How Many Lives Would Have Been Saved Had we Tortured the Captured Paris Terrorist?

[Kat]

I tend to agree. One thing for sure, we would have a LOT more info than we do.

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Any bit of information is crucial no matter how small it seems. Its all collected and analized. Thats how they got Osama

And took them how long? And Osama was known to the authorities where he was.

The reality is you're dealing with people who have no idea about other cells, they're getting smart, they've learned that all attacks must be done without information. They give some money to these guys, who is this person? No one knows, all done over the internet. Then they let them carry it out on their own, nothing gets out, the people above don't know it's coming.

And..?????????

 

[frigidweirdo]

I tend to agree. One thing for sure, we would have a LOT more info than we do.

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Now you may be correct there. I don't know...

Attacks are far more likely to succeed when nobody knows anything, right?

Which would mean that we need to do all we can to know, right?

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

 

[Yarddog]

I tend to agree. One thing for sure, we would have a LOT more info than we do.

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Any bit of information is crucial no matter how small it seems. Its all collected and analized. Thats how they got Osama

And took them how long? And Osama was known to the authorities where he was.

The reality is you're dealing with people who have no idea about other cells, they're getting smart, they've learned that all attacks must be done without information. They give some money to these guys, who is this person? No one knows, all done over the internet. Then they let them carry it out on their own, nothing gets out, the people above don't know it's coming.

By your logic then , authorities shouldn't even bother questioning them, I mean, "their smart"

 

[Kat]

I tend to agree. One thing for sure, we would have a LOT more info than we do.

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Now you may be correct there. I don't know...

Attacks are far more likely to succeed when nobody knows anything, right?

Which would mean that we need to do all we can to know, right?

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

Point being it is more important to find out if they DO know something. You can't just sit around and say ''oh they probably don't know".

 

[Faun]

Depends on how much he valued his life versus how much he valued 70 virgins...

Torture is not as simple as most people think it is. You have to involve more than just a fear of death. You have to make the target comfortable, and then strip them of their comfort for bad behavior, and have a nice friendly person who sees to the targets health and well being, who gives the target a chance to save themselves pain and discomfort by trading some information, and he engages the target with talk to see if the target has any other personal fears, hopes, or desires and then offers hope that these things can be attained after his release.

The torturers record everything that is said, and they use pain to set the mindset, dig for information, then to erase what the target said by replacing those memories with pain. The information is verified while the target is in captivity and rest. If he has lied, he loses comfort and dignity. If his information checks out, he is rewarded. in the next session, the same question are asked and then compared to the previous answers, rinse and repeat.

This process could take a long time, but waterboarding as the torture method can yield quick results as it is extremely unpleasant, making a person feel as though they are drowning.

As the uncooperative target loses comforts, he can be reduced to having no bed, a cold wet cell with his food being served in the same unwashed dish time after time. His food can be fowled and his water filthy. He can face other things that he personally finds frightening, such as close quarters if he is claustrophobic, spiders put in if he fears them also, etc. Once the target breaks down and pleads for better accommodations, he is an empty vessel.

Yes, it is cruel, but it can save a great many lives, and the target can walk away with all his fingers and toes intact.

That's a sadism fantasy. Doesn't work.

How do YOU know?

Been down this road before, that's how. Especially in the Bush years.
It's been well known literally for centuries that torture doesn't work. Since at least the witch burnings where primitively repressed Euro males got their jollies by squeezing women's body parts until they burst, so that they would confess to being "witches". It's pure sadism, and it's sick.

But aside from that the purely practical side is that it's ineffective anyway. Always has been.

pppffftttt we are not talking about every day life and living here. We are talking about people whose only goal is to kill us. When you volunteer to have you head chopped off you may have some credence with me. Until thien, I will listen to ones that have already been involved.

Many of whom are prepared to be suicide bombers. What do you think they have to lose?

 

[Yarddog]

I tend to agree. One thing for sure, we would have a LOT more info than we do.

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Now you may be correct there. I don't know...

Attacks are far more likely to succeed when nobody knows anything, right?

Which would mean that we need to do all we can to know, right?

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

You have a terrorist who just killed 30 people, sitting there in a chair, you ask him where he lives and who he lives with, he doesnt answer you. Awww well, lets just forget that. not important information.

 

[Kat]

Torture is not as simple as most people think it is. You have to involve more than just a fear of death. You have to make the target comfortable, and then strip them of their comfort for bad behavior, and have a nice friendly person who sees to the targets health and well being, who gives the target a chance to save themselves pain and discomfort by trading some information, and he engages the target with talk to see if the target has any other personal fears, hopes, or desires and then offers hope that these things can be attained after his release.

The torturers record everything that is said, and they use pain to set the mindset, dig for information, then to erase what the target said by replacing those memories with pain. The information is verified while the target is in captivity and rest. If he has lied, he loses comfort and dignity. If his information checks out, he is rewarded. in the next session, the same question are asked and then compared to the previous answers, rinse and repeat.

This process could take a long time, but waterboarding as the torture method can yield quick results as it is extremely unpleasant, making a person feel as though they are drowning.

As the uncooperative target loses comforts, he can be reduced to having no bed, a cold wet cell with his food being served in the same unwashed dish time after time. His food can be fowled and his water filthy. He can face other things that he personally finds frightening, such as close quarters if he is claustrophobic, spiders put in if he fears them also, etc. Once the target breaks down and pleads for better accommodations, he is an empty vessel.

Yes, it is cruel, but it can save a great many lives, and the target can walk away with all his fingers and toes intact.

That's a sadism fantasy. Doesn't work.

How do YOU know?

Been down this road before, that's how. Especially in the Bush years.
It's been well known literally for centuries that torture doesn't work. Since at least the witch burnings where primitively repressed Euro males got their jollies by squeezing women's body parts until they burst, so that they would confess to being "witches". It's pure sadism, and it's sick.

But aside from that the purely practical side is that it's ineffective anyway. Always has been.

pppffftttt we are not talking about every day life and living here. We are talking about people whose only goal is to kill us. When you volunteer to have you head chopped off you may have some credence with me. Until thien, I will listen to ones that have already been involved.

Many of whom are prepared to be suicide bombers. What do you think they have to lose?

Nothing. But my guess is torture is a lot slower.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I tend to agree. One thing for sure, we would have a LOT more info than we do.

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Any bit of information is crucial no matter how small it seems. Its all collected and analized. Thats how they got Osama

And took them how long? And Osama was known to the authorities where he was.

The reality is you're dealing with people who have no idea about other cells, they're getting smart, they've learned that all attacks must be done without information. They give some money to these guys, who is this person? No one knows, all done over the internet. Then they let them carry it out on their own, nothing gets out, the people above don't know it's coming.

And..?????????

And.... I'd expect an answer from you that is more than 3 letters.

 

[CowboyTed]

Torture doesn't work... Has been said by experts...

Usually the information is false.

Modern interrogation techniques from properly trained professionals does work and leads to loads of valuable information.

But to anyone who knows about Cell Terrorist operations the guys performing the attack know nothing about other attacks... There is a manual for this shit...

Torture only emboldens the radicals and allows them to quite rightly state that you are just animals.. It also weakens your allies co-operation... Do you think if you get a name for torture that any European country can handover there suspects to you? It is against the law....

Torture is just what idiots say when they want to look tough but evidence proves them to be totally wrong...

 

[Kat]

Torture doesn't work... Has been said by experts...

Usually the information is false.

Modern interrogation techniques from properly trained professionals does work and leads to loads of valuable information.

But to anyone who knows about Cell Terrorist operations the guys performing the attack know nothing about other attacks... There is a manual for this shit...

Torture only emboldens the radicals and allows them to quite rightly state that you are just animals.. It also weakens your allies co-operation... Do you think if you get a name for torture that any European country can handover there suspects to you? It is against the law....

Torture is just what idiots say when they want to look tough but evidence proves them to be totally wrong...

And plenty would disagree with you. Would you care if anyone in ISIS was tortured?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

But you dont know that they dont know anything. That is why you torture them, to find out if they have any actionable intel. And it really doesnt take a lot; one thread can unravel yards of whole cloth

 

[frigidweirdo]

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Now you may be correct there. I don't know...

Attacks are far more likely to succeed when nobody knows anything, right?

Which would mean that we need to do all we can to know, right?

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

You have a terrorist who just killed 30 people, sitting there in a chair, you ask him where he lives and who he lives with, he doesnt answer you. Awww well, lets just forget that. not important information.

You ask him who he lives with. He lives with the other people who carried out this attack. He lives in some flat somewhere. You go, you find evidence of his attack.

What you don't find is evidence of any attack that will happen in 4 months time. because they don't have any evidence that will lead to anyone who is in another cell. Because they've made it so water tight that different cells don't have any contact with each other, they might not even have the same handlers, if they do they won't know who that person is.

So, what does torture get you? It tells you there was an attack. But you knew that already.

Why do you think they've had two attacks in 4 months? Because they can't deal with the manner in which these people are operating.

"They" would include CIA, MI5, Mossad, Belgium and French secret services along with others in Europe, especially Germany.

This happens and they didn't know it was happening. For a reason. Because these guys are operating intelligently. The guys who are controlling them won't be found.

 

[Kat]

I tend to agree. One thing for sure, we would have a LOT more info than we do.

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Any bit of information is crucial no matter how small it seems. Its all collected and analized. Thats how they got Osama

And took them how long? And Osama was known to the authorities where he was.

The reality is you're dealing with people who have no idea about other cells, they're getting smart, they've learned that all attacks must be done without information. They give some money to these guys, who is this person? No one knows, all done over the internet. Then they let them carry it out on their own, nothing gets out, the people above don't know it's coming.

And..?????????

And.... I'd expect an answer from you that is more than 3 letters.

I don't care what you expect. I am not getting into a free for all with you. That proves nothing. I can give my opinion with one word if that is all it takes. TYVM

 

[Yarddog]

I tend to agree. One thing for sure, we would have a LOT more info than we do.

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Any bit of information is crucial no matter how small it seems. Its all collected and analized. Thats how they got Osama

And took them how long? And Osama was known to the authorities where he was.

The reality is you're dealing with people who have no idea about other cells, they're getting smart, they've learned that all attacks must be done without information. They give some money to these guys, who is this person? No one knows, all done over the internet. Then they let them carry it out on their own, nothing gets out, the people above don't know it's coming.

And..?????????

And.... I'd expect an answer from you that is more than 3 letters.

AUUUUUU give torture a try..... bet she gives you more than three letters then!

 

[Kat]

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Any bit of information is crucial no matter how small it seems. Its all collected and analized. Thats how they got Osama

And took them how long? And Osama was known to the authorities where he was.

The reality is you're dealing with people who have no idea about other cells, they're getting smart, they've learned that all attacks must be done without information. They give some money to these guys, who is this person? No one knows, all done over the internet. Then they let them carry it out on their own, nothing gets out, the people above don't know it's coming.

And..?????????

And.... I'd expect an answer from you that is more than 3 letters.

AUUUUUU give torture a try..... bet she gives you more than three letters then!

I did. See my reply.

 

[frigidweirdo]

These guys work in cells, this is how they go undetected, they make sure no one knows about what they're doing other than a very small amount of people. They probably don't even know who their handlers are.

Any bit of information is crucial no matter how small it seems. Its all collected and analized. Thats how they got Osama

And took them how long? And Osama was known to the authorities where he was.

The reality is you're dealing with people who have no idea about other cells, they're getting smart, they've learned that all attacks must be done without information. They give some money to these guys, who is this person? No one knows, all done over the internet. Then they let them carry it out on their own, nothing gets out, the people above don't know it's coming.

And..?????????

And.... I'd expect an answer from you that is more than 3 letters.

I don't care what you expect. I am not getting into a free for all with you. That proves nothing. I can give my opinion with one word if that is all it takes. TYVM

Yes you can. But one would assume that you come on here because you actually want to talk about things, learn from people, try and understand the issues as they stand, rather than come on here and demand everyone listen to you and then post responses that simply don't add to any debate at all.

I mean, seriously here, if you're here to just say "this is my opinion and you have to accept it and nothing else" then I just won't bother with you. I don't come on here to fuck around.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Torture doesn't work... Has been said by experts...

Usually the information is false.

Modern interrogation techniques from properly trained professionals does work and leads to loads of valuable information.

But to anyone who knows about Cell Terrorist operations the guys performing the attack know nothing about other attacks... There is a manual for this shit...

Torture only emboldens the radicals and allows them to quite rightly state that you are just animals.. It also weakens your allies co-operation... Do you think if you get a name for torture that any European country can handover there suspects to you? It is against the law....

Torture is just what idiots say when they want to look tough but evidence proves them to be totally wrong...

Torture has worked for centuries, dude, and I know you peaceniks think that you know better, but Cortez successfully tortured Aztecs for information and some of the local allies of theirs. It really helped them defeat the Aztecs. Francisco Franco and Sir Francis Wallsingham also used torture successfully. Wallsingham uncovered numerous plots against the English government by torturing Catholic priests and their secret supporters.

Sorry, Cowboy, but history plainly and clearly refutes your naive assertion.

 

[Kat]

Any bit of information is crucial no matter how small it seems. Its all collected and analized. Thats how they got Osama

And took them how long? And Osama was known to the authorities where he was.

The reality is you're dealing with people who have no idea about other cells, they're getting smart, they've learned that all attacks must be done without information. They give some money to these guys, who is this person? No one knows, all done over the internet. Then they let them carry it out on their own, nothing gets out, the people above don't know it's coming.

And..?????????

And.... I'd expect an answer from you that is more than 3 letters.

I don't care what you expect. I am not getting into a free for all with you. That proves nothing. I can give my opinion with one word if that is all it takes. TYVM

Yes you can. But one would assume that you come on here because you actually want to talk about things, learn from people, try and understand the issues as they stand, rather than come on here and demand everyone listen to you and then post responses that simply don't add to any debate at all.

I mean, seriously here, if you're here to just say "this is my opinion and you have to accept it and nothing else" then I just won't bother with you. I don't come on here to fuck around.

You are you, and I am myself. I post as I choose, and you shall not change that for me. You think you have to post 4 paragraphs (which NO ONE reads). I don't.
Find someone else to fight with. It won't be me.
I gave my opinion on torture. You know very well what I think. So get off my ass...find someone else. Understand that??? /unwatch and going where someone in here is halfway interesting, and doesn't bore me to tears.

 

[Yarddog]

Now you may be correct there. I don't know...

Attacks are far more likely to succeed when nobody knows anything, right?

Which would mean that we need to do all we can to know, right?

Yeah, which means torturing people who have no idea about anything other than their own thing, isn't going to help, is it?

I mean, I could torture you about the 2017 Superbowl score and winning team, doesn't mean you're going to give it to me, does it?

You have a terrorist who just killed 30 people, sitting there in a chair, you ask him where he lives and who he lives with, he doesnt answer you. Awww well, lets just forget that. not important information.

You ask him who he lives with. He lives with the other people who carried out this attack. He lives in some flat somewhere. You go, you find evidence of his attack.

What you don't find is evidence of any attack that will happen in 4 months time. because they don't have any evidence that will lead to anyone who is in another cell. Because they've made it so water tight that different cells don't have any contact with each other, they might not even have the same handlers, if they do they won't know who that person is.

So, what does torture get you? It tells you there was an attack. But you knew that already.

Why do you think they've had two attacks in 4 months? Because they can't deal with the manner in which these people are operating.

"They" would include CIA, MI5, Mossad, Belgium and French secret services along with others in Europe, especially Germany.

This happens and they didn't know it was happening. For a reason. Because these guys are operating intelligently. The guys who are controlling them won't be found.

How can you possibly know that?? people fuck up and make mistakes. thats how cases are solved. ever hear the phrase, "turning over every stone" ? theyre looking for a mistake by these terrorists, but the sooner you get the information the better

 

[Agit8r]

Torture doesn't work... Has been said by experts...

Usually the information is false.

Modern interrogation techniques from properly trained professionals does work and leads to loads of valuable information.

But to anyone who knows about Cell Terrorist operations the guys performing the attack know nothing about other attacks... There is a manual for this shit...

Torture only emboldens the radicals and allows them to quite rightly state that you are just animals.. It also weakens your allies co-operation... Do you think if you get a name for torture that any European country can handover there suspects to you? It is against the law....

Torture is just what idiots say when they want to look tough but evidence proves them to be totally wrong...

Torture has worked for centuries, dude, and I know you peaceniks think that you know better, but Cortez successfully tortured Aztecs for information and some of the local allies of theirs. It really helped them defeat the Aztecs. Francisco Franco and Sir Francis Wallsingham also used torture successfully. Wallsingham uncovered numerous plots against the English government by torturing Catholic priests and their secret supporters.

Sorry, Cowboy, but history plainly and clearly refutes your naive assertion.

You're thinking of "enhanced" conversion. Not the same.