How Many Lives Would Have Been Saved Had we Tortured the Captured Paris Terrorist?

[frigidweirdo]

Our ethics include not dropping atomic bombs, not killing people unnecessarily, not torturing people, not doing many things. These aren't difficult to define, we've done it many time.

In a perfect world you're correct, problem is we're human, far from perfect.

Our world is far from perfect and mistakes occur, innocent casualties take place with the best intentions.

Mistakes happen, or "mistakes" are deliberately made?

I'm not talking about the conduct of the war, but the reasons to go to war here. The war in itself was unethical. It wasn't a mistake, it was deliberate.

 

[frigidweirdo]

No.

It was started with a lie. It wasn't necessary. It was done for people's pockets and not for ethical reasons.

Saddam Hussein was the Moral Authority in Iraq, he spent endless hours teaching the masses how to be a good Iraqi...

What's your point?

That evil plus evil makes good? I don't think so.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Clinton says torture doesnt work; nonsense, of course it works.

But I also think we could have gotten the information out of the captured terrorist and saved a lot of lives today.

What say the rest of you?

Yes, if they had waterboarded the terrorist they had in custody, they most likely would have found out about the attack yesterday before it happened. Sleep deprivation, water boarding combined would have been better than telling the media that the suspect was "talking." If anything, they expedited the attack by their own actions. It wasn't a smart move.

Hillary Clinton is a liar. Techniques that do not work are not used. We abandoned waterboarding because it does work. Our enemies are the ones who wanted us to stop waterboarding. Clinton is on the side of the enemy. What do you expect her to say?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

But you dont know that they dont know anything. That is why you torture them, to find out if they have any actionable intel. And it really doesnt take a lot; one thread can unravel yards of whole cloth

You have a terrorist who just killed 30 people, sitting there in a chair, you ask him where he lives and who he lives with, he doesnt answer you. Awww well, lets just forget that. not important information.

You ask him who he lives with. He lives with the other people who carried out this attack. He lives in some flat somewhere. You go, you find evidence of his attack.

What you don't find is evidence of any attack that will happen in 4 months time. because they don't have any evidence that will lead to anyone who is in another cell. Because they've made it so water tight that different cells don't have any contact with each other, they might not even have the same handlers, if they do they won't know who that person is.

So, what does torture get you? It tells you there was an attack. But you knew that already.

Why do you think they've had two attacks in 4 months? Because they can't deal with the manner in which these people are operating.

"They" would include CIA, MI5, Mossad, Belgium and French secret services along with others in Europe, especially Germany.

This happens and they didn't know it was happening. For a reason. Because these guys are operating intelligently. The guys who are controlling them won't be found.

How can you possibly know that?? people fuck up and make mistakes. thats how cases are solved. ever hear the phrase, "turning over every stone" ? theyre looking for a mistake by these terrorists, but the sooner you get the information the better

Yeah, people do fuck up. But then again you have loads of western security agencies acting in secret on this.

And yet they don't get them.

Imagine they turned up at your place, believed you were a suspect, would you accept torture because they believe you to be guilty?

In order to protect what the west stands for, you have to actually stand for it.

Torture, rounding people up and locking them in camps with no due process, all of this is what we're fighting AGAINST and you're telling me we should just turn into ISIS.

Theres a difference between a suspect and a terrorist they catch in the act. If they catch a Terrorist in the act, you damn well know he knows something and you also know hes guilty as hell AND a piece of shit. Torturing a "suspect" I may agree with you, because that is a completely different thing.

But then we still become them. You still want to become them.

We still become them? How so? We're not cutting off heads and putting people in cages to set them on fire or drown them, Fridge. We're a very long way from "becoming them." A VERY long way!

 

[pwjohn]

Clinton says torture doesnt work; nonsense, of course it works.

But I also think we could have gotten the information out of the captured terrorist and saved a lot of lives today.

What say the rest of you?

Why is it our job to save Brussels. Can't they save themselves?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

No.

It was started with a lie. It wasn't necessary. It was done for people's pockets and not for ethical reasons.

Saddam Hussein was the Moral Authority in Iraq, he spent endless hours teaching the masses how to be a good Iraqi...

What's your point?

That evil plus evil makes good? I don't think so.

The lesser of two evils would have been to leave him in power. Removing him destabilized the entire region. Look at Iraq now.

 

[easyt65]

How many lives would have been saved gad Ckintin been paying attention and doing his job - noticing things like a bunch of Muslims wanting learn to FLY airliners but not LAND THEM - instead of getting a BJ from an intern, lying to Americans by claiming 'I did not have sex with that woman, & becoming the 1st President to be dragged into court while still President...for sexual harrassment?

How many livez would have been saved had Obama not given Mexican Drug Cartels weapons? 500+...

How many lives would have been saved if Ibama would have gotten off his ass when told about the terrorist brothers instead of letting them perpetrate the Boston bombings?

12 would have been saved had he not given a visa to a terrorist...

How many American lives would have been spared had Obama enforced immigration law, not engaged in human trafficking to bring illegals here, nit released violent criminals, not allowed sanctuary cities to exist, signed Kate's Law, etc?

How many would have been saved had Obama taken ISIS seriously, tried to DEFEAT them instead of contain' them, if he had not supplied, armed, trained, protected, or allowed them to freely flow into Iraq while calling them the JV Team?

We can play the 'what if' game all day...but YOU wouldn't like it.

 

[pwjohn]

No.

It was started with a lie. It wasn't necessary. It was done for people's pockets and not for ethical reasons.

Saddam Hussein was the Moral Authority in Iraq, he spent endless hours teaching the masses how to be a good Iraqi...

What's your point?

That evil plus evil makes good? I don't think so.

The lesser of two evils would have been to leave him in power. Removing him destabilized the entire region. Look at Iraq now.

And yet another lesser of two evils. Had Obama not gone to war with assad, Isis never would have become a fact f life. The million refugees and such never would have happened because assad would have easily crushed isis at that point in time.

 

[Faun]

How many lives would have been saved gad Ckintin been paying attention and doing his job - noticing things like a bunch of Muslims wanting learn to FLY airliners but not LAND THEM - instead of getting a BJ from an intern, lying to Americans by claiming 'I did not have sex with that woman, & becoming the 1st President to be dragged into court while still President...for sexual harrassment?

How many livez would have been saved had Obama not given Mexican Drug Cartels weapons? 500+...

How many lives would have been saved if Ibama would have gotten off his ass when told about the terrorist brothers instead of letting them perpetrate the Boston bombings?

12 would have been saved had he not given a visa to a terrorist...

How many American lives would have been spared had Obama enforced immigration law, not engaged in human trafficking to bring illegals here, nit released violent criminals, not allowed sanctuary cities to exist, signed Kate's Law, etc?

How many would have been saved had Obama taken ISIS seriously, tried to DEFEAT them instead of contain' them, if he had not supplied, armed, trained, protected, or allowed them to freely flow into Iraq while calling them the JV Team?

We can play the 'what if' game all day...but YOU wouldn't like it.

Fewer Americans were killed under Clinton than Bush because unlike Bush, Clinton did not ignore warnings of a potential terrorist attack. When he was warned in 1998 that terrorists might be seeking to hijack airplanes, he had airport security raised at suspected airports and such an attack was thwarted. At least until Bush became president and they tried again.

 

[Valerie]

Some Americans have convinced themselves that waterboarding is closer to “a dunk in water’’ than to genuine torture. In fact, it is an agonizing, terrifying form of abuse. “The victim experiences the sensations of drowning: struggle, panic, breath-holding, swallowing, vomiting, taking water into the lungs and, eventually, the same feeling of not being able to breathe that one experiences after being punched in the gut,’’ Evan Wallach, a former JAG who teaches the law of war at the Brooklyn and New York law schools, wrote in 2007. “The main difference is that the drowning process is halted . . . It can cause severe psychological trauma, such as panic attacks, for years.’’ There was good reason why waterboarding was one of the war crimes for which Japanese officers were hanged after World War II.

Torture is unreliable, since people will often say anything — invent desperate fictions or diversions — to stop the pain or fear. That doesn’t mean waterboarding will never yield valuable information. Feeding a detainee into an industrial shredder, as Saddam Hussein’s torturers sometimes did, might yield valuable information too. But some techniques are forbidden not because they never work, not because they aren’t deserved, but because our very right to call ourselves decent human beings depends in part on our not doing them.

Like chemical and biological warfare, torture is something we refuse to engage in, despite its potential effectiveness, on the grounds that it is fundamentally immoral and uncivilized. Our repudiation of torture is absolute — the international Convention Against Torture, ratified by the United States in 1994, allows for “no exceptional circumstances whatsoever.’’ That unconditional repudiation is one of the lines that separates us from the barbaric jihadists with whom we are at war.

Ends don’t justify the means

[URL="http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/3639227/"]A Conservative's view on waterboarding[/URL]

 

[LordBrownTrout]

I was thinking 200 hydrogen bombs dropped in the ME would solve the problem. With the entire area turned to glass, it would be a new wonder of the world.

 

[hazlnut]

Clinton says torture doesnt work; nonsense, of course it works.

But I also think we could have gotten the information out of the captured terrorist and saved a lot of lives today.

What say the rest of you?

Nevermind our souls, our humanity, eh?

Let fear guide us, hate control us, and the dark rage flow through us.

Sith Lord much?

 

[easyt65]

Fewer Americans were killed under Clinton than Bush because unlike Bush, Clinton did not ignore warnings of a potential terrorist attack.

Clinton was too busy getting a BJ and sexually harassing women to notice any signs of a pending attack! The PLANNING for 9/11/01 happened on CLINTON'S watch. The terrorist pilots got their flight training on CLINTON'S watch. The investigating (afterwards) report described how they received training on how to FLY the jets but never completed the training regarding how to LAND the jets. Maybe if Clinton was using the right head at the time he would have considered that a little unusual.

AFTER 9/11/01 not another single terrorist attack on the US in the US was perpetrated. Obama, however....
Ft. Hood Terrorist Attack
Boston Marathon Bombing
Tn Recruiting Station Attack
Ca terrorist attack

Obama KNEW ahead of time that terrorists were going to attack, in Benghazi and in Boston - Obama KNEW when and by whom the attack in Benghazi was going to happen...Obama even KNEW WHO was going to perpetrate the Boston Bombing yet failed to stop either. Despite knowing exactly who had perpetrated the Boston Bombing, Obama plastered their faces on TV and asked citizens to help ID them, trying to prevent US citizens from realizing he DID know their identities and how he had f*ed up and failed to prevent the attack.

Clinton was blind because had his eyes closed, making his 'Ohhh' face while Monica was on her knees, and failed to prevent 9/11/01. Barry has kept his eyes closed to Islamic Extremism his entire 7 years in office, and yet Liberals - deathly allergic to any measure of accountability, claim ONLY BUSH is to blame.

I swear - there is NO CURE for THAT amount of partisanship and / or 'stupid'.

 

[pismoe]

Clinton says torture doesnt work; nonsense, of course it works.

But I also think we could have gotten the information out of the captured terrorist and saved a lot of lives today.

What say the rest of you?

-------------------------- MAYBE or I don't know !!

 

[Syriusly]

Clinton says torture doesnt work; nonsense, of course it works.

But I also think we could have gotten the information out of the captured terrorist and saved a lot of lives today.

What say the rest of you?

How would any of us know?

We don't know whether the captured terrorist had any information that would have been useful- nor do we know whether he provided information that was useful.

 

[JimBowie1958]

How would any of us know?

We don't know whether the captured terrorist had any information that would have been useful- nor do we know whether he provided information that was useful.

Suppose you are looking for your car keys (not that that ever happens to ME).

Do you look at the couch and say to yourself 'It's too much work to dig under that damned thing; it is probably not there anyway'?

If you have looked everywhere you expect your keys to be, and still havent found them, then you look where they shouldnt but might be. Like under the fucking couch.

When it comes to terrorism, we dont know what kind of data we dont know. We dont know what action we lack information on, and any squeezing of the terrorist lemon can produce lemonade, so why not give it a few twists to find out?

Why not get off our lazy squeemish asses and look under the fucking couch?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Fewer Americans were killed under Clinton than Bush because unlike Bush, Clinton did not ignore warnings of a potential terrorist attack.

Clinton was too busy getting a BJ and sexually harassing women to notice any signs of a pending attack! The PLANNING for 9/11/01 happened on CLINTON'S watch. The terrorist pilots got their flight training on CLINTON'S watch. The investigating (afterwards) report described how they received training on how to FLY the jets but never completed the training regarding how to LAND the jets. Maybe if Clinton was using the right head at the time he would have considered that a little unusual.

AFTER 9/11/01 not another single terrorist attack on the US in the US was perpetrated. Obama, however....
Ft. Hood Terrorist Attack
Boston Marathon Bombing
Tn Recruiting Station Attack
Ca terrorist attack

Obama KNEW ahead of time that terrorists were going to attack, in Benghazi and in Boston - Obama KNEW when and by whom the attack in Benghazi was going to happen...Obama even KNEW WHO was going to perpetrate the Boston Bombing yet failed to stop either. Despite knowing exactly who had perpetrated the Boston Bombing, Obama plastered their faces on TV and asked citizens to help ID them, trying to prevent US citizens from realizing he DID know their identities and how he had f*ed up and failed to prevent the attack.

Clinton was blind because had his eyes closed, making his 'Ohhh' face while Monica was on her knees, and failed to prevent 9/11/01. Barry has kept his eyes closed to Islamic Extremism his entire 7 years in office, and yet Liberals - deathly allergic to any measure of accountability, claim ONLY BUSH is to blame.

I swear - there is NO CURE for THAT amount of partisanship and / or 'stupid'.

Obama would rather risk white Western lives than hurt the hair of a little brown head.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Clinton says torture doesnt work; nonsense, of course it works.

But I also think we could have gotten the information out of the captured terrorist and saved a lot of lives today.

What say the rest of you?

-------------------------- MAYBE or I don't know !!

So why not take a look in case there is data that can save over 230 lives from death and ruin?

We do have the right to defend our own people, you do realize that, right?

 

[whitehall]

What does the word "torture " really mean? Liberals have expanded the concept of torture to include discomfort, embarrassment and fear but that's the freaking purpose of psychological warfare. Elite American Military personnel experience "waterboarding" in training so how can it be classified as torture? As usual, reality is upside down in the liberal mind.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Clinton says torture doesnt work; nonsense, of course it works.

But I also think we could have gotten the information out of the captured terrorist and saved a lot of lives today.

What say the rest of you?

""How Many Lives Would Have Been Saved Had we Tortured the Captured Paris Terrorist?""

We don't torture French prisoners. Nor Belgian ones, either.