If God did not exist

[koshergrl]

So you think we should throw out the moral code we have, and replace it with his? That's certainly logical. Why is his preferable?

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Love the attack the messenger approach. "That guy said some perverted shit, so anything he says must be false."

Sorry, but if Charles Manson told me the sky was blue I wouldn't start assuming that I was color blind.

A statement is either valid or it is not, regardless of the mouth spewing it. Can we debate the point in stead of playing sophist?

I do not believe I could trust someone whose only reason for being good was to avoid punishment or to gain reward from the "mythological magical sky daddy."

Conversely, assuming everything someone says is false because you don't agree with their religion or what you assume to be their motives for observing that religion, that's equally silly.

I won't go into the reasoning, kinda redundant after my previous post. In stead I'll assume you were saying this ironically to counter koshergirl's similar argument.

 

[pacer]

Love the attack the messenger approach. "That guy said some perverted shit, so anything he says must be false."

Sorry, but if Charles Manson told me the sky was blue I wouldn't start assuming that I was color blind.

A statement is either valid or it is not, regardless of the mouth spewing it. Can we debate the point in stead of playing sophist?

I do not believe I could trust someone whose only reason for being good was to avoid punishment or to gain reward from the "mythological magical sky daddy."

Conversely, assuming everything someone says is false because you don't agree with their religion or what you assume to be their motives for observing that religion, that's equally silly.

I won't go into the reasoning, kinda redundant after my previous post. In stead I'll assume you were saying this ironically to counter koshergirl's similar argument.

Sorry, I quoted the wrong thread. I totally agree with you.

 

[koshergrl]

No, he isn't smart enough to catch the irony.

 

[turzovka]

Allow me to start by clarifying that I am not a man of faith. I don't presume to know whether or not there's anything more to this existence than what I've observed, or even to know whether what I've observed is reality.

So assuming that the assumptions that sincere, Christian prayers backed by honest faith don't work is correct (and I know quite a few Christians who'd vehemently disagree based on experiences they've claimed to have had) and you've proved that the bible is fallible, how does it follow that you've disproven the existence of even the Judeo-Christian god? Consider the possibility that despite claims to infallibility and 100% divine inspiration, the bible, being written by man, is in fact riddled with mistakes, but that a good deal was actually inspired by the divine, which happens to be the being that, for the most part, the bible describes as God. I won't argue the likelihood of this scenario by any means, as I'm not a believer myself, I simply draw this illustration to point out that this proof that God is imaginary leaves doubt, even where Christianity is concerned.

The greater question is this: Assuming that this was undeniable proof that Christianity is false, how does that then disprove the existence of any god? There are infinite potential explanations for existence. Even if you had managed to strike one down beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt, how does it follow that you've disproven every explanation involving a god?

As a side note, this burden of proof argument that keeps happening between the religious and the atheists is the silliest shit ever. The only way you're not making an assertion is if you accept the possibility of either (that there is a god or that there is not). If you say, there is a god, you've made an assertion and the burden of proving that assertion lies with you. If you say there is no god, you've also made an assertion and the burden of proof for -that- assertion lies with you. Quit trying to pawn your responsibilities off on each other, you lazy zealots.

Not the easiest narrative to follow; you sometimes seemed to be implying that I was doubting God? Anyway, we all live by certain axioms or truths that do not require repeated proof. I assume I exist and the person I am facing in a room exists. Given that, I have enough empirical evidence and reasoned evidence for God that I do not need to prove that to myself. Ever. If an atheist cannot acquiesce to the evidence then I attribute it to an unexplained blindness put there by who know what? Probably pride, the devil’s favorite weapon.

FYI, I am Catholic and we do not refer to Scripture as infallible, nor literal. It is the inspired Word of God, yes, we do refer to it as that. If there are paradoxes contained therein, it is for a purpose. If there are contradictions, I am pretty certain it is based on circumstance. The Book of Eccclesiastes says a time to build up, a time to tear down, a time to embrace, a time to shun embraces. Circumtstances and learned reason dictate the course.

PS – Cannot say I was charmed by your Milton Friedman reference. That has to appear on everyone of your posts?

 

[turzovka]

Check this out for your reading pleasure. There is a ton of material.

God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs

Cool web site. Thanks.

Question for you: How many miracles would it take to convince you that the supernatural is real? One? Two?

Dude... if you're not convinced by the first 'miracle', you're still waiting for it.

Well if one reads between the lines they might consider something more. I.E., miracles are presented, documented and offered up as proof. The skeptic does not render an opinion and moves on, pretty much forgetting such an event ever occurred. This leaves the believer the task of presenting some other event or proof, where once again it is not disprove, but ignored. Then we hear sometime later "there is no evidence for God."

 

[NoNukes]

I never could figure out why atheists are always so hell bent on convincing other people there is no God?? ..

Most of us are not. We just do not believe.

 

[dblack]

Who cares if GOD is imaginary or not?

People who seek a clearer understanding of their lives.

I think the reason this question is problematic is because we inaccurately equate 'imaginary' with 'not real'.

 

[orogenicman]

Who cares if GOD is imaginary or not?


People of faith will not likely change there opinion on the matter, and the same can be said of atheists.

On the contrary. If you show me unambiguous, repeatable, fasifiable evidence for the existence of your god, I will most likely change my opinion on the matter. Got anything like that?

 

[Ernie S.]

I never could figure out why atheists are always so hell bent on convincing other people there is no God?? ..

haha You have that reversed.

Oh. How many threads do you see here started by people trying to convince atheists to become believers? We may not agree with your choices, but in general, we let you be. Show us the same courtesy.

 

[Ernie S.]

haha You have that reversed.

Did you, or did you not, start this thread?? ..

I started the thread for everyone's reading enjoyment. Shall I post what I was sent via PM from a Christian member simply for disagreeing with another member?

I'd like that.

 

[pacer]

Did you, or did you not, start this thread?? ..

I started the thread for everyone's reading enjoyment. Shall I post what I was sent via PM from a Christian member simply for disagreeing with another member?

I'd like that.

haha I would not. I was merely trying to point out that simply disagreeing with certain Christian philosophy can draw the wrath of some members.

 

[Ernie S.]

Did you, or did you not, start this thread?? ..

I started the thread for everyone's reading enjoyment. Shall I post what I was sent via PM from a Christian simply for disagreeing with a certain Christian member?

You are not allowed to post PM's without the senders permission. Sorry to burst your bubble but God exists.

Shhhh!

 

[Ernie S.]

Did you, or did you not, start this thread?? ..

I started the thread for everyone's reading enjoyment. Shall I post what I was sent via PM from a Christian member simply for disagreeing with another member?

No.

That would be an official USMB and more red ink would be spilled.

You too! Quiet!

 

[Ernie S.]

I started the thread for everyone's reading enjoyment. Shall I post what I was sent via PM from a Christian member simply for disagreeing with another member?

Shall we compare the number of threads started by atheists denying God to the number started by Christians asserting there IS?

Do we have to?



Sounds like paperwork.

So? You're getting paid for it. Hop to it, Joe

 

[OldUSAFSniper]

As a police officer for 20 years, I've seen and been near many, many people when they have passed from this earth. I have held broken bodies, held their face in my hands reaching through shattered windshields, held their hands and told them that they would be okay, even if I knew that they wouldn't. I held my 41 day old son in my arms while he passed away. And I sat holding her hand as the only woman I have ever loved slipped away to be with her father and the son we lost in heaven.

When someone dies, you can feel it. You don't even have to be looking and you can feel it when their soul slips from this earth into heaven or what ever you want to call it. I can't even describe it but it is something that is real and it is palpable.

I know of many instances as well of people who had tumors, cancers, sicknesses that should have taken their lives come from doctor visits only to report that those things are just gone. No sign. Nothing. Just gone and cured.

God is real and He is alive, working with His children each and every day. As an evangelical Christian I choose to believe that the Christian bible is the written word of God and that Jesus Christ was His living Son. But I also have nothing but respect and admiration for Catholics and Jewish followers of their faith. As an American, I don't care if you wish to worship door knobs, that is your right as a citizen.

As for athiests, I have no animosity because when I was young, I was a devoted athiest. I do pity athiests because they put their faith into a flawed organism as their supreme being. If man is the height of this universe and there is no more, then my friend, we are in deep trouble.

You can post all of the information you want on why there is not a God. I know what I know and what I have seen and heard. I get down on my knees everyday and thank Christ for the wisdom to see his works in my life.

 

[turzovka]

Good book!

How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind | Strange Notions

For the last half of the twentieth century, Antony Flew (1923-2010) was the world's most famous atheist. Long before Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Sam Harris began taking swipes at religion, Flew was the preeminent spokesman for unbelief. A couple months before the book's release, Flew sat down with Strange Notions contributor Dr. Benjamin Wiker for an interview about his book, his conversion, and the reasons that led him to God.

Dr. Benjamin Wiker: You say in There is a God, that "it may well be that no one is as surprised as I am that my exploration of the Divine has after all these years turned from denial...to discovery." Everyone else was certainly very surprised as well, perhaps all the more so since on our end, it seemed so sudden. But in There is a God, we find that it was actually a very gradual process—a "two decade migration," as you call it. God was the conclusion of a rather long argument, then. But wasn't there a point in the "argument" where you found yourself suddenly surprised by the realization that "There is a God" after all? So that, in some sense, you really did "hear a Voice that says" in the evidence itself "'Can you hear me now?'"

Antony Flew: There were two factors in particular that were decisive. One was my growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe. The second was my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself—which is far more complex than the physical Universe—can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source. I believe that the origin of life and reproduction simply cannot be explained from a biological standpoint despite numerous efforts to do so. With every passing year, the more that was discovered about the richness and inherent intelligence of life, the less it seemed likely that a chemical soup could magically generate the genetic code. The difference between life and non-life, it became apparent to me, was ontological and not chemical. The best confirmation of this radical gulf is Richard Dawkins' comical effort to argue in The God Delusion that the origin of life can be attributed to a "lucky chance." If that's the best argument you have, then the game is over. No, I did not hear a Voice. It was the evidence itself that led me to this conclusion.

 

[koshergrl]

Bingo.

 

[pacer]

"God exists if only in the form of a meme with high survival value, or infective power, in the environment provided by human culture." Richard Dawkins

 

[orogenicman]

As a police officer for 20 years, I've seen and been near many, many people when they have passed from this earth. I have held broken bodies, held their face in my hands reaching through shattered windshields, held their hands and told them that they would be okay, even if I knew that they wouldn't. I held my 41 day old son in my arms while he passed away. And I sat holding her hand as the only woman I have ever loved slipped away to be with her father and the son we lost in heaven.

When someone dies, you can feel it. You don't even have to be looking and you can feel it when their soul slips from this earth into heaven or what ever you want to call it. I can't even describe it but it is something that is real and it is palpable.

I know of many instances as well of people who had tumors, cancers, sicknesses that should have taken their lives come from doctor visits only to report that those things are just gone. No sign. Nothing. Just gone and cured.

God is real and He is alive, working with His children each and every day. As an evangelical Christian I choose to believe that the Christian bible is the written word of God and that Jesus Christ was His living Son. But I also have nothing but respect and admiration for Catholics and Jewish followers of their faith. As an American, I don't care if you wish to worship door knobs, that is your right as a citizen.

As for athiests, I have no animosity because when I was young, I was a devoted athiest. I do pity athiests because they put their faith into a flawed organism as their supreme being. If man is the height of this universe and there is no more, then my friend, we are in deep trouble.

You can post all of the information you want on why there is not a God. I know what I know and what I have seen and heard. I get down on my knees everyday and thank Christ for the wisdom to see his works in my life.

I hate to break it to you but you aren't the only person on the planet who has witnessed death. I have witnessed more than my fair share, and I've never witnessed any of the alleged phenomena you claim. The long and short of it is that 10 anecdotes are no better than one, and 100 are no better than ten. All we have here is your first person revelation, and as such, no one is obligated to believe that your revelation is any more or less valid than mine or anyone else's. Anecdotes are not scientific, nor are they objective evidence.

By the way, just because someone's cancer goes into spontaneous remission doesn't mean that it did so at the beck and call of some supreme being. Cancers sometimes go into spontaneous remission, sometimes for reasons we understand, sometimes for reasons we currently don't. The god of the gaps is not a valid argument for the existence of the supernatural.