Idaho toddler shoots mother dead in Walmart store.

[Dana7360]

I have no problem with them selling the gun...just having politicians mandating that that will be the only technology for guns allowed to be sold....don't you agree.....? You say you believe in the free market...yes? So he should sell his gun alongside all the other guns and see who buys what....right? Or do you think that politicians should say only smart guns can be sold?

That's what the law says. For the first three years it's sold right next to other guns. If the people buy that gun and show that they want that gun, then the law goes into effect. If the people don't want that gun and don't buy it, it will come off the shelves of the stores and that law in New Jersey will never go into effect.

Do I believe that all guns should be smart guns? I see the benefits of it and I can see the drawbacks. However, I don't live in New Jersey and I don't believe I have any right to prevent the people of that state from implementing a law they want. If they didn't want that law, they would have voted out the politicians who passed it and elected ones who would repeal it. The people of New Jersey didn't do that.

I believe that people in a completely different state have no right to tell another state what they can or can't do. A smart gun is perfectly legal and Americans have the right under the second amendment to own and sell one. It's the gun nuts who believe they have the right to decided what guns can be owned and sold in this situation.

Which makes them no better than those who want to outlaw guns in my opinion.

 

[2aguy]

But you don't know what you're talking about so....

The "smart" gun was "attacked" by the NRA as legislation. They don't care if someone makes a gun virtually inoperable with safety devices. It's your problem. They will point out the folly, and they should. What if a spouse or friend needs it in a moment's notice? Even IF they got the technology down, which they haven't. It's still a liberal's wet dream.

And WA state voters didn't know what was in the law, as you've demonstrated before. The libs have the stupid vote locked up.

I wasn't talking about legislation. I was talking about a dealer who advertised that he was going to sell smart guns.

When he did that gun nuts and people from the nra attacked him. He got death threats so he backed down and didn't sell the gun.

Death threats stop gun store from selling 'smart' gun. Why? - CSMonitor.com

This is from the article link above:

But the NRA and many gun owners say it’s a government Trojan horse intended to open the door for laws that will mandate “smart” technology in new guns in order to identify gun owners – a notion that’s widely seen by gun owners as a threat to Second Amendment rights. When Mr. Raymond said he’d sell the Armatix, he was deluged with complaints and threats against his life, even the life of his dog. Before relenting on Thursday, Raymond lashed out against his critics in a YouTube video.

Gun Seller Backs Down on Smart Gun Plans After Threats
This is from the article link above:

The NRA recently said in a blog post that the guns have the potential "to mesh with the anti-gunner's agenda, opening the door to a ban on all guns that do not possess the government-required technology,"

So the gun nuts and the nra attacked this man for trying to sell a legal gun. They actually violated the second amendment rights of that gun dealer and anyone who wants to buy that gun.

It looks like gun nuts and the nra are going to do anything they can to prevent any reasonable safety measures and they believe they have the right to tell everyone what gun they can own or sell.

Do you know why they didn't like him and his product....because in New Jersey...once a so called smart gun is created, they have a law that states that in so many years, all guns sold in the state have to use that technology....even if it is crap....

That is one of the reasons they don't want that gun sold.

It's not the only one.

One of the articles I posted included the fact that the New Jersey legislature is going to repeal that law. The nra has to agree to stop preventing that gun being sold for New Jersey to do it.

I think that it's a good idea to make all guns smart guns. That way there will be less accidents and less guns stolen to be used in a crime.

If the woman had been using a smart gun, she would be alive right now.

You mean well....but you need to look more deeply at the issues involved....smart guns are not reliable....especially not now....the methods to use them...rings, watches.....make it harder for someone in a real need to use them...what if the family member with the ring to use the gun is the first one killed by the attacker....how does the other family member use the gun to stop further attacks....

What if you forget to put on the ring or watch....

And once criminals get into the act....they will hack the smart guns......that is what they do.....

So you're proving rightwinger to be correct. That we just shrug our shoulders and say there's nothing we can or should do. It's just a part what goes with second amendment rights.


You're also proving me correct. I posted to anther person that rightwinger is correct. You're now proving what we both said.

I don't know about you but I grew up with guns in our garage all my life. My dad used to hunt with my grandfather. I don't recall such things happening in the time I grew up. If they did, they were a very rare occurrence and people would do something to prevent it happening again.

America is very opposite of that now.

No, there are things we can do....we can lock up gun offenders for a long time....that prevents them from repeating the offense, and warns off other criminals about carrying and using guns...

For example....a shooting in Chicago last year...two guys shot up a park...wounded 13 people...they were both just out of jail on weapon charges, in under 3 years, one actually got boot camp....

Put them away for 10 years, direct prosecutors to stop using gun offenses as the offense they use to make deals....

 

[2aguy]

Dana....this is why we have so much gun violence....notice the date this guy was sentenced to the "boot camp" on the weapons charge...and when the next shooting took place...

He has previous weapons "CHARGES" as in more than one...and he is out in less than a year...would you be afraid to use or carry a gun if the laws were so lenient.....?

That is why we have so much gun violence...not guns....

Two men charged in mass shooting at Chicago park that wounded 13 people including 3-year-old boy - NY Daily News

Champ has previous weapons charges. He was convicted in July 2012 on charges of unlawful use of a weapon by a felon and sentenced to Cook County Jail's boot camp. Champ is a documented gang member, according to authorities.

"To truly address violence for the long-term we need state and federal laws that keep illegal guns out of our communities and provide real punishment for the criminals who use them," McCarthy said. He said the shooting highlighted a need for a three-year mandatory minimum sentence for illegal gun possession and truth in sentencing for gun crimes in Illinois.

No...we need a 10 year minimum for gang member felons who carry or use a gun......not smart guns.....

 

[2aguy]

I have no problem with them selling the gun...just having politicians mandating that that will be the only technology for guns allowed to be sold....don't you agree.....? You say you believe in the free market...yes? So he should sell his gun alongside all the other guns and see who buys what....right? Or do you think that politicians should say only smart guns can be sold?

That's what the law says. For the first three years it's sold right next to other guns. If the people buy that gun and show that they want that gun, then the law goes into effect. If the people don't want that gun and don't buy it, it will come off the shelves of the stores and that law in New Jersey will never go into effect.

Do I believe that all guns should be smart guns? I see the benefits of it and I can see the drawbacks. However, I don't live in New Jersey and I don't believe I have any right to prevent the people of that state from implementing a law they want. If they didn't want that law, they would have voted out the politicians who passed it and elected ones who would repeal it. The people of New Jersey didn't do that.

I believe that people in a completely different state have no right to tell another state what they can or can't do. A smart gun is perfectly legal and Americans have the right under the second amendment to own and sell one. It's the gun nuts who believe they have the right to decided what guns can be owned and sold in this situation.

Which makes them no better than those who want to outlaw guns in my opinion.

So if your state enacted "Separate but equal" laws, that would be okay? You can't allow a state to violate the Bill of Rights...and the 2nd amendment is a civil right.....

 

[2aguy]

Gangs and light sentencing laws are the problem with guns...not law abiding citizens owning guns....another one of those gang member shooters....

4 charged held without bail in shooting of 13 in Chicago park - FOX 32 News Chicago

The shooting allegedly was revenge for a minor graze wound Gatewood suffered several hours earlier in the 5200 block of South Paulina after a quarrel with gang rivals.

Prosecutors say the four are members of the Blackstone street gang. The park where they opened fire was inside territory frequented by members of the Gangster Disciples. Police said they don't believe they were targeting specific people.

Police said Gatewood and Champ were arrested Saturday night in an abandoned building in the 5200 block of South Marshfield, a few blocks from the chaotic park shooting.

Police have said some of the victims in the park were members of the Gangster Disciples and the shooters were suspected of being affiliated with the Black P Stones.

Champ's criminal record includes a 2012 conviction for aggravated unlawful use of a weapon and a 2011 conviction for receiving stolen property. He was sentenced to Cook County Jail boot camp for the gun-possession conviction and had received probation in the other case, records show.

Young has been arrested more than a dozen times, police said.

 

[Dana7360]

I wasn't talking about legislation. I was talking about a dealer who advertised that he was going to sell smart guns.

When he did that gun nuts and people from the nra attacked him. He got death threats so he backed down and didn't sell the gun.

Death threats stop gun store from selling 'smart' gun. Why? - CSMonitor.com

This is from the article link above:

But the NRA and many gun owners say it’s a government Trojan horse intended to open the door for laws that will mandate “smart” technology in new guns in order to identify gun owners – a notion that’s widely seen by gun owners as a threat to Second Amendment rights. When Mr. Raymond said he’d sell the Armatix, he was deluged with complaints and threats against his life, even the life of his dog. Before relenting on Thursday, Raymond lashed out against his critics in a YouTube video.

Gun Seller Backs Down on Smart Gun Plans After Threats
This is from the article link above:

The NRA recently said in a blog post that the guns have the potential "to mesh with the anti-gunner's agenda, opening the door to a ban on all guns that do not possess the government-required technology,"

So the gun nuts and the nra attacked this man for trying to sell a legal gun. They actually violated the second amendment rights of that gun dealer and anyone who wants to buy that gun.

It looks like gun nuts and the nra are going to do anything they can to prevent any reasonable safety measures and they believe they have the right to tell everyone what gun they can own or sell.

Do you know why they didn't like him and his product....because in New Jersey...once a so called smart gun is created, they have a law that states that in so many years, all guns sold in the state have to use that technology....even if it is crap....

That is one of the reasons they don't want that gun sold.

It's not the only one.

One of the articles I posted included the fact that the New Jersey legislature is going to repeal that law. The nra has to agree to stop preventing that gun being sold for New Jersey to do it.

I think that it's a good idea to make all guns smart guns. That way there will be less accidents and less guns stolen to be used in a crime.

If the woman had been using a smart gun, she would be alive right now.

You mean well....but you need to look more deeply at the issues involved....smart guns are not reliable....especially not now....the methods to use them...rings, watches.....make it harder for someone in a real need to use them...what if the family member with the ring to use the gun is the first one killed by the attacker....how does the other family member use the gun to stop further attacks....

What if you forget to put on the ring or watch....

And once criminals get into the act....they will hack the smart guns......that is what they do.....

So you're proving rightwinger to be correct. That we just shrug our shoulders and say there's nothing we can or should do. It's just a part what goes with second amendment rights.


You're also proving me correct. I posted to anther person that rightwinger is correct. You're now proving what we both said.

I don't know about you but I grew up with guns in our garage all my life. My dad used to hunt with my grandfather. I don't recall such things happening in the time I grew up. If they did, they were a very rare occurrence and people would do something to prevent it happening again.

America is very opposite of that now.

No, there are things we can do....we can lock up gun offenders for a long time....that prevents them from repeating the offense, and warns off other criminals about carrying and using guns...

For example....a shooting in Chicago last year...two guys shot up a park...wounded 13 people...they were both just out of jail on weapon charges, in under 3 years, one actually got boot camp....

Put them away for 10 years, direct prosecutors to stop using gun offenses as the offense they use to make deals....

I agree with you. Why should a person be in prison for a decade with no parole for having some marijuana but the person who violates weapons laws gets out in under 3 years.

Our priorities as a society are completely backwards.

I think we can do a lot of things to prevent such things from happening but it's not being done. The nra has done a lot of harm by preventing reasonable gun safety laws from being implemented.

I don't think it's going to be just one thing. There usually is no one solution to most complex problems. I think that it's a combination of laws and our society.

When I was growing up, if a neighbor saw me doing something I wasn't supposed to do, that neighbor would stop me and tell my parents. Not just neighbors but teachers and school administration, our church pastor, friends of our parents. We had a whole system of people not just our parents. Which gave us a sense of community. Which made us respect our community and want the best. Not the worst.

Now everyone is disconnected from those around us so most really don't care.

 

[2aguy]

Dana.....you don't have to control law abiding citizen's access to guns....you have to punish the criminals who actually use guns to commit crime and other murders...

Smart guns will still be used by criminals and mass shooters...why? Because like criminals do now...they will get family members to get those guns for them legally...to be used in crimes.......hence, they will being using those smart guns...

There are 8-9,000 gun murders a year, mainly in large urban areas, in small multi block areas, like the shooting in the chicago park.....

The shooters were all felons, they could not legally own the guns they used.....again.....the 4 shooters were already convicted felons and could not legally use or carry the guns they used....

They did not go through a background check, they did not get 16 hours of training to carry a concealed weapon, they did not register their guns.....

All of the measures you think you support only work for law abiding citizens......but it won't stop crime.....

The columbine shooters could not legally own their guns, they bought them illegally, the Santa barbara shooter went through 3 background checks, and used the legally mandated 10 round magazines, the Fort Hood shooters...ditto...background checks, the Virginia tech shooter....background checked....Sandy Hook...guns bought legally in a state with strict gun control laws...the owner was murdered and the guns stolen....

The laws you think you support only work on law abiding people....not mass shooters

 

[2aguy]

Do you know why they didn't like him and his product....because in New Jersey...once a so called smart gun is created, they have a law that states that in so many years, all guns sold in the state have to use that technology....even if it is crap....

That is one of the reasons they don't want that gun sold.

It's not the only one.

One of the articles I posted included the fact that the New Jersey legislature is going to repeal that law. The nra has to agree to stop preventing that gun being sold for New Jersey to do it.

I think that it's a good idea to make all guns smart guns. That way there will be less accidents and less guns stolen to be used in a crime.

If the woman had been using a smart gun, she would be alive right now.

You mean well....but you need to look more deeply at the issues involved....smart guns are not reliable....especially not now....the methods to use them...rings, watches.....make it harder for someone in a real need to use them...what if the family member with the ring to use the gun is the first one killed by the attacker....how does the other family member use the gun to stop further attacks....

What if you forget to put on the ring or watch....

And once criminals get into the act....they will hack the smart guns......that is what they do.....

So you're proving rightwinger to be correct. That we just shrug our shoulders and say there's nothing we can or should do. It's just a part what goes with second amendment rights.


You're also proving me correct. I posted to anther person that rightwinger is correct. You're now proving what we both said.

I don't know about you but I grew up with guns in our garage all my life. My dad used to hunt with my grandfather. I don't recall such things happening in the time I grew up. If they did, they were a very rare occurrence and people would do something to prevent it happening again.

America is very opposite of that now.

No, there are things we can do....we can lock up gun offenders for a long time....that prevents them from repeating the offense, and warns off other criminals about carrying and using guns...

For example....a shooting in Chicago last year...two guys shot up a park...wounded 13 people...they were both just out of jail on weapon charges, in under 3 years, one actually got boot camp....

Put them away for 10 years, direct prosecutors to stop using gun offenses as the offense they use to make deals....

I agree with you. Why should a person be in prison for a decade with no parole for having some marijuana but the person who violates weapons laws gets out in under 3 years.

Our priorities as a society are completely backwards.

I think we can do a lot of things to prevent such things from happening but it's not being done. The nra has done a lot of harm by preventing reasonable gun safety laws from being implemented.

I don't think it's going to be just one thing. There usually is no one solution to most complex problems. I think that it's a combination of laws and our society.

When I was growing up, if a neighbor saw me doing something I wasn't supposed to do, that neighbor would stop me and tell my parents. Not just neighbors but teachers and school administration, our church pastor, friends of our parents. We had a whole system of people not just our parents. Which gave us a sense of community. Which made us respect our community and want the best. Not the worst.

Now everyone is disconnected from those around us so most really don't care.

The NRA is preventing useless laws from being passed that only inhibit the ability of law abiding citizens to get guns....can you tell me anything the NRA has supported that would have allowed these criminals to get their guns...

Did you know the NRA supported the current NICS background check system...the one that the anti gunners all wanted?

 

[2aguy]

Also...we need more police, and more police in these small areas of these violent cities....Chicago, again, needs 2,000 police officers....they need to hire at least 1000 out right, and they lose another 1000 each day due to vacations and sick leave....but the politicians in charge won't hire them....they spend that money on their other projects, their political allies, their friends and their own power base......

Arrest the criminals and lock them up a long time....and hire more police........can you get behind that Dana? Those are two anti crime, but not anti gun, measures I support.....and it has nothing to do with smart guns

 

[Dana7360]

Gangs and light sentencing laws are the problem with guns...not law abiding citizens owning guns....another one of those gang member shooters....

4 charged held without bail in shooting of 13 in Chicago park - FOX 32 News Chicago

The shooting allegedly was revenge for a minor graze wound Gatewood suffered several hours earlier in the 5200 block of South Paulina after a quarrel with gang rivals.

Prosecutors say the four are members of the Blackstone street gang. The park where they opened fire was inside territory frequented by members of the Gangster Disciples. Police said they don't believe they were targeting specific people.

Police said Gatewood and Champ were arrested Saturday night in an abandoned building in the 5200 block of South Marshfield, a few blocks from the chaotic park shooting.

Police have said some of the victims in the park were members of the Gangster Disciples and the shooters were suspected of being affiliated with the Black P Stones.

Champ's criminal record includes a 2012 conviction for aggravated unlawful use of a weapon and a 2011 conviction for receiving stolen property. He was sentenced to Cook County Jail boot camp for the gun-possession conviction and had received probation in the other case, records show.

Young has been arrested more than a dozen times, police said.

I'm not talking about gangs and their violence. Neither is the subject of this thread.

It's about a toddler getting it's hands on it's mother's gun and killing her.

Stuff like that can be prevented. With common sense safety practices and laws.

I'm not one of those people who wants to take everyone's guns. Nor am I one that believes that the government wants to take everyone's guns.

I'm one of those people who want more safety, more responsibility and more respect for what a gun is and can do.

I am also one of those people who would never buy or own a gun. I won't allow anyone, except the police, to enter my home with a gun. I won't allow my child to go to a home that had a gun. Yes, I asked, and yes, that same question was asked of me from other parents.

While I feel that way and live my life that way I will never force it on anyone else. If you want a gun to go hunting, more power to you. The deer and elk herds are getting out of control. If you want to go to a shooting range and blast away all day, great. Have a wonderful day. My only request is that you do it all with responsibility and safety so that no innocent person is harmed.

If you want a gun to murder innocent people, no I don't want you to have a gun.

 

[Dana7360]

Dana.....you don't have to control law abiding citizen's access to guns....you have to punish the criminals who actually use guns to commit crime and other murders...

Smart guns will still be used by criminals and mass shooters...why? Because like criminals do now...they will get family members to get those guns for them legally...to be used in crimes.......hence, they will being using those smart guns...

There are 8-9,000 gun murders a year, mainly in large urban areas, in small multi block areas, like the shooting in the chicago park.....

The shooters were all felons, they could not legally own the guns they used.....again.....the 4 shooters were already convicted felons and could not legally use or carry the guns they used....

They did not go through a background check, they did not get 16 hours of training to carry a concealed weapon, they did not register their guns.....

All of the measures you think you support only work for law abiding citizens......but it won't stop crime.....

The columbine shooters could not legally own their guns, they bought them illegally, the Santa barbara shooter went through 3 background checks, and used the legally mandated 10 round magazines, the Fort Hood shooters...ditto...background checks, the Virginia tech shooter....background checked....Sandy Hook...guns bought legally in a state with strict gun control laws...the owner was murdered and the guns stolen....

The laws you think you support only work on law abiding people....not mass shooters

So just because some people are able to get around the law that means we shouldn't even try? No laws just let people do what they want and trust them to do what's right?

Sorry. That's not reasonable in our society today.

If that woman had a smart gun, she would be alive today.

As I said, this thread isn't about gangs and weapons violations. This thread is about a tragedy that could have been prevented. But real gun safety laws can't get implemented because of what you're doing. Using excuses.

Selling smart guns only isn't taking guns from anyone. It's providing another way to prevent such tragedies from happening again. That woman didn't have to die. That poor child didn't have to spend a lifetime knowing she or he killed it's mom. We both know it.

It's also another way to prevent a stolen gun from being used in a crime. Not in every situation but enough so that lives will be saved.

Putting them in prison AFTER they murder someone isn't going to bring a any person back from the dead. Reasonable safety laws and practices will prevent people from dying.

 

[Dana7360]

Also...we need more police, and more police in these small areas of these violent cities....Chicago, again, needs 2,000 police officers....they need to hire at least 1000 out right, and they lose another 1000 each day due to vacations and sick leave....but the politicians in charge won't hire them....they spend that money on their other projects, their political allies, their friends and their own power base......

Arrest the criminals and lock them up a long time....and hire more police........can you get behind that Dana? Those are two anti crime, but not anti gun, measures I support.....and it has nothing to do with smart guns

Of course I can get behind that.

In fact I voted for a man who did just that. In fact I voted for him twice. Bill Clinton promised to hire something like 100 thousand new cops. He had a program just for it. He did hire those 100 thousand cops.

Then the bush boy came along. He closed the program and cut the money to send it to Iraq. So the police forces of America were cut once again. Then the bush boy collapsed the economy and states were forced to cut police budgets even more.

I wish Obama had instituted such a program but he has not.

I have absolutely no problem with putting violent criminals in prison for life. Not just a long time. If they have demonstrated that they are a serious harm to our society, put them away and throw away the key.

The thing is, that's AFTER the person has already murdered. Don't you think it might be a good idea to take steps to prevent that murder from happening in the first place?

 

[Yurt]

40,000 people die in car accidents each year

small price we have to pay for the privilege of driving

 

[2aguy]

No, Clinton lied, he only payed for part of the salaries for those police to get them hired before his reelection, and fired after the reelection....typical democrat....

Keep in mind 24 of the 25 most violent cities in the U.S. Have been controlled for decades by democrats....

you cannot, like Tom Cruise Prevent murders pre crime......as 8-9,000 gun murders a year show....but one of the ways Japan lowers gun crime, besides being a police state.....long sentences for gun crimes and over a 95 % conviction rate...due to the police state....so their criminals have no insentive to carry or use guns....until they really want or need them....because they still have gun crime....

Accidental deaths with guns are a small n umber of deaths and tragic as this one is, it is not intelligent to base policy on it....

there are only under 1000 gun accident deaths each year....in a country of over 310 million people...put that on a calculator....you won't be able to read the number.....

she should have been wearing her gun.....she didn't and there was an accident.....there is no greater policy question here than that....

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

No, Clinton lied, he only payed for part of the salaries for those police to get them hired before his reelection, and fired after the reelection....typical democrat....

Keep in mind 24 of the 25 most violent cities in the U.S. Have been controlled for decades by democrats....

you cannot, like Tom Cruise Prevent murders pre crime......as 8-9,000 gun murders a year show....but one of the ways Japan lowers gun crime, besides being a police state.....long sentences for gun crimes and over a 95 % conviction rate...due to the police state....so their criminals have no insentive to carry or use guns....until they really want or need them....because they still have gun crime....

Accidental deaths with guns are a small nip umber of deaths and tragic as this one is it is not intelligent to base policy on it....

there are only under 1000 gun accident deaths each year....in a country of over 310 million people...put that on a calculator....you won't be able to read the number.....

she should have been wearing her gun.....she didn't and there was an accident.....there is no greater policy question here than that....

Bill , let's be honest here. The woman in question shouldn't have had a gun on her person at all.

You know as well as I that there are otherwise perfectly law abiding citizens who carry guns who have no business carrying them. Do they have a right to? Of course they do. Doesn't mean they should be doing so.

 

[2aguy]

sorry, I don't agree...she should have had it on her, but she had it in a special concealed carry purse....she thought she was being safe.....and an accident happened....

 

[2aguy]

they are accidents with children all the time with kids left in hot cars, drowning in pools....they are accidents.....life is not perfectable.....a friend of my brothers chewed on an electrical cord when he was a child and had a facial scar from the burn.....a woman I know had a child almost drown in their pool....

so unless you can show more evidence of her being routinely unsafe then this was simply an accident.....many cops have their kids shoot themselves and others withy their duty guns...it happens.....

 

[2aguy]

at a local gun store, a female police officer, with years on the force was training with her dept. on the range.....she was having trouble putting the gun back in the holster...and shot herself in the leg 3 times...in and out and back in....she almost bled out.......


At the FBI academy...two FBI firearm instructors inspected a gun about to be used for a demonstration and determined it was empty....they then ended up killing a student with the gun they had both cleared, but which was still loaded......

2 FBI a firearm instructors......

Accidents happen....even to the best trained and most professional shooters who handle guns for a living....

 

[XPostFacto]

Wow, this one even made the BBC 10pm news. Surprised no one here has posted this one yet, or are these stories so common that no one here bothers with them anymore? Or maybe I am on the wrong forum?

Idaho toddler shoots and kills his mother inside Walmart US news The Guardian

You may now proceed to slag me off, or educate me as to why so many American adults have a level of common sense like that of little children.

The child claimed he was in fear for his life. Another one of those stand your ground things.

The authorities have decided the try the 2-year old as an adult.

 

[Brain357]

40,000 people die in car accidents each year

small price we have to pay for the privilege of driving

Of course unlike guns, cars are very important to daily life. Most people use them daily while most will never need a gun for anything.