How do the non-spiritual explain it?

[OZman]

Seems some people are investigating these experiences.


The Mystery of Perception During Near Death Experiences - Pim van Lommel:

 

[Inevitable]

Thanks, Corky... now can we hear from those who still have living brain cells?

I think when someone dismisses the literal millions upon millions of accounts comprising my rather long list, it illustrates a person who has tuned out all rationality and exists in a state of total denial. I'm not claiming there is something to everything, but that much of something has to be significant. It's at the least, reasonable to consider there might be other forces at work.

People like “Theoldschool” are here because most likely they are afraid. They are looking for affirmation that they do not have to be accountable to any God because they want to live their lives as they please but also hedge their bet. They want some documentation that shows they tried to find out if there was a God, convinced themselves through the lamest of excuses there was no sign of God, and now they can continue on their merry way. Misery loves company to put it another way.

His answers were a total embarrassment devoid of a scientific explanation. For instance, in 2008 when a non-believing neurosurgeon, Dr Eban Alexander, lay near death in a coma for six days because of bacterial meningitis and the doctors are ready to pull the plug on him, all of a sudden his pop open and he makes a remarkable fully recovery. While he had virtually no brain function he experienced paradise as an atheist. He did his research afterwards demonstrating how his condition could never have allowed such brain activity. But no one wants to believe his scientific work. Why? Because his science gives evidence for God not the opposite. Deniers of God only point to science when it supports their wishes and dismisses its findings when it proves them wrong.

There are many souls on earth that are either brought back from purgatory or are having some connect with what God intends. Ghosts, yes, in some cases. Spells and curses are too often real.

You will not get anyone on the side of the skeptic here to admit they could very well have been wrong because they have already been given the evidence. Their preferred defense is to try to pick them off one by one, but from my experience, it comes off sad. Everything is hallucination or mass hallucination when thousands see the same thing, or of course, all the eye witnesses are liars.

I still love the events from Indiana where the devils scared the hell out of the social workers and law enforcement personnel who came to investigate the strange occurrences in that house. Once again, the deniers of the supernatural here had nothing but lame counter-explanations. I no longer expect anything else.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25943051

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/01/25/the-disposession-of-latoya-ammons/4892553/

^ this nigga cray

I should be surprised you have nothing intelligent to say?

Life in general and people in general cause me a lot of sorrow and concern. We are not playing a game.

Don't worry about atheists. You should really be concerned with proper evangelism. Nothing turns people off more than a believer with a bee in her bonnet about an atheist person.

Yes, agreed. I do not share my thoughts with others in the real world in a know-it-all way. I am charitable and I do not make them feel inferior.

But on forums such as this, the game changes. Atheists or agnostics or even unbalanced believers are not interested in being pursued with flowers and kindness. They have more of a mission to mock and to lay waste to whatever Christianity says with boldness or assuredness. And if someone is going to be laughing at the evidence then they need to be challenged. They may take offense here in some way, but so what? Maybe later on in their own bedroom they can become more open and honest and introspective. If they begin to pray and feel a bit scared none of us bullies will even know, nor will they ever have to admit anything to me or you. Maybe some scornful yet challenging words is just the thing? I personally do not care if I am not welcome.

That is a good point.

 

[Boss]

So when somebody sees the northern lights and says it's magical unicorns you accept that as equal to the explanation that it's solar wind?
There has been rational explanations for everything that you listed. Give me a reason to believe that it's some fantastical explanation.

We understand the scientific reasons for the northern lights. What would the northern lights mean if there were no human life to observe them? Think about it before answering.

There has not been rational explanations for most of the things I listed. If there were a rational explanation, they wouldn't be a thing. I didn't cite 8-9 specific incidents, I listed about a dozen general areas, each of which has a significant and recognizable number of people who profess to have some kind of experience or evidence that nature can't explain. These people, across the assorted fields listed, number in the billions. Many of them are credible and reliable people... pilots, astronauts, scientists, doctors... are they all looney tunes? 100% of them? In all the history of man?

I just can't buy that, sorry! I think there are forces beyond physical nature as we know it. If you want to say that is "supernatural" it's up to you, I think it's more a part of nature we don't see.

 

[Inevitable]

So when somebody sees the northern lights and says it's magical unicorns you accept that as equal to the explanation that it's solar wind?
There has been rational explanations for everything that you listed. Give me a reason to believe that it's some fantastical explanation.

We understand the scientific reasons for the northern lights. What would the northern lights mean if there were no human life to observe them? Think about it before answering.

There has not been rational explanations for most of the things I listed. If there were a rational explanation, they wouldn't be a thing. I didn't cite 8-9 specific incidents, I listed about a dozen general areas, each of which has a significant and recognizable number of people who profess to have some kind of experience or evidence that nature can't explain. These people, across the assorted fields listed, number in the billions. Many of them are credible and reliable people... pilots, astronauts, scientists, doctors... are they all looney tunes? 100% of them? In all the history of man?

I just can't buy that, sorry! I think there are forces beyond physical nature as we know it. If you want to say that is "supernatural" it's up to you, I think it's more a part of nature we don't see.

If you believe in ghosts and such why not in leprechauns the tooth fairy and Santa clause.

These fables are made up to explain the unexplained. To believe that certain phenomena are ghosts is like believing that zuse is forging lighting bolts.

I think it's superstition and it doesn't serve any valuable purpose.

 

[Boss]

If you believe in ghosts and such why not in leprechauns the tooth fairy and Santa clause.

These fables are made up to explain the unexplained. To believe that certain phenomena are ghosts is like believing that zuse is forging lighting bolts.

I think it's superstition and it doesn't serve any valuable purpose.

It's not a matter of "believing in" something. There is very little I am willing to accept on blind faith. I've said nothing about believing in ghosts. I don't know if ghosts exist or not. I don't know if some people have psychic abilities or paranormal experiences. I'm not placing my certification on any individual account, but the fact is, this kind of thing is not only normal in everyday life, but prevalent. Across a wide array of areas as mentioned in the OP, across millions and billions of people through thousands of years... trying to argue that 100%, without exception, is total made-up, hallucinated or delusional garbage, is just laughable to me. Even if it's true, how would you possibly know? It's the epitome of arrogance to hold this view and say you are "open minded" because you just aren't.

 

[Inevitable]

If you believe in ghosts and such why not in leprechauns the tooth fairy and Santa clause.

These fables are made up to explain the unexplained. To believe that certain phenomena are ghosts is like believing that zuse is forging lighting bolts.

I think it's superstition and it doesn't serve any valuable purpose.

It's not a matter of "believing in" something. There is very little I am willing to accept on blind faith. I've said nothing about believing in ghosts. I don't know if ghosts exist or not. I don't know if some people have psychic abilities or paranormal experiences. I'm not placing my certification on any individual account, but the fact is, this kind of thing is not only normal in everyday life, but prevalent. Across a wide array of areas as mentioned in the OP, across millions and billions of people through thousands of years... trying to argue that 100%, without exception, is total made-up, hallucinated or delusional garbage, is just laughable to me. Even if it's true, how would you possibly know? It's the epitome of arrogance to hold this view and say you are "open minded" because you just aren't.

Well it isn't freaking magic.

 

[Boss]

If you believe in ghosts and such why not in leprechauns the tooth fairy and Santa clause.

These fables are made up to explain the unexplained. To believe that certain phenomena are ghosts is like believing that zuse is forging lighting bolts.

I think it's superstition and it doesn't serve any valuable purpose.

It's not a matter of "believing in" something. There is very little I am willing to accept on blind faith. I've said nothing about believing in ghosts. I don't know if ghosts exist or not. I don't know if some people have psychic abilities or paranormal experiences. I'm not placing my certification on any individual account, but the fact is, this kind of thing is not only normal in everyday life, but prevalent. Across a wide array of areas as mentioned in the OP, across millions and billions of people through thousands of years... trying to argue that 100%, without exception, is total made-up, hallucinated or delusional garbage, is just laughable to me. Even if it's true, how would you possibly know? It's the epitome of arrogance to hold this view and say you are "open minded" because you just aren't.

Well it isn't freaking magic.

In a certain way of looking at it... it might be magic?

Or at least what we understand magic to be.. an illusion that makes things appear a certain way to us. I can't offer a blanket explanation for the billions and billions of instances, that's the point. I'm rational enough to think that some number of them must be valid. But if any are valid, they all could be. And this is why we get this quirky absolutist denial on behalf of the non-spiritual... totally contradicting free and open thought and closed to any and all possibility.

It's amusing to me how human beings tend to think of us as the most aware and intelligent thing in the entire universe. That what we understand of physics and physical nature is all there is to know, that nothing else in the universe could possibly have more insight than us.... simple carbon-based life forms on a tiny rock orbiting an average sun. We're IT! We're the Shit!

I can't be that naive and foolish. I believe there are other dimensional forces to the universe, and we are simply not aware of them because we lack the proper senses to be aware of them... Let me demonstrate what I mean here.... There is a musical symphony playing in your room right now but you don't hear it. Is that hard to believe? Yes, but it's true. Turn on your radio and see! You are simply not equipped with the capability of reading the waves and disseminating them into anything. If you are in any kind of major city, there is data flowing all around you right now, going here and there through WY-FI and cell signals... dark energy and matter are passing through you as if you were a ghost.... strange and unusual things are happening but you're not aware of them.

To think that our five limited human senses, none of which we are superior at btw, is all there is to the entire universe, takes a leap of faith greater than any God man ever created, in my opinion.

 

[Abishai100]

The Stylistics Approach

This is definitely a worthwhile perspective on the historic problem of skepticism. I'm glad this thread is receiving attention.

When we look at ends-based revolutions such as the Guevara-Castro overthrow of the undesirable Batista regime in Cuba, we find studied pragmatism stories about resource redistribution as well as culture-rich sentimentalism stories about self-governance drama (i.e., the positive rebellious human spirit).

When we celebrate political events or achievements, are we giving into emotional immaturity or silly sentimentalism? Why do we celebrate the 4th of July in the USA?

When the AIDS community engages in mass political rallies, why do we become doubly concerned about the dangers of sentimentalism as well as the urgency of political initiative?

Maybe such questions will reveal why Native American cultures celebrate ideas about Earth's natural spirits and ghosts. Maybe these cultures are fascinated by 'the problem of exuberance.'

We can perhaps approach this problem then with a stylistics angle.

 

[Inevitable]

If you believe in ghosts and such why not in leprechauns the tooth fairy and Santa clause.

These fables are made up to explain the unexplained. To believe that certain phenomena are ghosts is like believing that zuse is forging lighting bolts.

I think it's superstition and it doesn't serve any valuable purpose.

It's not a matter of "believing in" something. There is very little I am willing to accept on blind faith. I've said nothing about believing in ghosts. I don't know if ghosts exist or not. I don't know if some people have psychic abilities or paranormal experiences. I'm not placing my certification on any individual account, but the fact is, this kind of thing is not only normal in everyday life, but prevalent. Across a wide array of areas as mentioned in the OP, across millions and billions of people through thousands of years... trying to argue that 100%, without exception, is total made-up, hallucinated or delusional garbage, is just laughable to me. Even if it's true, how would you possibly know? It's the epitome of arrogance to hold this view and say you are "open minded" because you just aren't.

Well it isn't freaking magic.

In a certain way of looking at it... it might be magic?

Or at least what we understand magic to be.. an illusion that makes things appear a certain way to us. I can't offer a blanket explanation for the billions and billions of instances, that's the point. I'm rational enough to think that some number of them must be valid. But if any are valid, they all could be. And this is why we get this quirky absolutist denial on behalf of the non-spiritual... totally contradicting free and open thought and closed to any and all possibility.

It's amusing to me how human beings tend to think of us as the most aware and intelligent thing in the entire universe. That what we understand of physics and physical nature is all there is to know, that nothing else in the universe could possibly have more insight than us.... simple carbon-based life forms on a tiny rock orbiting an average sun. We're IT! We're the Shit!

I can't be that naive and foolish. I believe there are other dimensional forces to the universe, and we are simply not aware of them because we lack the proper senses to be aware of them... Let me demonstrate what I mean here.... There is a musical symphony playing in your room right now but you don't hear it. Is that hard to believe? Yes, but it's true. Turn on your radio and see! You are simply not equipped with the capability of reading the waves and disseminating them into anything. If you are in any kind of major city, there is data flowing all around you right now, going here and there through WY-FI and cell signals... dark energy and matter are passing through you as if you were a ghost.... strange and unusual things are happening but you're not aware of them.

To think that our five limited human senses, none of which we are superior at btw, is all there is to the entire universe, takes a leap of faith greater than any God man ever created, in my opinion.

Lol, if we can't perceive things outside of our perception. So what point is there in talking about such things?

 

[Boss]

Lol, if we can't perceive things outside of our perception. So what point is there in talking about such things?

Because the things we don't perceive can still effect us.

We have no perception of tiny living microbes in our milk, that's why we have it pasteurized. If not, we'd drink the microbes, get sick and die. It wouldn't do us much good to refuse to speak of such things.

 

[Hollie]

Lol, if we can't perceive things outside of our perception. So what point is there in talking about such things?

Because the things we don't perceive can still effect us.

We have no perception of tiny living microbes in our milk, that's why we have it pasteurized. If not, we'd drink the microbes, get sick and die. It wouldn't do us much good to refuse to speak of such things.

There's nothing supernatural about milk.

Other than claiming "it's magic", how do the spirit realm'ists explain it?

 

[Inevitable]

Lol, if we can't perceive things outside of our perception. So what point is there in talking about such things?

Because the things we don't perceive can still effect us.

We have no perception of tiny living microbes in our milk, that's why we have it pasteurized. If not, we'd drink the microbes, get sick and die. It wouldn't do us much good to refuse to speak of such things.

Bull shit we have plenty of perception of micro organisms.

Things we don't perceive cannot be perceived. I don't see how there would be any effect on us whatsoever.

 

[Boss]

Lol, if we can't perceive things outside of our perception. So what point is there in talking about such things?

Because the things we don't perceive can still effect us.

We have no perception of tiny living microbes in our milk, that's why we have it pasteurized. If not, we'd drink the microbes, get sick and die. It wouldn't do us much good to refuse to speak of such things.

Bull shit we have plenty of perception of micro organisms.

Things we don't perceive cannot be perceived. I don't see how there would be any effect on us whatsoever.

We didn't have perception of them until Louis Pasteur found a way to observe them. We can't see them with regular human vision and they can kill us. And they did kill us, and people thought supernatural forces were at play because people drank the milk and died. When Pasteur discovered microbes, people thought he was out of his mind.

The point is still there. Something existed outside of our perception until we discovered it.

 

[cnm]

If all the cases could be explained by physical nature, none of the areas I mentioned would amount to anything. That's the whole point here, nature can't explain very much of this stuff. Still... even with science failing to give you any rational answer, you are willing to remain in blissful denial of any possibility outside your narrow thinking.

If 'not making stuff up' is the same as 'blissful denial of any possibility outside your narrow thinking' I plead guilty as charged.

 

[cnm]

That there are 0% events that can be objectively verified as being the work of supernature? Yup.

If all the cases could be explained by physical nature, none of the areas I mentioned would amount to anything.

What part of 'the work of supernature' did you not understand?

 

[cnm]

[..,]
I can't be that naive and foolish.

Ah, I see your problem.

I believe there are other dimensional forces to the universe, and we are simply not aware of them because we lack the proper senses to be aware of them... Let me demonstrate what I mean here.... There is a musical symphony playing in your room right now but you don't hear it. Is that hard to believe? Yes, but it's true. Turn on your radio and see!

And when you turn the light on you can see. A miracle!

 

[Hollie]

Lol, if we can't perceive things outside of our perception. So what point is there in talking about such things?

Because the things we don't perceive can still effect us.

We have no perception of tiny living microbes in our milk, that's why we have it pasteurized. If not, we'd drink the microbes, get sick and die. It wouldn't do us much good to refuse to speak of such things.

Bull shit we have plenty of perception of micro organisms.

Things we don't perceive cannot be perceived. I don't see how there would be any effect on us whatsoever.

We didn't have perception of them until Louis Pasteur found a way to observe them. We can't see them with regular human vision and they can kill us. And they did kill us, and people thought supernatural forces were at play because people drank the milk and died. When Pasteur discovered microbes, people thought he was out of his mind.

The point is still there. Something existed outside of our perception until we discovered it.

And that "something" was entirely natural, as is the case with all of existence. We get it; you have a need to recruit others into your world of supernatural realms. You just continue to fail in your efforts to make any case for those supernatural realms.

 

[Boss]

You two have anything to offer or is it just more of the same?

 

[Boss]

If 'not making stuff up' is the same as 'blissful denial of any possibility outside your narrow thinking' I plead guilty as charged.

Let's get it straight, Bozo... You have offered exactly zero evidence that anyone has "made up" anything. I listed about a dozen general areas of unexplained phenomena, each has thousands and thousands of stories and testimonials over many years. With NO evidence whatsoever, you throw a blanket of denial over everything and then claim you're not being closed minded. What a joke.

Yep, you are guilty of being a closed-minded moron... glad you realize it!

 

[Boss]

We get it; you have a need to recruit others into your world of supernatural realms.

I have no need for anything, especially from you. Is that really what you think is happening here? You think I am somehow expecting my post to make such an impression on you, so as to change your mind about God and cause you to praise me for showing you the light? Hahahahaha... that's funny!

No, I knew when I posted this thread, exactly what was going to happen and it did. All non-spiritual people are automatically forced into a position of absolute denial and closed-minded rejection of all possibility. It's amazing to see how quickly the closed-minded intolerance blossoms.