How do people survive on minimum wage?

[Againsheila]

See the bolded word? YOU should not concentrate on those but focus on the real world.

You're missing the point of the hypothetical, which was meant to illustrate THE REAL WORLD or act as a close approximation. Are you implying that people with families don't ever work minimum wage jobs? If you admit that they do, which is the only answer, then my hypothetical is sound enough to offer a glimpse into that world. That's all. Stop being so fucking angry and self-rigtheous. Godamned conservatives assholes.

The conservative point of view is generally that people who are only qualified to work minimum wage have no business starting a family. You use the minimum wage job to get into the work force and then you otherwise educate and train yourself in marketable skills so that you can house, feed, clothe, education, and otherwise adequately support a family before you begin one. You also get married before you begin one to ensure the maximum opportunity for financial success.

Again, the family who occasionally finds itself accepting minimum wage should be expected to be a fairly rare exception, rather than a rule, and should be expectecd to be a short term thng and not a way of life.

Again, the exceptions should not be the basis for the overall policy.

I agree, no one on a minimum wage should be started a family, but currently they can't even afford to put a roof over their own heads. Back in 1968 when my brother worked a minimum wage job, he had his own apartment, granted it was furnished in lawn chairs and he slept on the floor, but he had his OWN apartment, paid all his utilities, was able to buy a car for transportation AND take night classes at the local community college to better himself. Today people one mw can't even afford the roof, let alone all the rest. It's criminal. And there are millions of people who will never be able to work more than mw jobs, due to whatever, including disabilities. I'm sure, so many would rather they just go on disability and live off of our dime, but why shouldn't they make their own living, why should they depend on the charity of others? And yet at the same time, we have more welfare than ever before due to the low wage jobs which means that our tax dollars are going to support businesses who refuse to pay their employees a living wage. In essence, that welfare is subsidizing those businesses.

 

[Againsheila]

One thing not often considered about minimum wage laws is that they are imposed on workers as much as employers. We're telling people that if the work they have to offer isn't worth the minimum wage, they aren't allowed to work. Why?

Nice try but statistically raising the minimum wage does not result in a net loss of jobs, at least not the last two times it was raised.

 

[DGS49]

Having worked minimum wage jobs myself, here's how it works. You do a good job, come to work on time, don't call in sick, and give your boss a few months to recognize that you are worth more than MW. Assuming s/he doesn't (most people who employ minimum wage people are too stupid to understand why their employees are unreliable and lazy), you start looking for something better.

When you find it, you take it.

And so on, for your entire working life. It works fine.

As for how you live on MW: You can't. What does your cost of living have to do with what you are worth in the marketplace?

It is possible, however, for two people making MW to live prudently and get by. But unless they are idiots they will not be making MW for long. See above.

 

[Foxfyre]

You're missing the point of the hypothetical, which was meant to illustrate THE REAL WORLD or act as a close approximation. Are you implying that people with families don't ever work minimum wage jobs? If you admit that they do, which is the only answer, then my hypothetical is sound enough to offer a glimpse into that world. That's all. Stop being so fucking angry and self-rigtheous. Godamned conservatives assholes.

The conservative point of view is generally that people who are only qualified to work minimum wage have no business starting a family. You use the minimum wage job to get into the work force and then you otherwise educate and train yourself in marketable skills so that you can house, feed, clothe, education, and otherwise adequately support a family before you begin one. You also get married before you begin one to ensure the maximum opportunity for financial success.

Again, the family who occasionally finds itself accepting minimum wage should be expected to be a fairly rare exception, rather than a rule, and should be expectecd to be a short term thng and not a way of life.

Again, the exceptions should not be the basis for the overall policy.

I agree, no one on a minimum wage should be started a family, but currently they can't even afford to put a roof over their own heads. Back in 1968 when my brother worked a minimum wage job, he had his own apartment, granted it was furnished in lawn chairs and he slept on the floor, but he had his OWN apartment, paid all his utilities, was able to buy a car for transportation AND take night classes at the local community college to better himself. Today people one mw can't even afford the roof, let alone all the rest. It's criminal. And there are millions of people who will never be able to work more than mw jobs, due to whatever, including disabilities. I'm sure, so many would rather they just go on disability and live off of our dime, but why shouldn't they make their own living, why should they depend on the charity of others? And yet at the same time, we have more welfare than ever before due to the low wage jobs which means that our tax dollars are going to support businesses who refuse to pay their employees a living wage. In essence, that welfare is subsidizing those businesses.

I understand what you are saying Sheila, and I am not unsympathetic to it either. Whether one can subsist on minimum wage as a single person really depends on what part of the country one lives in and what one considers 'living'. But regardless of what we think is the absolute minimum wage people should earn, labor is still only worth what the market will bear. You force employers to pay more in order to hire anybody, fine. But you shut more and more people out of the entry level jobs market and force them into being subsidized by others. And you force prices higher so that the cheap apartment is less cheap as are the utilities and food and clothing.

Both my husband and I come from rather humble circumstances and we went through a number of paycheck to paycheck years in which the money ran out well ahead of the weekend in a lot of weeks. We hated poverty. Loathed it. And resented it. We didn't like it so much we were determined to do whatever we had to do to get out of it. So we did. We did that by making our labor/contribution to our employers, worth much more than minimum wage.

Had somebody paid us to be poor, would we have pulled ourselves out of the mess we were in? If we had been paid a 'living wage' to do those minimum wage jobs, would we have made the effort to learn marketable skills that were worth much more? I don't know. I know a whole lot of people don't.

 

[initforme]

"Wealth inequality is morally fine with me - I truly don't give a shit how little or how much someone makes. What I care about is an economy that does not pay its workers enough to consume (either through wages/benefits or "after market" policies that keep the middle class consumer solvent) Once capitalism, through its drive for cheap labor, renders the middle class consumer insolvent, you either go down the dark road of prison or credit: you have to put the superfluous in jail or give them a means to survive through the expansion of credit markets. America started with the credit model, but it is - out of necessity - easing into the prison model. This is what the Reagan War on Drugs was meant to do: boost the repressive power of the state in the face of unwinding social programs. When you start paying workers less money, you need more prison beds, more Rush Limbaugh (propoganda) and more religion ("hope"). "

Posted by Londoner. Indisputable. Perfect look at what this country is all about. Yes it is factually obvious the middle class is taking it on the chin. When their buying power is gone, the economy will tank. Right now we are working towards those with all versus those with nothing. The once thriving middle class is slowly and systematically being told to work more for less. Less benefits, less money, etc. At that point america is no longer a democratic republic. Somewhat closer to a plucocracy.

 

[koshergrl]

You're missing the point of the hypothetical, which was meant to illustrate THE REAL WORLD or act as a close approximation. Are you implying that people with families don't ever work minimum wage jobs? If you admit that they do, which is the only answer, then my hypothetical is sound enough to offer a glimpse into that world. That's all. Stop being so fucking angry and self-rigtheous. Godamned conservatives assholes.

The conservative point of view is generally that people who are only qualified to work minimum wage have no business starting a family. You use the minimum wage job to get into the work force and then you otherwise educate and train yourself in marketable skills so that you can house, feed, clothe, education, and otherwise adequately support a family before you begin one. You also get married before you begin one to ensure the maximum opportunity for financial success.

Again, the family who occasionally finds itself accepting minimum wage should be expected to be a fairly rare exception, rather than a rule, and should be expectecd to be a short term thng and not a way of life.

Again, the exceptions should not be the basis for the overall policy.

I agree, no one on a minimum wage should be started a family, but currently they can't even afford to put a roof over their own heads. Back in 1968 when my brother worked a minimum wage job, he had his own apartment, granted it was furnished in lawn chairs and he slept on the floor, but he had his OWN apartment, paid all his utilities, was able to buy a car for transportation AND take night classes at the local community college to better himself. Today people one mw can't even afford the roof, let alone all the rest. It's criminal. And there are millions of people who will never be able to work more than mw jobs, due to whatever, including disabilities. I'm sure, so many would rather they just go on disability and live off of our dime, but why shouldn't they make their own living, why should they depend on the charity of others? And yet at the same time, we have more welfare than ever before due to the low wage jobs which means that our tax dollars are going to support businesses who refuse to pay their employees a living wage. In essence, that welfare is subsidizing those businesses.

There are so many thinking and logistical and historical errors in this comment I just don't know where to start.

First of all, one person can still get ahead on a minimum wage job, if they are willing to live frugally and work their ass off.

Second of all, people who get disability don't get disability if they work. They can't do both. If they're disabled, then they get disability, but they don't work at min wage jobs BECAUSE they're disabled. There are programs for disabled workers that will subsidize them working but I've managed that program and it is HEINOUSLY expensive...and the disabled person makes a killing, if they want to do that, because they get their disability and their income.

We don't have increased welfare because we don't pay enough. We have increased welfare because people are being paid to have children, to sit on their asses and smoke dope, and because they are taught from a young age that they DESERVE to have things handed to them, that they OUGHT to have sex with anyone who takes their fancy, that they have a right to what they perceive as "happiness" regardless of the dumbass choices they make. They're taught that children are secondary to themselves, and that they aren't expected to set goals or adhere to a code of honor (or even behavior) that could help establish them as anything other than a drain on society. They think that if they work, then they're doing something wrong, and somebody needs to take care of that for them.

 

[Againsheila]

The conservative point of view is generally that people who are only qualified to work minimum wage have no business starting a family. You use the minimum wage job to get into the work force and then you otherwise educate and train yourself in marketable skills so that you can house, feed, clothe, education, and otherwise adequately support a family before you begin one. You also get married before you begin one to ensure the maximum opportunity for financial success.

Again, the family who occasionally finds itself accepting minimum wage should be expected to be a fairly rare exception, rather than a rule, and should be expectecd to be a short term thng and not a way of life.

Again, the exceptions should not be the basis for the overall policy.

I agree, no one on a minimum wage should be started a family, but currently they can't even afford to put a roof over their own heads. Back in 1968 when my brother worked a minimum wage job, he had his own apartment, granted it was furnished in lawn chairs and he slept on the floor, but he had his OWN apartment, paid all his utilities, was able to buy a car for transportation AND take night classes at the local community college to better himself. Today people one mw can't even afford the roof, let alone all the rest. It's criminal. And there are millions of people who will never be able to work more than mw jobs, due to whatever, including disabilities. I'm sure, so many would rather they just go on disability and live off of our dime, but why shouldn't they make their own living, why should they depend on the charity of others? And yet at the same time, we have more welfare than ever before due to the low wage jobs which means that our tax dollars are going to support businesses who refuse to pay their employees a living wage. In essence, that welfare is subsidizing those businesses.

I understand what you are saying Sheila, and I am not unsympathetic to it either. Whether one can subsist on minimum wage as a single person really depends on what part of the country one lives in and what one considers 'living'. But regardless of what we think is the absolute minimum wage people should earn, labor is still only worth what the market will bear. You force employers to pay more in order to hire anybody, fine. But you shut more and more people out of the entry level jobs market and force them into being subsidized by others. And you force prices higher so that the cheap apartment is less cheap as are the utilities and food and clothing.

Both my husband and I come from rather humble circumstances and we went through a number of paycheck to paycheck years in which the money ran out well ahead of the weekend in a lot of weeks. We hated poverty. Loathed it. And resented it. We didn't like it so much we were determined to do whatever we had to do to get out of it. So we did. We did that by making our labor/contribution to our employers, worth much more than minimum wage.

Had somebody paid us to be poor, would we have pulled ourselves out of the mess we were in? If we had been paid a 'living wage' to do those minimum wage jobs, would we have made the effort to learn marketable skills that were worth much more? I don't know. I know a whole lot of people don't.

Foxy, I love you, but when you made minimum wage, it bought a lot more than it does today. It's a lot easier to work your way up when you can afford a roof over your head AND community college classes, than when you can't even afford a roof over your head.

 

[Mac1958]

Having worked minimum wage jobs myself, here's how it works. You do a good job, come to work on time, don't call in sick, and give your boss a few months to recognize that you are worth more than MW.

Asking too much. What are you, GREEDY?


.

 

[Againsheila]

The conservative point of view is generally that people who are only qualified to work minimum wage have no business starting a family. You use the minimum wage job to get into the work force and then you otherwise educate and train yourself in marketable skills so that you can house, feed, clothe, education, and otherwise adequately support a family before you begin one. You also get married before you begin one to ensure the maximum opportunity for financial success.

Again, the family who occasionally finds itself accepting minimum wage should be expected to be a fairly rare exception, rather than a rule, and should be expectecd to be a short term thng and not a way of life.

Again, the exceptions should not be the basis for the overall policy.

I agree, no one on a minimum wage should be started a family, but currently they can't even afford to put a roof over their own heads. Back in 1968 when my brother worked a minimum wage job, he had his own apartment, granted it was furnished in lawn chairs and he slept on the floor, but he had his OWN apartment, paid all his utilities, was able to buy a car for transportation AND take night classes at the local community college to better himself. Today people one mw can't even afford the roof, let alone all the rest. It's criminal. And there are millions of people who will never be able to work more than mw jobs, due to whatever, including disabilities. I'm sure, so many would rather they just go on disability and live off of our dime, but why shouldn't they make their own living, why should they depend on the charity of others? And yet at the same time, we have more welfare than ever before due to the low wage jobs which means that our tax dollars are going to support businesses who refuse to pay their employees a living wage. In essence, that welfare is subsidizing those businesses.

There are so many thinking and logistical and historical errors in this comment I just don't know where to start.

First of all, one person can still get ahead on a minimum wage job, if they are willing to live frugally and work their ass off.

Second of all, people who get disability don't get disability if they work. They can't do both. If they're disabled, then they get disability, but they don't work at min wage jobs BECAUSE they're disabled.

We don't have increased welfare because we don't pay enough. We have increased welfare because people are being paid to have children, to sit on their asses and smoke dope, and because they are taught from a young age that they DESERVE to have things handed to them. That if they work, then they're doing something wrong, and somebody needs to take care of that for them.

My friend has tourette's syndrome. Technically she is disabled, she's not lived on the government's dime one day of her life. She's always worked, always in minimum wage jobs. Currently she's working as a maid, it's not likely she will ever be able to advance, she's 56 now and her body is giving out from the hard physical labor she's done all her life. Guess what, she doesn't make enough to pay for her own apartment. After 35 plus years of working she still can't afford her own apartment and utilities. Why do you believe she shouldn't get paid enough to live on?

 

[The Rabbi]

They don't, they can't, I've been saying that for years, more than 75% of those working for minimum wage are adults and minimum wage currently has the lowest spending power in history. In the richest country in the world, the poorest worker should make a living wage.

The great crisis of capitalism is that its drive for higher returns leads it to lower wages - which results in the growing inability for workers to buy what they produce.

There are two common solutions to this demand problem.

[.

blahblahblah.

Can you ever write less than a thesis-length post? I've never seen someone who writes so much and says so little.
Marxism is dead, btw.

 

[koshergrl]

I agree, no one on a minimum wage should be started a family, but currently they can't even afford to put a roof over their own heads. Back in 1968 when my brother worked a minimum wage job, he had his own apartment, granted it was furnished in lawn chairs and he slept on the floor, but he had his OWN apartment, paid all his utilities, was able to buy a car for transportation AND take night classes at the local community college to better himself. Today people one mw can't even afford the roof, let alone all the rest. It's criminal. And there are millions of people who will never be able to work more than mw jobs, due to whatever, including disabilities. I'm sure, so many would rather they just go on disability and live off of our dime, but why shouldn't they make their own living, why should they depend on the charity of others? And yet at the same time, we have more welfare than ever before due to the low wage jobs which means that our tax dollars are going to support businesses who refuse to pay their employees a living wage. In essence, that welfare is subsidizing those businesses.

There are so many thinking and logistical and historical errors in this comment I just don't know where to start.

First of all, one person can still get ahead on a minimum wage job, if they are willing to live frugally and work their ass off.

Second of all, people who get disability don't get disability if they work. They can't do both. If they're disabled, then they get disability, but they don't work at min wage jobs BECAUSE they're disabled.

We don't have increased welfare because we don't pay enough. We have increased welfare because people are being paid to have children, to sit on their asses and smoke dope, and because they are taught from a young age that they DESERVE to have things handed to them. That if they work, then they're doing something wrong, and somebody needs to take care of that for them.

My friend has tourette's syndrome. Technically she is disabled, she's not lived on the government's dime one day of her life. She's always worked, always in minimum wage jobs. Currently she's working as a maid, it's not likely she will ever be able to advance, she's 56 now and her body is giving out from the hard physical labor she's done all her life. Guess what, she doesn't make enough to pay for her own apartment. After 35 plus years of working she still can't afford her own apartment and utilities. Why do you believe she shouldn't get paid enough to live on?

That is because of the choices she's made in her life, and they are coming home to roost.

If she can't pay for her apartment, she needs to get a cheaper one or she needs to pick up #2 job. It's not the responsibility of the motel to make sure she has a nice apartment. She is an adult, she's been one for some time. I imagine at age 30 (and really, at age 20) she should have been looking down the road to this moment and making a PLAN that would allow her to continue to support herself.

Like maybe live in a $150/month studio apartment with utilities paid, so she could stash away $150 a month for her old age.

Or maybe see what sort of education she could obtain that would allow her to work at a higher paying job at some point.

She made some bad choices. And now she's hurting. That's the way it works. When she's 60 she'll be eligible for social security...right now she's got ten years to get through, and she'd better up her game or things will get worse before they get better.

Of course, when she SHOULD have upped her game was 30 years ago. But she didn't.

 

[DiamondDave]

I agree, no one on a minimum wage should be started a family, but currently they can't even afford to put a roof over their own heads. Back in 1968 when my brother worked a minimum wage job, he had his own apartment, granted it was furnished in lawn chairs and he slept on the floor, but he had his OWN apartment, paid all his utilities, was able to buy a car for transportation AND take night classes at the local community college to better himself. Today people one mw can't even afford the roof, let alone all the rest. It's criminal. And there are millions of people who will never be able to work more than mw jobs, due to whatever, including disabilities. I'm sure, so many would rather they just go on disability and live off of our dime, but why shouldn't they make their own living, why should they depend on the charity of others? And yet at the same time, we have more welfare than ever before due to the low wage jobs which means that our tax dollars are going to support businesses who refuse to pay their employees a living wage. In essence, that welfare is subsidizing those businesses.

There are so many thinking and logistical and historical errors in this comment I just don't know where to start.

First of all, one person can still get ahead on a minimum wage job, if they are willing to live frugally and work their ass off.

Second of all, people who get disability don't get disability if they work. They can't do both. If they're disabled, then they get disability, but they don't work at min wage jobs BECAUSE they're disabled.

We don't have increased welfare because we don't pay enough. We have increased welfare because people are being paid to have children, to sit on their asses and smoke dope, and because they are taught from a young age that they DESERVE to have things handed to them. That if they work, then they're doing something wrong, and somebody needs to take care of that for them.

My friend has tourette's syndrome. Technically she is disabled, she's not lived on the government's dime one day of her life. She's always worked, always in minimum wage jobs. Currently she's working as a maid, it's not likely she will ever be able to advance, she's 56 now and her body is giving out from the hard physical labor she's done all her life. Guess what, she doesn't make enough to pay for her own apartment. After 35 plus years of working she still can't afford her own apartment and utilities. Why do you believe she shouldn't get paid enough to live on?

And why is it always minimum wage jobs? I know 2 (yes 2, and 1 has complex verbal outbursts) people with tourettes working in IT, making damn good money... My neighbor has a daughter who has downs syndrome. She works as a dishwasher and bus person at a nice restaurant and while living in her mom's place she's saved over 100K in her bank account, while giving her mom $200 a month for her 'basement rent'. Hell, I don't have 100K in MY account!!... even for those with challenges, there is more than minimum wage

 

[initforme]

"Having worked minimum wage jobs myself, here's how it works. You do a good job, come to work on time, don't call in sick, and give your boss a few months to recognize that you are worth more than MW."

Pure drivel. You are assuming that most bosses would actually recognize how hard you work. Fact is most dont and could care less. Their bottom line is to pay you as little as possible yet squeeze the most they can out of you. In capitalism its all about the worker bettering themselves.
1) post HS training is mandatory nowadays.
2) the second you secure a higher paying job, you quit the old one. And you dont owe your employer so much as a goodbye. Out the door. This is survival of the fittest folks. Obviously if they wont match the better pay then they arent worth working for, correct?
3) The work world will always be and has always been about workers versus their employers. It sounds worse than it really is but you always have to be looking for better. Dont get so comfortable on a job that you actually do it for too long. Even if you somehow manage to like it. Change is always good for a person. The longer you work for a company, the easier it is for them to forget about you. If you work hard for them thats all you owe them. Nothing more, not even a thanks. They need to know that their best workers are always looking for better, and better definitely exists. Make them scared you will up and leave. If they want you, they will pay you. You need to become a high level producer. Then you are valuable. Then somehow some way you kinda stick it to em. In other words, you move on.

 

[koshergrl]

In the town I used to live in there was a guy called "Bottle Bob". Diminished capacity person, didn't work...but he walked around all day and night collecting cans and bottles and recycle stuff....

He paid for his own apartment (a disgusting hellhole, incidentally) and his care, and took himself and one caregiver to Hawaii every year.

 

[Foxfyre]

I agree, no one on a minimum wage should be started a family, but currently they can't even afford to put a roof over their own heads. Back in 1968 when my brother worked a minimum wage job, he had his own apartment, granted it was furnished in lawn chairs and he slept on the floor, but he had his OWN apartment, paid all his utilities, was able to buy a car for transportation AND take night classes at the local community college to better himself. Today people one mw can't even afford the roof, let alone all the rest. It's criminal. And there are millions of people who will never be able to work more than mw jobs, due to whatever, including disabilities. I'm sure, so many would rather they just go on disability and live off of our dime, but why shouldn't they make their own living, why should they depend on the charity of others? And yet at the same time, we have more welfare than ever before due to the low wage jobs which means that our tax dollars are going to support businesses who refuse to pay their employees a living wage. In essence, that welfare is subsidizing those businesses.

I understand what you are saying Sheila, and I am not unsympathetic to it either. Whether one can subsist on minimum wage as a single person really depends on what part of the country one lives in and what one considers 'living'. But regardless of what we think is the absolute minimum wage people should earn, labor is still only worth what the market will bear. You force employers to pay more in order to hire anybody, fine. But you shut more and more people out of the entry level jobs market and force them into being subsidized by others. And you force prices higher so that the cheap apartment is less cheap as are the utilities and food and clothing.

Both my husband and I come from rather humble circumstances and we went through a number of paycheck to paycheck years in which the money ran out well ahead of the weekend in a lot of weeks. We hated poverty. Loathed it. And resented it. We didn't like it so much we were determined to do whatever we had to do to get out of it. So we did. We did that by making our labor/contribution to our employers, worth much more than minimum wage.

Had somebody paid us to be poor, would we have pulled ourselves out of the mess we were in? If we had been paid a 'living wage' to do those minimum wage jobs, would we have made the effort to learn marketable skills that were worth much more? I don't know. I know a whole lot of people don't.

Foxy, I love you, but when you made minimum wage, it bought a lot more than it does today. It's a lot easier to work your way up when you can afford a roof over your head AND community college classes, than when you can't even afford a roof over your head.

I love you too babe, but minimum wage is a number. In Stinnett Texas you can live on it. In Santa Fe NM you cannot. My daughter makes a fantastic salary where she is across the river from the Pentagon in DC. She cannot afford to buy a house there, however. On the same salary here in Albuquerque, she could buy a terrfic home and live very well indeed.

But circumstances change, what we expect as 'normal' changes over the decades, and what we all must do to survive in life changes. I have worked for as little as 60 cents an hour in the college laundry--my first full time job paid $1.00/hour--and I have worked for as much as $100/hour as a consultant (though those jobs were pretty infrequent.) We have earned much less over the years when our buying power was much more--we have made good salaries in places it was difficult to save anytthing.

The thing is no artificial 'living wage' is going to help if it shuts people out of the job market altogether or if it is inflationary to the point that nothing is gained.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Holy shit. Every nutter here has a personal story of triumph over adversity! It is so inspirational.

 

[initforme]

Well I am ready to retire for good. My son is now basically running my company.
I'm 75 now. In reality thats too old for ANYONE to work. I've saved but I fear I've worked far too long. Missed out on some good times. I really am angry at myself for this but retirement should cure it. Working until you drop dead is shameful.

 

[Avatar4321]

Holy shit. Every nutter here has a personal story of triumph over adversity! It is so inspirational.

If you haven't triumphed over adversity it's only because you havent tried.

 

[initforme]

It always comes down to luck. Hard work and good preparation helps push the odds in your favor. But many work incredibly hard and never get ahead and it has zero to do with their efforts or choices.

 

[koshergrl]

Bullshit.

Luck can get you in a good spot...but people who work incredibly hard and don't get ahead are making some bad decisions, for the most part.

People can overcome ANYTHING. But they have to knuckle down and keep going.