I Really Don't Understand The Left

[kaz]

Trump tried to invalidate 81 million votes, but it was far fewer people than that. Especially the living ones

Poor Arlette needs a hug ...

 

[westwall]

You can't reason with a cult. They aren't capable of self-thought. They are non-player characters.

Hit and run trolling.

How typical.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Which, as anyone with even a basic understanding of economics would clearly know, will only make the problem worse, not better.

But at least you can self-righteously claim credit for wanting to “do something”, even if what you want to do proves harmful rather than helpful.

Putting people to work in the public sector to build the nation's infrastructure and price controls is proven to always work, when done correctly. It worked in Germany in the 1930s after its economy collapsed in the 1920s, it worked here during WW2, and there was plenty of government involvement in the economy after the American Revolutionary War in the late 1700s and early 19th century. Our country would've been stillborn economically and unable to compete with Europe, if not for Uncle Sam.

After WW2 It wasn't the "invisible hand" of the "free market" that got Western Europe and Japan back on its feet economically, but heavy government intervention. South Korea also had plenty of government involvement in the economy to become what it is today.

China now has the second-largest economy in the world, and it's America's top competitor. It didn't get to where it is today economically through laissez-faire capitalism. There's PLENTY of government involvement in the Chinese economy.

​

A nation that tried to develop its economy strictly with the "invisible hand" of the "free market", was Russia after the demise of the USSR. They went through what is called "shock therapy" (The immediate implementation of laissez-faire capitalism). Until Putin arrived in 2000, post-Soviet Russia was getting raped economically by a cabal of local and foreign billionaires and politicians. They were being looted by the "free market" until Putin arrived and said "NO MORE".

The major centers of economic power, namely the industries that are vital to Russia's economy (finance, energy, mining..etc.), were nationalized. Now practically all of those heavy industries are at least 40% in the hands of the government (state-owned).

• 
  Aeroflot (Airline) - 51.173% ownership
• All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company (Broadcasting) - State ownership
• Almaz-Antey (Aerospace & Defense) - 100% ownership
• ALROSA (Mining) - 43.9256% ownership
• Atomflot (Shipping) - State ownership
• AvtoVAZ (Automotive) - 100% ownership
• FGC UES (Energy) - 75% ownership
• Gazprom (Oil and Gas) - 50.23% ownership
• Inter RAO (Electricity) - State ownership
• Kamaz (Automotive) - State ownership
• Mining and Chemical Combine (Mining) - State ownership
• Mosenergo (Electricity) - State ownership
• Novorossiysk Commercial Sea Port (Shipping) - 20.0001% ownership
• Rosatom (Nuclear Energy) - 100% ownership
• Roscosmos (Space) - 100% ownership
• Rosneft (Oil and Gas) - 50% ownership
• Rosselkhozbank (Banking) - 71.9873% ownership
• Rosseti (Electric Power) - 88% ownership
• Rostec (Mixed) - 100% ownership
• Rostelecom (Telecommunications) - 56.8% ownership
• RusHydro (Electric Utility) - 60.4% ownership
• Rusnano (Nanotechnology) - 100% ownership
• Russian Agricultural Bank (Infrastructure) - 72.4% ownership
• Russian Highways (Infrastructure) - 100% ownership
• Russian Post (Letter Post) - 100% ownership
• Russian Railways (Infrastructure) - 100% ownership
• Sberbank of Russia (Banking) - 51% ownership
• Sevmash (Shipbuilding) - 48.4966% ownership
• Sovcomflot (Shipping) - 100% ownership
• Tactical Missiles Corporation (Defense) - 100% ownership
• Transneft (Oil and Gas) - 100% ownership
• United Aircraft Corporation (Aerospace) - 91.11514696% ownership
• United Grain Company (Trading) - 50% ownership
• United Shipbuilding Corporation (Shipbuilding) - 100% ownership
• Uralvagonzavod (Defense) - 100% ownership
• Vnesheconombank (Financial Services) - 100% ownership
• VTB Bank (Banking) - 60.9% ownership.

What's the result of the above government involvement in the Russian economy? This:

In 1998, Russia was experiencing the aftermath of the financial crisis that occurred in August of that year. This crisis led to a significant devaluation of the ruble and a default on domestic debt. The economic turmoil of this period did prompt a reevaluation of the post-Soviet privatization policies that had, to some extent, facilitated the rise of oligarchs and often lacked transparency and fairness. While there wasn't an immediate and explicit move toward nationalizing industries in 1998, the crisis and its aftermath did lead to increased state involvement, which led to increased confidence in the market, hence GDP improved.

When Putin took office, he nationalized most of the major industries in the country, and the graph speaks for itself. Russia's GDP skyrocketed and it's now, despite the American/EU sanctions, continuing to improve. So your assertion that government involvement in the economy undermines it, is laughable, if not pathetic. You're delusional. It's you who doesn't have a clue about real-world economics, thinking that the "invisible hand", the irrational, chaos of the market is enough to grow and run a nation's economy.

Putin is a staunch Russian nationalist and patriot, hence the economy must serve the Russian people. The market is centered, not on the private pursuit of profits, but on serving the nation. What's best in the long-term for Russia (The Russian people). If we truly love America, that's how we should think concerning our market economy. What's best for the American public, not what is best for a few greedy billionaires, who don't give a shit about America. The wealthy elites are internationalists, their allegiance is to their pocketbooks. They will hop on their private jets and mega-yachts and leave to their private Islands or Singapore.

​

 

[Markle]

What Trump has done for the working-class is superficial. He's against the minimum wage or raising it to a living wage. He's against rent controls. He's against forgiving the student debt of tens of millions of our youth who are entering the workforce and need all of the help they can get (The wealthiest people in our society often get bailed out by Uncle Sam, why can't the US Gov, forgive the student-debt of our sons and daughters?).

What a screed of malarkey. Those are all great reasons that President Trump was such a great president.

Show us where the government bails out millions of our wealthiest people.

Why does anyone merit a living wage if they have minimum skills, work ethic, and education?

Why should our sons and daughters who are working as plumbers, electricians, police officers, firemen, etc., pay for someone who spent eight or nine years in college for a degree in ancient musical instruments?

 

[Markle]

More, there are several measures our government can take to lower inflation including price controls.

 

[TruthNotBS]

What a screed of malarkey. Those are all great reasons that President Trump was such a great president.

Show us where the government bails out millions of our wealthiest people.

Why does anyone merit a living wage if they have minimum skills, work ethic, and education?

Why should our sons and daughters who are working as plumbers, electricians, police officers, firemen, etc., pay for someone who spent eight or nine years in college for a degree in ancient musical instruments?

I'll first answer your question about the rich being bailed out (socialism for the wealthy):

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE.	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,388,954,161	952
2	Intel	$8,355,503,416	127
3	Ford Motor	$7,718,954,966	684
4	General Motors	$7,494,705,750	783
5	Micron Technology	$6,786,681,915	19
6	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
7	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
8	Amazon.com	$5,532,086,473	433
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
11	Volkswagen	$3,880,517,317	209
12	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
13	NRG Energy	$3,405,383,876	264
14	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Nucor	$2,518,064,340	171
20	Walt Disney	$2,483,328,762	255
21	SkyWest	$2,418,120,282	981
22	Iberdrola	$2,380,537,196	109
23	Toyota	$2,304,226,689	237
24	Shell PLC	$2,210,816,246	131
25	Samsung	$2,178,196,443	83
26	Oracle	$2,167,890,528	90
27	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
28	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
29	Hyundai Motor	$2,048,610,159	17
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,010,825,527	124
31	Brookfield Asset Management	$1,968,826,437	231
32	Exxon Mobil	$1,906,554,975	227
33	Paramount Global	$1,845,796,313	332
34	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
35	Apple Inc.	$1,833,837,442	61
36	Comcast	$1,827,808,120	390
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,821,579,761	1,190
38	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
39	General Electric	$1,737,066,990	994
40	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,726,928,435	87
41	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
42	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
43	Energy Transfer	$1,680,763,748	155
44	JPMorgan Chase	$1,663,593,063	1,147
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,417,759	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,560,125,015	63
48	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,532,854,012	3
49	IBM Corp.	$1,495,438,545	367
50	General Atomics	$1,476,687,046	111
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
54	Microsoft	$1,363,926,937	111
55	Lockheed Martin	$1,334,594,360	319
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,275,514,883	284
58	Meta Platforms Inc.	$1,275,451,772	60
59	Corning Inc.	$1,262,885,869	389
60	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
61	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
62	RTX Corporation	$1,168,240,858	779
63	Jefferies Financial Group	$1,144,919,260	17
64	SK Holdings	$1,081,550,283	9
65	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
66	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
67	AES Corp.	$1,030,194,632	132
68	Hyannis Air Service Inc.	$1,018,366,272	417
69	Abengoa	$988,188,652	43
70	Exelon	$982,955,949	57
71	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
72	Pyramid Companies	$966,050,097	91
73	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
74	Apollo Global Management	$896,345,186	586
75	LG	$881,567,511	87
76	Delta Air Lines	$878,093,932	17
77	Centene	$877,508,496	56
78	Bayer	$850,128,391	212
79	Honda	$849,832,301	92
80	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
81	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
82	SunEdison	$813,584,873	113
83	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
84	E.ON	$782,609,880	38
85	Archer Daniels Midland	$771,819,773	1,116
86	EDF-Electricite de France	$766,205,550	36
87	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$764,594,690	217
88	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
89	Bank of America	$744,566,157	929
90	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
91	Related Companies	$687,200,000	1
92	Koch Industries	$673,998,188	495
93	Caithness Energy	$670,379,738	29
94	Wells Fargo	$653,074,103	540
95	Entergy	$638,345,893	234
96	FedEx	$621,948,452	624
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy

Subsidy Tracker

Subsidy Tracker, produced by the Corporate Research Project of Good Jobs First, is a wide-ranging database on misconduct by large and small corporations throughout the United States.

subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org

Bailouts:

​

The state shouldn't have to subsidize your workforce. If you start a business and need to hire other human beings to work your business full-time, you must pay them a living wage. I'm all for cutting taxes for employers and providing incentives and perks, provided they take care of their workers. The working class needs affordable housing, education (job training), healthcare..etc. At the moment, small businesses need to spend hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars providing healthcare benefits to their employees. If we had universal Medicare or Medicaid for everyone, that would lift the burden off of small businesses, allowing them to further expand.

When I was in high school back in the 1980s, we had a machine shop class, woodworking, and a few other trades we could learn. There were several public high schools in Miami, Dade, that any student could apply for and attend that were 100% focused on helping students acquire a trade. They had auto mechanics, autobody repair, machining, construction, welding..etc. Almost all of those public "polytech" high schools are gone. They've closed. They don't have machine shops in public high schools anymore, they have LGBT+ arts and crafts (learn how to make a rainbow banner that glows in the dark).

 

[TruthNotBS]

Yep, works like a charm, when it's done right.

I CAN CHARGE WHATEVER I WANT! IT'S MY PROPERTY! ​

No, you can't. There are rent controls. Why? Workers need affordable housing. People need a roof over their heads and the closer they live to their workplace the better. If they can live in the city near the restaurant where they work, that's good for the workers and the owner of the restaurant. Good for everyone. Gross inequality, high cost of living, stagnant wages, expensive education and technical training..etc, undermines the economy. It's not all about you, the market must serve the public good.

 

[TNHarley]

Leftism isnt about logic or reasoning. It is about control.
It doesnt have to make sense.

 

[TNHarley]

Yep, works like a charm, when it's done right.

I CAN CHARGE WHATEVER I WANT! IT'S MY PROPERTY! ​

No, you can't. There are rent controls. Why? Workers need affordable housing. People need a roof over their heads and the closer they live to their workplace the better. If they can live in the city near the restaurant where they work, that's good for the workers and the owner of the restaurant. Good for everyone. Gross inequality, high cost of living, stagnant wages, expensive education and technical training..etc, undermines the economy. It's not all about you, the market must serve the public good.

Its like you authoritarians try to take away incentive for the market.
Its like you want the govt to control everything.
Oh wait, you do. Despite it being totally corrupt.
Blows my mind how little you people actually think.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Leftism isnt about logic or reasoning. It is about control.
It doesnt have to make sense.

I'm not a leftist, I'm a right-wing nationalist, national socialist. Unlike Marxist socialism, we believe in markets, but the market has to serve the long-term interests of the nation, rather than private interests. The major centers of economic power, namely the industries that are vital to our nation's infrastructure and national security, are always in the hands of the state.

The private sector provides all of the consumer goods and services that people need and want, hence there's a place for the pursuit of profits. Making money, personal financial prosperity, and upward mobility are actually more likely and secure within a nationalist socialist economy than under laissez-faire, neo-liberal capitalism. Nationalist market socialism has proven itself the most effective economic model, much more viable than the type of capitalism we've had in America since the early 1980s.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Its like you authoritarians try to take away incentive for the market.
Its like you want the govt to control everything.
Oh wait, you do. Despite it being totally corrupt.
Blows my mind how little you people actually think.

You're exaggerating, because obviously anyone that is actually thinking can see I don't want the government to CONTROL EVERYTHING. I believe the government must control certain things, to allow capitalism to function properly, in the service of the nation. I can also be disingenuous and exaggerate asserting that you want privately owned for-profit companies to CONTROL EVERYTHING. Most Americans spend most of their waking hours in the absolute dictatorship of their nine-to-five jobs. Most of our lives are spent in authoritarian environments. At least the government holds elections, when was the last election you participated in at your workplace? Never?

You replace a government that holds elections with a privately owned company (fiefdom) that doesn't. Hmm.

 

[TNHarley]

I'm not a leftist, I'm a right-wing nationalist, national socialist. Unlike Marxist socialism, we believe in markets, but the market has to serve the long-term interests of the nation, rather than private interests. The major centers of economic power, namely the industries that are vital to our nation's infrastructure and national security, are always in the hands of the state.

The private sector provides all of the consumer goods and services that people need and want, hence there's a place for the pursuit of profits. Making money, personal financial prosperity, and upward mobility are actually more likely and secure within a nationalist socialist economy than under laissez-faire, neo-liberal capitalism. Nationalist market socialism has proven itself the most effective economic model, much more viable than the type of capitalism we've had in America since the early 1980s.

IE leftist

 

[TNHarley]

You're exaggerating, because obviously anyone that is actually thinking can see I don't want the government to CONTROL EVERYTHING. I believe the government must control certain things, to allow capitalism to function properly, in the service of the nation. I can also be disingenuous and exaggerate asserting that you want privately owned for-profit companies to CONTROL EVERYTHING. Most Americans spend most of their waking hours in the absolute dictatorship of their nine-to-five jobs. Most of our lives are spent in authoritarian environments. At least the government holds elections, when was the last election you participated in at your workplace? Never?

You replace a government that holds elections with a privately owned company (fiefdom) that doesn't. Hmm.

Govt must control the economy for capitalism to work... Thats not capitalism.
They agree to those terms. If they agree to a "dictatorship" or "authoritarian" (obviously hyperbole) job, then thats their fault.

 

[TruthNotBS]

IE leftist

Am I like supposed to guess what your acronyms mean? Speak clearly. I'm a right-wing, national socialist (non-Marxist). Social conservative, nationalist socialism. Proven for the last 240 years, as the most effective economic model. The government is in partnership with the private sector, or a "mixed economy" that serves the interests of the nation. Industries that are vital to our national infrastructure are owned by the state and the private sector runs the consumer goods market. That's how nations prosper and become powerful.

 

[TNHarley]

Am I like supposed to guess what your acronyms mean? Speak clearly. I'm a right-wing, national socialist (non-Marxist). Social conservative, nationalist socialism. Proven for the last 240 years, as the most effective economic model. The government is in partnership with the private sector, or a "mixed economy" that serves the interests of the nation. Industries that are vital to our national infrastructure are owned by the state and the private sector runs the consumer goods market. That's how nations prosper and become powerful.

You are a statist. That is leftism.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Govt must control the economy for capitalism to work... Thats not capitalism.
They agree to those terms. If they agree to a "dictatorship" or "authoritarian" (obviously hyperbole) job, then thats their fault.

I'm not a capitalist. Markets and private property predate capitalism. I'm for markets, not capitalism. Capitalism is an economy that prioritizes private profits, often at the expense of the public good. The bottom line of capitalism is the private acquisition of capital, rather than the sustainable, long-term security and empowerment of the nation.

 

[TruthNotBS]

You are a statist. That is leftism.

Fascists or national socialists, are also statists, so you're obviously confused. Statism can be leftist/Marxist or right-wing fascist.

 

[citygator]

I'm not a capitalist. Markets and private property predate capitalism. I'm for markets, not capitalism. Capitalism is an economy that prioritizes private profits, often at the expense of the public good. The bottom line of capitalism is the private acquisition of capital, rather than the sustainable, long-term security and empowerment of the nation.

You need a cool catchy name for your leaning.

 

[TNHarley]

I'm not a capitalist. Markets and private property predate capitalism. I'm for markets, not capitalism. Capitalism is an economy that prioritizes private profits, often at the expense of the public good. The bottom line of capitalism is the private acquisition of capital, rather than the sustainable, long-term security and empowerment of the nation.

I certainly didnt call you a capitalist. I was laughing at you for raping the English language.

 

[TNHarley]

Fascists or national socialists, are also statists, so you're obviously confused. Statism can be leftist/Marxist or right-wing fascist.

Thats grade school BS.