I Don't Think Many Of You Know What "Confronted" Means

[Si modo]

I hate the idea that it is to be initiated not because of the system, but because of the public. This is a dispute between citizens, not between a citizen and the police or the system.

I may be wrong, but I think this man is innocent and the push to find something, anything, will end up becoming a miscarriage of justice. I hope I am wrong.

I darn sure hope the Grand Jury does their job based on the law & facts, and are not swayed by outside considerations.

I have more faith in a grand jury than the Justice Dept when it comes to issues where the public is demanding a pound of flesh. Grand juries will often indict easily, but they can resist easily when they want to.

The Justice Dept has been political in many cases.

I also have more faith in the grand jury. The DOJ has a long history of being a political tool.

This is exactly the situation you alluded to. The public (mob) is outraged over this tragedy, while ignoring, either willfully or unwittingly, the law in the jurisdiction. They want their pound of flesh.

Our country was not founded on mob rule, in fact our entire justice system is designed to prevent that - to be blind.

We are not villagers-with-torches who CAN exact a pound of flesh at our whim. And we should all be thankful that we can't, because it could just as easily be us, depending on how effective the instigators' rhetoric is.

THAT is the bigger picture - protect and defend the PROCESS, irrespective of our feelings about the persons involved - lest the next one the villagers want is us.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Mother Jones has a good aticle on this, as well as clear audio for all of the 911 calls and links to transcripts.

The Trayvon Martin Killing, Explained | Mother Jones

A good question was asked here:

UPDATE 3, 9:30 p.m. EDT, Monday, March 19: Where is Trayvon Martin's cellphone?

When Trayvon Martin was killed, all he had were Skittles, iced tea...and a cellphone, authorities told the L.A. Times. The phone has been mentioned in multiple reports in recent days, and journalists and concerned citizens are starting to ask: Where is Trayvon's phone? Why did the police on the scene of the shooting not use it to identify Martin, or contact his next of kin? "Trayvon's body was bagged and taken to the morgue, where he was tagged as a John Doe," writes African American affairs blogger Sandra Rose. "No one contacted Trayvon's family even though police had Trayvon's cell phone in their possession."
The lack of information about Martin's phone is feeding further skepticism about the police's conduct, and it's led New York Times columnist Charles Blow to start a new meme on Twitter:

Charles M. Blow ✔@CharlesMBlow Make this trend: Where is Trayvon's cellphone?
19 Mar 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite

and

Why is the history of the Sanford Police Department in question?

Sanford PD's officers have suffered a series of public missteps in recent years, according to local reporters. In 2006 two private security guards—the son of a Sanford police officer, and a volunteer for the department—killed a black teen with a single gunshot in his back. Even though they admitted to never identifying themselves, the guards were released without charges. In 2009, after an assailant allegedly attempted to rape a child in her home, the department was called to task for sitting on the suspect's fingerprints, delaying identification and pursuit of the attacker.

Perhaps the most significant incident occurred in late 2010: Justin Collison, the son of a Sanford PD lieutenant, sucker-punched a homeless black man outside a bar, and officers on the scene released Collison without charges. He eventually surrendered after video of the incident materialized online. The police chief at the time was ultimately forced into retirement. "Bottom line, we didn't do our job that night," a Police Department representative told WFTV of the incident. The TV station later learned that the Sanford patrol sergeant in charge on the night of Collison's assault, Anthony Raimondo, was also the first supervisor on the scene of Trayvon Martin's shooting death.

As a result of these incidents and their initial handling of Martin's death, the Sanford Police Department has been under increased scrutiny. Martin's parents have suggested they might call for Police Chief Bill Lee to resign.

and another thing:

UPDATE 14, 12:45 EDT, Wednesday, March 21: Is a Koch brothers group behind the "stand your ground" laws?

Media Matters reports that a notorious Koch brothers-funded lobby group may have played a leading role in writing and passing the 2005 Florida self-defense law that's reportedly hindering prosecution against George Zimmerman.

As Mother Jones has reported before, the American Legislative Exchange Council often writes conservative legislation that finds its way onto the lawbooks—it's shaped energy laws, as well as labor fights in Wisconsin and Michigan. (It's also recently been caught red-handed passing its legislation onto lawmakers in Florida.) But Media Matters says ALEC has also teamed up with the National Rifle Association to pass "stand your ground" legislation to protect shooters:

and, OF COURSE:

PDATE 15, 3:30 p.m. EDT, Wednesday, March 21: Glenn Beck website calls Trayvon Martin "aggressor," implies he's a criminal

In a separate post here at Mother Jones, my colleague Adam Serwer has flagged two articles from the Blaze, Glenn Beck's news site, that 1) call Trayvon Martin the "aggressor," 2) intimate the furor over Martin's death is cooked up by minority racial activists, and 3) speculate that Martin was suspended from school for, possibly, maybe, "'armed robbery,' 'arson,' 'kidnapping' or 'sexual battery.'" Adam's piece is a must-read.

The Blaze pieces are written not by a random anonymous commenter but by Mytheos Holt, a Wesleyan graduate and former speechwriter for Sen. John Barrasso (R-Wyo.). Holt claims to hail from the mean streets of Big Sur, California, where 0.3 percent of the population is African-American.

Koch brothers and Glenn Beck? seals the deal. guilty by association. let's hang the innocent prick!!!

 

[Barb]

Strong possibility. Probably, maybe, could be, leaning that way, has to be.

None of that means a damn thing in criminal court. And I thank the Constitution for that.

Now we would not ever want a "rush to judgment" would we?

Federal civil rights violation standards are pretty tough to prove. The tape helps proves race was a motivating factor.

I think he was racially motivated to follow this kid but I do not believe he followed him with the intention to kill him. I think he was likely on a power trip. Bu it happened so quickly after Zimmerman got out of the car I suspect Zimmerman likely pulled out his gun intending to hold the kid at gunpoint until cops arrived and the sight of it threw the kid into an understandable panic and he started screaming for help, threw his Skittles at him, maybe tried hitting or shoving and fighting to get away. The fact the teenager had time to scream for help for half a minute or so says Zimmerman didn't get out and immediately kill him. The girlfriend who was on the phone with the kid heard him ask Zimmerman why he was following him and heard Zimmerman demand to know what the kid was doing -and then he screamed for help and the phone was disconnected. On 911 calls you can hear him screaming for help for several seconds more before the gunshot.

This kid had no idea who Zimmerman was but knew he wasn't a cop. As far as he was concerned he was a big white guy up to no good who had been following him for no reason who pulled a gun on him and intended to kill him. Once he started fighting and screaming for his life -Zimmerman made the wrong decision about how to control the situation and fired. Now he belongs in prison for the senseless killing during a stupid situation he needlessly created. I think the fitting crime would be voluntary manslaughter, not premeditated murder. I don't know if the racial motivation for the shooting itself exists or not -up to a jury, but I think it exists for following him. Maybe the law says if a racial motive exists at one part it does for the entire time -I don't know. I really do think he probably intended to hold him for cops but he was a kid already scared of this white guy following him for no reason and undoubtedly thought Zimmerman was going to kill him when he pulled the gun. Zimmerman was not prepared for the reaction and is now pretending he is the victim with the right to stand his ground under FL law and shoot him. But THIS kind of situation where he is actually the aggressor does not apply. But if the teen had had a gun, HE is the one who would have been justified to shoot after Zimmerman pulled the gun under that law. Because he is the one who was going about his business when accosted by Zimmerman -NOT the other way around. At every point, it is the teen who is the victim and Zimmerman the aggressor. Zimmerman needlessly created the entire situation and NEEDLESSLY used the threat of lethal violence against the kid -and then did use it. Stand your ground law does not apply to his actions-but i think definitely would have if the teen had killed him.

excellent post.
Ten dollars to a dime, that law would NOT be applied by that police department if Trayvon was the one who shot Zimmerman. Never.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Of course Martin was tested for alcohol and drugs....it's standard in an autopsy and autopsies are standard in fatal shootings. - see moh doh

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I darnoure hope the Grand Jury does their job based on the law & facts, and are not swayed by outside considerations.

I have more faith in a grand jury than the Justice Dept when it comes to issues where the public is demanding a pound of flesh. Grand juries will often indict easily, but they can resist easily when they want to.

The Justice Dept has been political in many cases.

I also have more faith in the grand jury. The DOJ has a long history of being a political tool.

This is exactly the situation you alluded to. The public (mob) is outraged over this tragedy, while ignoring, either willfully or unwittingly, the law in the jurisdiction. They want their pound of flesh.

Our country was not founded on mob rule, in fact our entire justice system is designed to prevent that - to be blind.

We are not villagers-with-torches who CAN exact a pound of flesh at our whim. And we should all be thankful that we can't, because it could just as easily be us, depending on how effective the instigators' rhetoric is.

THAT is the bigger picture - protect and defend the PROCESS, irrespective of our feelings about the persons involved - lest the next one the villagers want is us.

I could not 'thank' you in my own thread. WTF is going here?

 

[Barb]

You refuse to get it, Dante. It isn't just Zimmerman being criticized in all this. It is selective law enfrcement, the way the stand your ground law was applied in this case, that the same law encourages events like these, that there has been an increase in killings since it has been adopted in Fla and elsewhere, and, of course, all of it supported with the blame the victim rhetoric from like-minded assholes like you.

Go ahead, neg me again, it tickles.

 

[Si modo]

You refuse to get it, Dante. It isn't just Zimmerman being criticized in all this. It is selective law enfrcement, the way the stand your ground law was applied in this case, that the same law encourages events like these, that there has been an increase in killings since it has been adopted in Fla and elsewhere, and, of course, all of it supported with the blame the victim rhetoric from like-minded assholes like you.

Go ahead, neg me again, it tickles.

But he isn't blaming the victim.

Most probably agree that the law sucks, but it IS the law. As you can see above, the cops could not legally arrest Zimmerman.

Everyone is equal under the law, no matter how much we don't like the person or the law. And, we apply the CURRENT law to everyone.

We change the law as fast as we can, and that is not done in the courts.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Strong possibility. Probably, maybe, could be, leaning that way, has to be.

None of that means a damn thing in criminal court. And I thank the Constitution for that.

Now we would not ever want a "rush to judgment" would we?

Federal civil rights violation standards are pretty tough to prove. The tape helps proves race was a motivating factor.

I think he was racially motivated to follow this kid...

Duke Power!!!


[youtube]0bw55sR4ec8[/youtube]

and I have an account at a racist site Am I a racist? Is this post racist? think about IT

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I darn sure hope the Grand Jury does their job based on the law & facts, and are not swayed by outside considerations.

I have more faith in a grand jury than the Justice Dept when it comes to issues where the public is demanding a pound of flesh. Grand juries will often indict easily, but they can resist easily when they want to.

The Justice Dept has been political in many cases.

I also have more faith in the grand jury. The DOJ has a long history of being a political tool.

This is exactly the situation you alluded to. The public (mob) is outraged over this tragedy, while ignoring, either willfully or unwittingly, the law in the jurisdiction. They want their pound of flesh.

Our country was not founded on mob rule, in fact our entire justice system is designed to prevent that - to be blind.

We are not villagers-with-torches who CAN exact a pound of flesh at our whim. And we should all be thankful that we can't, because it could just as easily be us, depending on how effective the instigators' rhetoric is.

THAT is the bigger picture - protect and defend the PROCESS, irrespective of our feelings about the persons involved - lest the next one the villagers want is us.

I may start a web site for this guy's defense. This is getting crazy.

wtf is wrong with people? a lynch mob?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Jesus (hey zeus) Christ! This guy could be me or you. wtf is wrong with people? has the mob mentality taken over the nation?

46 Calls - The Daily Beast

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

 

[Si modo]

Jesus (hey zeus) Christ! This guy could be me or you. wtf is wrong with people? has the mob mentality taken over the nation?

46 Calls - The Daily Beast

Apparently so. More should notice.

More should value the process.

 

[Barb]

You refuse to get it, Dante. It isn't just Zimmerman being criticized in all this. It is selective law enfrcement, the way the stand your ground law was applied in this case, that the same law encourages events like these, that there has been an increase in killings since it has been adopted in Fla and elsewhere, and, of course, all of it supported with the blame the victim rhetoric from like-minded assholes like you.

Go ahead, neg me again, it tickles.

But he isn't blaming the victim.

Most probably agree that the law sucks, but it IS the law. As you can see above, the cops could not legally arrest Zimmerman.

Everyone is equal under the law, no matter how much we don't like the person or the law. And, we apply the CURRENT law to everyone.

We change the law as fast as we can, and that is not done in the courts.

Si, please. I don't see you blaming the kid, but it is completely unreasonable to expect me to believe that the law tied the officers hands as was contended within PR statement you posted. The Sanford City Council issued a no confidence statement towards the police department, their conduct in this incident is being investigated by higher authorities, and they've been in trouble for similar non-action before. The law does suck, but even that law does NOT protect Zimmerman, as it should have protected Trayvon if he were lucky, or fast, or strong enough to wrest the gun away and shoot Zimmerman. And you're too smart to believe that would have happened if the roles were reversed.

For god's sake, si, the police run a check on people at a TRAFFIC stop. They wouldn't have checked Zimmerman standing over a dead boy? This is reasonable?

 

[Si modo]

You refuse to get it, Dante. It isn't just Zimmerman being criticized in all this. It is selective law enfrcement, the way the stand your ground law was applied in this case, that the same law encourages events like these, that there has been an increase in killings since it has been adopted in Fla and elsewhere, and, of course, all of it supported with the blame the victim rhetoric from like-minded assholes like you.

Go ahead, neg me again, it tickles.

But he isn't blaming the victim.

Most probably agree that the law sucks, but it IS the law. As you can see above, the cops could not legally arrest Zimmerman.

Everyone is equal under the law, no matter how much we don't like the person or the law. And, we apply the CURRENT law to everyone.

We change the law as fast as we can, and that is not done in the courts.

Si, please. I don't see you blaming the kid, but it is completely unreasonable to expect me to believe that the law tied the officers hands as was contended within PR statement you posted. The Sanford City Council issued a no confidence statement towards the police department, their conduct in this incident is being investigated by higher authorities, and they've been in trouble for similar non-action before. The law does suck, but even that law does NOT protect Zimmerman, as it should have protected Trayvon if he were lucky, or fast, or strong enough to wrest the gun away and shoot Zimmerman. And you're too smart to believe that would have happened if the roles were reversed.

For god's sake, si, the police run a check on people at a TRAFFIC stop. They wouldn't have checked Zimmerman standing over a dead boy? This is reasonable?

Before the PR statement and upon inspection of the statute, I came to the same conclusion - there was no probable cause to detain him further (in that jurisdiction). Detention without probable cause is illegal.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

You refuse to get it, Dante. It isn't just Zimmerman being criticized in all this. It is selective law enfrcement, the way the stand your ground law was applied in this case, that the same law encourages events like these, that there has been an increase in killings since it has been adopted in Fla and elsewhere, and, of course, all of it supported with the blame the victim rhetoric from like-minded assholes like you.

Go ahead, neg me again, it tickles.

you people are making me nervous. I am NOT a racist. I follow Morris Dees, but I don't agree with everything he says. I have my own mind.

you people are getting mind fucked. group think. assholes like me? I've worked with vets, gays, homeless, minorities... I have a difficult time understanding the mob mentality of people I respect.

selective enforcement? that has nothing to do with MArtin and Zimmerman and what went down. Fuck! I fought with a black mother fucker who tried to kill me with a gun, and walked away...with no racism. I was targeted because I was white. Fuck, wake up.

I don't believe what is being portrayed as justice in America, it's sick lynch mob justice

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Jesus (hey zeus) Christ! This guy could be me or you. wtf is wrong with people? has the mob mentality taken over the nation?

46 Calls - The Daily Beast

Apparently so. More should notice.

More should value the process.

This shit is scary. Cons, libs, progressives, all get nutso where race is concerned. People forget process.

I want to start a fund for George even if he is a racist fuck. Which I don't believe.

I'm ashamed to be a member of the human race today.

 

[Barb]

Dante, I did not call you a racist. I called you an asshole and a douchebag (pretty sure I limited it to this subject), but never a racist.

 

[Barb]

Si, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Dante, I did not call you a racist. I called you an asshole and a douchebag (pretty sure I limited it to this subject), but never a racist.

the slippery slope. the fact that I feel you are being irrational about an incident that is far removed from our pathetic little lives...but an incident that goes to how we view each other as human beings...

jesus christ, don't you see what is happening...how people are transforming themselves into warriors for right vs wrong? shit, what is happening here is the American version of what we criticize in the extremist Muslim world


some of us have become ideological purists who would hang another human being because we perceive him as representing evil



George Zimmerman is NOT evil. He is a poor sucker caught up in a whirlwind of societal retribution

 

[Si modo]

Dante, I did not call you a racist. I called you an asshole and a douchebag (pretty sure I limited it to this subject), but never a racist.

Hi again, Barb.

Here is the statute itself (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html):

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

....

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

....​

Now, try to put yourself in the cops' shoes and imagine you know nothing about the parties - both the victim and the shooter have no faces and you only know what you see and hear that night.

And, look at the law within which you MUST operate.

Now, this is what we know:

One of the parties is dead from a gunshot wound.

One of the parties is not and admits to shooting the other party.

An eye witness told the cops they had seen the shooter on the ground and on his back just before the shooting.

The shooter had grass stains on his back.

The shooter had head wounds and those were attended to by the EMTs.

The shooter told the cops he called for help and no one came. And, a witness told cops that they had heard someone calling for help before the shooting.




Remember, no faces to the parties. No emotions. The law is written in plain English. And, no one can detain anyone without probable cause that a law was broken.

I know what I would do. How about you?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Dante, I did not call you a racist. I called you an asshole and a douchebag (pretty sure I limited it to this subject), but never a racist.

the slippery slope. the fact that I feel you are being irrational about an incident that is far removed from our pathetic little lives...but an incident that goes to how we view each other as human beings...

jesus christ, don't you see what is happening...how people are transforming themselves into warriors for right vs wrong? shit, what is happening here is the American version of what we criticize in the extremist Muslim world


some of us have become ideological purists who would hang another human being because we perceive him as representing evil



George Zimmerman is NOT evil. He is a poor sucker caught up in a whirlwind of societal retribution

----


you people scare me. I want to rethink why you are worth not destroying