i can see this turning ugly

[AllieBaba]

I have no idea. The article is so one sided that it's pretty hard to establish a decent fact pattern.

Since I am not going to wade through 24 pages of insults, does anyone have a link that gives the school's side of the story?

Although not much from the school here is another link given by someone else.

Christian student sues ASU | The Augusta Chronicle

Keeton claims that she has voiced her Christian beliefs inside and outside the classroom on homosexuality and other biblical teachings. ASU faculty has ordered her to undergo a remediation plan, which would include diversity sensitivity workshops, she says.

Professors also suggested that she attend Augusta's Gay Pride Parade last month, Keeton told her attorneys. As a part of the plan, she would report back once a month to faculty to determine whether the activities have an impact on her convictions.

Keeton, who is from the Atlanta area, plans to become a school counselor, and says she refuses to change her religious beliefs. She enrolled in the program last fall, but was not asked to begin the remediation plan until this summer.

"While I want to stay in the school counseling program, I know that I can't honestly complete the remediation plan knowing that I would have to alter my beliefs," Keeton said in a video produced by the defense fund. "I'm not willing to, and I know I can't change my biblical views."

What they want to do is send her to a "re-education" camp. They want to brainwash her. They are hypocrites.

Immie

Thanks. I actually found it on my own. Keep in mind that this is all still Keeton's claim. She'll have her day in court, but I suspect there is more to this issue than Keeton is claiming.

Really?
Based on what, her faith?
Lol. Perfect.

 

[geauxtohell]

Of course it is absurd, a Christian Scientist who does not believe in medicine is not going to attend medical school. That is why her (and bodecca's "faith healer") statements don't apply here.

Ms. Keeton has commented that she would not let her personal beliefs enter into the equation.

This school is persecuting her because of her beliefs, not because of what she may or may not do.

Immie

The larger point is, your religious beliefs don't get to trump the standards of a profession you want to enter.

If you can't buy the Christian Scientist scenario, then how about this:

"You are a Jehovah's Witness in medical school who believes blood is sacred and refuses to do a transfusion on a patient."

Or:

"You are a Rastafarian in medical school that believes it's your religious right to walk around and see patients with a doobie hanging out of your mouth."

 

[AllieBaba]

And the even bigger point...our government and schools NEVER get to deny anything to anyone based on religion.

Ever.

 

[geauxtohell]

Really?
Based on what, her faith?
Lol. Perfect.

No. Based on the fact that we are only getting one side of this story.

Keeton's lawyers have been astute enough to hold press conferences knowing the school can't comment on the matter out of respect for Ms. Keeton's right to privacy over her academic records.

So you guys are doing cheetah flips, but suppose this issue really boils down to this:

"Keeton was a poor student who had been told that she should keep her personal opinions about homosexuality out of her academic writings as it was not proper. Keeton then fails a class and is ordered to remediate to stay in the program. Keeton claims she is being discriminated against and sues to try and save her academic ass."

Then what?

 

[geauxtohell]

And the even bigger point...our government and schools NEVER get to deny anything to anyone based on religion.

Ever.

So you'd support a Wahhibist having a top secret security clearance and access to state secrets?

I didn't think so.

 

[Immanuel]

Excuses, excuses, excuses, GTH. A poor writer? Come on she is in graduate school, you don't get to grad school writing like TDM.

I am basing that off of the OP in which it was stated that:

In May, Keeton was notified that she would be asked to participate in a remediation plan. Mary Jane Anderson-Wiley, an associate professor who also oversees student education and discipline, explained that the faculty wanted to see Keeton's writing skills improve and that they are concerned with some of her beliefs and views pertaining to GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender) issues.

Again, this is all per Keeton. And the fact that she is in grad school doesn't mean she is writing at the caliber that is expected of her for that degree. That is why a Master's is different than a bachelor's. She is more than a year into Grad school. Now they are claiming she needs remedial writing courses after they tell her that her religious viewpoints are unacceptable? I don't buy it.



According to Keeton.

She stated (according to the article) that she understood about keeping her personal beliefs out of a counseling session. If she can pass the courses then the institute of higher education, has a duty to give her the degree. They've taken her money joyfully for the last year.

Again, according to Keeton. If she wasn't going to implement her personal beliefs into her profession, then why was she incorporating her personal opinions into academic writing? Is this an institute of higher education or a cult training ground? From the sounds of it, it is closer to a cult training ground than an institute of higher education Maybe that was one of the problems.

Excuse me if I am not so quick to jump on the "Christian Persecution" bandwagon when the wheels always fall off of it (meaning that these issues always have more to them them religious discrimination).

Whether or not she is qualified to perform in the profession she has chosen is not up to the school. That is up to the licensing board.

Immie

It is the prerogative of the board of curators to bestow a degree upon someone based on their standards. You don't get a degree simply for paying tuition and showing up. I know of people that have been expelled in their last semester of Medical School. The point is, Universities feel they have a duty to the profession they are serving and it is fully within their rights to deny a degree as long as the student has been given due process and it's not based on discrimination. She has as far as I know passed all of her classes to date. Due process? Do you consider a re-education camp to be due process? They are hypocritically attempting to make her into something she is not while claiming that she would do so to students and they don't even have proof that she would do so.

Discrimination is a hard sell too. Your religious beliefs don't necessarily give you carte blanche to say whatever the hell you want. Are they trying to promote independent thinking or produce robots?

I doubt anyone would fault a University for expelling a member of the vile Phelps family for exercising their family's unique "religion". So, because my uncle (hypothetically speaking) is Fred Phelps, I may as well not attend a university? Is that the way it is?

(Not saying Keeton is equivalent with the Phelps family, just making a point).

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Of course it is absurd, a Christian Scientist who does not believe in medicine is not going to attend medical school. That is why her (and bodecca's "faith healer") statements don't apply here.

Ms. Keeton has commented that she would not let her personal beliefs enter into the equation.

This school is persecuting her because of her beliefs, not because of what she may or may not do.

Immie

The larger point is, your religious beliefs don't get to trump the standards of a profession you want to enter.

If you can't buy the Christian Scientist scenario, then how about this:

"You are a Jehovah's Witness in medical school who believes blood is sacred and refuses to do a transfusion on a patient."

Or:

"You are a Rastafarian in medical school that believes it's your religious right to walk around and see patients with a doobie hanging out of your mouth."

No one says her religious beliefs get to trump the standards of the profession, but, it is up to the licensing body to decide whether or not she is qualified and willing to abide by their code of ethics, not the school.

And according to her, she would not let her beliefs interfere with her job.

Are you claiming that all doctors have to believe the exact same things or they cannot practice medicine? If that is your claim, then how do you expect medicine to advance?

If all scientists had to believe the same thing, then we would still believe that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Ms. Keeton's belief that homosexuality is not genetic (although, I for one think she may very well be wrong with that belief) is not a crime and believing such does not make her an evil person. Nor does it mean that she would harm any student deliberately or otherwise.

Apparently, these professors want to force her to be something she is not. That is wrong and quite frankly, evil of them.

Immie

 

[Madeline]

And the even bigger point...our government and schools NEVER get to deny anything to anyone based on religion.

Ever.

This happens all the time, Allie. People who believe they should get to sacrifice animals in religious ceremonies, people who do not believe in the death penalty, people who do not believe in medical care for children, etc. When conduct is required or prohibitted by the state for everyone, no one can escape the consequences of non-adherence merely by claiming a religious basis.

On the other hand, I find your claim that christians are discriminated against in the US so absurd I hardly know where to begin. Those of us who are non-christians feel plenty of discrimination and intrusion from you guys.

 

[AllieBaba]

Those people are breaking laws, fascist.

 

[ConHog]

And the even bigger point...our government and schools NEVER get to deny anything to anyone based on religion.

Ever.

This happens all the time, Allie. People who believe they should get to sacrifice animals in religious ceremonies, people who do not believe in the death penalty, people who do not believe in medical care for children, etc. When conduct is required or prohibitted by the state for everyone, no one can escape the consequences of non-adherence merely by claiming a religious basis.

On the other hand, I find your claim that christians are discriminated against in the US so absurd I hardly know where to begin. Those of us who are non-christians feel plenty of discrimination and intrusion from you guys.

Discrmination against Christians is a FACT in this country. The FACT that you refuse to admit it does indicates that you support such but are too chicken shit to admit it. Do you deny that black on white racism DOES exist in this nation? How about white on black? What about male on female? Are you getting my point? EVERY group has someone who discriminates against them, your blanket denial notwithstanding.

 

[topspin]

She should change her major to comic books ahem religion. Fail this retard.

 

[Madeline]

Allie, I don't especially mind being insulted by you, but it is ignorant beyond belief to keep using the word "facist" to describe social liberals. Nazi Germany and certain other nations had facist regimes, and few governments were ever as cruel towards homosexuals.

Please do try and be somewhat more accurate in your insults. For example, I find you to be a homophobe and an ignorant woman, full of hatred and a danger to people I love. I might call you a facist, except I don't really think you have any sophisticated political ideal....you just want to vent spleen on people who disagree with you.

 

[geauxtohell]

She is more than a year into Grad school. Now they are claiming she needs remedial writing courses after they tell her that her religious viewpoints are unacceptable? I don't buy it.

I know of people who have failed out of Medical School in their last semester. The simple fact that she was a year in doesn't mean she has earned the degree or met the standard. This could be an ongoing problem with her.

We just don't know.

Also, the school didn't comment on her religion per se, but one particular belief of her religion that she felt the need to introduce into her academic work.

Highly unprofessional.

Is this an institute of higher education or a cult training ground? From the sounds of it, it is closer to a cult training ground than an institute of higher education

Would you expect a plaintiff to claim anything else?

Excuse me if I am not so quick to jump on the "Christian Persecution" bandwagon when the wheels always fall off of it (meaning that these issues always have more to them them religious discrimination).

She has as far as I know passed all of her classes to date. Due process? Do you consider a re-education camp to be due process? They are hypocritically attempting to make her into something she is not while claiming that she would do so to students and they don't even have proof that she would do so.

"Due process" is the term I used because it is legally correct. A school can't just kick someone out for academic deficiency without giving them a chance to correct their deficiencies.

As for "re-education" and her academic standing, we are going to have to wait for her day in court to get the facts. I am not tempted to paint the school as the villain based on one side of a lawsuit.

Or vice versa.

Are they trying to promote independent thinking or produce robots?

That's silly. Keeton's personal opinion on homosexuality is not appropriate in the context of a professional degree.

So, because my uncle (hypothetically speaking) is Fred Phelps, I may as well not attend a university? Is that the way it is?

Uh no. If your Uncle is Fred Phelps and you adhere to a "God Hates Fags" that violates university policy then the university has a right to call you on it. That's not persecution. Your religious beliefs don't entitle you to harass others.

 

[topspin]

I'd fail that bitch in a second every time she put some comic book Christian babble in a paper.

 

[geauxtohell]

No one says her religious beliefs get to trump the standards of the profession, but, it is up to the licensing body to decide whether or not she is qualified and willing to abide by their code of ethics, not the school.

And according to her, she would not let her beliefs interfere with her job.

Are you claiming that all doctors have to believe the exact same things or they cannot practice medicine? If that is your claim, then how do you expect medicine to advance?

If all scientists had to believe the same thing, then we would still believe that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Ms. Keeton's belief that homosexuality is not genetic (although, I for one think she may very well be wrong with that belief) is not a crime and believing such does not make her an evil person. Nor does it mean that she would harm any student deliberately or otherwise.

Apparently, these professors want to force her to be something she is not. That is wrong and quite frankly, evil of them.

Immie

You are just wrong. It is up to the school do decide if she meets the standard for a degree that would allow her to be licensed.

That is absolutely the school's prerogative.

The issue here isn't Ms. Keeton's personal belief. It's Ms. Keeton's insistence that her personal beliefs be included into her professional academic work.

That's the difference.

Plenty of Doctors think abortion is wrong. Only a wingnut Dr. who believed that would berate a patient for having an abortion or editorialize to them about what they personally think.

 

[Madeline]

I'm absolutely sure there are many fine therapists and counselors who are christians. I'm also confident it is rarely, if ever, appropriate to reveal one's religious beliefs to a public school student in a counseling setting.

 

[AllieBaba]

No one says her religious beliefs get to trump the standards of the profession, but, it is up to the licensing body to decide whether or not she is qualified and willing to abide by their code of ethics, not the school.

And according to her, she would not let her beliefs interfere with her job.

Are you claiming that all doctors have to believe the exact same things or they cannot practice medicine? If that is your claim, then how do you expect medicine to advance?

If all scientists had to believe the same thing, then we would still believe that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

Ms. Keeton's belief that homosexuality is not genetic (although, I for one think she may very well be wrong with that belief) is not a crime and believing such does not make her an evil person. Nor does it mean that she would harm any student deliberately or otherwise.

Apparently, these professors want to force her to be something she is not. That is wrong and quite frankly, evil of them.

Immie

You are just wrong. It is up to the school do decide if she meets the standard for a degree that would allow her to be licensed.

That is absolutely the school's prerogative.

The issue here isn't Ms. Keeton's personal belief. It's Ms. Keeton's insistence that her personal beliefs be included into her professional academic work.

That's the difference.

Plenty of Doctors think abortion is wrong. Only a wingnut Dr. who believed that would berate a patient for having an abortion or editorialize to them about what they personally think.

Wrong. They cannot determine she doesn't meet the standard based on her stated religion. That is against the law. Period.

 

[AllieBaba]

Allie, I don't especially mind being insulted by you, but it is ignorant beyond belief to keep using the word "facist" to describe social liberals. Nazi Germany and certain other nations had facist regimes, and few governments were ever as cruel towards homosexuals.

Please do try and be somewhat more accurate in your insults. For example, I find you to be a homophobe and an ignorant woman, full of hatred and a danger to people I love. I might call you a facist, except I don't really think you have any sophisticated political ideal....you just want to vent spleen on people who disagree with you.

My insults are perfectly accurate.
Yours, however, are patently false.

So where is the evidence that I declared homosexuality a mental illness, that the woman in question avowed to harass gays, or that I hate gays?

And since when is it an insult to say that gays aren't genetically programmed, you dumb ****?

It's certainly less of an insult than any of the garbage you spew.

 

[ConHog]

Allie, I don't especially mind being insulted by you, but it is ignorant beyond belief to keep using the word "facist" to describe social liberals. Nazi Germany and certain other nations had facist regimes, and few governments were ever as cruel towards homosexuals.

Please do try and be somewhat more accurate in your insults. For example, I find you to be a homophobe and an ignorant woman, full of hatred and a danger to people I love. I might call you a facist, except I don't really think you have any sophisticated political ideal....you just want to vent spleen on people who disagree with you.

Oh, do shut up. Yes Allie incorrectly uses the term fascism to describe certain people, but I have seen Bush as well as conservatives on this board referred to as Nazis, fascists, neocons, and any other number of political terms which didn't and don't apply. Yet , strangely, I have never seen you point that out to them. Wonder why that is Madeline?

Oh, and speaking of that, Allie is not homophobic, she is adamant in her religious beliefs that it is wrong, why do you wish to deny her her first amendment right? Oh yeah, b/c she's a Christian, that's right. Yes, I fully realize you'll deny that, but it doesn't change the fact.

Neither is she ignorant, if you want to see someone on this board who is truly ignorant, I reference you to TruthMatters who believes a federal judge is an elected official. Or perhaps Ravi who tells 39 lies in 5 pages has them all pointed out to her and responds with "I'm right and you're a racist", or maybe CurvedLight who responds to any and all debates with "you're a stoopid ****". Just a few examples of truly ignorant fools who I have yet to see you call out a single time for their stupidity. I wonder why that is Madeline?

Oh, and you answered my question I had about your feelings towards Christianity when you essentially called it unsophisticated without actually saying that. At least others on here who make fun of Christians for being Christians have the personal integrity to be up front about it.

In short, you're a pathetic, hypocritical, partisan, lying hack.

 

[topspin]

Christians are retaded to a comical state. And I want to say thanks. Giving a bible answer and getting rightfully failed is failing for being wrong. Lofl