How do people survive on minimum wage?

[newpolitics]

You talk about racism and your race stereotypes come right out when it pertains to Jews... classic

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

That's borderline retarded.. what the fuck is wrong with you? Seriously?

Are you fucking serious? I have no problem with jewish people, and citing their relative success can hardly be construed as anti-semetic. It was merely with reference to her ability to relate to poor people, which she claimed she could, and I find laughable. I can't be real on this board without conservatives act as the political correctness police? Talk about hypocrisy.

 

[DiamondDave]

What comprehension do you of impoverished living conditions? 'Guessing' by your name, you're a jewish white girl, and likely have money, so don't claim to understand. That is insulting to the poor. Most conservatives do not demonstrate any comprehension of impoverished living conditions when they speak. What you say implies some kind of empathy that you have or a real concern for the poor. I don't buy that. Personal interest says you only care about paying less taxes. How could you comprehend the plight of the poor? You haven't experienced it. What is your methodology for establishing causality for the poor? You don't have one. You have a narrative that has been taught to you by someone else, and has no bearing on reality. So, you can't claim with certitude that getting rid of subsidies will fix anything. Subsidies are not the cause, and although there may be some truth that they can act as a maintenance mechanism for a very few to remain poor, neither can that be demonstrated.

You talk about racism and your race stereotypes come right out when it pertains to Jews... classic

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

Well.. I could then assume with the same amount of background information on you, that you are suffering from mental retardation, probably stemming from drug use... this is based on experience being around it in Baltimore city in my youth, watching friends and neighbors lose their mental faculties and ability to reason after heavy drug use... see how easy it is to paint a picture from your own imagination with no actual information??

And who said anything or even gave a hint of anything about 'empathy for the rich'.... I am the BIGGEST proponent of equal treatment for all, with all the positives and negatives that go with it...

You are posting like an ignorant, snot nosed brat that gets talking point information and slogans from activists and winger blogs... sitting around a tree at the local college with bunches of people sporting dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts, drinking Sobe before going back to your beater car that smells of bong water and is decorated with Obama stickers.... See, another easy assumption without information

 

[newpolitics]

You talk about racism and your race stereotypes come right out when it pertains to Jews... classic

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

Well.. I could then assume with the same amount of background information on you, that you are suffering from mental retardation, probably stemming from drug use... this is based on experience being around it in Baltimore city in my youth, watching friends and neighbors lose their mental faculties and ability to reason after heavy drug use... see how easy it is to paint a picture from your own imagination with no actual information??

And who said anything or even gave a hint of anything about 'empathy for the rich'.... I am the BIGGEST proponent of equal treatment for all, with all the positives and negatives that go with it...

You are posting like an ignorant, snot nosed brat that gets talking point information and slogans from activists and winger blogs... sitting around a tree at the local college with bunches of people sporting dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts, drinking Sobe before going back to your beater car that smells of bong water and is decorated with Obama stickers.... See, another easy assumption without information

I can't logically defend my choice of words, because I don't know the girl. I did it out of anger in response to when conservatives say they empathize with the poor as a reason for their wanting to remove all subsidies. It's ridiculous that the most privileged in society have so much commentary on things they know nothing about. I used her name as enough information to paint of picture of her. Yes, it was stereotyping. Yes, it was "wrong" to generalize.

Koshergl, I apologize.

 

[The Rabbi]

Ideals of fairness betray a cognitive distortion in the form of wishful thinking. There are undoubtedly people with families working minimum wage jobs, and it is easy to imagine how that would make impossible any time investment towards education when money is needed now. I did not provide any specific stats, but I shouldn't needed to. A look at the world in which we leave should be enough. I'm not sure what world you're living in.

Your explanation for the difference in wage rates mentioned is nonsensical, and is actually quite laughable if that is the basis for your claims. I assume the basis for your claims on equality across race are equally as nonsensical.

IOW you have no proof, no evidence, not even a logical argument. But it just HAS to be as you say because there are poor people in America. That means ipso facto there must be discrimination and racism.
You are little short of a troll.
Dismissed.

To deny inequality is to be willfully ignorant. You seem to employ a distorted lens through which you view the world to be totally fair. That is asinine. Do I really have to supply statistics on inequality? Have you never seen any? I'm willing to bet you have, so i'm not sure what good that will do. My claims are not complex nor far reaching, yet you treat that is if they are some newfound and highly specific claims recently invented. It's kind of ridiculous. Moreover, they correspond and explain reality more fully than your worldview every could, a testament to their veracity. Institutional racism and inequality do exist and act as barriers for many to move upwards and out of their situation.

Of course there is inequality. Tiger Woods is a far better golf player than I am. I am probably a much better shot with a short barrelled revolver than you are. I can explain a page of Talmud far better than you, although not as well as many others.
All of that is the result of choices I and everyone else have made in our lives. Women earn less money because they have less tenure in jobs. Blacks are proportionally under-represented in business because of schooling and cultural issues. They are over-represented in professional sports for pretty much the same reasons.
To attribute disparity in outcome to racism, sexism, or any other bigotry and discrimination is simply a fallacy.

 

[DiamondDave]

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

Well.. I could then assume with the same amount of background information on you, that you are suffering from mental retardation, probably stemming from drug use... this is based on experience being around it in Baltimore city in my youth, watching friends and neighbors lose their mental faculties and ability to reason after heavy drug use... see how easy it is to paint a picture from your own imagination with no actual information??

And who said anything or even gave a hint of anything about 'empathy for the rich'.... I am the BIGGEST proponent of equal treatment for all, with all the positives and negatives that go with it...

You are posting like an ignorant, snot nosed brat that gets talking point information and slogans from activists and winger blogs... sitting around a tree at the local college with bunches of people sporting dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts, drinking Sobe before going back to your beater car that smells of bong water and is decorated with Obama stickers.... See, another easy assumption without information

I can't logically defend my choice of words, because I don't know the girl. I did it out of anger in response to when conservatives say they empathize with the poor as a reason for their wanting to remove all subsidies. It's ridiculous that the most privileged in society have so much commentary on things they know nothing about. I used her name as enough information to paint of picture of her. Yes, it was stereotyping. Yes, it was "wrong" to generalize.

Fuck off...

1) You can have empathy and want to help those who want assistance, without being FORCED to by government... those things are called charities... things many of us support with both time and money... and when you give to charity it is more 'generous' than trying to use monies of others to do your charitable work for you

2) You assume all of us that make a damn good living don't know what it is like to be poor?? FUCK YOU AGAIN... I came from a family situation with neither of my parents around, being raised by a depression era grandmother who had recently lost her husband who was the sole bread winner in the family. A man who had to work 3 jobs on his 10th grade education to make ends meet. Walking along the streets on a regular basis to collect cans and bottles in order to have meat money. From the age of nine working odd jobs around the neighborhood, tilling the entire back yard to grow and harvest vegetables for both immediate consumption and to can for food to last the winter and early spring. Working 35 hours a week on the books and whatever extra I could get beyond that in my junior and senior years to take care of my own needs and help out the grandmother who took care of me. Trying college but not liking it, changing direction and working on average 60-90 hours a week until I was 22. At 22 re-evaluating my situation and joining the Army, pushing myself, expanding my experience, and living off a monthly salary that most people made in 2 weeks, while working 3X the hours in one of the highest stress jobs you can have. ETSing from the military and challenging myself, working 2 jobs again while supporting a wife and child, taking every chance I could to learn, grow, and improve to make myself in demand. And after all that and more, I EARNED success. All the while along the way hearing snot nosed little punks complaining how hard things are and how they are earned things and how life is 'unfair'. Well... Fuck you and them, life is not fair... And your personal situation is your personal situation, and it is up to you to make it or fail, all on your own

 

[The Rabbi]

You talk about racism and your race stereotypes come right out when it pertains to Jews... classic

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

Well.. I could then assume with the same amount of background information on you, that you are suffering from mental retardation, probably stemming from drug use... this is based on experience being around it in Baltimore city in my youth, watching friends and neighbors lose their mental faculties and ability to reason after heavy drug use... see how easy it is to paint a picture from your own imagination with no actual information??

And who said anything or even gave a hint of anything about 'empathy for the rich'.... I am the BIGGEST proponent of equal treatment for all, with all the positives and negatives that go with it...

You are posting like an ignorant, snot nosed brat that gets talking point information and slogans from activists and winger blogs... sitting around a tree at the local college with bunches of people sporting dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts, drinking Sobe before going back to your beater car that smells of bong water and is decorated with Obama stickers.... See, another easy assumption without information

Except that one was probably right on the money. We have a spokesman for the poor and oppressed, doubtless posting off his $1k Mac drinking $5 coffee at Starbucks. I doubt this guy has held a job in his life.

 

[The Rabbi]

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

Well.. I could then assume with the same amount of background information on you, that you are suffering from mental retardation, probably stemming from drug use... this is based on experience being around it in Baltimore city in my youth, watching friends and neighbors lose their mental faculties and ability to reason after heavy drug use... see how easy it is to paint a picture from your own imagination with no actual information??

And who said anything or even gave a hint of anything about 'empathy for the rich'.... I am the BIGGEST proponent of equal treatment for all, with all the positives and negatives that go with it...

You are posting like an ignorant, snot nosed brat that gets talking point information and slogans from activists and winger blogs... sitting around a tree at the local college with bunches of people sporting dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts, drinking Sobe before going back to your beater car that smells of bong water and is decorated with Obama stickers.... See, another easy assumption without information

I can't logically defend my choice of words, because I don't know the girl. I did it out of anger in response to when conservatives say they empathize with the poor as a reason for their wanting to remove all subsidies. It's ridiculous that the most privileged in society have so much commentary on things they know nothing about. I used her name as enough information to paint of picture of her. Yes, it was stereotyping. Yes, it was "wrong" to generalize.

Koshergl, I apologize.

Conservatives don't empathize with the poor. We want them to have the same shot at success as anyone else. And keeping them downtrodden in failing schools, dangerous public housing, and dependent on welfare is not the way to do that.

 

[Foxfyre]

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

Well.. I could then assume with the same amount of background information on you, that you are suffering from mental retardation, probably stemming from drug use... this is based on experience being around it in Baltimore city in my youth, watching friends and neighbors lose their mental faculties and ability to reason after heavy drug use... see how easy it is to paint a picture from your own imagination with no actual information??

And who said anything or even gave a hint of anything about 'empathy for the rich'.... I am the BIGGEST proponent of equal treatment for all, with all the positives and negatives that go with it...

You are posting like an ignorant, snot nosed brat that gets talking point information and slogans from activists and winger blogs... sitting around a tree at the local college with bunches of people sporting dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts, drinking Sobe before going back to your beater car that smells of bong water and is decorated with Obama stickers.... See, another easy assumption without information

I can't logically defend my choice of words, because I don't know the girl. I did it out of anger in response to when conservatives say they empathize with the poor as a reason for their wanting to remove all subsidies. It's ridiculous that the most privileged in society have so much commentary on things they know nothing about. I used her name as enough information to paint of picture of her. Yes, it was stereotyping. Yes, it was "wrong" to generalize.

Koshergl, I apologize.

Conservatives want to remove subsidies, at least at the federal level, that create and continue to contribute to corruption in government and among the recipients of the subsidies.

Conservatives are able to get past the bleeding heart so-called compassion to recognize that many government programs to help the 'poor' in fact too often entrench the 'poor' deeper into poverty. (See PC's thread on welfare and the black family for one example.)

Do not assume that those of us who see a downside to the minimum wage or other government initiatives or programs are the least bit uncompassionate or that we are hard hearted or that we begrudge helping anybody.

You can assume that we often come from a perspective of recognition that many good intentions have unintended negative consequences and that we think real compassion recognizes and is willing to address.

 

[The Rabbi]

It is far less "compassionate" to deny someone the opportunity to work because they have do not have the job skills or experience to be worth minimum wage. If they don't work, they will never develop the necessary skills.

 

[koshergrl]

It's just like this...you exert discipline over children in your care. You allow them to experience consequences (which are sometimes awful) and you do not feed into negative, destructive behavior.

Why should we behave differently towards adults? Why would we REWARD behavior that is destructive? Obviously, it doesn't reduce the behavior if we subsidize it.

 

[initforme]

1) Adults should not be working for anything near minimum wage. Those jobs should be left unfilled except by kids. You pretend to pay me, I pretend to work. Minimum wage jobs are those that are filled by unskilled people. If an employer expects higher skilled people, then they should pay them. But I would love to see employers having a hard time filling those jobs. Serves em right.
2) You can live on it if you dont own a home or rent, dont own a car of any type, dont have kids, and dont eat. Then you can do it. Live with your parents, dont ever go to the doctor so you dont have to get health insurance. Also, dont do anything fun on your days off. Then it could be done.
3) Many posters said if you pay more then your prices to consumers go up. On the flip side, when wages go down, people have less money to spend on products. Less money in pocket is less spending money. Two edged sword.
4) The best advice I can give a worker is always be looking for more pay with a different job. When you get one, leave the one you are at, cold turkey. Walk out. No notice. Tell em to go to heck. I did it several times.
3)

 

[koshergrl]

Then don't work. Loser. You can file for retard disability, and let the smart kids take those jobs.

 

[initforme]

Training beyond High school is the only chance a person has to make it go in this country as of now. Heck I have run my own construction business for 24 (soon to be 25) years and even to pound a nail I will only hire those with construction training from a tech school at the minimum. Then again I pay them more but at least they had the guts to get further training. That says something right there.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

That's borderline retarded.. what the fuck is wrong with you? Seriously?

Are you fucking serious? I have no problem with jewish people, and citing their relative success can hardly be construed as anti-semetic. It was merely with reference to her ability to relate to poor people, which she claimed she could, and I find laughable. I can't be real on this board without conservatives act as the political correctness police? Talk about hypocrisy.

Relative to what? You need to stop already....

 

[The T]

That's borderline retarded.. what the fuck is wrong with you? Seriously?

Are you fucking serious? I have no problem with jewish people, and citing their relative success can hardly be construed as anti-semetic. It was merely with reference to her ability to relate to poor people, which she claimed she could, and I find laughable. I can't be real on this board without conservatives act as the political correctness police? Talk about hypocrisy.

Relative to what? You need to stop already....

Best to let these idiots flame out or get bored.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Aw, I'm telling the girl, based on experience (growing up in a rich town) and demonstrable statistical evidence, she has money. poor her! Your'e ridiculous. It's so awful being rich! Don't give me this lame conservative empathy for the rich. It's pathetic.

Well.. I could then assume with the same amount of background information on you, that you are suffering from mental retardation, probably stemming from drug use... this is based on experience being around it in Baltimore city in my youth, watching friends and neighbors lose their mental faculties and ability to reason after heavy drug use... see how easy it is to paint a picture from your own imagination with no actual information??

And who said anything or even gave a hint of anything about 'empathy for the rich'.... I am the BIGGEST proponent of equal treatment for all, with all the positives and negatives that go with it...

You are posting like an ignorant, snot nosed brat that gets talking point information and slogans from activists and winger blogs... sitting around a tree at the local college with bunches of people sporting dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts, drinking Sobe before going back to your beater car that smells of bong water and is decorated with Obama stickers.... See, another easy assumption without information

I can't logically defend my choice of words, because I don't know the girl. I did it out of anger in response to when conservatives say they empathize with the poor as a reason for their wanting to remove all subsidies. It's ridiculous that the most privileged in society have so much commentary on things they know nothing about. I used her name as enough information to paint of picture of her. Yes, it was stereotyping. Yes, it was "wrong" to generalize.

Koshergl, I apologize.

How privileged do you think I am? See, your problem is that you equate conservatism with wealth, which of course is dumb.... some of the wealthiest people on this planet are left wing moonbats. One can be not so well off and still embrace conservatism... you need to rethink your position a bit... you come off as woefully ignorant... but that can be fixed, unlike stupid.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Are you fucking serious? I have no problem with jewish people, and citing their relative success can hardly be construed as anti-semetic. It was merely with reference to her ability to relate to poor people, which she claimed she could, and I find laughable. I can't be real on this board without conservatives act as the political correctness police? Talk about hypocrisy.

Relative to what? You need to stop already....

Best to let these idiots flame out or get bored.

Yeah, that one's a bit vexing.

 

[The T]

Relative to what? You need to stop already....

Best to let these idiots flame out or get bored.

Yeah, that one's a bit vexing.

And the rambling from that one is a bit tiring...

 

[Londoner]

They don't, they can't, I've been saying that for years, more than 75% of those working for minimum wage are adults and minimum wage currently has the lowest spending power in history. In the richest country in the world, the poorest worker should make a living wage.

The great crisis of capitalism is that its drive for higher returns leads it to lower wages - which results in the growing inability for workers to buy what they produce.

There are two common solutions to this demand problem.

The Chinese model: create an export economy. Make it so workers don't have to buy what they produce because the goods are being made for export. (This is the China of 30 years ago, before they started to slowly build a more impressive domestic economy) Under the old Chinese model your workers live in hovels and cannot consume or improve their living conditions. This type of model usually requires a repressive government, one that is both physically and ideologically repressive, e.g., put people in prison, subject them to strong law enforcement, and limit their google searches, etc.

The Reagan Model: Expand freedom through credit. This is what Reagan had to do when he dismantled unions and created the conditions for cheap labor (higher returns) in the USA. He (more specifically his era in history) replaced high wages, high benefits and entitlements with credit vehicles. This is why US Household debt exploded starting in the 80s.

The downside is of the Chinese model is obvious. You need to repress your workers.

The downside of the Reagan model is also obvious. The credit eventually runs out and you end up with a generation of insolvent, debt ridden consumers - and you have a decade or more of weak demand and no economic growth, and, as a result, a steady loss of jobs.

Wealth inequality is morally fine with me - I truly don't give a shit how little or how much someone makes. What I care about is an economy that does not pay its workers enough to consume (either through wages/benefits or "after market" policies that keep the middle class consumer solvent) Once capitalism, through its drive for cheap labor, renders the middle class consumer insolvent, you either go down the dark road of prison or credit: you have to put the superfluous in jail or give them a means to survive through the expansion of credit markets. America started with the credit model, but it is - out of necessity - easing into the prison model. This is what the Reagan War on Drugs was meant to do: boost the repressive power of the state in the face of unwinding social programs. When you start paying workers less money, you need more prison beds, more Rush Limbaugh (propoganda) and more religion ("hope").

By reducing labor costs so that a narrow group of capitalists could realize higher returns, the middle class consumer was nailed to a Cross of Master Card, Visa, and Sub-prime. Now the game is up; 30 years of Reaganomics (a.k.a. austerity for the working consumer) has lead to a crisis in demand that cannot be solved by traditional Keynesian methods. Interest rates are near zero, taxes are at their lowest rates ever, and no stimulus will stick on our dying cluster fuck of zombie banks and bankrupt consumers.

Welcome to the structural flaw of capitalism. Lower wages increases the need for credit which increases the likelihood of an economic meltdown, which meltdown allows the powerful to prey on the fear and desperation of the stupid - hence talk radio.

God help us.

 

[The T]

Well.. I could then assume with the same amount of background information on you, that you are suffering from mental retardation, probably stemming from drug use... this is based on experience being around it in Baltimore city in my youth, watching friends and neighbors lose their mental faculties and ability to reason after heavy drug use... see how easy it is to paint a picture from your own imagination with no actual information??

And who said anything or even gave a hint of anything about 'empathy for the rich'.... I am the BIGGEST proponent of equal treatment for all, with all the positives and negatives that go with it...

You are posting like an ignorant, snot nosed brat that gets talking point information and slogans from activists and winger blogs... sitting around a tree at the local college with bunches of people sporting dreadlocks and Che Guevara t-shirts, drinking Sobe before going back to your beater car that smells of bong water and is decorated with Obama stickers.... See, another easy assumption without information

I can't logically defend my choice of words, because I don't know the girl. I did it out of anger in response to when conservatives say they empathize with the poor as a reason for their wanting to remove all subsidies. It's ridiculous that the most privileged in society have so much commentary on things they know nothing about. I used her name as enough information to paint of picture of her. Yes, it was stereotyping. Yes, it was "wrong" to generalize.

Koshergl, I apologize.

How privileged do you think I am? See, your problem is that you equate conservatism with wealth, which of course is dumb.... some of the wealthiest people on this planet are left wing moonbats. One can be not so well off and still embrace conservatism... you need to rethink your position a bit... you come off as woefully ignorant... but that can be fixed, unlike stupid.

The left side isn't rich...what are you talking about?

Champions of the POOR that NEED the money they chastise others for having...

/Tongue-In-Cheeck