How Many Lives Would Have Been Saved Had we Tortured the Captured Paris Terrorist?

[Searcher44]

Clinton says torture doesnt work; nonsense, of course it works.

But I also think we could have gotten the information out of the captured terrorist and saved a lot of lives today.

What say the rest of you?

I think I'd quote this guy: "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

Bad comparison; Jesus has no need for torture since He is omniscient.

I don't want to get all theological on you...but I will. Til he was crucified and resurrected he walked the Earth as a mortal, no omnipotence or omnipresence, or omniscience, at least that's The Story according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but pffft...who knows? I'm sure of two things, he was definitely omnivorous, and if I was him, and had those powers, I would have figured out a more reader-friendly less gruesome ending to That Story.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Torture doesn't work... Has been said by experts...

Usually the information is false.

Modern interrogation techniques from properly trained professionals does work and leads to loads of valuable information.

But to anyone who knows about Cell Terrorist operations the guys performing the attack know nothing about other attacks... There is a manual for this shit...

Torture only emboldens the radicals and allows them to quite rightly state that you are just animals.. It also weakens your allies co-operation... Do you think if you get a name for torture that any European country can handover there suspects to you? It is against the law....

Torture is just what idiots say when they want to look tough but evidence proves them to be totally wrong...

Torture has worked for centuries, dude, and I know you peaceniks think that you know better, but Cortez successfully tortured Aztecs for information and some of the local allies of theirs. It really helped them defeat the Aztecs. Francisco Franco and Sir Francis Wallsingham also used torture successfully. Wallsingham uncovered numerous plots against the English government by torturing Catholic priests and their secret supporters.

Sorry, Cowboy, but history plainly and clearly refutes your naive assertion.

You're thinking of "enhanced" conversion. Not the same.

They were sloppier and more crude and less effective than they could have been using methods known of today. Methinks that they might also have reduced the lingering unrest by being able to return loved ones to their families, and the 'harshly interrogated' acting as a brake on further unrest.The ghosts of those tortured to death inflamed much resentment and anger.

 

[GWV5903]

Zero.
Torture, aside from any ethical considerations, does not work. And we've known that for literally centuries.

Ethics considered? What ethics were considered in Brussels by the suicide bombers? Oh that's right none...

Islamic Terrorism is a disease, a cancer with no respect to anyone or anything. Waterboarding is more a mental than physical pain and under the circumstances acceptable to gain information. To suggest it doesn't work is stupid...

There has been credible information obtained through Enhanced Interrogation and it should have been used here as well...

 

[JimBowie1958]

I don't want to get all theological on you...but I will. Til he was crucified and resurrected he walked the Earth as a mortal, no omnipotence or omnipresence, or omniscience, at least that's The Story according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but pffft...who knows?

BAh maybe in heretical Protestant Bibles, lol. Seriously, the New Testament has numerous stories of JEsus know ing things He could not have normally known and was able to summon angels and dead prophets and finally to Resurrect Himself from the grave.

I'm sure of two things, he was definitely omnivorous, ...

Yes, I am sure He ate fish, bread, veggies, etc. Definitely omnivorous.

and if I was him, and had those powers, I would have figured out a more reader-friendly less gruesome ending to That Story.

You suppose that there was such. Omniscience only pertains to those things possible by analysis and calculation, while omniscience only pertains to those things limited by limitations on power available.

Some things are not solvable mysteries, nor are they difficult due to enormous effort. They simply cannot be done, like drawing a 4 sided triangle or making a stone so large that He couldnt move it, etc.

 

[frigidweirdo]

And took them how long? And Osama was known to the authorities where he was.

The reality is you're dealing with people who have no idea about other cells, they're getting smart, they've learned that all attacks must be done without information. They give some money to these guys, who is this person? No one knows, all done over the internet. Then they let them carry it out on their own, nothing gets out, the people above don't know it's coming.

And..?????????

And.... I'd expect an answer from you that is more than 3 letters.

I don't care what you expect. I am not getting into a free for all with you. That proves nothing. I can give my opinion with one word if that is all it takes. TYVM

Yes you can. But one would assume that you come on here because you actually want to talk about things, learn from people, try and understand the issues as they stand, rather than come on here and demand everyone listen to you and then post responses that simply don't add to any debate at all.

I mean, seriously here, if you're here to just say "this is my opinion and you have to accept it and nothing else" then I just won't bother with you. I don't come on here to fuck around.

You are you, and I am myself. I post as I choose, and you shall not change that for me. You think you have to post 4 paragraphs (which NO ONE reads). I don't.
Find someone else to fight with. It won't be me.
I gave my opinion on torture. You know very well what I think. So get off my ass...find someone else. Understand that??? /unwatch and going where someone in here is halfway interesting, and doesn't bore me to tears.

Soundbite politics for those who can't read a paragraph.

I'm glad I'm not a stupid as that. I'm glad I can read, and I can read enough to understand the issues.

Welcome to modern democracy where most people can't even be bothered to read enough to find out what's going on. They just rely on what they're told by other people and what they decide to make up in their brain.

You're right, I should get off your ass, you're too fucking stupid for me to deal with, if you can't even read a few paragraphs to try and understand an issue.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Attacks are far more likely to succeed when nobody knows anything, right?

Which would mean that we need to do all we can to know, right?

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

You have a terrorist who just killed 30 people, sitting there in a chair, you ask him where he lives and who he lives with, he doesnt answer you. Awww well, lets just forget that. not important information.

You ask him who he lives with. He lives with the other people who carried out this attack. He lives in some flat somewhere. You go, you find evidence of his attack.

What you don't find is evidence of any attack that will happen in 4 months time. because they don't have any evidence that will lead to anyone who is in another cell. Because they've made it so water tight that different cells don't have any contact with each other, they might not even have the same handlers, if they do they won't know who that person is.

So, what does torture get you? It tells you there was an attack. But you knew that already.

Why do you think they've had two attacks in 4 months? Because they can't deal with the manner in which these people are operating.

"They" would include CIA, MI5, Mossad, Belgium and French secret services along with others in Europe, especially Germany.

This happens and they didn't know it was happening. For a reason. Because these guys are operating intelligently. The guys who are controlling them won't be found.

How can you possibly know that?? people fuck up and make mistakes. thats how cases are solved. ever hear the phrase, "turning over every stone" ? theyre looking for a mistake by these terrorists, but the sooner you get the information the better

Yeah, people do fuck up. But then again you have loads of western security agencies acting in secret on this.

And yet they don't get them.

Imagine they turned up at your place, believed you were a suspect, would you accept torture because they believe you to be guilty?

In order to protect what the west stands for, you have to actually stand for it.

Torture, rounding people up and locking them in camps with no due process, all of this is what we're fighting AGAINST and you're telling me we should just turn into ISIS.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Zero.
Torture, aside from any ethical considerations, does not work. And we've known that for literally centuries.

Ethics considered? What ethics were considered in Brussels by the suicide bombers? Oh that's right none...

Islamic Terrorism is a disease, a cancer with no respect to anyone or anything. Waterboarding is more a mental than physical pain and under the circumstances acceptable to gain information. To suggest it doesn't work is stupid...

There has been credible information obtained through Enhanced Interrogation and it should have been used here as well...

And if you get rid of your ethics, then you are a disease, a cancer.

Do you really want to be like them?

 

[GWV5903]

Zero.
Torture, aside from any ethical considerations, does not work. And we've known that for literally centuries.

Ethics considered? What ethics were considered in Brussels by the suicide bombers? Oh that's right none...

Islamic Terrorism is a disease, a cancer with no respect to anyone or anything. Waterboarding is more a mental than physical pain and under the circumstances acceptable to gain information. To suggest it doesn't work is stupid...

There has been credible information obtained through Enhanced Interrogation and it should have been used here as well...

And if you get rid of your ethics, then you are a disease, a cancer.

Do you really want to be like them?

The actions of war can be considered unethical, do we lay down our defenses?

 

[Yarddog]

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

But you dont know that they dont know anything. That is why you torture them, to find out if they have any actionable intel. And it really doesnt take a lot; one thread can unravel yards of whole cloth

Which would mean that we need to do all we can to know, right?

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

You have a terrorist who just killed 30 people, sitting there in a chair, you ask him where he lives and who he lives with, he doesnt answer you. Awww well, lets just forget that. not important information.

You ask him who he lives with. He lives with the other people who carried out this attack. He lives in some flat somewhere. You go, you find evidence of his attack.

What you don't find is evidence of any attack that will happen in 4 months time. because they don't have any evidence that will lead to anyone who is in another cell. Because they've made it so water tight that different cells don't have any contact with each other, they might not even have the same handlers, if they do they won't know who that person is.

So, what does torture get you? It tells you there was an attack. But you knew that already.

Why do you think they've had two attacks in 4 months? Because they can't deal with the manner in which these people are operating.

"They" would include CIA, MI5, Mossad, Belgium and French secret services along with others in Europe, especially Germany.

This happens and they didn't know it was happening. For a reason. Because these guys are operating intelligently. The guys who are controlling them won't be found.

How can you possibly know that?? people fuck up and make mistakes. thats how cases are solved. ever hear the phrase, "turning over every stone" ? theyre looking for a mistake by these terrorists, but the sooner you get the information the better

Yeah, people do fuck up. But then again you have loads of western security agencies acting in secret on this.

And yet they don't get them.

Imagine they turned up at your place, believed you were a suspect, would you accept torture because they believe you to be guilty?

In order to protect what the west stands for, you have to actually stand for it.

Torture, rounding people up and locking them in camps with no due process, all of this is what we're fighting AGAINST and you're telling me we should just turn into ISIS.

Theres a difference between a suspect and a terrorist they catch in the act. If they catch a Terrorist in the act, you damn well know he knows something and you also know hes guilty as hell AND a piece of shit. Torturing a "suspect" I may agree with you, because that is a completely different thing.

 

[my2¢]

We have nothing to gain and everything to lose by becoming more like our enemies.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

But you dont know that they dont know anything. That is why you torture them, to find out if they have any actionable intel. And it really doesnt take a lot; one thread can unravel yards of whole cloth

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

You have a terrorist who just killed 30 people, sitting there in a chair, you ask him where he lives and who he lives with, he doesnt answer you. Awww well, lets just forget that. not important information.

You ask him who he lives with. He lives with the other people who carried out this attack. He lives in some flat somewhere. You go, you find evidence of his attack.

What you don't find is evidence of any attack that will happen in 4 months time. because they don't have any evidence that will lead to anyone who is in another cell. Because they've made it so water tight that different cells don't have any contact with each other, they might not even have the same handlers, if they do they won't know who that person is.

So, what does torture get you? It tells you there was an attack. But you knew that already.

Why do you think they've had two attacks in 4 months? Because they can't deal with the manner in which these people are operating.

"They" would include CIA, MI5, Mossad, Belgium and French secret services along with others in Europe, especially Germany.

This happens and they didn't know it was happening. For a reason. Because these guys are operating intelligently. The guys who are controlling them won't be found.

How can you possibly know that?? people fuck up and make mistakes. thats how cases are solved. ever hear the phrase, "turning over every stone" ? theyre looking for a mistake by these terrorists, but the sooner you get the information the better

Yeah, people do fuck up. But then again you have loads of western security agencies acting in secret on this.

And yet they don't get them.

Imagine they turned up at your place, believed you were a suspect, would you accept torture because they believe you to be guilty?

In order to protect what the west stands for, you have to actually stand for it.

Torture, rounding people up and locking them in camps with no due process, all of this is what we're fighting AGAINST and you're telling me we should just turn into ISIS.

Theres a difference between a suspect and a terrorist they catch in the act. If they catch a Terrorist in the act, you damn well know he knows something and you also know hes guilty as hell AND a piece of shit. Torturing a "suspect" I may agree with you, because that is a completely different thing.

But then we still become them. You still want to become them.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Zero.
Torture, aside from any ethical considerations, does not work. And we've known that for literally centuries.

Ethics considered? What ethics were considered in Brussels by the suicide bombers? Oh that's right none...

Islamic Terrorism is a disease, a cancer with no respect to anyone or anything. Waterboarding is more a mental than physical pain and under the circumstances acceptable to gain information. To suggest it doesn't work is stupid...

There has been credible information obtained through Enhanced Interrogation and it should have been used here as well...

And if you get rid of your ethics, then you are a disease, a cancer.

Do you really want to be like them?

The actions of war can be considered unethical, do we lay down our defenses?

No, we make decide on our ethics and we stick to them.

Our ethics include not dropping atomic bombs, not killing people unnecessarily, not torturing people, not doing many things. These aren't difficult to define, we've done it many time.

 

[X. Li]

Zero.
Torture, aside from any ethical considerations, does not work. And we've known that for literally centuries.

Ethics considered? What ethics were considered in Brussels by the suicide bombers? Oh that's right none...

Islamic Terrorism is a disease, a cancer with no respect to anyone or anything. Waterboarding is more a mental than physical pain and under the circumstances acceptable to gain information. To suggest it doesn't work is stupid...

There has been credible information obtained through Enhanced Interrogation and it should have been used here as well...

And if you get rid of your ethics, then you are a disease, a cancer.

Do you really want to be like them?

The actions of war can be considered unethical, do we lay down our defenses?

No, we make decide on our ethics and we stick to them.

Our ethics include not dropping atomic bombs, not killing people unnecessarily, not torturing people, not doing many things. These aren't difficult to define, we've done it many time.

A question: do you believe that the Iraq war is compatible with the "ethics"? Why?

 

[Yarddog]

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

But you dont know that they dont know anything. That is why you torture them, to find out if they have any actionable intel. And it really doesnt take a lot; one thread can unravel yards of whole cloth

You have a terrorist who just killed 30 people, sitting there in a chair, you ask him where he lives and who he lives with, he doesnt answer you. Awww well, lets just forget that. not important information.

You ask him who he lives with. He lives with the other people who carried out this attack. He lives in some flat somewhere. You go, you find evidence of his attack.

What you don't find is evidence of any attack that will happen in 4 months time. because they don't have any evidence that will lead to anyone who is in another cell. Because they've made it so water tight that different cells don't have any contact with each other, they might not even have the same handlers, if they do they won't know who that person is.

So, what does torture get you? It tells you there was an attack. But you knew that already.

Why do you think they've had two attacks in 4 months? Because they can't deal with the manner in which these people are operating.

"They" would include CIA, MI5, Mossad, Belgium and French secret services along with others in Europe, especially Germany.

This happens and they didn't know it was happening. For a reason. Because these guys are operating intelligently. The guys who are controlling them won't be found.

How can you possibly know that?? people fuck up and make mistakes. thats how cases are solved. ever hear the phrase, "turning over every stone" ? theyre looking for a mistake by these terrorists, but the sooner you get the information the better

Yeah, people do fuck up. But then again you have loads of western security agencies acting in secret on this.

And yet they don't get them.

Imagine they turned up at your place, believed you were a suspect, would you accept torture because they believe you to be guilty?

In order to protect what the west stands for, you have to actually stand for it.

Torture, rounding people up and locking them in camps with no due process, all of this is what we're fighting AGAINST and you're telling me we should just turn into ISIS.

Theres a difference between a suspect and a terrorist they catch in the act. If they catch a Terrorist in the act, you damn well know he knows something and you also know hes guilty as hell AND a piece of shit. Torturing a "suspect" I may agree with you, because that is a completely different thing.

But then we still become them. You still want to become them.

"we become them" I think thats just a mindless mantra. What differentiates THEM from US is motivation and objective. THEY are not killing and maiming indiscriminatley for the purpose of obtainiing information that would save lives. They are killing and maiming for the pure joy it gives them.

If we were to water board one person who was obviously with holding information that could help take down a cell, the motivation is not to hurt that person, but the motivation is to save lives. WE and Them are like night and day no matter how you try to spin it. And you know it

 

[Searcher44]

Waterboarding worked so well and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's story was so fascinating they wanted to hear it 183 times. Can't of any other reason they waterboarded him 183 times, can you?

I'm leaning towards a moral judgement that the so-called "civilized" westerners who participated in any torture sessions of anybody are morally more culpable than any of their victims, especially the medical personnel, whatever the uncharged, unconvicted victims were accused of.

• The purpose of the waterboarding appears to have been to bring Mohammed as close as possible to death without actually killing him. As one C.I.A. medical officer who presided over the torture wrote, “In the new technique we are basically doing a series of near drownings.”
• Mohammed was spirited to secret C.I.A. prisons in Afghanistan and Poland, where his interrogators went straight to brutality: slamming him against a wall (a practice known as “walling”), depriving him of sleep (at one point for more than a week), forcing him to stand or crouch in painful positions, stripping him during questioning, and engaging in a bizarre practice called “rectal rehydration.”
  
• .....so much water was forced into Mohammed that his “abdomen was somewhat distended and he expressed water when the abdomen was pressed,”... One of the medical officers present said that, even though Mohammed was vomiting during the sessions, his “gastric contents” had become so diluted that he was “not concerned about regurgitated gastric acid damaging KSM’s esophagus.” Instead, the medical officer said, he was worried that Mohammed had been filled with so much water that there was a danger that the electrolytes in his blood had become dangerously diluted; the (medical) officer requested that C.I.A. interrogators use salted water during the waterboarding sessions.
  
• The Senate report, which drew almost entirely on the C.I.A.’s internal communications, makes a convincing case that while the interrogation of Mohammed produced some valuable information, the interrogators never got what they wanted. No information provided by Mohammed led directly to the capture of a terrorist or the disruption of a terrorist plot.
  
• “Overall view seems to be” that waterboarding “is not working in gaining KSM[’s] compliance,” one officer wrote....Duh....after 183 attempts they finally figured that out....
  
• “Against KSM it has proven ineffective,” the deputy chief of the C.I.A. interrogation program wrote. “The potential for physical harm is far greater with the waterboard than with the other techniques, bringing into question the issue of risk vs. gain.”
  
• “We seem to have lost ground,” the deputy chief continued, writing that the practice “may poison the well.”
  
• An official C.I.A. assessment of the interrogations concluded that Mohammed managed to conceal his most valuable information, despite being tortured. (The report was titled “Precious Truths, Surrounded by a Bodyguard of Lies.”)

NEWS DESK
DECEMBER 31, 2014
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the C.I.A.
BY DEXTER FILKINS
Undated photo of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.CREDITPHOTOGRAPH: AP
“I M W KSM.”

So went the electrifying text message received by a C.I.A. operative in Islamabad, Pakistan, in February of 2003, sent by a mysterious man known as Asset X. The note confirmed what Asset X, whose real identity is an official secret, had been telling his C.I.A. handlers for months: that he could lead them to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a senior Al Qaeda leader and the suspected mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. K.S.M., as he later came to be known in the West, was still at large, and the C.I.A. wanted him almost as badly as they wanted Osama bin Laden.

Within hours of the operative receiving the text message, C.I.A. and Pakistani intelligence officers followed Asset X’s lead, swooped into the compound where Mohammed was living, and captured him. The takedown of Mohammed had almost fallen apart several times, thanks to C.I.A. mismanagement of Asset X. Just as remarkable is how his capture was later used to justify the most brutal aspects of the C.I.A.’s special interrogation program that was put in place after the 9/11 attacks.


Soon after his capture in Rawalpindi, on March 1, 2003, Mohammed was spirited to secret C.I.A. prisons in Afghanistan and Poland, where his interrogators went straight to brutality: slamming him against a wall (a practice known as “walling”), depriving him of sleep (at one point for more than a week), forcing him to stand or crouch in painful positions, stripping him during questioning, and engaging in a bizarre practice called “rectal rehydration.” (According to a C.I.A. document, it was supposed to help “clear a person’s head.”) In Poland, the interrogators subjected Mohammed to waterboarding, a form of torture that makes a person believe he is drowning, at least a hundred and eighty-three times.

• The details of Mohammed’s interrogation, described in the report issued earlier this month by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, make for grim, even sickening reading. During Mohammed’s waterboarding sessions, C.I.A. officers reported that he “yelled and twisted,” “seemed to lose control,” and became “somewhat frantic.” The purpose of the waterboarding appears to have been to bring Mohammed as close as possible to death without actually killing him. As one C.I.A. medical officer who presided over the torture wrote, “In the new technique we are basically doing a series of near drownings.”

On March 12, 2003, during a waterboarding session, so much water was forced into Mohammed that his “abdomen was somewhat distended and he expressed water when the abdomen was pressed,” the Senate report says, quoting from a C.I.A. cable. One of the medical officers present said that, even though Mohammed was vomiting during the sessions, his “gastric contents” had become so diluted that he was “not concerned about regurgitated gastric acid damaging KSM’s esophagus.” Instead, the medical officer said, he was worried that Mohammed had been filled with so much water that there was a danger that the electrolytes in his blood had become dangerously diluted; the officer requested that C.I.A. interrogators use salted water during the waterboarding sessions.

The Senate report, which drew almost entirely on the C.I.A.’s internal communications, makes a convincing case that while the interrogation of Mohammed produced some valuable information, the interrogators never got what they wanted. No information provided by Mohammed led directly to the capture of a terrorist or the disruption of a terrorist plot.

Here are some quotations from C.I.A. records filed during Mohammed’s interrogation:

“Overall view seems to be” that waterboarding “is not working in gaining KSM[’s] compliance,” one officer wrote.

“Against KSM it has proven ineffective,” the deputy chief of the C.I.A. interrogation program wrote. “The potential for physical harm is far greater with the waterboard than with the other techniques, bringing into question the issue of risk vs. gain.”

“We seem to have lost ground,” the deputy chief continued, writing that the practice “may poison the well.”

An official C.I.A. assessment of the interrogations concluded that Mohammed managed to conceal his most valuable information, despite being tortured. (The report was titled “Precious Truths, Surrounded by a Bodyguard of Lies.”) Another report, written after the waterboarding sessions had ended, said that interrogators “remain[ed] highly suspicious that KSM is withholding, exaggerating, misdirecting, or outright fabricating information” on weapons of mass destruction. “Pretend cooperation,’’ another report said. “May never be forthcoming or honest,” said another.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Zero.
Torture, aside from any ethical considerations, does not work. And we've known that for literally centuries.

Ethics considered? What ethics were considered in Brussels by the suicide bombers? Oh that's right none...

Islamic Terrorism is a disease, a cancer with no respect to anyone or anything. Waterboarding is more a mental than physical pain and under the circumstances acceptable to gain information. To suggest it doesn't work is stupid...

There has been credible information obtained through Enhanced Interrogation and it should have been used here as well...

And if you get rid of your ethics, then you are a disease, a cancer.

Do you really want to be like them?

The actions of war can be considered unethical, do we lay down our defenses?

No, we make decide on our ethics and we stick to them.

Our ethics include not dropping atomic bombs, not killing people unnecessarily, not torturing people, not doing many things. These aren't difficult to define, we've done it many time.

A question: do you believe that the Iraq war is compatible with the "ethics"? Why?

No.

It was started with a lie. It wasn't necessary. It was done for people's pockets and not for ethical reasons.

 

[GWV5903]

Our ethics include not dropping atomic bombs, not killing people unnecessarily, not torturing people, not doing many things. These aren't difficult to define, we've done it many time.

In a perfect world you're correct, problem is we're human, far from perfect.

Our world is far from perfect and mistakes occur, innocent casualties take place with the best intentions.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

But you dont know that they dont know anything. That is why you torture them, to find out if they have any actionable intel. And it really doesnt take a lot; one thread can unravel yards of whole cloth

You ask him who he lives with. He lives with the other people who carried out this attack. He lives in some flat somewhere. You go, you find evidence of his attack.

What you don't find is evidence of any attack that will happen in 4 months time. because they don't have any evidence that will lead to anyone who is in another cell. Because they've made it so water tight that different cells don't have any contact with each other, they might not even have the same handlers, if they do they won't know who that person is.

So, what does torture get you? It tells you there was an attack. But you knew that already.

Why do you think they've had two attacks in 4 months? Because they can't deal with the manner in which these people are operating.

"They" would include CIA, MI5, Mossad, Belgium and French secret services along with others in Europe, especially Germany.

This happens and they didn't know it was happening. For a reason. Because these guys are operating intelligently. The guys who are controlling them won't be found.

How can you possibly know that?? people fuck up and make mistakes. thats how cases are solved. ever hear the phrase, "turning over every stone" ? theyre looking for a mistake by these terrorists, but the sooner you get the information the better

Yeah, people do fuck up. But then again you have loads of western security agencies acting in secret on this.

And yet they don't get them.

Imagine they turned up at your place, believed you were a suspect, would you accept torture because they believe you to be guilty?

In order to protect what the west stands for, you have to actually stand for it.

Torture, rounding people up and locking them in camps with no due process, all of this is what we're fighting AGAINST and you're telling me we should just turn into ISIS.

Theres a difference between a suspect and a terrorist they catch in the act. If they catch a Terrorist in the act, you damn well know he knows something and you also know hes guilty as hell AND a piece of shit. Torturing a "suspect" I may agree with you, because that is a completely different thing.

But then we still become them. You still want to become them.

"we become them" I think thats just a mindless mantra. What differentiates THEM from US is motivation and objective. THEY are not killing and maiming indiscriminatley for the purpose of obtainiing information that would save lives. They are killing and maiming for the pure joy it gives them.

If we were to water board one person who was obviously with holding information that could help take down a cell, the motivation is not to hurt that person, but the motivation is to save lives. WE and Them are like night and day no matter how you try to spin it. And you know it

Mindless mantra? No it isn't. It's what I believe in compared to what others believe in.

What makes the US different from ISIS?

They are not killing for joy, they are killing for their religion, or better said, their version of their religion. They believe they're right.

The US goes around killing for its religion too, not Christianity, but oil. Some of the soldiers who went to Iraq went and killed because they enjoyed it. I'm sure some of the Islamic Extremists enjoy it too.

On both sides people signed up to fight, you don't sign up to fight if you don't want to fight. There's no difference between those who signed up to the US armed forces after 9/11 than those who signed up to fight for Islamic Extremists in the same period.

You might do waterboarding because you think it will save lives.
You might take away freedom of speech because you think it will save lives.
You might take away all guns from society because you think it will save lives.

But notice how those people who want to take away people's freedom, do torture and all that "to save lives" don't want to get rid of guns which kill more people than the terrorists do?

There are people who are ethical, and people who use ethics as a reason to win their argument when it suits them. Those who demand to use waterboarding are not making a good case for it at all.

 

[Manchester]

Everyone who knows knows that torture doesn't work. This isn't because you don't get the truth but because you get whatever the tortured parties think the torturer wants to hear and so the information is so muddied as to render it useless.

That and it's evil of course.

 

[GWV5903]

No.

It was started with a lie. It wasn't necessary. It was done for people's pockets and not for ethical reasons.

Saddam Hussein was the Moral Authority in Iraq, he spent endless hours teaching the masses how to be a good Iraqi...