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Perhaps you've forgotten, but this discussion happened in the god haters thread a while back. Originally you said that a person cannot accept spiritual evidence until they believe it.
Why are you STILL stuck on this? NO... that is NOT what I said! We've been over what I said, I just finished posting a rather lengthy explanation for the umpteenth time. And here you are, repeating a flat our mischaracterization of what I just explained. Are you just going to ignore my repeated clarifications and explanations of what I said? If that's what you're intent on doing here, we're done. I have no further comment for you, and I'll put your ass on ignore. I'm tired of this silliness and it needs to STOP!
The rest of your post is equally obtuse and NOT on point. You seem to just want to find something to run your mouth about, for the sake of denigrating me personally. You're obviously not interested in an adult conversation on any kind of intelligent and reasonable level.
Gravity exists, but what is gravity? Where did it come from? I disagree with your assumption on jumping out of a plane to see what direction you go. If the plane is 30,000 feet above the moon, I might not go anywhere.
You do know that the Moon has the gravitational pull to effect the tides here on Earth, over 238,000 miles away. I do think that at 30,000 feet above the Moon you will go, "bang zoom Alice, to the Moon," with a thud!
Okay, so... IF my plane is traveling at a speed of 25,000 mph away from the moon and it suddenly stops as I jump out, will I still go down? OR.... If I have a rocket pack strapped to my back, would I still go down? OR... If there were 30,000 feet of marshmallows between the moon and myself?
You do know that the Moon has the gravitational pull to effect the tides here on Earth, over 238,000 miles away. I do think that at 30,000 feet above the Moon you will go, "bang zoom Alice, to the Moon," with a thud!
Okay, so... IF my plane is traveling at a speed of 25,000 mph away from the moon and it suddenly stops as I jump out, will I still go down? OR.... If I have a rocket pack strapped to my back, would I still go down? OR... If there were 30,000 feet of marshmallows between the moon and myself?
Why are you arguing about rockets and marshmallows when the discussion is about gravity? None of this asinine silliness changes the fact that you are affected by gravity.....
You do know that the Moon has the gravitational pull to effect the tides here on Earth, over 238,000 miles away. I do think that at 30,000 feet above the Moon you will go, "bang zoom Alice, to the Moon," with a thud!
Okay, so... IF my plane is traveling at a speed of 25,000 mph away from the moon and it suddenly stops as I jump out, will I still go down? OR.... If I have a rocket pack strapped to my back, would I still go down? OR... If there were 30,000 feet of marshmallows between the moon and myself?
Why are you arguing about rockets and marshmallows when the discussion is about gravity? None of this asinine silliness changes the fact that you are affected by gravity.....
Okay, so... IF my plane is traveling at a speed of 25,000 mph away from the moon and it suddenly stops as I jump out, will I still go down? OR.... If I have a rocket pack strapped to my back, would I still go down? OR... If there were 30,000 feet of marshmallows between the moon and myself?
Why are you arguing about rockets and marshmallows when the discussion is about gravity? None of this asinine silliness changes the fact that you are affected by gravity.....
Gravity isn't a "FACT" as was stated. Lots of things effect gravity. Should we discuss the numerous times science has revised it's theories regarding gravity? And.... STILL waiting on someone to tell me what exactly gravity is. Yes, it's a "force" but so is GOD!
Okay, so... IF my plane is traveling at a speed of 25,000 mph away from the moon and it suddenly stops as I jump out, will I still go down? OR.... If I have a rocket pack strapped to my back, would I still go down? OR... If there were 30,000 feet of marshmallows between the moon and myself?
Why are you arguing about rockets and marshmallows when the discussion is about gravity? None of this asinine silliness changes the fact that you are affected by gravity.....
The gravitational pull of Boss's own stupidity is sufficient to prevent him from ever understanding the Universe.
Why are you arguing about rockets and marshmallows when the discussion is about gravity? None of this asinine silliness changes the fact that you are affected by gravity.....
The gravitational pull of Boss's own stupidity is sufficient to prevent him from ever understanding the Universe.
Face it. The storybooks that made up hell, boss doesn't even believe but he still believes in a god and hell.
I told him I believe in karma. Maybe I'm just as stupid as he is. Do you believe in karma? I sort of do. He thinks that's god. I don't. I just think you get what you give, what comes around goes around, bad juju, good/bad karma. Do good you will be rewarded. But not in heaven. I want to be rewarded here and now.
Interesting that in the poorest most uneducated countries belief in god is very high. Gotta have something to cling to, right? But if I'm in a fox hole I'm going to pray too but in my head I am smart enough, when I'm not in a complete state of panic, able to understand that there is no imaginary man.
But what about karma? If you believe it, how do you explain it? Maybe it's the people you surround yourself with. Maybe it's the pharamones we give off. It has to be scientifically explained this karma. I'm going to research it. You know how they say you become the sum of the 5 people you hang around the most? So maybe being a good person who believes in god and you do good things and good things happen to you.
But being an atheist isn't a bad thing either. Here is my beef. They took a poll and turns out atheists are the least trusted group. People would rather vote for a pot head cheater than an atheist. It's not like bad things happen to atheists because they don't believe in god. If they do good things and are good people, they get good karma. Christians who are dicks have bad karma. But maybe you make your own karma regardless of what religion you are. Yes, I believe karma can be explained scientifically and logically and rationally without any god(s).
Glad we had this talk.
Good post!The gravitational pull of Boss's own stupidity is sufficient to prevent him from ever understanding the Universe.
Face it. The storybooks that made up hell, boss doesn't even believe but he still believes in a god and hell.
I told him I believe in karma. Maybe I'm just as stupid as he is. Do you believe in karma? I sort of do. He thinks that's god. I don't. I just think you get what you give, what comes around goes around, bad juju, good/bad karma. Do good you will be rewarded. But not in heaven. I want to be rewarded here and now.
Interesting that in the poorest most uneducated countries belief in god is very high. Gotta have something to cling to, right? But if I'm in a fox hole I'm going to pray too but in my head I am smart enough, when I'm not in a complete state of panic, able to understand that there is no imaginary man.
But what about karma? If you believe it, how do you explain it? Maybe it's the people you surround yourself with. Maybe it's the pharamones we give off. It has to be scientifically explained this karma. I'm going to research it. You know how they say you become the sum of the 5 people you hang around the most? So maybe being a good person who believes in god and you do good things and good things happen to you.
But being an atheist isn't a bad thing either. Here is my beef. They took a poll and turns out atheists are the least trusted group. People would rather vote for a pot head cheater than an atheist. It's not like bad things happen to atheists because they don't believe in god. If they do good things and are good people, they get good karma. Christians who are dicks have bad karma. But maybe you make your own karma regardless of what religion you are. Yes, I believe karma can be explained scientifically and logically and rationally without any god(s).
Glad we had this talk.
Yes, atheists are the last persecuted minority left who still face discrimination, especially when it comes to holding political office.
As an atheist my life has been no better or worse than anyone else's. The single biggest difference is that I accept responsibility for things that I screw up and I don't expect to be bailed out by something imaginary. Equally so when things go well I know that it was my own efforts that paid off without any imaginary help.
When it comes to good and bad karma I think I know where you are going but I just approach it differently. In my youth I noticed a correlation between those who hated and ill health in old age. Harboring bitterness seemed to have a negative impact on the body. I was aware enough of myself to know how negative feelings harmed my own body.
So I opted to not hold grudges, to not hate anyone but instead get to know them as people. Over time it became apparent that we have more in common than what divides us. Our differences are too petty to spend our lives focused on the negatives.
Has this made a difference to my health? I have no idea. But it has given me a wonderful life with loved ones that I hold near and dear. Yes, we have suffered hardships in material terms and even the occasional serious illness. But the love we share is stronger and more enduring and uplifting. It is a dependable bond that is worth more than any amount of money.
I don't need the "love" of an imaginary being since I have real tangible love in my life on a daily basis. I have good friends and while I might not be wealthy I am not lacking for anything important in my life.
So in my opinion we carry everything we need for happiness or unhappiness within ourselves. We can choose to live our lives in the pursuit of happiness or not. Those that don't only have themselves to blame for their "bad karma" if they opted to harbor anger and hatred within themselves in my opinion.
The gravitational pull of Boss's own stupidity is sufficient to prevent him from ever understanding the Universe.
Face it. The storybooks that made up hell, boss doesn't even believe but he still believes in a god and hell.
I told him I believe in karma. Maybe I'm just as stupid as he is. Do you believe in karma? I sort of do. He thinks that's god. I don't. I just think you get what you give, what comes around goes around, bad juju, good/bad karma. Do good you will be rewarded. But not in heaven. I want to be rewarded here and now.
Interesting that in the poorest most uneducated countries belief in god is very high. Gotta have something to cling to, right? But if I'm in a fox hole I'm going to pray too but in my head I am smart enough, when I'm not in a complete state of panic, able to understand that there is no imaginary man.
But what about karma? If you believe it, how do you explain it? Maybe it's the people you surround yourself with. Maybe it's the pharamones we give off. It has to be scientifically explained this karma. I'm going to research it. You know how they say you become the sum of the 5 people you hang around the most? So maybe being a good person who believes in god and you do good things and good things happen to you.
But being an atheist isn't a bad thing either. Here is my beef. They took a poll and turns out atheists are the least trusted group. People would rather vote for a pot head cheater than an atheist. It's not like bad things happen to atheists because they don't believe in god. If they do good things and are good people, they get good karma. Christians who are dicks have bad karma. But maybe you make your own karma regardless of what religion you are. Yes, I believe karma can be explained scientifically and logically and rationally without any god(s).
Glad we had this talk.
Yes, atheists are the last persecuted minority left who still face discrimination, especially when it comes to holding political office.
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That gravity exists is a fact. There is a force which attracts objects to each other. The specifics of how it works, how it started, why it exists, etc. may be in question, but that it does exist is not.
Here is my beef. They took a poll and turns out atheists are the least trusted group. People would rather vote for a pot head cheater than an atheist. It's not like bad things happen to atheists because they don't believe in god. If they do good things and are good people, they get good karma. Christians who are dicks have bad karma. But maybe you make your own karma regardless of what religion you are.
Here is my beef. They took a poll and turns out atheists are the least trusted group. People would rather vote for a pot head cheater than an atheist. It's not like bad things happen to atheists because they don't believe in god. If they do good things and are good people, they get good karma. Christians who are dicks have bad karma. But maybe you make your own karma regardless of what religion you are.
The reason is, spirituality gives you moral foundation. If you had to rely on someone to lead you on a journey across the ocean, would you rather have someone with GPS, familiar with the sea, a seasoned veteran captain... or would you rather have someone without a compass who figures to just "wing it" as they go?
The idea of karma is totally spiritual. It is no different than belief in God. I will add this for Dorito, Love is also a spiritual concept. Practicing a life where you love your neighbor rather than hate, is a spiritual concept, and basically the foundational theological message of one Jesus Christ. So both of you have admitted, right here in front of everyone, that you DO have spirituality and you DO believe in God... it's just a different incarnation of God.
As Emily said, there are universals that we can all agree on, what keeps us divided is terminology. You all have a problem with the word "God" and it sets off all kinds of mental alarm bells in your head for some reason. I can actually understand that because I've witnessed humans do awful things "in the name of God" ...like flying planes into buildings... committing mass suicide... exterminating races of people, etc. BUT... there are also humans who have done great things "in the name of God" like Mother Teresa and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Religion has been used for evil, like Islamic Jihad and terrorism, and it has been used for good, like Mormon's Helping Hands. Spirituality itself is not impervious, there are people who are just as spiritual as I am, they are spiritually connected to Satanic forces and realize just as much "benefit" from their spiritual connection.
If they made GPS in Columbus' time, I suspect he would have had it.
Columbus never had a GPS! You don't need "spirituality" in order to have a "moral foundation". That is just snake oil that those with a vested interest in getting you to believe their brand use to sell it to the gullible.
As far as your DELUSIONS go neither of us have admitted anything of the sort. Kindly refrain from imposing your misconceptions on others.
That gravity exists is a fact. There is a force which attracts objects to each other. The specifics of how it works, how it started, why it exists, etc. may be in question, but that it does exist is not.
That God exists is also a fact. There is a force that humans connect with and always have. The specifics of that force are unclear and do not appear to be physical. Isaac Newton called them "mercurial spirits" and Einstein called them "wonderous."
Now... Can I break off a chunck of God and hand it to you to examine? No... and you also can't do that with gravity. You can only show me the effects of gravity, and I can also show you the effects of God, but you don't accept the effects of God as being from God. I can be equally as stubborn and simply say the effects of gravity you demonstrate are actually the hand of God, working to hold things together. Neither of us can prove the other wrong. Neither of us can prove to the other we are right. So....what we have to do is go to an Internet message board and team up with people who support our faith and see who can outnumber the other. Because, in absence of proof, that's the next best thing.
The null hypothesis of the subject would be, "God does not exist." Unfortunately or fortunately as the situation may be, his "study" does not have any statistically significance to conclude the null hypothesis is valid. He only has guess work....IE his OPINION, which is no more valid than anyone else's opinion either pro or con on the subject.Whenever Boss states the position of others, he always misstates it to create a Straw Man he can argue against.
Science does not argue that it has proven that God does not exist, the closest they have come is the assertion that it is not NECESSARY for a God or two or three to exist.
Science can't determine if God is or isn't necessary. Science can't evaluate God. It's an assertion made by people who seek to pervert science for their own agenda. Science doesn't delve into the theological or spiritual.
Now, I am well aware science doesn't argue it has proven God doesn't exist, but you can find two posts in this thread alone by itfitzme claiming exactly that. Where are you when those outrageous claims are made? Why aren't you jumping in to correct the error? You're silent because he's "on your side" in the disbelieving of God. You let that slide because it helps promote the agenda.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/9348560-post501.html
itfitzme: Utter failure to prove god exist, over a period of 400+ years is proof that god doesn't exist.
Now that is just the two instances where the claim has outright been made that science has disproved God. There are COUNTLESS times where this is inferred by default by claiming science can support all kinds of wild-ass theories (which it can't support) and dismissing anything that spiritual evidence may have to offer.
I have no problem with "we don't know" and a real problem with "we may not know, but yeah, we kinda do!"
If you want to call gravity god, feel free. Of course, I can show the effects of gravity with repeatable experiment. If that is the only thing you think god does, fine.
It's when you start getting into speculation that there are issues. God created the universe? God wants people to do this or that, to be this way, etc.? This or that happens after a person dies? Those types of claims, for which there is little or no objective evidence, are where these arguments really stem from.
And yes, the same kinds of things are done by people without spiritual beliefs. sealybobo has certainly made some statements I find ridiculous, and I've argued with him as well, despite the fact our views on spirituality seem to be much closer than do mine and yours.
Oh, and why do you keep trying to make human emotions into other things? Earlier you were calling various emotions senses, now I've seen you calling love a spiritual concept. Are all emotions spiritual concepts, or just love? And if just love, why is it different from all other emotions? These are the kinds of statements that lead to so much arguing with you.
Nope! That is as ridiculous as saying if an event can't be proved it proves the opposite. I can't prove the my imagination is more prolific than yours. It does not prove it is not. No proof is just what it says, no proof, either way, yea or nay!No operational definition of "spiritual"?
I certainly provided enough question to start with.
No operational definition means it doesn't exist.
It's because all human emotions are spiritually inspired. It may not be "positive" spirituality, it can go both ways. The hate and anger you feel for religion and theocracy are spiritually inspired. It's negative spirituality, much like antimatter is to matter..
That gravity exists is a fact. There is a force which attracts objects to each other. The specifics of how it works, how it started, why it exists, etc. may be in question, but that it does exist is not.
Isaac Newton called them "mercurial spirits" and Einstein called them "wonderous."
That gravitating exists is a fact. There is a force which attracts objects to each other. The specifics of how it works, how it started, why it exists, etc. may be in question, but that it does exist is not.
Isaac Newton called them "mercurial spirits" and Einstein called them "wonderous."
To say that atheism requires faith is as dim-witted as saying that disbelief in pixies or leprechauns takes faith. Even if Einstein himself told me there was an elf on my shoulder, I would still ask for proof and I wouldnt be wrong to ask. Geoff Mather
Sir Isaac Newton, one of historys greatest scientists, was not only intensely religious but also believed in alchemical transmutation. Alchemy is, however, fully incorrect given our modern understanding of chemistry, the atom and nucleosynthysis.
The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalise world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ignorant bliss and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.
