I will tell you why I am bored.

[Bonzi]

Right. That is all that matters, except to keep reminding Catholics they are serving a false god with all their heretical beliefs and rituals.

>>I'm with you there brother.. <high five> preaching to the choir....<<

Yes, you are so confident Catholicism is a false religion, yet I notice you did not dare refute all the Bible passages I posted that speak of purgatory. Big surprise.

Hmmmm I missed those (seriously) - I'll check them out....

 

[Bonzi]

Right. That is all that matters, except to keep reminding Catholics they are serving a false god with all their heretical beliefs and rituals.

>>I'm with you there brother.. <high five> preaching to the choir....<<

Yes, you are so confident Catholicism is a false religion, yet I notice you did not dare refute all the Bible passages I posted that speak of purgatory. Big surprise.

I'm saying Catholics teach many false doctrines, and purgatory is one of them.
Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8 and Isaiah 53:5) declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (see 1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

 

[turzovka]

It is absolutely pointless to debate religion with a foaming at the mouth zealot.
Just sayin'.

You need not pretend with an excuse for not partaking. I am not hurt, just ignore me.

But you asked if I were 13, yet you are the one who said my post is too long for your attention span.

Or boring. Sounds like you are the one incapable of intelligent discourse, and yet, hang around these boards in search of a cheap shot, or a cheap laugh. Some of us are not here for the entertainment angle.

 

[zaangalewa]

The pope,,,Holy poop!

Im an open minded agnostic, very open to any "revealing" going on but unfortunately there is nothing innate about natural world beauty that compels my brain to assign it the attribute: revelation from god.

My bar for evidence is unfortunately higher than arbitrarily assigning credit like that.

And thats with a COMPLETE open mind.

If you feel, perceive or think then you are doing this with electrochemical impulses on the surface of skins within your body. So what do you call "complete open mind"?

 

[zaangalewa]

Most (like me) will be purified in purgatory because of our pride or selfishness or laziness or lack of charity.

After that long pitiful tirade against non Catholics I'm sure you are ready to offer the biblical support for that.

Why should I?
This world operates on sound bites.
Most are not interested in taking the time to read at length why they might be wrong.

In other words you can't quote any biblical references about Pergatory so the blame clearly falls on the shoulders of those that don't believe.

You Catholics are so full of shit.

So you don't live in fear of hell or purgatory. Is this a reason too for the torture camps of the USA?

 

[zaangalewa]

In other words you can't quote any biblical references about Pergatory so the blame clearly falls on the shoulders of those that don't believe.

You Catholics are so full of shit.

So says you. Yet, you would not even take the time to read it if I did.

More proof that it's my fault.

Fine, then. You call my bluff and I will call yours.

See how many will care.

You're badly confused. You can't back up any biblical support for a Pergatory. I knew you couldn't, it was hardly a bluff. The Catholics pulled it out of their ass, like most stuff.

I guess we can make an exception and let your ass go to hell.

 

[zaangalewa]

Iceweasel is right. There is no biblical support for Pergatory.
None.

If god should really be imprisoned in your way to believe in him, then you don't have any chance not to go to hell - if you ever made anything wrong in your life - like for example not to love your enemies - or even much more worse: Catholics.

Why exactly do you think no one needs a clean, pure soul who likes to enter heaven? Why do you think god gave not everyone a chance here in our life on earth and even after our death on a place besides hell - why not a last second chance in a place we call "purgatory"?
Oh by the way: I accept only the way to think "everything is always right and okay - except it is definetelly wrong or bad". Sins and crimes are for example definetelly wrong - but "nothing written about in the bible" is not any argument at all. This would deny the work of the Holy Spirit in the world.

Your problem is perhaps comparable with the problem of members of terrororganisations like the IS (Islamic state). They are denying the Islam by denying the traditions of the Islam - and you are denying the traditions of the christian churches. By denying the traditions your are denying maybe the faith itselve. That's why you replace faith with a kind of ideological fanatism.



Kommt, ihr angefochtnen Sünder,
Eilt und lauft, ihr Adamskinder,
Euer Heiland ruft und schreit!
Kommet, ihr verirrten Schafe,
Stehet auf vom Sündenschlafe,
Denn itzt ist die Gnadenzeit!

 

[Iceweasel]

So you don't live in fear of hell or purgatory. Is this a reason too for the torture camps of the USA?

What the hell are you babbling about?

I guess we can make an exception and let your ass go to hell.

I guess you can go suck a turd.

 

[Iceweasel]

Iceweasel is right. There is no biblical support for Pergatory.
None.

If god should really be imprisoned in your way to believe in him, then you don't have any chance not to go to hell - if you ever made anything wrong in your life - like for example not to love your enemies - or much more worse: Catholics.

Why exactly do you think no one needs a clean, pure soul who likes to enter heaven? Why do you think god gave not everyone a chance here in our life on earth and even after our death on a place besides hell - why not a last second chance in a place we call "purgatory"?

No one needs to believe in ancient myths, yet they do. It brings them an air of superiority and comfort. People are weird.

 

[turzovka]

No one needs to believe in ancient myths, yet they do. It brings them an air of superiority and comfort. People are weird.

And you using the word "ancient" provides for you this false comfort. As though you think modern, self-absorbed, hedonistic man has demonstrated a higher degree of wisdom and honor.

And you calling it a "myth" does nothing but keep you on trial, not the "myth."

 

[zaangalewa]

Consequently, I wonder why atheists who insist on “evidence for the existence of God” don't take time to study the Shroud of Turin

Because that is the same as using the Bible as "evidence."

That makes zero sense. With the Shroud we are dealing with scientific FACTS. Facts science cannot account for.

I don't understand this argument. Science is not in conflict with the christian religion. No one has good explanations for the existance of the shroud of Turin. It exists because the people always thought it is a worthful object and took care. And when the people finally decided it's good to put it in the background and to forget this old stuff it were scientists who said: "It's very strange what we can see there." I agree that no one needs the shroud of Turin to believe in god. But on the other side it's a fascinating object where we don't have good explanations for what we see there and why.

 

[Iceweasel]

No one needs to believe in ancient myths, yet they do. It brings them an air of superiority and comfort. People are weird.

And you using the word "ancient" provides for you this false comfort. As though you think modern, self-absorbed, hedonistic man has demonstrated a higher degree of wisdom and honor.

And you calling it a "myth" does nothing but keep you on trial, not the "myth."

2,000 years ago is ancient. That's the Bronze Age. There's a big world in between Bronze Age mythers and hedonism. Believing it's an either or scenario illustrates your depth of thought.

 

[zaangalewa]

No one needs to believe in ancient myths, yet they do. It brings them an air of superiority and comfort. People are weird.

And you using the word "ancient" provides for you this false comfort. As though you think modern, self-absorbed, hedonistic man has demonstrated a higher degree of wisdom and honor.

And you calling it a "myth" does nothing but keep you on trial, not the "myth."

2,000 years ago is ancient. That's the Bronze Age. There's a big world in between Bronze Age mythers and hedonism. Believing it's an either or scenario illustrates your depth of thought.

Bronze age is about 2200 BC - 800 BC. We are only a little later in time - that's all. If we deny our traditions then we have to start again. We are like senile old men if we don't remember any longer our own cultural pasts, our roots. Your enemy seems to be your own shadow.

 

[turzovka]

I don't understand this argument. Science is not in conflict with the christian religion. No one has good explanations for the existance of the shroud of Turin. It exists because the people always thought it is a worthful object and took care. And when the people finally decided it's good to put it in the background and to forget this old stuff it were scientists who said: "It's very strange what we can see there." I agree that no one needs the shroud of Turin to believe in god. But on the other side it's a fascinating object where we don't have good explanations for what we see there and why.

Science is not in conflict with the Christian religion, I did not mean to imply that if I did? But many scientists are. When cornered, so often they respond “science is not in the business of proving the mystical or relying on it.” However, it seems they are often in the business of trying to disprove it.

But to the Shroud in particular. It is the discoveries of scientific investigation that leads one to almost obvious conclusions. The dubious carbon dating aside, they have discovered qualities of the image on that cloth that cannot be explained by natural occurrences, nor can they be explained by human hands. So given all else we know about God through history, evidence and revelation, the Shroud of Turin almost assuredly speaks of the crucifixion of our Lord. It is worth noting that the Catholic Church has never issued a decision on the Shroud. They are content to let it speak for itself however the believer or unbeliever chooses to interpret the facts unveiled.

 

[Iceweasel]

No one needs to believe in ancient myths, yet they do. It brings them an air of superiority and comfort. People are weird.

And you using the word "ancient" provides for you this false comfort. As though you think modern, self-absorbed, hedonistic man has demonstrated a higher degree of wisdom and honor.

And you calling it a "myth" does nothing but keep you on trial, not the "myth."

2,000 years ago is ancient. That's the Bronze Age. There's a big world in between Bronze Age mythers and hedonism. Believing it's an either or scenario illustrates your depth of thought.

Bronze age is about 2200 BC - 800 BC. We are only a little later in time - that's all. If we deny our traditions then we have to start again. We are like senile old men if we don't remeber any longer our own cultural pasts, our roots. Your enemy seems to be your own shadow.

We're just a little later along than 800BC? My enemy is my shadow because I'm unwilling to suspend any form of rational thought in favor of traditions from a state formed religion? No thanks. Your enemy is thought.

 

[zaangalewa]

I don't understand this argument. Science is not in conflict with the christian religion. No one has good explanations for the existance of the shroud of Turin. It exists because the people always thought it is a worthful object and took care. And when the people finally decided it's good to put it in the background and to forget this old stuff it were scientists who said: "It's very strange what we can see there." I agree that no one needs the shroud of Turin to believe in god. But on the other side it's a fascinating object where we don't have good explanations for what we see there and why.

Science is not in conflict with the Christian religion, I did not mean to imply that if I did? But many scientists are.

No one says that scientists are not able to be idiots. Indeed I would say I met a lot of idiots coming from universities. But your argument here has nothing to do with the christian religion or would you say it is a sin to be a Christian because Chistians (like everyone else) are sinners? Surely not. If a baker tells you it's wrong to believe in god because he never saw god in his bread then you will be amused. If a scientists says he found no god in your brain then may be you will be upset. Why? What do you think will happen if someone really finds god as an object of this world here? - Or what will happen if god comes on his own free will to the people - for example in swaddling cloth in a manger? What will be his throne?

When cornered, so often they respond “science is not in the business of proving the mystical or relying on it.”

Science is the art to build good question with a provable character. So science is for example able to measure the IQ of someone - and science is able to say something about lots of facts - but science is not able to make someone to a wise man. On the other hand: wise men are often interested in the result of science too, because there are many perceptions of the truth but there's only one common truth.

However, it seems they are often in the business of trying to disprove it.

But to the Shroud in particular. It is the discoveries of scientific investigation that leads one to almost obvious conclusions. The dubious carbon dating aside, they have discovered qualities of the image on that cloth that cannot be explained by natural occurrences, nor can they be explained by human hands. So given all else we know about God through history, evidence and revelation, the Shroud of Turin almost assuredly speaks of the crucifixion of our Lord. It is worth noting that the Catholic Church has never issued a decision on the Shroud. They are content to let it speak for itself however the believer or unbeliever chooses to interpret the facts unveiled.

As a Catholic I would say: If the shroud helps someone to believe in god - why not? I personally don't think it shows Jesus Christ - but maybe I'm wrong. I think everything is okay what helps someone to find a good way. Not every way is my way - but in the end every help comes from god. The strange thing: Everyone has a shroud but no one knows. For sure a scientist is in case of the own shroud not in a privileged position.

 

[turzovka]

No one says that scientists are not able to be idiots. Indeed I would say I met a lot of idiots coming from universities. But your argument here has nothing to do with the christian religion or would you say it is a sin to be a Christian because Chistians (like everyone else) are sinners? Surely not. If a baker tells you it's wrong to believe in god because he never saw god in his bread then you will be amused. If a scientists says he found no god in your brain then may be you will be upset. Why? What do you think will happen if someone really finds god as an object of this world here? - Or what will happen if god comes on his own free will to the people - for example in swaddling cloth in a manger? What will be his throne?

Science is the art to build good question with a provable character. So science is for example able to measure the IQ of someone - and science is able to say something about lots of facts - but science is not able to make someone to a wise man. On the other hand: wise men are often interested in the result of science too, because there are many perceptions of the truth but there's only one common truth.

As a Catholic I would say: If the shroud helps someone to believe in god - why not? I personally don't think it shows Jesus Christ - but maybe I'm wrong. I think everything is okay what helps someone to find a good way. Not every way is my way - but in the end every help comes from god. The strange thing: Everyone has a shroud but no one knows. For sure a scientist is in case of the own shroud not in a privileged position.

I am not disagreeing with you in that there are many various ways or situations that some may come to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. There are also many ways to serve God, not just how the “puritans” demand.

But as for me --- I have thoroughly examined the facts and events at Fatima, Lourdes, Zeitoun, Egypt, Akita, Japan, La Salette, et al. As well as the Shroud of Turin. I am convinced that God has given us these manifestations as signs of hope for the faithful as well as cause for discernment for the doubters. I do not see these as some cheap trick by God or some less than dignified way of teaching the gospel. The Catholic Church is very clear on manifestations and apparitions. They have approved less than 10 in all of history as “worthy of belief.” In other words, there is nothing that contradicts or denies the gospels and the dogmas or doctrines of the Church. Therefore, they allow Catholics to pray at these shrines and hold them as truth. But they also are quick to add we are not required to accept them or give them any heed if we so choose. The Church has said all public revelation has ended with the death of the last apostle. What we have had since the Church has deemed to be private revelation which is not indispensable or as guarded as inspired Scripture or Church dogma. I am fine with all that.

 

[Iceweasel]

In other words the church took a vote on it. You see, if they had science to rely on there would be no need. Believe what you want but when zealots try to humiliate those unwilling to suspend thinking in favor of parlor tricks they deserve the scorn and ridicule they get.

 

[turzovka]

In other words the church took a vote on it.

Yes, the very same way the early Church councils decided from hundreds of books which were those divinely inspired and to be included in Scripture. Their faith assured them the Holy Spirit was guiding them in their judgments just as Jesus said He would.

But why you are so distraught because God has chosen to allow signs and wonders for the generations that followed to bolster their faith. Why? Must God do as you demand or as you interpret what limits are to be placed upon Him? In Matthew 16 Jesus gave His Church the “keys of the kingdom” and the authority to rule. “Whatsoever you hold bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven.” Not only given the authority to rule, but given the obligation to rule and be the preserver of truth. That upsets you. So when some rather obvious supernatural manifestation occurs --- like at Fatima --- the Church is mandated to investigate and offer some authoritative ruling. They do not like doing this and avoid it as much as possible, but sometimes they must.

You see, if they had science to rely on there would be no need. Believe what you want but when zealots try to humiliate those unwilling to suspend thinking in favor of parlor tricks they deserve the scorn and ridicule they get.

You can play the tough guy by throwing out your cherished phrases like “suspend thinking” and “parlor tricks” but you fool no one. You so not want a miracle to be demonstrated from God you have to pretend it has no veracity. Yet when science investigates these more renowned ones, they uncover distressing realities, unexplainable ones in the natural. Parlor tricks?... sure thing.

 

[hobelim]

. So when some rather obvious supernatural manifestation occurs --- like at Fatima --- the Church is mandated to investigate and offer some authoritative ruling.

Fatima schmatima.

The sun is fixed in its place and the earth in its orbit. If 50 billion eye witnesses 'saw' the sun dancing in the sky and zooming in and out from the earth the only possible explanation is that 50 billion people desperate for a 'miracle' hallucinated during some religiously inspired mass hysteria.

You might not know this but some of you religious people can be nuckin futz.