I Don't Think Many Of You Know What "Confronted" Means

[Peach]

The Federal investigation will center on a possible civil rights violation/hate crime, likely under the Matthew Shepard/James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009.

The alleged racial epithet would be key to such an investigation.

The people who founded our nation were often mob-ish in action, but believed the system they set up would keep their not so better natures from running rough shod over the rights of individuals, and over the rule of law: Principles over personalities and emotions.

Correct.

The rule of law and due process – with regard to both civil and criminal cases – ensures no civil liberties are violated in the ‘heat of the moment.’

I don't think he committed a hate crime, though I don't know what's in his heart.

I think he is guilty of thinking black teens are criminals. Not a hate crime, just giving into stereotypical behavior.

The DEATH of the minor will be the subject of the STATE Grand Jury proceedings, I HOPE & PRAY.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The Federal investigation will center on a possible civil rights violation/hate crime, likely under the Matthew Shepard/James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009.

The alleged racial epithet would be key to such an investigation.


Correct.

The rule of law and due process – with regard to both civil and criminal cases – ensures no civil liberties are violated in the ‘heat of the moment.’

I don't think he committed a hate crime, though I don't know what's in his heart.

I think he is guilty of thinking black teens are criminals. Not a hate crime, just giving into stereotypical behavior.

The DEATH of the minor will be the subject of the STATE Grand Jury proceedings, I HOPE & PRAY.

I hate the idea that it is to be initiated not because of the system, but because of the public. This is a dispute between citizens, not between a citizen and the police or the system.

I may be wrong, but I think this man is innocent and the push to find something, anything, will end up becoming a miscarriage of justice. I hope I am wrong.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

from the OP link (post #1) Sanford, Fla., explains why George Zimmerman was not arrested - BlogPost - The Washington Post

The city is now being assisted by the U.S. Department of Justice and FBI, which have opened a criminal investigation into Martin’s death.

I stand corrected here.

 

[Peach]

I don't think he committed a hate crime, though I don't know what's in his heart.

I think he is guilty of thinking black teens are criminals. Not a hate crime, just giving into stereotypical behavior.

The DEATH of the minor will be the subject of the STATE Grand Jury proceedings, I HOPE & PRAY.

I hate the idea that it is to be initiated not because of the system, but because of the public. This is a dispute between citizens, not between a citizen and the police or the system.

I may be wrong, but I think this man is innocent and the push to find something, anything, will end up becoming a miscarriage of justice. I hope I am wrong.

I darn sure hope the Grand Jury does their job based on the law & facts, and are not swayed by outside considerations.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The DEATH of the minor will be the subject of the STATE Grand Jury proceedings, I HOPE & PRAY.

I hate the idea that it is to be initiated not because of the system, but because of the public. This is a dispute between citizens, not between a citizen and the police or the system.

I may be wrong, but I think this man is innocent and the push to find something, anything, will end up becoming a miscarriage of justice. I hope I am wrong.

I darn sure hope the Grand Jury does their job based on the law & facts, and are not swayed by outside considerations.

I have more faith in a grand jury than the Justice Dept when it comes to issues where the public is demanding a pound of flesh. Grand juries will often indict easily, but they can resist easily when they want to.

The Justice Dept has been political in many cases.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Yes. It is alleged a racial epithet was used, but how and why, and when will be important.

Just using an epithet during the commission of a crime is not of itself a crime.

True.

And among the other things to be investigated is what was the length of time between the alleged racial remark and the actual shooting.

Someone may say with impunity he hates black people and would like to see them all dead, that’s protected speech. One may not say to an angry crowd, however, to meet at a nearby street corner in five minutes and kill the first black person seen, that’s not protected speech and would likely constitute a hate crime.

I don't think he committed a hate crime, though I don't know what's in his heart.

I think he is guilty of thinking black teens are criminals. Not a hate crime, just giving into stereotypical behavior.

And this is a serious issue in need of remedy in the context of social and public policy, not the judicial system.

 

[Peach]

He chased down an unarmed black teen who, while being taped begging for his life was shot dead.

"Black" makes it not a crime? That your point?

Conclusions are up to the Grand Jury.

Yes, if and when a grand jury is called to hear this. The Police Dept showed up and upon preliminary investigation concluded no crime was committed. In the OP: "...the letter, signed by Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr., says. “By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time.” (Caps are theirs.)"

Do you know for a fact where things stand with the city, state, and the feds - if at all? I'm looking to discuss facts and legal issues raised by credible authorities and figures.

Nothing but opinions are available till the Grand Jury hands down an indictment or NO indictment. (My guess is scared shirtless for the city, county, ans state however.)

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The fact that it's not clear that he DID break the law is the reason for the outrage.

Ghedditt!?!?

outrage? do you know how many black teenagers are purposefully gunned down in the streets in American cities? Where the fuck is the outrage there?

People are making this out like it is an injustice perpetrated by the system. It isn't. It was a dispute between two citizens that ended in tragedy.

---

Why does MarcATL want a lynch mob before all evidence is in? Is his mind affected by some kind of mental illness? This is a serious question. MarcATL and a few other people have become completely unhinged over a tragedy that is not theirs.

What is it about lonely shut-ins with internet service that makes them so angry and irrational?

 

[Peach]

Well, tox analyses are SOP in autopsies, for one. Secondly, the police cannot do a BAC test on anyone without probable cause or their consent; it is illegal. Third, the law allows for someone to shoot another in these circumstances given the current evidence.

If he broke the law, then he should be tried. It's not clear that he DID break the law.

Secondly, the police cannot do a BAC test on anyone without probable cause or their consent; it is illegal.

Discharging a firearm which resulted in a death should be enough "cause".

Ummm, probable cause is specific to the actual investigation to be done - a test for alcohol. Discharging a firearm or even killing someone is not a standard indication of intoxication.

Refusing a breathalyzer can cost you your DL in Florida. As no attempt was made to get a BAC or drug test, too late now.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Conclusions are up to the Grand Jury.

Yes, if and when a grand jury is called to hear this. The Police Dept showed up and upon preliminary investigation concluded no crime was committed. In the OP: "...the letter, signed by Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr., says. “By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time.” (Caps are theirs.)"

Do you know for a fact where things stand with the city, state, and the feds - if at all? I'm looking to discuss facts and legal issues raised by credible authorities and figures.

Nothing but opinions are available till the Grand Jury hands down an indictment or NO indictment. (My guess is scared shirtless for the city, county, ans state however.)

Opinions based on facts. Knowing what is true and not true in news reports is difficult. Even an investigation by the city or state is better than news reports

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Yes. It is alleged a racial epithet was used, but how and why, and when will be important.

Just using an epithet during the commission of a crime is not of itself a crime.

True.

And among the other things to be investigated is what was the length of time between the alleged racial remark and the actual shooting.

Someone may say with impunity he hates black people and would like to see them all dead, that’s protected speech. One may not say to an angry crowd, however, to meet at a nearby street corner in five minutes and kill the first black person seen, that’s not protected speech and would likely constitute a hate crime.

I don't think he committed a hate crime, though I don't know what's in his heart.

I think he is guilty of thinking black teens are criminals. Not a hate crime, just giving into stereotypical behavior.

And this is a serious issue in need of remedy in the context of social and public policy, not the judicial system.

Yes. We can't make every instance of disrespect among citizens a crime. We have laws to cover most instances where we mostly all agree lines of behavior and action are crossed.

 

[Amelia]

The fact that it's not clear that he DID break the law is the reason for the outrage.

Ghedditt!?!?

outrage? do you know how many black teenagers are purposefully gunned down in the streets in American cities? Where the fuck is the outrage there?

People are making this out like it is an injustice perpetrated by the system. It isn't. It was a dispute between two citizens that ended in tragedy.

---

Why does MarcATL want a lynch mob before all evidence is in? Is his mind affected by some kind of mental illness? This is a serious question. MarcATL and a few other people have become completely unhinged over a tragedy that is not theirs.

What is it about lonely shut-ins with internet service that makes them so angry and irrational?

A dispute?

Chasing down a teenager because you have issues with black men is a dispute?

One person tracking and one person fleeing is not a dispute.

Try again.

 

[Si modo]

Secondly, the police cannot do a BAC test on anyone without probable cause or their consent; it is illegal.

Discharging a firearm which resulted in a death should be enough "cause".

Ummm, probable cause is specific to the actual investigation to be done - a test for alcohol. Discharging a firearm or even killing someone is not a standard indication of intoxication.

Refusing a breathalyzer can cost you your DL in Florida. As no attempt was made to get a BAC or drug test, too late now.

Was Zimmerman driving?

No.

And, as it is ILLEGAL TO TAKE A BAC without consent or probable cause, there was none done on Zimmerman.

You are a dishonest person. You keep asking about a BAC on Zimmerman, and you know damn well why one wasn't done because I keep telling you why and so do others.

Stop your dishonesty.

 

[Gadawg73]

No you stupid MORAN...the point is that those in this society who were actually most recently lynched, blacks, aren't the ones harping on and on and on about that term, using it indiscriminately and with no thought, rhyme or reason.

The only folks going on and on and on about "being lynched" actually have it cooshy nice and cozy, and are not members of any minority group. Yet they someone feel the need to be a victim and used such a historically charged word to show-case their victim-hood. Well, perceived and faux victim-hood rather.

No one is being lynched, no one has been lynched for decades. No one.

Talk about whiners.

Marc, let me appeal to your reason and commnon sense.
The district attorney released their information Tuesday that they are convening a grand jury and the evidence will be given to the grand jury. If the grand jury comes back with a bill of indictment then there will surely be an arrest.
The police turned this case over to the district attorney's office as there is an investigative division of the district attorney's office. Now take into the consideration of this crazy rewritten Stand Your Ground Statute in 2005. Wouldn't you want someone with the DA's office investigating this as that would stand better ground in the presentation of the evidence to the grand jury than a police division investigative agency that is good at gathering the evidence at the scene and then turning it over?
Now if you were in charge of these rallies being held by the NAACP and Al Sharpton wouldn't you have believed it to be a good idea to tell all of those in attendance at these rallies and protests the truth: "The grand jury is meeting and we will wait and see if they indict Zimmerman and see when the trial date is"?
Marc, what else can anyone do other than gather the evidence, present it to the grand jury and arrest someone when the bill of indictment comes in?
Isn't it obvious to you that the reason that these good folks that want justice for this young man if he was gunned down and not in self defense need to be told the truth about the process from their own leaders and others leading these protests and gatherings?
They are not being told the truth. They are being told nothing has been done and that is a lie. The case was set for a grand jury and these good folks are also being taken advantage of for publicity reasons only.
And no one is speaking out against that and advising them of the facts of the process at any of these rallies.

So is that why Zimmerman was allowed to go free after killing an unarmed black teenage boy?

Is that why the dead black teenage boy had a drug test done on his body, but not so much as a question to the free-roaming Zimmerman?

The outrage is over the blatant lack of justice.

I think it's fair to expect AT LEAST an arrest for Zimmerman while the authorities proceed with all you've stated above.

At the very least. That is fair afterall....isn't it?

Wouldn't it be better to gather all of the evidence, indict him and that way if the totality of the evidence that has been gathered after a lengthy investigation is so strong the bail will be set very high.
I guarantee you that IF he had been arrested he would have made bail within a few days after his arrest PRE INDICTMENT.
That is the way it always works Marc. If he is not indicted and there is a question of LAW as there is with The Stand My Ground statute the bail has to be reasonable.
We may not like that but don't you want the applicable law to apply to the bail.
Justice comes at the conclusion of due process. I believe you know that so enough steam blown off and let us get to the realities of the common law.
Fair? Our system of justice in America is the best in the world. What seems fair to one side NEVER seems fair to another.
Lady Justice with the scales always tips one way or another. Get used to it and embrace it.
You win some and you lose some but NONE are ever rained out.

 

[Gadawg73]

The fact that it's not clear that he DID break the law is the reason for the outrage.

Ghedditt!?!?

outrage? do you know how many black teenagers are purposefully gunned down in the streets in American cities? Where the fuck is the outrage there?

People are making this out like it is an injustice perpetrated by the system. It isn't. It was a dispute between two citizens that ended in tragedy.

---

Why does MarcATL want a lynch mob before all evidence is in? Is his mind affected by some kind of mental illness? This is a serious question. MarcATL and a few other people have become completely unhinged over a tragedy that is not theirs.

What is it about lonely shut-ins with internet service that makes them so angry and irrational?

A dispute?

Chasing down a teenager because you have issues with black men is a dispute?

One person tracking and one person fleeing is not a dispute.

Try again.

He had issues with his community being hit by burglaries and robberies in epidemic proportions. As hard as you want to try this has not been proven to be a race issue.
The transcripts of the 911 call can not make out and confirm any racial names called.
To date that is a myth spread by the vast legal team for the girl friend.

 

[Gadawg73]

So is that why Zimmerman was allowed to go free after killing an unarmed black teenage boy?

Is that why the dead black teenage boy had a drug test done on his body, but not so much as a question to the free-roaming Zimmerman?

The outrage is over the blatant lack of justice.

I think it's fair to expect AT LEAST an arrest for Zimmerman while the authorities proceed with all you've stated above.

At the very least. That is fair afterall....isn't it?

Well, tox analyses are SOP in autopsies, for one. Secondly, the police cannot do a BAC test on anyone without probable cause or their consent; it is illegal. Third, the law allows for someone to shoot another in these circumstances given the current evidence.

If he broke the law, then he should be tried. It's not clear that he DID break the law.

Secondly, the police cannot do a BAC test on anyone without probable cause or their consent; it is illegal.

Discharging a firearm which resulted in a death should be enough "cause".

Wrong and
Wrong.
We may not like the law but you are wrong on both counts under Florida law.
We are a nation of LAW, not men and their various religous and legal beliefs.

 

[Gadawg73]

Oh, there are many innocent victims in this incident all over the place.
No matter what happens the families of both of these young men are all victims.
And I fault none of them for seeking the best remedy possible and best outcome for any, and/or all involved.
Been there, done that, seen it and did not care about getting the T shirt.
No matter what happens in this THERE ARE NO WINNERS.

 

[MarcATL]

Marc, let me appeal to your reason and commnon sense.
The district attorney released their information Tuesday that they are convening a grand jury and the evidence will be given to the grand jury. If the grand jury comes back with a bill of indictment then there will surely be an arrest.
The police turned this case over to the district attorney's office as there is an investigative division of the district attorney's office. Now take into the consideration of this crazy rewritten Stand Your Ground Statute in 2005. Wouldn't you want someone with the DA's office investigating this as that would stand better ground in the presentation of the evidence to the grand jury than a police division investigative agency that is good at gathering the evidence at the scene and then turning it over?
Now if you were in charge of these rallies being held by the NAACP and Al Sharpton wouldn't you have believed it to be a good idea to tell all of those in attendance at these rallies and protests the truth: "The grand jury is meeting and we will wait and see if they indict Zimmerman and see when the trial date is"?
Marc, what else can anyone do other than gather the evidence, present it to the grand jury and arrest someone when the bill of indictment comes in?
Isn't it obvious to you that the reason that these good folks that want justice for this young man if he was gunned down and not in self defense need to be told the truth about the process from their own leaders and others leading these protests and gatherings?
They are not being told the truth. They are being told nothing has been done and that is a lie. The case was set for a grand jury and these good folks are also being taken advantage of for publicity reasons only.
And no one is speaking out against that and advising them of the facts of the process at any of these rallies.

So is that why Zimmerman was allowed to go free after killing an unarmed black teenage boy?

Is that why the dead black teenage boy had a drug test done on his body, but not so much as a question to the free-roaming Zimmerman?

The outrage is over the blatant lack of justice.

I think it's fair to expect AT LEAST an arrest for Zimmerman while the authorities proceed with all you've stated above.

At the very least. That is fair afterall....isn't it?

Wouldn't it be better to gather all of the evidence, indict him and that way if the totality of the evidence that has been gathered after a lengthy investigation is so strong the bail will be set very high.
I guarantee you that IF he had been arrested he would have made bail within a few days after his arrest PRE INDICTMENT.
That is the way it always works Marc. If he is not indicted and there is a question of LAW as there is with The Stand My Ground statute the bail has to be reasonable.
We may not like that but don't you want the applicable law to apply to the bail.
Justice comes at the conclusion of due process. I believe you know that so enough steam blown off and let us get to the realities of the common law.
Fair? Our system of justice in America is the best in the world. What seems fair to one side NEVER seems fair to another.
Lady Justice with the scales always tips one way or another. Get used to it and embrace it.
You win some and you lose some but NONE are ever rained out.

so u say.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The fact that it's not clear that he DID break the law is the reason for the outrage.

Ghedditt!?!?

outrage? do you know how many black teenagers are purposefully gunned down in the streets in American cities? Where the fuck is the outrage there?

People are making this out like it is an injustice perpetrated by the system. It isn't. It was a dispute between two citizens that ended in tragedy.

---

Why does MarcATL want a lynch mob before all evidence is in? Is his mind affected by some kind of mental illness? This is a serious question. MarcATL and a few other people have become completely unhinged over a tragedy that is not theirs.

What is it about lonely shut-ins with internet service that makes them so angry and irrational?

A dispute?

Chasing down a teenager because you have issues with black men is a dispute?

One person tracking and one person fleeing is not a dispute.

Try again.

Chasing down? hmmmmm....

because the man was black? double hmmmmmmmmmmm, hmmmmmmm....

fleeing? who? the kid who confronted the man and started a verbal dispute - according to his girlfriend?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

outrage? do you know how many black teenagers are purposefully gunned down in the streets in American cities? Where the fuck is the outrage there?

People are making this out like it is an injustice perpetrated by the system. It isn't. It was a dispute between two citizens that ended in tragedy.

---

Why does MarcATL want a lynch mob before all evidence is in? Is his mind affected by some kind of mental illness? This is a serious question. MarcATL and a few other people have become completely unhinged over a tragedy that is not theirs.

What is it about lonely shut-ins with internet service that makes them so angry and irrational?

A dispute?

Chasing down a teenager because you have issues with black men is a dispute?

One person tracking and one person fleeing is not a dispute.

Try again.

He had issues with his community being hit by burglaries and robberies in epidemic proportions. As hard as you want to try this has not been proven to be a race issue.
The transcripts of the 911 call can not make out and confirm any racial names called.
To date that is a myth spread by the vast legal team for the girl friend.

the gated community was racially mixed 20% Black, 20% Hispanic, 40% Anglo/White, and Asians and others the rest... according to Public Radio reporter.

and you said Zimmerman was arrested and questioned. hmmmm, sounds like a tragedy as teh story will never suffice for some people.