How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[defcon4]

Wow, Mudda. Leap much?

I like Zen stories and Aesop's Fables. They are all teaching tools. Does this mean Buddhists don't believe the wisdom or learn anything from Zen tales? Or that, because several of Aesop's Fables are obviously fabricated (e.g. talking wolves), that no wisdom nor lessons can be learned from them?

Uh..careful, now they will say that you hold Aesop's Fables to be true... along with Grimm Brothers' and Andersen's Fairy Tales....

 

[Mudda]

No, if the bible is an allegory it does not destroy Christianity or the foundation of the gospels. it liberates Christianity, vindicates the gospels, and turns its waters made bitter by a literal interpretation into a fine wine, the elixir of life..

It means that the bible isn't even believed to be true by those who follow it. Good Grief!!

Wow, Mudda. Leap much?

I like Zen stories and Aesop's Fables. They are all teaching tools. Does this mean Buddhists don't believe the wisdom or learn anything from Zen tales? Or that, because several of Aesop's Fables are obviously fabricated (e.g. talking wolves), that no wisdom nor lessons can be learned from them?

We're talking the bible here, tons of Christians, probably most, believe it literally, like the Pope.

 

[Divine Wind]

We're talking the bible here, tons of Christians, probably most, believe it literally, like the Pope.

Tons? Probably?

Not exactly a rocket scientist, are ya, my little atheist friend? It is logical to do research to back up a hypothesis before drawing a conclusion. Let me help you:

In U.S., 3 in 10 Say They Take the Bible Literally
Three in 10 Americans interpret the Bible literally, saying it is the actual word of God. That is similar to what Gallup has measured over the last two decades, but down from the 1970s and 1980s. A 49% plurality of Americans say the Bible is the inspired word of God but that it should not be taken literally, consistently the most common view in Gallup's nearly 40-year history of this question. Another 17% consider the Bible an ancient book of stories recorded by man.

CatholicHerald.co.uk » Pope insists that Bible’s truth is found in its totality
While Catholics believe the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and that it is true, one cannot take individual biblical quotes or passages and say each one is literally true, Pope Benedict XVI said.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...comments-on-evolution-and-the-catholic-church
Word that Pope Francis on Monday said that faith and creationism aren’t at odds with one another may have shocked many Americans, but the comments don’t actually reflect any deviation from long-standing church teaching.

“The Big-Bang, that is placed today at the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine intervention but exacts it,” Francis said, speaking at a ceremony in the Vatican Gardens inaugurating a bronze bust in honor of his successor, Pope Benedict XVI. “The evolution in nature is not opposed to the notion of Creation, because evolution presupposes the creation of beings that evolve.”

 

[hobelim]

"Many people believe or disbelieve in the existence of God based on the written words of scripture. Those who fail to comprehend the deeper meaning of the words and subjects, that are not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used, are believing or disbelieving in God based on what scripture is not about."

In other words some people read genesis and believe that God created the solar system, the sun the earth, the first plants and animals, etc.in six days. Some people read genesis and do not believe that God created the solar system, the sun the earth, the first plants and animals, etc.in six days.

The truth of the matter is that the story of genesis is not about the creation of the solar system, the sun, the earth, the first plants and animals, etc.in six days, so everyone, believers and disbelievers alike, are believing or disbelieving and arguing with each other over what the story is not about.

Bla bla. Modern Humans have been around for 40,000-1 million years. The Jesus story is only one of many religions. Just like evolution happens slowly so does changing religions. We can't imagine a future where no ones a Mormon Muslim Christian or Jew but it's actually probable. Slowly humans are understanding we and our ancestors have been conned for thousands of years. But we don't tell gramma she's stupid we just let her die happy but we won't be going to ancient churches in 1000 years. God willing. We will make up a new religion. Hopefully one that doesn't start off with lies of past visits from this God. They will simply be called believers

What are you talking about? How is any of that a response to what I said?

Some people read Genesis and believe. Some read genesis and disbelieve. You think you are smarter because you don't believe? Think again.

The story is not about the creation of anything. You and believers have both made the same stupid mistake.

The story was never intended to be taken literally by intelligent people.

So Noah didn't have 2 of every animal and there was no flood?

There was probably a worldwide deluge of some sort but that was only the bases for a teaching. The animals that were spared were most likely of the human sort. Not to mention the implications with the arc of the covenant where animals of the human sort are identified as either clean or unclean.

So the bible is a load of bs. That's what I've always thought.

No.

Let me put it this way. A talking serpent in the very first story in the Bible should be a dead giveaway that it was never meant to be taken literally.


Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you a load of B.S..

 

[sealybobo]

Bla bla. Modern Humans have been around for 40,000-1 million years. The Jesus story is only one of many religions. Just like evolution happens slowly so does changing religions. We can't imagine a future where no ones a Mormon Muslim Christian or Jew but it's actually probable. Slowly humans are understanding we and our ancestors have been conned for thousands of years. But we don't tell gramma she's stupid we just let her die happy but we won't be going to ancient churches in 1000 years. God willing. We will make up a new religion. Hopefully one that doesn't start off with lies of past visits from this God. They will simply be called believers

What are you talking about? How is any of that a response to what I said?

Some people read Genesis and believe. Some read genesis and disbelieve. You think you are smarter because you don't believe? Think again.

The story is not about the creation of anything. You and believers have both made the same stupid mistake.

The story was never intended to be taken literally by intelligent people.

So Noah didn't have 2 of every animal and there was no flood?

There was probably a worldwide deluge of some sort but that was only the bases for a teaching. The animals that were spared were most likely of the human sort. Not to mention the implications with the arc of the covenant where animals of the human sort are identified as either clean or unclean.

So the bible is a load of bs. That's what I've always thought.

No.

Let me put it this way. A talking serpent in the very first story in the Bible should be a dead giveaway that it was never meant to be taken literally.


Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you a load of B.S..

I was just reading the creation story. Why did god bother making land? Wasn't the earth and all the marine life beautiful enough? The story says in the beginning the earth was covered in water. What's wrong with that? Why did he care to put humans and other land creatures when he had octopus, squid, whales, dolphins, shark, fish, etc?

Then God commanded, “Let the water be filled with many kinds of living beings, and let the air be filled with birds.” 21 So God created the great sea monsters, all kinds of creatures that live in the water, and all kinds of birds. And God was pleased with what he saw. 22 He blessed them all and told the creatures that live in the water to reproduce and to fill the sea, and he told the birds to increase in number. 23 Evening passed and morning came—that was the fifth day.

24 Then God commanded, “Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life: domestic and wild, large and small”—and it was done. 25 So God made them all, and he was pleased with what he saw.

Then God said, “And now we will make human beings; they will be like us and resemble us.

US? Who's us? Is there more than one God?

 

[Mudda]

We're talking the bible here, tons of Christians, probably most, believe it literally, like the Pope.

Tons? Probably?

Not exactly a rocket scientist, are ya, my little atheist friend? It is logical to do research to back up a hypothesis before drawing a conclusion. Let me help you:

In U.S., 3 in 10 Say They Take the Bible Literally
Three in 10 Americans interpret the Bible literally, saying it is the actual word of God. That is similar to what Gallup has measured over the last two decades, but down from the 1970s and 1980s. A 49% plurality of Americans say the Bible is the inspired word of God but that it should not be taken literally, consistently the most common view in Gallup's nearly 40-year history of this question. Another 17% consider the Bible an ancient book of stories recorded by man.

CatholicHerald.co.uk » Pope insists that Bible’s truth is found in its totality
While Catholics believe the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and that it is true, one cannot take individual biblical quotes or passages and say each one is literally true, Pope Benedict XVI said.

Pope Francis Says Science and Faith Aren't at Odds
Word that Pope Francis on Monday said that faith and creationism aren’t at odds with one another may have shocked many Americans, but the comments don’t actually reflect any deviation from long-standing church teaching.

“The Big-Bang, that is placed today at the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine intervention but exacts it,” Francis said, speaking at a ceremony in the Vatican Gardens inaugurating a bronze bust in honor of his successor, Pope Benedict XVI. “The evolution in nature is not opposed to the notion of Creation, because evolution presupposes the creation of beings that evolve.”

That's pretty interesting. I wouldn't have thought that there were so many people who call themselves Christians but actually aren't. Because if you don't believe the bible is true, you're not a real Christian anyways, just a faker.

 

[Mudda]

Bla bla. Modern Humans have been around for 40,000-1 million years. The Jesus story is only one of many religions. Just like evolution happens slowly so does changing religions. We can't imagine a future where no ones a Mormon Muslim Christian or Jew but it's actually probable. Slowly humans are understanding we and our ancestors have been conned for thousands of years. But we don't tell gramma she's stupid we just let her die happy but we won't be going to ancient churches in 1000 years. God willing. We will make up a new religion. Hopefully one that doesn't start off with lies of past visits from this God. They will simply be called believers

What are you talking about? How is any of that a response to what I said?

Some people read Genesis and believe. Some read genesis and disbelieve. You think you are smarter because you don't believe? Think again.

The story is not about the creation of anything. You and believers have both made the same stupid mistake.

The story was never intended to be taken literally by intelligent people.

So Noah didn't have 2 of every animal and there was no flood?

There was probably a worldwide deluge of some sort but that was only the bases for a teaching. The animals that were spared were most likely of the human sort. Not to mention the implications with the arc of the covenant where animals of the human sort are identified as either clean or unclean.

So the bible is a load of bs. That's what I've always thought.

No.

Let me put it this way. A talking serpent in the very first story in the Bible should be a dead giveaway that it was never meant to be taken literally.


Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you a load of B.S..

People who don't take the bible literally aren't real Christians, just fakers.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Bla bla. Modern Humans have been around for 40,000-1 million years. The Jesus story is only one of many religions. Just like evolution happens slowly so does changing religions. We can't imagine a future where no ones a Mormon Muslim Christian or Jew but it's actually probable. Slowly humans are understanding we and our ancestors have been conned for thousands of years. But we don't tell gramma she's stupid we just let her die happy but we won't be going to ancient churches in 1000 years. God willing. We will make up a new religion. Hopefully one that doesn't start off with lies of past visits from this God. They will simply be called believers

What are you talking about? How is any of that a response to what I said?

Some people read Genesis and believe. Some read genesis and disbelieve. You think you are smarter because you don't believe? Think again.

The story is not about the creation of anything. You and believers have both made the same stupid mistake.

The story was never intended to be taken literally by intelligent people.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

Sir Isaac Newton, one of history’s greatest scientists, was not only intensely religious but also believed in alchemical transmutation. Alchemy is, however, fully incorrect given our modern understanding of chemistry, the atom and nucleosynthysis.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

I happen to agree with what you posted but what does that have to do with the fact that the story of Genesis has nothing to do with the literal meaning of the words used or that both believers and unbelievers alike have failed to perceive the deeper implications that reveal what the story is actually about?

I don't know. What you wrote made me think of that.

“Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” – Ken Ham

No, if the bible is an allegory it does not destroy Christianity or the foundation of the gospels. it liberates Christianity, vindicates the gospels, and turns its waters made bitter by a literal interpretation into a fine wine, the elixir of life..

Cool Aid, perhaps, but not fine wine.

 

[Divine Wind]

People who don't take the bible literally aren't real Christians, just fakers.

That's pretty interesting. I wouldn't have thought that there were so many people who call themselves Christians but actually aren't. Because if you don't believe the bible is true, you're not a real Christian anyways, just a faker.

LOL. Obviously your problem(s) run a lot deeper than simple ignorance. Have a good life, kid.

 

[defcon4]

People who don't take the bible literally aren't real Christians, just fakers.

You made me laugh, literally. This, I have never heard before. I hope Hobelim and Divine.Wind also found it funny.
So, what you are saying is that those who understand the allegories and the underlying message in the Bible are not Christians?

 

[Mudda]

People who don't take the bible literally aren't real Christians, just fakers.

You made me laugh, literally. This, I have never heard before. I hope Hobelim and Divine.Wind also found it funny.
So, what you are saying is that those who understand the allegories and the underlying message in the Bible are not Christians?

If you don't believe central stories of a faith, it follows that you're not of that faith. You may like certain aspects of a faith, so in this case you'd be Christian friendly, not an actual Christian.

 

[Divine Wind]

People who don't take the bible literally aren't real Christians, just fakers.

You made me laugh, literally. This, I have never heard before. I hope Hobelim and Divine.Wind also found it funny.
So, what you are saying is that those who understand the allegories and the underlying message in the Bible are not Christians?

Agreed. Obviously he doesn't know much about history, faith nor Abrahamic religions, but he's certainly passionate about pressing his beliefs upon others.

 

[Mudda]

People who don't take the bible literally aren't real Christians, just fakers.

You made me laugh, literally. This, I have never heard before. I hope Hobelim and Divine.Wind also found it funny.
So, what you are saying is that those who understand the allegories and the underlying message in the Bible are not Christians?

Agreed. Obviously he doesn't know much about history, faith nor Abrahamic religions, but he's certainly passionate about pressing his beliefs upon others.

The history of religions is that a lot of people like to think themselves as part of the group without actually doing the work or believing in anything that religion says. You can like the things Christ says, but if you don't think that he resurrected, then you're not a real Christian. Seems like quite a simple concept actually.

 

[hobelim]

People who don't take the bible literally aren't real Christians, just fakers.

You made me laugh, literally. This, I have never heard before. I hope Hobelim and Divine.Wind also found it funny.
So, what you are saying is that those who understand the allegories and the underlying message in the Bible are not Christians?

Agreed. Obviously he doesn't know much about history, faith nor Abrahamic religions, but he's certainly passionate about pressing his beliefs upon others.

The history of religions is that a lot of people like to think themselves as part of the group without actually doing the work or believing in anything that religion says. You can like the things Christ says, but if you don't think that he resurrected, then you're not a real Christian. Seems like quite a simple concept actually.

Actually, you are right. I've been thrown out of every bible 'study' that I have ever gone to for disagreeing with one 'belief' or another. I've been told that if you don't believe Jesus is God then you are not a christian, if you don't take the bible literally, you are not a believer, and if you have any rational question you are a demonic disruption.

I have no problem with that..


Still the resurrection is not about the resumption of a former existence after death, it is the entry into a new existence during life..

 

[sealybobo]

People who don't take the bible literally aren't real Christians, just fakers.

You made me laugh, literally. This, I have never heard before. I hope Hobelim and Divine.Wind also found it funny.
So, what you are saying is that those who understand the allegories and the underlying message in the Bible are not Christians?

Agreed. Obviously he doesn't know much about history, faith nor Abrahamic religions, but he's certainly passionate about pressing his beliefs upon others.

The history of religions is that a lot of people like to think themselves as part of the group without actually doing the work or believing in anything that religion says. You can like the things Christ says, but if you don't think that he resurrected, then you're not a real Christian. Seems like quite a simple concept actually.

And the funny thing is if real Christians are being honest they agree with you. But they don't want to lose members so they keep hush hush about it.

We even see born agains saying Catholics aren't real Christians. If they only knew how many of their own members are just there because they like the club

I will be buried as a Greek Orthodox Christian even though I don't believe in God. That my families doing. I'd creamate me

 

[hobelim]

What are you talking about? How is any of that a response to what I said?

Some people read Genesis and believe. Some read genesis and disbelieve. You think you are smarter because you don't believe? Think again.

The story is not about the creation of anything. You and believers have both made the same stupid mistake.

The story was never intended to be taken literally by intelligent people.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

Sir Isaac Newton, one of history’s greatest scientists, was not only intensely religious but also believed in alchemical transmutation. Alchemy is, however, fully incorrect given our modern understanding of chemistry, the atom and nucleosynthysis.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

I happen to agree with what you posted but what does that have to do with the fact that the story of Genesis has nothing to do with the literal meaning of the words used or that both believers and unbelievers alike have failed to perceive the deeper implications that reveal what the story is actually about?

I don't know. What you wrote made me think of that.

“Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” – Ken Ham

No, if the bible is an allegory it does not destroy Christianity or the foundation of the gospels. it liberates Christianity, vindicates the gospels, and turns its waters made bitter by a literal interpretation into a fine wine, the elixir of life..

Cool Aid, perhaps, but not fine wine.

Lets see.

You have heard it said that Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness while living among the wild beasts.

The Churches would have you believe that this means that Jesus went off by himself to fast like some sexless self-denying lonely aesthetic living living in the desert among the wildlife having auditory and visual hallucinations..

However, knowing that the wilderness is coded language for non Jewish areas not under divine law and wild beasts is figurative for the Romans another hidden story is revealed.

The passage really means that Jesus was living in non Jewish areas running around with the Romans presumably doing what Romans do, the exact opposite of a lonely aesthetic.


This would explain Jesus' tendency to drink and party with sinners and prostitutes, etc., and preference for keeping company with all sorts of bad characters.

See?

bitter water turned into wine right in front of your eyes..

 

[Mudda]

Still the resurrection is not about the resumption of a former existence after death, it is the entry into a new existence during life..

No, it's actually about a dead guy coming back to life to prove that he's some sort of god-like being. You can read whatever you want into anything, but a real Christian would say that it's about a dead guy coming back to life for real.

 

[sealybobo]

People who don't take the bible literally aren't real Christians, just fakers.

You made me laugh, literally. This, I have never heard before. I hope Hobelim and Divine.Wind also found it funny.
So, what you are saying is that those who understand the allegories and the underlying message in the Bible are not Christians?

Agreed. Obviously he doesn't know much about history, faith nor Abrahamic religions, but he's certainly passionate about pressing his beliefs upon others.

The history of religions is that a lot of people like to think themselves as part of the group without actually doing the work or believing in anything that religion says. You can like the things Christ says, but if you don't think that he resurrected, then you're not a real Christian. Seems like quite a simple concept actually.

Actually, you are right. I've been thrown out of every bible 'study' that I have ever gone to for disagreeing with one 'belief' or another. I've been told that if you don't believe Jesus is God then you are not a christian, if you don't take the bible literally, you are not a believer, and if you have any rational question you are a demonic disruption.

I have no problem with that..


Still the resurrection is not about the resumption of a former existence after death, it is the entry into a new existence during life..

What do you mean the resurrection is about the entry into a new existence during life?

Do you mean after death?

 

[hobelim]

Still the resurrection is not about the resumption of a former existence after death, it is the entry into a new existence during life..

No, it's actually about a dead guy coming back to life to prove that he's some sort of god-like being. You can read whatever you want into anything, but a real Christian would say that it's about a dead guy coming back to life for real.

Well I guess that I'm just not a real Christian.

Woe is me!

Still, Jesus was raised as an observant Jew who was taught to believe and do the very things he later condemned as sinful, even comparing the pharisees to whitewashed tombs and unmarked graves.

If you have a second grade education it should be no problem making the connection between Jesus renouncing the religious beliefs and practices he held for three decades with rising from the dead after three days.

.

 

[sealybobo]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

Stir cream in your coffee. At first it's kaos but then order follows