I am American, and I respect Christianity.

[JoeB131]

Um, Hitler's religion is debated among scholars.

Scholars don't debate it one little bit.

Christian Apologists do, but they are guilty of what is know as the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy.

But let's go down your little fantasy path and say he was a secret worshipper of Wotan or some such shit, even though there is not a shred of real evidence from credible "scholars" sor such a thing.

That doesn't excuse the millions of other Germans who were in the NSDAP, SS, Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe who were undoubtably Christian and went along with the crazy anyway.

The thing you guys forget is that anti-Semitism is in the German religioius DNA. Martin Luther himself wrote a book called "The Jews and their Lies". Passion Plays in Germany blame the death of Jesus on the Jews all the way up until Vatican II.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I suppose we have the concept of "America" to thank for mellowing the Christians...


Can you imagine the Catholics and the Protestants of today behaving like the Sunnis and the Shiites

Besides which, the very concept of America is a Christian one.

No it's not. It's a Liberal one. Separation of church and state was not a Christian idea. Those of us who cherish freedom for all above personal religion fought hard for that.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Um, Hitler's religion is debated among scholars.

Scholars don't debate it one little bit.

Christian Apologists do, but they are guilty of what is know as the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy.

But let's go down your little fantasy path and say he was a secret worshipper of Wotan or some such shit, even though there is not a shred of real evidence from credible "scholars" sor such a thing.

That doesn't excuse the millions of other Germans who were in the NSDAP, SS, Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe who were undoubtably Christian and went along with the crazy anyway.

The thing you guys forget is that anti-Semitism is in the German religioius DNA. Martin Luther himself wrote a book called "The Jews and their Lies". Passion Plays in Germany blame the death of Jesus on the Jews all the way up until Vatican II.

First rule of holes, stop digging.

Scholarly Opinion

According to Max Domarus Hitler promoted the idea of God as the creator of Germany, but Hitler was not a Christian or conservative.[36] Domarus also points out that Hitler did not believe in organized religion and did not see himself as a religious reformer.[36] According to historian Laurence Rees, "Hitler did not believe in the afterlife, but he did believe he would have a life after death because of what he had achieved."[37] Historian Richard Overy maintains that Hitler was not a "practising Christian," nor was he a "thorough atheist."[38] Samuel Koehne, a Research Fellow at the Alfred Deakin Research Institute, working on the official Nazi views on religion, answers the question Was Hitler a Christian? thus: "Emphatically not, if we consider Christianity in its traditional or orthodox form: Jesus as the son of God, dying for the redemption of the sins of all humankind. It is a nonsense to state that Hitler (or any of the Nazis) adhered to Christianity of this form."[39] Koehne says Hitler was probably not an atheist and refers to the fact that recent works have asserted that he was a deist.[39] According to Robert S. Wistrich Hitler thought Christianity was finished but he did not want any direct confrontation for strategic reasons.[40]
Hitler simplified Arthur de Gobineau's elaborate ideas of struggle for survival between the different races, among which the Aryan race, guided by providence, was supposed to be the torchbearers of civilization.[41] In Hitler's conception, Jews were enemies of all civilization, especially the Volk. Although Hitler has been called a "Social Darwinist, he was not such in the usual sense of the word. Whereas Social Darwinism stressed struggle, change, the survival of the strongest, and a ceaseless battle of competition, Hitler, through the use of modern industrial technology and impersonal bureaucratic methods ended all competition by the ruthless suppression of all opponents."[42] His understanding of Darwinism was incomplete and based loosely on the theory of "survival of the fittest" in a social context, as popularly misunderstood at the time.[43][44] According to Hitler's personal photographer Heinrich Hoffmann, the Catholic priest Bernhard Stempfle was a prominent member of Hitler's inner circle and frequently advised him on religious issues.[45]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#Scholarly_Opinion

 

[bobcollum]

Whoopty-shit.

Kill them wherever they are.

You're not impressed with my bipartisan friendships on the board, big surprise, KG also hates it when things don't fit into her narrative.

"But some of my best friends are _______!"

Uh huh.

Uh-huh, and it's true. You're having trouble accepting that for some reason.

Guess what? Killing them wherever they are is a ridiculous strategy, and I'm going out on a limb even calling it that. Too bad religion has to keep us in the region we don't need otherwise.

Ridiculous? What would you do? Send a strongly-worded letter? Offer to bake cookies with them?

You can't negotiate with people who want you dead. They will only accept your death.

If you want to make them happy, go for it. But you don't get to offer anyone else's life along with your own.

Pffft. And liberals wonder why they can't be trusted with national security. They're fucking clueless.

I'd say we'd be best just getting the out of the region, leaving them to sort out their own lives on their own terms, which is how it's going to happen anyway.

But we can't do that, we have to defend some patch of desert that gains Americans absolutely nothing in the end but more war.

It's funny that you think people like me are clueless about national security. In the eleven years since 9/11 we've gone the aggressive route, and we're dealing with the exact same problems that are if anything, worse than they were in '01.

Perpetual war isn't the answer.

 

[bobcollum]

You're not quite as big an asshole as I thought.

...what? That's a compliment! Right?

I guess, but you really had no reason to think I was an asshole in the first place.

Oh, no, not at all. You just said me and other Christians were nostalgic for the Crusades and the Inquisition.

If you favor war with Islam than that's how I see you.

I certainly didn't claim all Christians want that.

 

[Contumacious]

Wow. The historical ignorance is stunning.

Excuse me vernon. WHEN did Kuwait become a sovereign nation?!?!?

Kuwait was part of Iraq . It was controlled by the UK. While Iraq was fighting against Iran in order to please Reagan and Rumfilled Kuwait stole the Ramallah oild fields. Bush I authorized Saddam to invade Kuwait and recoover the oil fields then without warning he changed his mind.

Kuwait because a sovereign nation in 1961 -- 29 years before Iraq's invasion.

4. The shoot down was ACCIDENTAL.

As was Pan Am Flight 103, while flying over Lockerbie ,

WTF?!

It was not an accidental shoot-down. It was a deliberate bombing.

What kind of a retard are you?

One that does not swallow bullshit.

The article that you linked to stated that Iraq did not recognize Kuwait's independence. But if Kuwait was independent so were the Southern United States as of December 20, 1860.

If you buy the fact that the USS Vincenness shot down an UNARMED CIVILIAN AIRPLANE then you should be retarded enough to buy the fact that Pan AM 103 was accidentally shot down....what's good for the goose...

.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Still waiting for evidence that the pro-terrorists support Christianity in the same way they claim to support terrorists..I mean Islam.

Still waiting for your opinion on the concept of the religious, by definition, neutering their religion the moment they admit that other religions have a right to exist.

Are freedom and tolerance mutually exclusive to a society with religions that are worth dying for, assuming more than one such passionate religion exists?

 

[daveman]

You're not impressed with my bipartisan friendships on the board, big surprise, KG also hates it when things don't fit into her narrative.

"But some of my best friends are _______!"

Uh huh.

Uh-huh, and it's true. You're having trouble accepting that for some reason.

Guess what? Killing them wherever they are is a ridiculous strategy, and I'm going out on a limb even calling it that. Too bad religion has to keep us in the region we don't need otherwise.

Ridiculous? What would you do? Send a strongly-worded letter? Offer to bake cookies with them?

You can't negotiate with people who want you dead. They will only accept your death.

If you want to make them happy, go for it. But you don't get to offer anyone else's life along with your own.

Pffft. And liberals wonder why they can't be trusted with national security. They're fucking clueless.

I'd say we'd be best just getting the out of the region, leaving them to sort out their own lives on their own terms, which is how it's going to happen anyway.

But we can't do that, we have to defend some patch of desert that gains Americans absolutely nothing in the end but more war.

It's funny that you think people like me are clueless about national security. In the eleven years since 9/11 we've gone the aggressive route, and we're dealing with the exact same problems that are if anything, worse than they were in '01.

Perpetual war isn't the answer.

Neither is bending over and hoping they lube up first.

 

[daveman]

I guess, but you really had no reason to think I was an asshole in the first place.

Oh, no, not at all. You just said me and other Christians were nostalgic for the Crusades and the Inquisition.

If you favor war with Islam than that's how I see you.

I certainly didn't claim all Christians want that.

Ahem.

I give credit to Christians for being able to accept living in a society with secular laws. That's probably the biggest difference between most religions and Islam over the last 500 years, and it truly makes quite a difference in the civility of a nation or region, imo.

Unfortunately, old habits are hard to kick.​

So you can stop claiming you didn't say what you said.

 

[Too Tall]

Instead of doing a little research and finding out the reason for their anger you make a blanket accusation...let's ;look a history:

1- The US has been financing the Palestininan genocide since 1949;

2- In 1953 the CIA overthrew Iran's Premier Mosaddegh ;

3- In 1990 the US invaded Iraq, murdered millions and remained there for 20 years;

4- on 3 July 1988 the USS Vincennes shot down Iran's CIVILIAN Air Flight 655 ;

5- now the US is threatening to invade Iran just because.

1. Since the establishment of limited Palestinian self-rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the mid-1990s, the U.S. government has committed over $4 billion in bilateral assistance to the Palestinians, who are among the world’s largest per capita recipients of international foreign aid. Successive Administrations have requested aid for the Palestinians to support at least three major U.S. policy priorities of interest to Congress:

The Palestinians have the right to Palestine in its entirety. The zionists have been allowed to colonize the West bank. The US and the Talmudist state are in the process of punishing the Gaza Strip residents for daring to use democracy to elect Hamas.

The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was preceded by more than 50 years of efforts to establish a sovereign state as a homeland for Jews.

This support led to the 1947 UN partition plan, which would have divided Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem under UN administration.

On May 14, 1948, soon after the British quit Palestine, the State of Israel was proclaimed and was immediately invaded by armies from neighboring Arab states, which rejected the UN partition plan. This conflict, Israel's War of Independence, was concluded by armistice agreements between Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria in 1949 and resulted in a 50% increase in Israeli territory.

Excuse me vernon. WHEN did Kuwait become a sovereign nation?!?!?

Kuwait gained independence from the United Kingdom in 1961. Kuwait is a constitutional emirate with a parliamentary system of government. Kuwait City serves as the country's political and economic capital.

Kuwait was part of Iraq . It was controlled by the UK. While Iraq was fighting against Iran in order to please Reagan and Rumfilled Kuwait stole the Ramallah oild fields. Bush I authorized Saddam to invade Kuwait and recoover the oil fields then without warning he changed his mind.

That is total bullshit and you must know it.

4. The shoot down was ACCIDENTAL.

As was Pan Am Flight 103, while flying over Lockerbie

Pan AM Flight 103 was not shot down and the bomb in the cargo compartment that blew it up was no accident.

. We may assist Israel in stopping their development of nuclear weapons.

Why.

Israel and the US have nuclear weapons. The US used them criminally in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Iran has NEVER invaded a foreign country.

The US used whatever was necessary to force a country that attacked us to unconditionally surrender. NOTHING was illegal about it.

Iran invaded American soil when they entered our Embassy in 1979 and held 52 Americans hostage for 444 days. Everything was illegal about that.

 

[Londoner]

Which, incidentally, doesn't encourage psychotic murderers.

Jesus opposed the oppression of the Roman Empire. He was the original Marx because he supported the poor in their perennial struggle against the powerful.

How do you feel about the neoliberal GOP Big Business bastardization of Christ?

That is,

How do you feel about the Capitalist Christ who sides with those who own government?

That is,

How do you feel about the Christ who hates the meek?

(because he cares more about tax cuts than those who were not born with his luck or his priveledge)

 

[daveman]

Wow. The historical ignorance is stunning.

Excuse me vernon. WHEN did Kuwait become a sovereign nation?!?!?

Kuwait was part of Iraq . It was controlled by the UK. While Iraq was fighting against Iran in order to please Reagan and Rumfilled Kuwait stole the Ramallah oild fields. Bush I authorized Saddam to invade Kuwait and recoover the oil fields then without warning he changed his mind.

Kuwait because a sovereign nation in 1961 -- 29 years before Iraq's invasion.

As was Pan Am Flight 103, while flying over Lockerbie ,

WTF?!

It was not an accidental shoot-down. It was a deliberate bombing.

What kind of a retard are you?

One that does not swallow bullshit.

The article that you linked to stated that Iraq did not recognize Kuwait's independence. But if Kuwait was independent so were the Southern United States as of December 20, 1860.

If you buy the fact that the USS Vincenness shot down an UNARMED CIVILIAN AIRPLANE then you should be retarded enough to buy the fact that Pan AM 103 was accidentally shot down....what's good for the goose...

.

Oh. You're THAT kind of retard.

Terrorists the world over thank you for your mindless support.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Meanwhile, back in reality:

No deaths were caused by anyone offended by this image.

The death toll is still rising over images like this.

Tolerance. That's why Christians are cool, in the here and now at least... even of not so much in the past.

And you won't find anyone who denies that Christianity had a violent past.

But some people, in their mad rush to look all "tolerant" and "multi-cultural", project that same violent past on the present -- and excuse Islam's violent present.

This thread, and any other thread with criticism of Islam, is crawling with it -- as if radical Islamists wouldn't kill their non-Muslim defenders given the opportunity. "But...but I defended you on the internet! What are you doing with that kniGURGLE GURGLE"

I've never understood why people criticize Christianity for being fundamentalist, intolerant, homophobic, and misogynistic -- but give Islam a free pass for being all those things in far greater degree.

Anybody wanna take a shot at explaining that?

Anyone excusing the violence perpetrated by the Muslim world in the here and now is wrong, in my humble opinion. I have not seen any posts that decry Christian behavior and give Islam a "free pass" as you call it.

Can you provide a link to such? I'd like to respond to posts like that!

 

[daveman]

Tolerance. That's why Christians are cool, in the here and now at least... even of not so much in the past.

And you won't find anyone who denies that Christianity had a violent past.

But some people, in their mad rush to look all "tolerant" and "multi-cultural", project that same violent past on the present -- and excuse Islam's violent present.

This thread, and any other thread with criticism of Islam, is crawling with it -- as if radical Islamists wouldn't kill their non-Muslim defenders given the opportunity. "But...but I defended you on the internet! What are you doing with that kniGURGLE GURGLE"

I've never understood why people criticize Christianity for being fundamentalist, intolerant, homophobic, and misogynistic -- but give Islam a free pass for being all those things in far greater degree.

Anybody wanna take a shot at explaining that?

Anyone excusing the violence perpetrated by the Muslim world in the here and now is wrong, in my humble opinion. I have not seen any posts that decry Christian behavior and give Islam a "free pass" as you call it.

Can you provide a link to such? I'd like to respond to posts like that!

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...n-and-i-respect-christianity.html#post6080148

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...n-and-i-respect-christianity.html#post6080565

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...n-and-i-respect-christianity.html#post6080575

And that's just on the first page.

 

[bobcollum]

Oh, no, not at all. You just said me and other Christians were nostalgic for the Crusades and the Inquisition.

If you favor war with Islam than that's how I see you.

I certainly didn't claim all Christians want that.

Ahem.

I give credit to Christians for being able to accept living in a society with secular laws. That's probably the biggest difference between most religions and Islam over the last 500 years, and it truly makes quite a difference in the civility of a nation or region, imo.

Unfortunately, old habits are hard to kick.​

So you can stop claiming you didn't say what you said.

You realize this doesn't show me making a comment that's anything close to what your accusing me of, yes?

You're really being a hack right now.

 

[Contumacious]

1. Since the establishment of limited Palestinian self-rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the mid-1990s, the U.S. government has committed over $4 billion in bilateral assistance to the Palestinians, who are among the world’s largest per capita recipients of international foreign aid. Successive Administrations have requested aid for the Palestinians to support at least three major U.S. policy priorities of interest to Congress:

The Palestinians have the right to Palestine in its entirety. The zionists have been allowed to colonize the West bank. The US and the Talmudist state are in the process of punishing the Gaza Strip residents for daring to use democracy to elect Hamas.

The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was preceded by more than 50 years of efforts to establish a sovereign state as a homeland for Jews.

This support led to the 1947 UN partition plan, which would have divided Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem under UN administration.

On May 14, 1948, soon after the British quit Palestine, the State of Israel was proclaimed and was immediately invaded by armies from neighboring Arab states, which rejected the UN partition plan. This conflict, Israel's War of Independence, was concluded by armistice agreements between Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria in 1949 and resulted in a 50% increase in Israeli territory.

Excuse me vernon. WHEN did Kuwait become a sovereign nation?!?!?

Kuwait gained independence from the United Kingdom in 1961. Kuwait is a constitutional emirate with a parliamentary system of government. Kuwait City serves as the country's political and economic capital.

Kuwait was part of Iraq . It was controlled by the UK. While Iraq was fighting against Iran in order to please Reagan and Rumfilled Kuwait stole the Ramallah oild fields. Bush I authorized Saddam to invade Kuwait and recoover the oil fields then without warning he changed his mind.

That is total bullshit and you must know it.



As was Pan Am Flight 103, while flying over Lockerbie

Pan AM Flight 103 was not shot down and the bomb in the cargo compartment that blew it up was no accident.

. We may assist Israel in stopping their development of nuclear weapons.

Why.

Israel and the US have nuclear weapons. The US used them criminally in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Iran has NEVER invaded a foreign country.

The US used whatever was necessary to force a country that attacked us to unconditionally surrender. NOTHING was illegal about it.

Excuse me ding dong, fucking FDR was fighting against Japan in Indochina before the attack, FDR froze Japanese accounsts in US banks, and refused to allow oil companies to sell to Japan BEFORE Pearl Harbor.

Also the overwhelming amount of Americans opposed entering WWII - FDR NEEDED an attack to change Americans minds - so FDR traded Americans lives in Hawaii for the privilege of entering WWII . Just what scumbag LBJ did with the USS Liberty. Wake the fuck up.

.

Iran invaded American soil when they entered our Embassy in 1979 and held 52 Americans hostage for 444 days. Everything was illegal about that.

Iran retaliated for what the US CIA did in 1954 - it deposed an elected Iranian prime minister.

Are you dumb and blind?

.

 

[bobcollum]

And you won't find anyone who denies that Christianity had a violent past.

But some people, in their mad rush to look all "tolerant" and "multi-cultural", project that same violent past on the present -- and excuse Islam's violent present.

This thread, and any other thread with criticism of Islam, is crawling with it -- as if radical Islamists wouldn't kill their non-Muslim defenders given the opportunity. "But...but I defended you on the internet! What are you doing with that kniGURGLE GURGLE"

I've never understood why people criticize Christianity for being fundamentalist, intolerant, homophobic, and misogynistic -- but give Islam a free pass for being all those things in far greater degree.

Anybody wanna take a shot at explaining that?

Anyone excusing the violence perpetrated by the Muslim world in the here and now is wrong, in my humble opinion. I have not seen any posts that decry Christian behavior and give Islam a "free pass" as you call it.

Can you provide a link to such? I'd like to respond to posts like that!

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...n-and-i-respect-christianity.html#post6080148

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...n-and-i-respect-christianity.html#post6080565

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...n-and-i-respect-christianity.html#post6080575

And that's just on the first page.

Granted, they're not what you asked for Joe, but sometimes almost is all you can get.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Irrelevant.

If you say so, it's your thread.


Do YOU think religion worth dying for and a free and tolerant society can coexist?

What do you think... Does admitting that all religions, including Islam, have an equal right to exist not render all religions impotent?

Can humanity have it both ways?

It is easy to die for your religion, the hard part is living for it. Any culture that does not allow people to live for their religion cannot be described as either free or tolerant.

Not untrue and not the point of the question, but thanks for trying.

It is a VERY tough question for American Christians to answer because of the whole 'freedom & tolerating others' versus 'NO one gets to The Father except through Jesus and everyone else is going to hell' dogmas battling it out in their hearts.

You can't have it both ways... either your religion is right and you are justified or everyone should be free to think for themselves. A truly religious person can't justify actual respect for freedom of religion without rendering his religion impotent.

Not the first time I've posed this thesis in this thread - I'd love to get an opinion on it from a religious person or two but I sense fear.

 

[logical4u]

Still waiting for evidence that the pro-terrorists support Christianity in the same way they claim to support terrorists..I mean Islam.

Still waiting for your opinion on the concept of the religious, by definition, neutering their religion the moment they admit that other religions have a right to exist.

Are freedom and tolerance mutually exclusive to a society with religions that are worth dying for, assuming more than one such passionate religion exists?

Religion is a set of beliefs, and the cultural promotion of said beliefs. Christianity believes that each person has a relationship with the Lord (if they acknowledge it or not). It is up to that person to worship the Lord as they choose. Christians will tell people the good news (gospel)/point out poor decisions and even "bless them" (sometimes if the person does not want to hear it).

Respecting each person's right to choose how they deal with the Lord is not "neutering their religion" (some of the other religions that have to use force to keep their "believers" faithful might have theirs neutered).

I know you guys don't want to hear it, don't want to acknowledge it, but before the different Christian denominations came together to form this country, subjects of rulers, worshipped according to the rulers' beliefs. In communism, it is that way also (there are some churches, were the message is controlled by the state, but they follow the gov't beliefs or they go to prison).

Forcing someone to follow another's rules, seldom works for long. It buildes a chain of tyrants/dictators/self-proclaimed gods. Christians were taught this long ago. They have been swayed to "go along to get along", but have learned that doesn't work. It just allows oppressors to put people into subservient status.

No religion causes chaos, for if each person is allowed to decide what is right and wrong, their personal comfort is before anyone else's. Anarchy benefits no one (as the top dog is always replaced by the next top dog).

We are spiritual beings. IMHO, Christianity, is the only faith, that gives each person responsibility for their own soul. That faith alone has caused more charity, and more generosity than has ever been seen on this planet.

There really is no comparison to what happens when people practice Christianity, compared to the practice of other faiths.

If you believe that others are better, please list the reasons or evidence that demonstrates productivity and generosity.

 

[Dot Com]

KG's thread hasn't been aborted yet?