How do the non-spiritual explain it?

[Inevitable]

We were able to perceive it. Just because nobody bothered until Pasteur, doesn't mean we didn't have the ability.

Nope. We didn't have the ability then and we don't have the ability now. The human eye cannot see microbes, we need a microscope.

a microscope is a tool. Are you saying that the tool gave us the perception? Huh, all this time I was paying a mechanic to fix my car when all I need was a wrench

Now.... we did have the capability of creating a tool to enhance our ability. And once we've torched your rather childish argument, we get back to the point made... there are many things happening in the universe which we have no perception of.

If we have no perception of them, they don't matter.

 

[Boss]

We were able to perceive it. Just because nobody bothered until Pasteur, doesn't mean we didn't have the ability.

Nope. We didn't have the ability then and we don't have the ability now. The human eye cannot see microbes, we need a microscope.

a microscope is a tool. Are you saying that the tool gave us the perception? Huh, all this time I was paying a mechanic to fix my car when all I need was a wrench

Now.... we did have the capability of creating a tool to enhance our ability. And once we've torched your rather childish argument, we get back to the point made... there are many things happening in the universe which we have no perception of.

If we have no perception of them, they don't matter.

It's really not much fun to continue arguing with an idiot.
Yes, the tool gave us the perception we did not have without it. DUH!
Yes, things we have no perception of do matter.. microbes, for instance. DOUBLE DUH!

 

[Inevitable]

We were able to perceive it. Just because nobody bothered until Pasteur, doesn't mean we didn't have the ability.

Nope. We didn't have the ability then and we don't have the ability now. The human eye cannot see microbes, we need a microscope.

a microscope is a tool. Are you saying that the tool gave us the perception? Huh, all this time I was paying a mechanic to fix my car when all I need was a wrench

Now.... we did have the capability of creating a tool to enhance our ability. And once we've torched your rather childish argument, we get back to the point made... there are many things happening in the universe which we have no perception of.

If we have no perception of them, they don't matter.

It's really not much fun to continue arguing with an idiot.
Yes, the tool gave us the perception we did not have without it. DUH!
Yes, things we have no perception of do matter.. microbes, for instance. DOUBLE DUH!

Calling people idiots because your losing the argument?

No the tool did not give us the perception it only aided it. Yes they effected us, we perceive the infections. I've never had any effects from fortune telling or astroprojecting. I have had the flu before.

What effects do all these things have on us?

I can perceive microbes. Are you telling me you can't see this picture?

 

[Inevitable]

When I was in my late teens, I was hitchhiking up the California coast and was picked up by a girl about my age. We hit it off right way and as it was getting late, decided to pull off the side of the road to sleep on a beach somewhere in Mendocino county.

Some time during the night, I had a horrible nightmare, though. It was almost more than a nightmare, because in it, I had a vision of a balding man wearing a hat perched on the cliffs above us intending to kill us both, and in my dream, my perspective kept shifting from me looking up at him, and he looking down at us.

I awoke with a start, looked up and my travelling companion had the most frightened look I have ever seen. One of us said "let's" and the other said "Get out of here", and we ran back to the car and sped off. Once we got in the car, she told me of HER dream, and in that dream she saw a balding man wearing a hat on the cliffs above us intending to kill us and her perspective kept shifting as well. She had the exact same dream at the exact same time and we kept going over and over it with each other and there wasn't a single detail that was different!

Ever since that time, I have been much more willing to believe in matters spiritual.

Believe it or not, your story is not unusual. These things happen every single day to people all over the world. I have three specific instances in my life, where by all accounts, I should be dead. Physics and science says there is no way I should still be alive, yet here I am. I have to assume it just wasn't my time to go. Oh, I could sit here for an hour and type out all the details, but what's the point? The nay-sayers aren't going to believe it. They will always find some way to dismiss what they don't want to accept.

I agree they aren't unusual, but coincidence happens. And because dreams are a reflection of our subconscious state it isn't far fetched that two people in the same time and place share the same subconscious state.

 

[Boss]

We were able to perceive it. Just because nobody bothered until Pasteur, doesn't mean we didn't have the ability.

Nope. We didn't have the ability then and we don't have the ability now. The human eye cannot see microbes, we need a microscope.

a microscope is a tool. Are you saying that the tool gave us the perception? Huh, all this time I was paying a mechanic to fix my car when all I need was a wrench

Now.... we did have the capability of creating a tool to enhance our ability. And once we've torched your rather childish argument, we get back to the point made... there are many things happening in the universe which we have no perception of.

If we have no perception of them, they don't matter.

It's really not much fun to continue arguing with an idiot.
Yes, the tool gave us the perception we did not have without it. DUH!
Yes, things we have no perception of do matter.. microbes, for instance. DOUBLE DUH!

Calling people idiots because your losing the argument?

No the tool did not give us the perception it only aided it. Yes they effected us, we perceive the infections. I've never had any effects from fortune telling or astroprojecting. I have had the flu before.

What effects do all these things have on us?

I can perceive microbes. Are you telling me you can't see this picture?

You're showing us a picture of something we can't see with our normal human vision. We have no perception of it whatsoever. We use a microscope to give us a perception we did not have before. Now, let's go back to before man invented a microscope... Did the flu virus exist? Did it kill people? So.... Even though it was something we had no perception of, it could (and did) kill us. It was important, even though we had no perception of it.

To legitimately try and make the argument that you have made, that things we have no perception of are unimportant... is the proverbial equivalent to sticking your head in the sand.

Apropos for you indeed!

 

[Boss]

I agree they aren't unusual, but coincidence happens. And because dreams are a reflection of our subconscious state it isn't far fetched that two people in the same time and place share the same subconscious state.

Except, it contradicts virtually all the science we understand when it comes to dreams. That's what makes it so bizarre, according to nature, it shouldn't have happened because the odds are too incredible. It's like trying to imagine the possibility that you are typing this same post at the same time I am posting it. Coincidence doesn't explain such a phenomenon. I know that's your "go to guy" here, but rational minds have to think rationally. Yours seems incapable of that.

 

[Boss]

Calling people idiots because your losing the argument?

No, I call you an idiot because you are behaving like an idiot. You've failed to make any valid argument as far as I can see. You've been trying to defeat my argument but you can't. It keeps making you sound like a moron over and over.

 

[MaxGrit]

When I was in my late teens, I was hitchhiking up the California coast and was picked up by a girl about my age. We hit it off right way and as it was getting late, decided to pull off the side of the road to sleep on a beach somewhere in Mendocino county.

Some time during the night, I had a horrible nightmare, though. It was almost more than a nightmare, because in it, I had a vision of a balding man wearing a hat perched on the cliffs above us intending to kill us both, and in my dream, my perspective kept shifting from me looking up at him, and he looking down at us.

I awoke with a start, looked up and my travelling companion had the most frightened look I have ever seen. One of us said "let's" and the other said "Get out of here", and we ran back to the car and sped off. Once we got in the car, she told me of HER dream, and in that dream she saw a balding man wearing a hat on the cliffs above us intending to kill us and her perspective kept shifting as well. She had the exact same dream at the exact same time and we kept going over and over it with each other and there wasn't a single detail that was different!

Ever since that time, I have been much more willing to believe in matters spiritual.

Believe it or not, your story is not unusual. These things happen every single day to people all over the world. I have three specific instances in my life, where by all accounts, I should be dead. Physics and science says there is no way I should still be alive, yet here I am. I have to assume it just wasn't my time to go. Oh, I could sit here for an hour and type out all the details, but what's the point? The nay-sayers aren't going to believe it. They will always find some way to dismiss what they don't want to accept.

You got me curious. Please tell us your story.

 

[Hollie]

Be satisfied that your fears and superstitions are placated by belief in magic and supernaturalism.

"The gawds did it". That addresses all you need to know.

Actually, it doesn't. I need to know HOW God did it. I develop tools like microscopes and telescopes to help me see how God does it. I developed Physics and Quantum mechanics to help me calculate how God does it. I developed a scientific method to evaluate how God does it.

Meanwhile, you sit shivering in your cave in fear of the fire because you don't understand it.

Actually, you will need supernatural telescopes and microscopes to tell you how your supernatural gawds did it.

BTW, the mechanics of fire are well understood. No shivering required.

So tell us about the physics and quantum mechanics you developed to understand your gawds. Have you submitted your developments to the journal Nature for peer review?

No? I'm shocked!

 

[Boss]

Actually, you will need supernatural telescopes and microscopes to tell you how your supernatural gawds did it.

Now you sound just as stupid as Inevitable. Maybe more stupid.

 

[Boss]

You got me curious. Please tell us your story.

It doesn't matter because those who want to dismiss them will do so. Just as they dismiss the millions and millions of such accounts daily. Not all, but I would say MOST of us, can relate to some incident in our life which can't be explained. Back years ago, people may have referred to these things as "miracles" but today we define them as "circumstantial coincidences." Does that make us smarter?

 

[Hollie]

Actually, you will need supernatural telescopes and microscopes to tell you how your supernatural gawds did it.

Now you sound just as stupid as Inevitable. Maybe more stupid.

I see you're angry and frustrated because your arguments are indefensible.

How does anyone investigate the supernatural with natural mechanisms as our only frame of reference? Why don't you identify a single supernatural phenomenon or occurrence that would prevent our current, natural means and methods of investigation? Identify just one.

Can't do that? No, I didn't think so. All your whining and crying about the invention of spirit realms and magical gawds you have concocted is just so much bluster.

 

[Hollie]

You got me curious. Please tell us your story.

It doesn't matter because those who want to dismiss them will do so. Just as they dismiss the millions and millions of such accounts daily. Not all, but I would say MOST of us, can relate to some incident in our life which can't be explained. Back years ago, people may have referred to these things as "miracles" but today we define them as "circumstantial coincidences." Does that make us smarter?

It obviously doesn't make you smarter.

Your alleged "millions and millions of accounts" as a means to support your baseless claims is classic fallacy.

 

[Boss]

Actually, you will need supernatural telescopes and microscopes to tell you how your supernatural gawds did it.

Now you sound just as stupid as Inevitable. Maybe more stupid.

I see you're angry and frustrated because your arguments are indefensible.

How does anyone investigate the supernatural with natural mechanisms as our only frame of reference? Why don't you identify a single supernatural phenomenon or occurrence that would prevent our current, natural means and methods of investigation? Identify just one.

Can't do that? No, I didn't think so. All your whining and crying about the invention of spirit realms and magical gawds you have concocted is just so much bluster.

You are just TOO funny sometimes. You're wanting me to explain to you why physical sciences designed and intended to deal with physical nature and physical phenomenon, are inadequate to evaluate that which is beyond physical nature. This should be obviously self-evident. Are you blond?

This is like trying to say that certain sound frequencies do not exist because we can't reproduce them with a musical instrument. I can tell you that frequencies exist that we can't even hear and you claim I am a denier of music and believer of magic.

How do people investigate spiritual nature? Well, they open their minds first. That's the biggest step. Until you can get beyond that barrier here, you will always be lost in these conversations. You simply don't have a context... you can't relate.... does not compute. Regardless of your incapabilities, others have found many different kinds of ways to interact with spiritual nature. We call it Spirituality.

 

[Boss]

Your alleged "millions and millions of accounts" as a means to support your baseless claims is classic fallacy.

LMFAO.... Yeah because "baseless claims" quite often have millions and millions of testimonial witnesses.

 

[Inevitable]

We were able to perceive it. Just because nobody bothered until Pasteur, doesn't mean we didn't have the ability.

Nope. We didn't have the ability then and we don't have the ability now. The human eye cannot see microbes, we need a microscope.

a microscope is a tool. Are you saying that the tool gave us the perception? Huh, all this time I was paying a mechanic to fix my car when all I need was a wrench

Now.... we did have the capability of creating a tool to enhance our ability. And once we've torched your rather childish argument, we get back to the point made... there are many things happening in the universe which we have no perception of.

If we have no perception of them, they don't matter.

It's really not much fun to continue arguing with an idiot.
Yes, the tool gave us the perception we did not have without it. DUH!
Yes, things we have no perception of do matter.. microbes, for instance. DOUBLE DUH!

Calling people idiots because your losing the argument?

No the tool did not give us the perception it only aided it. Yes they effected us, we perceive the infections. I've never had any effects from fortune telling or astroprojecting. I have had the flu before.

What effects do all these things have on us?

I can perceive microbes. Are you telling me you can't see this picture?

You're showing us a picture of something we can't see with our normal human vision. We have no perception of it whatsoever. We use a microscope to give us a perception we did not have before. Now, let's go back to before man invented a microscope... Did the flu virus exist? Did it kill people? So.... Even though it was something we had no perception of, it could (and did) kill us. It was important, even though we had no perception of it.

To legitimately try and make the argument that you have made, that things we have no perception of are unimportant... is the proverbial equivalent to sticking your head in the sand.

Apropos for you indeed!

I can see it, apparently the people that took the picture can as well. So it seems there is perception of it. We use microscopes to enhance our perception.

If the virus makes people sick than we have perception of it. Sickness is perceivable. We did have perception of it. Fever, body aches, symptoms and so forth. That is perception.

Perception is the effect it has on us. If we have no perception it has no effect. You are conflating perception with seeing. We can't see viruses, but we do get sick. We feel them. Just like heat. We can't see it yet we can still perceive it

You are saying because we can't see things they aren't perceivable. We can't see heat yet we perceive it.

 

[Inevitable]

I agree they aren't unusual, but coincidence happens. And because dreams are a reflection of our subconscious state it isn't far fetched that two people in the same time and place share the same subconscious state.

Except, it contradicts virtually all the science we understand when it comes to dreams. That's what makes it so bizarre, according to nature, it shouldn't have happened because the odds are too incredible. It's like trying to imagine the possibility that you are typing this same post at the same time I am posting it. Coincidence doesn't explain such a phenomenon. I know that's your "go to guy" here, but rational minds have to think rationally. Yours seems incapable of that.

No it doesn't. Coincidence isn't unknown to science.

I think the odds that a leprechaun blew magical pixie dust on them and made them dream the same thing seems far more ridiculous than a coincidence. Substitute any mythical apparition you wish.

Well coincidence does explain a part of it. Standard logic explains the rest.

Rational minds don't jump to the conclusion that coincidence is proof of supernatural phenomena.

 

[Inevitable]

Calling people idiots because your losing the argument?

No, I call you an idiot because you are behaving like an idiot. You've failed to make any valid argument as far as I can see. You've been trying to defeat my argument but you can't. It keeps making you sound like a moron over and over.

I made plenty of valid arguments, they just don't support your conclusions. And because you have both a confirmation bias and an inability to understand that bias, you lash out emotionally out of frustration.

You jumped to a conclusion that similar dreams mean something supernatural happened. I provided a rational alternative and you didn't even consider it.

If you are too emotionally invested in this perhaps it isn't appropriate to have a discussion on it.

 

[hobelim]

LMFAO.... Yeah because "baseless claims" quite often have millions and millions of testimonial witnesses.

The "baseless claims" of millions and millions of testimonial witnesses is that Mohammed was the greatest prophet of God, a holy man and the ultimate example of a perfect life, even though the historical facts indicate that he was a delusional and violent megalomaniac with a little misogyny and pedophilia on the side.

Millions and millions of testimonial witnesses claim that God is edible.

Billions of people making baseless claims, even outright lies.

. Shocking isn't it?

 

[Boss]

I can see it, apparently the people that took the picture can as well. So it seems there is perception of it. We use microscopes to enhance our perception.

And before you enhanced your perception, you had none with this. The organisms still existed before we were able to perceive them. They were still just as important. Your statement was; If we can't perceive it, it's not important. You're wrong. I am right. Get used to that.

If the virus makes people sick than we have perception of it. Sickness is perceivable. We did have perception of it. Fever, body aches, symptoms and so forth. That is perception.

Perception is the effect it has on us. If we have no perception it has no effect. You are conflating perception with seeing. We can't see viruses, but we do get sick. We feel them. Just like heat. We can't see it yet we can still perceive it

You are saying because we can't see things they aren't perceivable. We can't see heat yet we perceive it.

per·cep·tion
pərˈsepSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.

Our perception is limited. We have five physical senses and we're not the BEST at any of them. Some organisms have better sight, hearing, smell, touch and taste. And it's not just that they are better, in some cases they are extraordinarily better. So... We have these five totally inferior senses as humans, and you believe that is the "end all-be all" to the entire universe? Only the things that our feeble human senses can detect are worthwhile?

You may like to know that you have now officially dismissed 96% of the universe as inconsequential and unimportant. Dark energy and dark matter.... called that because they contradict our laws of physics with regard to matter and energy. All the things that make up physical material existence in our universe only represents about 4% of the total volume. 75% of that (3%) is the helium and hydrogen which make up the stars. The remaining 1% is everything else... you and I, all the other elements in the table of elements, the compounds, minerals, enzymes, proteins, organisms, water, carbon, ice... all the "stuff" we see, feel, hear, touch and taste... 1% of the universe.