I Don't Think the Stimulus is Working

[Wry Catcher]

On Feb. 13, 2009, Congress passed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 at the urging of President Obama, who signed it into law four days later. A direct response to the economic crisis, the Recovery Act has three immediate goals:

Create new jobs and save existing ones
Spur economic activity and invest in long-term growth
Foster unprecedented levels of accountability and transparency in government spending
The Recovery Act intends to achieve those goals by:

Providing $288 billion in tax cuts and benefits for millions of working families and businesses
Increasing federal funds for education and health care as well as entitlement programs (such as extending unemployment benefits) by $224 billion
Making $275 billion available for federal contracts, grants and loans
Requiring recipients of Recovery funds to report quarterly on how they are using the money. All the data is posted on Recovery.gov so the public can track the Recovery funds.

I suggest those who want to be informed read the link to Recovery.gov and not take Fox News and Foxfyer as the final word. Cherry picked stats and facts may fool some of the people all of the time (a shout-out to CrusaderFrank and Stepanie) but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

I'm willing to bet there isn't a single con who posts here who has ever gone to Recovery.gov. They believe it's all lies. They also won't read the extensive analysis done by Greenbeard. That would mean their beliefs that Obama & Co sit in the White House and dream up Socialist/Communist plots in order to form a new social order might not be true. They might have to admit that, in fact, they had no choice.

LOL I GO TO RECOVERY.ORG every day. It is from that site I got most of the INFO on how almost all the "JOBs" Created are temporary Jobs.

Try again.

Maybe you need to go read that whole site.

lol

Maybe you need to define "temporary jobs". Building a bridge or a highway or a buiding is a temporary job, once the project is built, however, other jobs are necessary to maintain or operate the finished project.
All construction jobs are temporary, are they not?
Either the conservatives on the MB are stupid (or stupid liars, Rep. Boehner, a fine example on MTP today) or actually believe the bull shit put forth by the Republican leadership, Limbaugh, Boehner, McConnell and Murdoc, which makes them willfully ignorant.

 

[Charles_Main]

On Feb. 13, 2009, Congress passed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 at the urging of President Obama, who signed it into law four days later. A direct response to the economic crisis, the Recovery Act has three immediate goals:

Create new jobs and save existing ones
Spur economic activity and invest in long-term growth
Foster unprecedented levels of accountability and transparency in government spending
The Recovery Act intends to achieve those goals by:

Providing $288 billion in tax cuts and benefits for millions of working families and businesses
Increasing federal funds for education and health care as well as entitlement programs (such as extending unemployment benefits) by $224 billion
Making $275 billion available for federal contracts, grants and loans
Requiring recipients of Recovery funds to report quarterly on how they are using the money. All the data is posted on Recovery.gov so the public can track the Recovery funds.

I suggest those who want to be informed read the link to Recovery.gov and not take Fox News and Foxfyer as the final word. Cherry picked stats and facts may fool some of the people all of the time (a shout-out to CrusaderFrank and Stepanie) but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Were you employed and selling stuff in the mid 90's? That's what a recovery feels like.

This is no recovery. This is a recession. It's not getting better. It's getting worse. The guy in charge has gotten everything he has sought to lead us to recovery and he is failing.

If there is a recovery, you don't need statistics to tell you it's happening. You will see it in privately funded construction projects, cities and states flush with tax revenues, growing and reinvigorated neighborhoods and politicians crowing about their success in creating jobs that they had nothing to do with.

If there is a failed recovery you will see it in the loss of jobs, houses and storefronts empty, cities and states laying off employees and shutting down programs and politicians feeling our pain and extending unemployment benefits.

By your own observations, is this a recovery or a failed recovery?

Of course your little scenarios completely ignore the cause of this particular recession, which is far, far different and more severe than any other.

It may be more severe but it is not differnt than any other Recession. The Factors contributing to it are all the same as always. The Cause of it was the Result of Decades of Bad Government Policy not a Few Years of Bush Tax cuts.

But then I would not expect a Liberal such as yourself to recognize that. You want the country to Buy Obama's line that it was the Bush tax cuts that lead directly to this Recession, when in fact the Main cause was 2 Fold. Deficit spending by the Government. (a problem that had been growing for DECADES) and Very Bad Policy and Practices in the Housing Market. Polices Pushed for and Defended by Liberal Democrats.

Must be nice living in your little dream world where Everything Bad was caused by Conservatives and Liberals are the truth and the light. Nice but not realistic at all.

 

[Samson]

Of course your little scenarios completely ignore the cause of this particular recession, which is far, far different and more severe than any other.

Maggie would have us stand, water up to our necks on the sinking Titanic while arguing about why there's a hole in the in the ship.

 

[Charles_Main]

I'm willing to bet there isn't a single con who posts here who has ever gone to Recovery.gov. They believe it's all lies. They also won't read the extensive analysis done by Greenbeard. That would mean their beliefs that Obama & Co sit in the White House and dream up Socialist/Communist plots in order to form a new social order might not be true. They might have to admit that, in fact, they had no choice.

LOL I GO TO RECOVERY.ORG every day. It is from that site I got most of the INFO on how almost all the "JOBs" Created are temporary Jobs.

Try again.

Maybe you need to go read that whole site.

lol

Maybe you need to define "temporary jobs". Building a bridge or a highway or a buiding is a temporary job, once the project is built, however, other jobs are necessary to maintain or operate the finished project.
All construction jobs are temporary, are they not?
Either the conservatives on the MB are stupid (or stupid liars, Rep. Boehner, a fine example on MTP today) or actually believe the bull shit put forth by the Republican leadership, Limbaugh, Boehner, McConnell and Murdoc, which makes them willfully ignorant.

LOL BULLSHIT.

The government is spending BILLIONS on Temporary Jobs. When those projects are complete, there may be a person or 2 Employed Because of them, BUT MOST OF THEM WILL BE OUT OF WORK.

Yes all construction jobs are Temporary. Which is WHY it is a terrible way to try and stimulate an economy in the long run. It was a feel good temporary Solution.

You did notice how they back loaded most of this type of spending so it all happened in this summer leading up to the election right. Even though we had to pass the stimulus RIGHT now or we faced a disaster, Strangely enough they were able to hold off on spending most of it until over 1 year later in a summer leading up to a mid term Election.

Go Figure.

Why?

Because the stimulus was about rewarding supporters, and creating the perception of recovery in the months leading up to the election, and not about doing what was best to stimulate the Economy.

 

[Samson]

I'm willing to bet there isn't a single con who posts here who has ever gone to Recovery.gov. They believe it's all lies. They also won't read the extensive analysis done by Greenbeard. That would mean their beliefs that Obama & Co sit in the White House and dream up Socialist/Communist plots in order to form a new social order might not be true. They might have to admit that, in fact, they had no choice.

LOL I GO TO RECOVERY.ORG every day. It is from that site I got most of the INFO on how almost all the "JOBs" Created are temporary Jobs.

Try again.

Maybe you need to go read that whole site.

lol

Maybe you need to define "temporary jobs". Building a bridge or a highway or a buiding is a temporary job, once the project is built, however, other jobs are necessary to maintain or operate the finished project.
All construction jobs are temporary, are they not?
Either the conservatives on the MB are stupid (or stupid liars, Rep. Boehner, a fine example on MTP today) or actually believe the bull shit put forth by the Republican leadership, Limbaugh, Boehner, McConnell and Murdoc, which makes them willfully ignorant.

Yes I'd agree that a "construction project" is a temporary job. But a highway isn't a house. Many of the unemployed are actually people whose income depended on the construction, finishing, and maintenance of homes.

I'd disagree that "conservatives on the MB are stupid" any more than their liberal counterparts.

 

[Charles_Main]

What is funny is Maggie is now admitting our Famed Stimulus was really a bunch of Spending on TEMPORARY construction jobs, and Massive Bail outs to failing state Budgets.

Now as I have said in the past. This spending might have been needed. You might be able to justify it, but what you can not do, what you would be lying if you said is, that this was the most efficient way to stimulate the economy.

It was not.

Which is why now we have stagnate growth and almost NO jobs being added. Because you do not create growth and create jobs with Construction spending, and Bail outs for medicare budgets. Plain and simple.

 

[Samson]

... this was the most efficient way to stimulate the economy.

It was not.

Which is why now we have stagnate growth and almost NO jobs being added. Because you do not create growth and create jobs with Construction spending, and Bail outs for medicare budgets. Plain and simple.

Then the question becomes: What is a more efficient way to stimulate the economy?

NO construction spending?

NO Bailouts?

 

[Foxfyre]

What is funny is Maggie is now admitting our Famed Stimulus was really a bunch of Spending on TEMPORARY construction jobs, and Massive Bail outs to failing state Budgets.

Now as I have said in the past. This spending might have been needed. You might be able to justify it, but what you can not do, what you would be lying if you said is, that this was the most efficient way to stimulate the economy.

It was not.

Which is why now we have stagnate growth and almost NO jobs being added. Because you do not create growth and create jobs with Construction spending, and Bail outs for medicare budgets. Plain and simple.

And the sad fact is that 'stopping the bleeding' is only a temporary fix when major surgery is indicated. For example, we were sold a bill of goods that General Motors was 'too big to fail' and that it would be disaster if we did not funnel mega billions of dollars into it to prevent bankruptcy. So we funneled the billions into it, bankruptcy was declared anyway, and the primary stockholders are now the U.S. government and the UAW meaning that any problems with this company will now be the responsibility of the tax payers.

And NONE of the problems that previously existed and put the company into jeopardy in the first place have been fixed.

We deserve better.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Uh huh.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Of course your little scenarios completely ignore the cause of this particular recession, which is far, far different and more severe than any other.

Maggie would have us stand, water up to our necks on the sinking Titanic while arguing about why there's a hole in the in the ship.

Glib, hyperbolic and pointing fingers at someone for doing something they themselves are doing.

 

[Wry Catcher]

What is funny is Maggie is now admitting our Famed Stimulus was really a bunch of Spending on TEMPORARY construction jobs, and Massive Bail outs to failing state Budgets.

Now as I have said in the past. This spending might have been needed. You might be able to justify it, but what you can not do, what you would be lying if you said is, that this was the most efficient way to stimulate the economy.

It was not.

Which is why now we have stagnate growth and almost NO jobs being added. Because you do not create growth and create jobs with Construction spending, and Bail outs for medicare budgets. Plain and simple.

And the sad fact is that 'stopping the bleeding' is only a temporary fix when major surgery is indicated. For example, we were sold a bill of goods that General Motors was 'too big to fail' and that it would be disaster if we did not funnel mega billions of dollars into it to prevent bankruptcy. So we funneled the billions into it, bankruptcy was declared anyway, and the primary stockholders are now the U.S. government and the UAW meaning that any problems with this company will now be the responsibility of the tax payers.

And NONE of the problems that previously existed and put the company into jeopardy in the first place have been fixed.

We deserve better.

Better being what? Doing nothing meant thousands of jobs lost, more homes in default, more small and medium business failures.
Yet you suggest the problems need to be fixed. How?

 

[Samson]

Of course your little scenarios completely ignore the cause of this particular recession, which is far, far different and more severe than any other.

Maggie would have us stand, water up to our necks on the sinking Titanic while arguing about why there's a hole in the in the ship.

Glib, hyperbolic and pointing fingers at someone for doing something they themselves are doing.

Generalised, opaque and irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Foxfyre]

What is funny is Maggie is now admitting our Famed Stimulus was really a bunch of Spending on TEMPORARY construction jobs, and Massive Bail outs to failing state Budgets.

Now as I have said in the past. This spending might have been needed. You might be able to justify it, but what you can not do, what you would be lying if you said is, that this was the most efficient way to stimulate the economy.

It was not.

Which is why now we have stagnate growth and almost NO jobs being added. Because you do not create growth and create jobs with Construction spending, and Bail outs for medicare budgets. Plain and simple.

And the sad fact is that 'stopping the bleeding' is only a temporary fix when major surgery is indicated. For example, we were sold a bill of goods that General Motors was 'too big to fail' and that it would be disaster if we did not funnel mega billions of dollars into it to prevent bankruptcy. So we funneled the billions into it, bankruptcy was declared anyway, and the primary stockholders are now the U.S. government and the UAW meaning that any problems with this company will now be the responsibility of the tax payers.

And NONE of the problems that previously existed and put the company into jeopardy in the first place have been fixed.

We deserve better.

Better being what? Doing nothing meant thousands of jobs lost, more homes in default, more small and medium business failures.
Yet you suggest the problems need to be fixed. How?

Artificial fixes make make things look better for a short period, but sooner or later the inevitable must be faced. We cannot continue to spend more than we have without courting economic disaster that may not be so easily reversible. Far better to let unsustainable jobs, houses, etc. go naturally at the beginning than to throw good money after bad and wind up losing those jobs, houses, and more anyway.

 

[saveliberty]

What is funny is Maggie is now admitting our Famed Stimulus was really a bunch of Spending on TEMPORARY construction jobs, and Massive Bail outs to failing state Budgets.

Now as I have said in the past. This spending might have been needed. You might be able to justify it, but what you can not do, what you would be lying if you said is, that this was the most efficient way to stimulate the economy.

It was not.

Which is why now we have stagnate growth and almost NO jobs being added. Because you do not create growth and create jobs with Construction spending, and Bail outs for medicare budgets. Plain and simple.

And the sad fact is that 'stopping the bleeding' is only a temporary fix when major surgery is indicated. For example, we were sold a bill of goods that General Motors was 'too big to fail' and that it would be disaster if we did not funnel mega billions of dollars into it to prevent bankruptcy. So we funneled the billions into it, bankruptcy was declared anyway, and the primary stockholders are now the U.S. government and the UAW meaning that any problems with this company will now be the responsibility of the tax payers.

And NONE of the problems that previously existed and put the company into jeopardy in the first place have been fixed.

We deserve better.

So far as GM is concerned, I see a great number of changes and a company that can turn a profit with far fewer vehicles sold. Bankruptcy was the key and it did its job very well. Like life, it isn't how many times you get knocked down. its how many times you get back up. This was not a problem the government shol dhave been trying to fix. Hopefully by this time next year, all will be repaid and those idiots 0bama put in to help will be gone. Limiting us to the days supply we have is crazy. Low volume and low markup are a long term recipe for another disaster.

 

[Foxfyre]

What is funny is Maggie is now admitting our Famed Stimulus was really a bunch of Spending on TEMPORARY construction jobs, and Massive Bail outs to failing state Budgets.

Now as I have said in the past. This spending might have been needed. You might be able to justify it, but what you can not do, what you would be lying if you said is, that this was the most efficient way to stimulate the economy.

It was not.

Which is why now we have stagnate growth and almost NO jobs being added. Because you do not create growth and create jobs with Construction spending, and Bail outs for medicare budgets. Plain and simple.

And the sad fact is that 'stopping the bleeding' is only a temporary fix when major surgery is indicated. For example, we were sold a bill of goods that General Motors was 'too big to fail' and that it would be disaster if we did not funnel mega billions of dollars into it to prevent bankruptcy. So we funneled the billions into it, bankruptcy was declared anyway, and the primary stockholders are now the U.S. government and the UAW meaning that any problems with this company will now be the responsibility of the tax payers.

And NONE of the problems that previously existed and put the company into jeopardy in the first place have been fixed.

We deserve better.

So far as GM is concerned, I see a great number of changes and a company that can turn a profit with far fewer vehicles sold. Bankruptcy was the key and it did its job very well. Like life, it isn't how many times you get knocked down. its how many times you get back up. This was not a problem the government shol dhave been trying to fix. Hopefully by this time next year, all will be repaid and those idiots 0bama put in to help will be gone. Limiting us to the days supply we have is crazy. Low volume and low markup are a long term recipe for another disaster.

Do you really think that the Volt with a $40,000+ sticker price and a 40 mile range on an electric charge is a positive change? It will take a bit more digging by expert researchers to figure out what that project is costing the U.S. taxpayers, but you can bet we're helping finance a good portion if not all of it.

What changes have been made in basic management concept and the union entitlements and privileges that put the company into bankruptcy in the first place? With the union being a major stockholder, it doesn't look promising to me that this will take a highly beneficial turn either.

I will say they have improved their advertising campaign, but with the already so poisoned and the American public so negative re government and union ownership I think that may be too little too late. I, for instance, would not touch a GM product with a 10 foot pole right now.

I agree the government should have stayed out of it, but I'm not confident on any kind of useful fix and figure the taxpayer's investment will be wiped out in another bankruptcy on down the line.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong about that.

 

[saveliberty]

And the sad fact is that 'stopping the bleeding' is only a temporary fix when major surgery is indicated. For example, we were sold a bill of goods that General Motors was 'too big to fail' and that it would be disaster if we did not funnel mega billions of dollars into it to prevent bankruptcy. So we funneled the billions into it, bankruptcy was declared anyway, and the primary stockholders are now the U.S. government and the UAW meaning that any problems with this company will now be the responsibility of the tax payers.

And NONE of the problems that previously existed and put the company into jeopardy in the first place have been fixed.

We deserve better.

So far as GM is concerned, I see a great number of changes and a company that can turn a profit with far fewer vehicles sold. Bankruptcy was the key and it did its job very well. Like life, it isn't how many times you get knocked down. its how many times you get back up. This was not a problem the government shol dhave been trying to fix. Hopefully by this time next year, all will be repaid and those idiots 0bama put in to help will be gone. Limiting us to the days supply we have is crazy. Low volume and low markup are a long term recipe for another disaster.

Do you really think that the Volt with a $40,000+ sticker price and a 40 mile range on an electric charge is a positive change? It will take a bit more digging by expert researchers to figure out what that project is costing the U.S. taxpayers, but you can bet we're helping finance a good portion if not all of it.

What changes have been made in basic management concept and the union entitlements and privileges that put the company into bankruptcy in the first place? With the union being a major stockholder, it doesn't look promising to me that this will take a highly beneficial turn either.

I will say they have improved their advertising campaign, but with the already so poisoned and the American public so negative re government and union ownership I think that may be too little too late. I, for instance, would not touch a GM product with a 10 foot pole right now.

I agree the government should have stayed out of it, but I'm not confident on any kind of useful fix and figure the taxpayer's investment will be wiped out in another bankruptcy on down the line.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong about that.

New hires are at a much lower rate. Everyone's health insurance has more copays. Many plants have been closed and are no longer assests of GM. Buick has a huge market share in China and in fact, sells more there than here. The new Regal is so European, that it is currently made in Germany. Many buyouts of employees to reduce the labor costs. Yes, I'd say it is quite different.

As far as the Volt goes. It is meant to increase the fleet fuel economy ratings. That happens when it is produced, not sold. My guess is GM could care less if any of them sell. Electric cars are of little use in American society.

 

[KissMy]

 

[Foxfyre]

So far as GM is concerned, I see a great number of changes and a company that can turn a profit with far fewer vehicles sold. Bankruptcy was the key and it did its job very well. Like life, it isn't how many times you get knocked down. its how many times you get back up. This was not a problem the government shol dhave been trying to fix. Hopefully by this time next year, all will be repaid and those idiots 0bama put in to help will be gone. Limiting us to the days supply we have is crazy. Low volume and low markup are a long term recipe for another disaster.

Do you really think that the Volt with a $40,000+ sticker price and a 40 mile range on an electric charge is a positive change? It will take a bit more digging by expert researchers to figure out what that project is costing the U.S. taxpayers, but you can bet we're helping finance a good portion if not all of it.

What changes have been made in basic management concept and the union entitlements and privileges that put the company into bankruptcy in the first place? With the union being a major stockholder, it doesn't look promising to me that this will take a highly beneficial turn either.

I will say they have improved their advertising campaign, but with the already so poisoned and the American public so negative re government and union ownership I think that may be too little too late. I, for instance, would not touch a GM product with a 10 foot pole right now.

I agree the government should have stayed out of it, but I'm not confident on any kind of useful fix and figure the taxpayer's investment will be wiped out in another bankruptcy on down the line.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong about that.

New hires are at a much lower rate. Everyone's health insurance has more copays. Many plants have been closed and are no longer assests of GM. Buick has a huge market share in China and in fact, sells more there than here. The new Regal is so European, that it is currently made in Germany. Many buyouts of employees to reduce the labor costs. Yes, I'd say it is quite different.

As far as the Volt goes. It is meant to increase the fleet fuel economy ratings. That happens when it is produced, not sold. My guess is GM could care less if any of them sell. Electric cars are of little use in American society.

Maybe not but from what I've read, GM will build 10,000 of them in 2011 and 30,000 more in 2012. This will consume a couple of billion dollars and take up plant resources that could be utilitized to produce vehicles that people actually can use.

Nothing has been done to rein in GM's union. Nothing has been done to rein in corporate entitlements that are what put GM in the ditch in the first place. And with the union being the primary stockholder, that probably isn't going to happen either. Lower starting salaries and a copay on the health insurance helps of course, but it is not a fix.

Had GM been allowed to 'fail', declare a real bankruptcy and start over with a real reorganization that eliminates most of the unsustainable issues that currently exist, perhaps dump the union altogether and adopt say a Toyota model, then I would be cheering and waving victory flags.

As it is I am pretty pessimistic about the probable outcome and resentful that it will continue to be an artificial drain on the national economy.

 

[MaggieMae]

"Obama allowing the Bush Tax cuts to expire will cause these small businesses to pay income taxes at higher rates than do Mega Corps. The highest Corporate tax rate is 35%. Small businesses will pay 39.6% plus an additional 3.8% ObamaCare surcharge once that kicks in....."

How about when the Cap and tax kicks in and businesses will be paying more for energy.....Don't you just love the dems plan to destroy whatever companies may be left.

Are you aware of any business that doesn't take any deductions? Stop just presuming that the base rate is what they actually pay. It doesn't take a mental giant to know that.

Small Business Tax Deductions | Business.gov

Also, once again, cap and trade was REMOVED from the energy bill last week. So you needn't lose anymore sleep over that.

 

[MaggieMae]

The government created projects, not jobs. The Census is a project. Road construction is a project. Certainly not a long term job. Small businesses don't create jobs unless uncertainty in the market is minimized. Consumers are not confident, banks don't loan much and government policy on health care and taxes looks troublesome.

Now the dimwit Obama comes along and preaches wine and roses, when we all know better. The minions run about blaming every one but the one who should have been leading us the last year and a half.

Once again, after all this time, I still hear no suggestions as to what you (collectively) think he should have done. "Let the market take care of itself"??? Sure, that's what took us into this disastrous economy in the first place.