.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Hillary is a socialist? What precisely makes her a socialist?

not going to go through a history lesson again with you, since you aren't going to pull your head out of your ass anyway.. go look it up yourself.

You have no clue what socialism is. It's sadly comical to witness your flailing.

Go listen to the radio some more. lol

Since I have been around since D Eisenhower was in office, I know all about Socialism/Communism/Fascism/Marxism/Progressivism/Liberalism/Democrat party. When you tell me to do something, I just sit and laugh at your total ignorance, befitting a moron.

View attachment 170742

You've established that you can't define socialism; you can stop proving that now.

And as I said before, I pointed out what socialism is and has done, and you still haven't pulled your head out of your ass. Go back a few posts and look at the road to serfdom you dolt.

View attachment 170754

You've yet to even name ONE socialist institution in the US.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Capitalism isn't about serving your fellow man. It's the opposite. It's about profit from winning the sale away from your fellow man. It's about convincing your customer to pay more for your good. You go into business because you want to make a living. Otherwise you'd be volunteering at the soup kitchen.

The point of sale is just a mechanism to convert your good to cash. Businesses say they are all about the customer as a way to differentiate themselves. This is done to get more revenue, not because they are actually in love with their customer. The proof is in corporate ownership. They don't say at the shareholders meeting "go be really nice to your customers." They say "make me more got dam money."

Off topic. This system fails bevause it is explicitly selfish. Given enough time it will consume or destroy itself. Mix in some socialism and firm rules at key points and this can be prevented.

Re: "serving" I think you misunderstand his meaning. Serving in this context is providing valuable goods or services, RATHER THAN plundering and enslaving.

To the remainder of your post, it appears that you are under the delusion that you can control human nature. That is impossible.

People are lazy, greedy, spiteful, and envious. Humans must have incentive to be productive. It is delusional to believe that humans will do what is good for humanity above all else. The only hope is to harness those human traits.

That is capitalism. If you say that we must have reasonable regulation on capitalism, I am not opposed to talking about it. But, I believe any discussion on that topic should be done from a position of individual liberty being the highest virtue.

Why bother to have laws and courts and prisons if we can't control human nature.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Only capitalism is moral.....socialism, and every iteration of coercion and force by government, is immoral.

]

Translation: a sweatshop or a mine employing child labor is moral. Any government 'force' to change that is immoral.

Goddam retarded times 100.

 

[danielpalos]

Socialism starts with a social contract like our federal Constitution. That is why.

The Constitution isn't a contract.

Yes, it is.

When did I consent to this "contract?"

Renounce your citizenship, Person of the People.

I'll take that to mean I never consented to it, so it isn't binding on me.

You were born with it. You have to renounce it and move to an AnCap, even illegals have to pay taxes in the US.

 

[bripat9643]

The Constitution isn't a contract.

Yes, it is.

When did I consent to this "contract?"

Renounce your citizenship, Person of the People.

I'll take that to mean I never consented to it, so it isn't binding on me.

You were born with it. You have to renounce it and move to an AnCap, even illegals have to pay taxes in the US.

I never heard of a contract that I consented to before I was born.

 

[danielpalos]

Yes, it is.

When did I consent to this "contract?"

Renounce your citizenship, Person of the People.

I'll take that to mean I never consented to it, so it isn't binding on me.

You were born with it. You have to renounce it and move to an AnCap, even illegals have to pay taxes in the US.

I never heard of a contract that I consented to before I was born.

I am not surprised. Citizenship by birth is the law in the US.

 

[PoliticalChic]

It is truly a puzzlement as to how little knowledge and experience influence the Leftists, the Democrat voter, the Liberal.



Just one example of what happens when the command and control sort of economy is cast off in favor of capitalism, the corollary to human nature:

"In 1939 Finland and its southern neighbor Estonia were identical in many ways. Then, in 1940, the USSR occupied Estonia, and it remained under communist rule for 50 years. Here are the words of Mart Laar, Estonia’s former prime minister, stating what communism did to his country:

“Look at what happened in this context during these fifty years and then you can understand how terrible the communist system really is. And it’s not only in the economy. This is in all fields of life—the social structure, cultural standards, education, healthcare, or whatever. When you compare those two countries, which were exactly the same in 1939[,] in 1989, then you will find what communism really means, and how bad it is. Our economy, our nature, and our environment was [sic] destroyed.”




The conclusion:

Their economic and social differences grew so large that no informed person could honestly dispute the pernicious effect that communist rule had on occupied Estonia."
Finland and Estonia

In 1991 Estonia became capitalist, and experienced massive economic growth. They discovered the errors of progressive class warfare.




When will the ersatz socialists, Democrats/Liberals, learn this lesson???

Ever?

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

Only capitalism is moral.....socialism, and every iteration of coercion and force by government, is immoral.

Immoral to the extent that it has resulted in the slaughter of well over 100 million men, women and children.

Capitalism requires that the entrepreneur serve his fellow man.

She just proclaimed slavery moral. Big surprise.

Bud , you need to check history and while slavery in the US was at first indentured servitude, it was Whites first then Blacks, but it was a black man who turn servitude into slavery.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

Capitalism isn't about serving your fellow man. It's the opposite. It's about profit from winning the sale away from your fellow man. It's about convincing your customer to pay more for your good. You go into business because you want to make a living. Otherwise you'd be volunteering at the soup kitchen.

The point of sale is just a mechanism to convert your good to cash. Businesses say they are all about the customer as a way to differentiate themselves. This is done to get more revenue, not because they are actually in love with their customer. The proof is in corporate ownership. They don't say at the shareholders meeting "go be really nice to your customers." They say "make me more got dam money."

Off topic. This system fails bevause it is explicitly selfish. Given enough time it will consume or destroy itself. Mix in some socialism and firm rules at key points and this can be prevented.

Re: "serving" I think you misunderstand his meaning. Serving in this context is providing valuable goods or services, RATHER THAN plundering and enslaving.

To the remainder of your post, it appears that you are under the delusion that you can control human nature. That is impossible.

People are lazy, greedy, spiteful, and envious. Humans must have incentive to be productive. It is delusional to believe that humans will do what is good for humanity above all else. The only hope is to harness those human traits.

That is capitalism. If you say that we must have reasonable regulation on capitalism, I am not opposed to talking about it. But, I believe any discussion on that topic should be done from a position of individual liberty being the highest virtue.

Why bother to have laws and courts and prisons if we can't control human nature.

Did you know that prisons are a corporation? That the liberals love to control people and then reward businesses that work with prisons? Most of the business that produce food, clothing and other items are all minimum wage jobs, but hey as long as they are democrats, it is okay?

 

[grainbely]

Some of us have jobs. You'll have to wait, politi-hick, for us to allot you some of our precious time.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

Some of us have jobs. You'll have to wait, politi-hick, for us to allot you some of our precious time.

What, paid to protest and riot? Nothing on the agenda to burn or women to punch?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Some of us have jobs. You'll have to wait, politi-hick, for us to allot you some of our precious time.

Sooooo.....you're not here to
a. thank me for your education vis-a-vis socialism?
b. admit that you're a dunce
or
c. admit that you're a government school grad????


Seems, then, that you're just wasting your 'precious' time, and, bringing nothing to the table.
But....you must have lots of that time left over, not having wasted any on education.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Yes, it is.

When did I consent to this "contract?"

Renounce your citizenship, Person of the People.

I'll take that to mean I never consented to it, so it isn't binding on me.

You were born with it. You have to renounce it and move to an AnCap, even illegals have to pay taxes in the US.

I never heard of a contract that I consented to before I was born.

I can't see any posts from danielpalos, because he is an idiot, so I ignored him. But, this is a funny discussion.

When a child is born with an obligation to work for the benefit of other people, we call that child a slave. The Marxists try to sugar coat it and make it sound like a noble responsibility, but the result is the same.

The proponents of communism and its resulting socialist state (yes, it works just the opposite of the way Marx described it) misuse and bastardize the "social contract" theory. Social contract is simply the agreement of individuals (implicitly) to surrender some of their natural freedoms to a government in exchange for that government's protection of their remaining freedoms. That's it.

The Marxists claim that we have surrendered our all of our rights to property to their State, in exchange for (I presume) protection from economic failure. Assuming (but never conceding) that is true, a serious question remains. In the minds of Marxists (or Socialists) have we surrendered our right to revoke our consent?

 

[danielpalos]

When did I consent to this "contract?"

Renounce your citizenship, Person of the People.

I'll take that to mean I never consented to it, so it isn't binding on me.

You were born with it. You have to renounce it and move to an AnCap, even illegals have to pay taxes in the US.

I never heard of a contract that I consented to before I was born.

I can't see any posts from danielpalos, because he is an idiot, so I ignored him. But, this is a funny discussion.

When a child is born with an obligation to work for the benefit of other people, we call that child a slave. The Marxists try to sugar coat it and make it sound like a noble responsibility, but the result is the same.

The proponents of communism and its resulting socialist state (yes, it works just the opposite of the way Marx described it) misuse and bastardize the "social contract" theory. Social contract is simply the agreement of individuals (implicitly) to surrender some of their natural freedoms to a government in exchange for that government's protection of their remaining freedoms. That's it.

The Marxists claim that we have surrendered our all of our rights to property to their State, in exchange for (I presume) protection from economic failure. Assuming (but never conceding) that is true, a serious question remains. In the minds of Marxists (or Socialists) have we surrendered our right to revoke our consent?

The law is employment at will, right wingers. Not, "work or die."