Zone1 If God Is All Powerful, All Knowing, and All Loving, Then Why Didn't He Create Us To Be Perfect Like Himself

[Meriweather]

Yes if there is a god that put me here, praise him. Thank him. And I'll try to be good. And if he ever visits he should stop by and say hi to me personally like he did Ding.

And that is why so many of us believe and have faith in God. Many seek and some find and have an experience of God such as Ding had.

This is far from concluding that people of faith have been brainwashed.

 

[sealybobo]

And that is why so many of us believe and have faith in God. Many seek and some find and have an experience of God such as Ding had.

This is far from concluding that people of faith have been brainwashed.

The only place I talk about this is here. Outside of here it's none of my business and I don't want to ruin anyone's beliefs. Even if I think it's bad for humans. I know some who don't believe think it's good for us. What would we be like if we didn't have god giving us a conscience? Overall I disagree but I could be wrong. We could be better off believing in god. Some can't handle the truth.

Just look at Aliens. The government doesn't think the public could handle finding out that aliens are among us. I don't believe they are, but I'm saying our leaders (the people who control us) don't think we can handle the truth.

Same goes with there is no god. Back during Socrates they had a choice. Teach the masses the truth. No slavery and pro science. OR, religion and pro slavery. You know which one they picked. They didn't think the masses could handle democracy and the truth. Better to control them with a lie.

 

[Meriweather]

The only place I talk about this is here. Outside of here it's none of my business and I don't want to ruin anyone's beliefs. Even if I think it's bad for humans. I know some who don't believe think it's good for us. What would we be like if we didn't have god giving us a conscience? Overall I disagree but I could be wrong. We could be better off believing in god. Some can't handle the truth.

Just look at Aliens. The government doesn't think the public could handle finding out that aliens are among us. I don't believe they are, but I'm saying our leaders (the people who control us) don't think we can handle the truth.

Same goes with there is no god. Back during Socrates they had a choice. Teach the masses the truth. No slavery and pro science. OR, religion and pro slavery. You know which one they picked. They didn't think the masses could handle democracy and the truth. Better to control them with a lie.

Those in charge under estimate the masses. The masses over estimate those in charge and those who seem to be in charge. That the government can fix the climate and guide us through Covid are two examples. Yes, I could tell you true experiences with Covid, but you wouldn't like any of them. Well, you might find the story about one of my students who decided with his laptop he could attend his zoom class and go duck hunting at the same time amusing.

People don't understand things the same way. We are all unique. Language changes.

 

[Blues Man]

Oh brother

Hey Donkey YOU said you got 50 notifications from me

Maybe you should brush up on your prepositional phrases.

 

[Blues Man]

I didn't tell you who or what to respond to. I asked that your posts please refrain from a specific behavior.

What behavior? typing? because that is the only behavior I can engage in on the board

 

[Hawkins]

If God has the power to do anything imaginable and knows all things, certainly He would have the power to make us to be exactly like himself. Certainly He would know how to make us perfect like himself, and if He truly loves us, then he would certainly make us to be the best we could be. So why did God create us as imperfect sinful beings instead of perfect beings just like himself?

Some have answered this by saying that God gave us free will and because of this mankind has chosen to be imperfect. However, this does not really answer the dilemma. If God created us to be perfect like Himself, then we would make perfect choices given that we are created to be perfect even as God is perfect. Does God have free will? Does God make bad choices?

As a Christian, how would you respond to this problem of imperfect and evil?

Do you even know how to make perfect products? There's always a process called QA to ensure the production of pefect products. Humans now are within such a QA process. Heaven is the place where the perfection in your mind will be shown.

Perfect products follow logical and mathematical laws to be produced.

Free will at the end means one is given the ability to choose to oppose God. Mathematics (statistics and probabilities, to be more specific) says that it's mathematically inevitable that some will choose to oppose God and some don't. This follows a distribution of probabilities to behave, and is with a mathematical expected outcome when a normal distribution is assumed.

It's not a dilemma but a requirement of the laws of mathematics. It's like if you are not given the ability to oppose God, you don't have free will. If you are given the true choice to be able to oppose God, some will do so inevitably and mathematically.

 

[ding]

Hey Donkey YOU said you got 50 notifications from me

Maybe you should brush up on your prepositional phrases.

You're a hammer looking for a nail.

 

[ChemEngineer]

So many people commenting here seem to think themselves smarter than God.
"He should have done this. He should have done that."

I would ask them, one and all, did all of your children live up to your plans and expectations?

God said "My thoughts are not your thoughts." We are approximately on the intellectual level of
worms compared to Nature's God who made the universe and the laws of science.
The pretentiousness in "He should have" is arrogant and insufferable. We all have questions and wonder why this and why that. But in the final analysis, "This is the day the Lord hath made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it" is as good as it gets, psychologically and spiritually.

 

[onefour1]

So that we could experience good and evil; victory and defeat; laughing and crying; loving and hating, success and failure. What are you expecting? Why isn't this enough? You are the pinnacle of creation. The most complex creation in the universe that we know of.

But if that's not good enough of an answer for you, see Job 40 for God's response.

I would think that if God is all powerful and all knowing in that He can do anything imaginable, then He would be able to create a being who would already have a perfect knowledge and understanding of good and evil, victory and defeat, laughing and crying, loving and hating, and success and failure. A perfect being with all understanding, wisdom, and knowledge does not need to experience things to gain such understanding, wisdom and knowledge but would already have it. If God can do anything imaginable, then certainly He would be able to do this. I expect an all powerful God that can do anything imaginable to be able to create a perfect being that does not need to rely upon personal experience to then gain knowledge wisdom, and understanding. It isn't enough because if a God has the power to do anything imaginable, then He should be able to circumvent all the pain, suffering, and death and time required to bring man up to a state of perfection by simply creating him to be perfect from the start. If I am the pinnacle of creations, why am I not created as perfect as God Himself? We may be the most complex creation we know of now, but I ask why God didn't create me perfect like himself? Sorry Job 40 doesn't answer the question.

My answer to this question is that God only all powerful in the He can all things that are possible. I don't believe that God can create anything out of nothing. I believe that our intelligence is self-existing and thus could not be created or made and neither indeed can be. If God could not create our intelligence, He certainly could not create it to be perfect. God combined eternal intelligence with eternal matter to form our spirit bodies. He later created Adam's physical body from the dust of the earth and created Eve from Adam's rib. I know you don't believe this, so tell me why God couldn't have created us perfect as himself as I imagine in the first paragraph above out of nothing instead of less than perfect.

 

[onefour1]

Doesn't the same question apply regardless of whether God created existence from something or nothing?

Possibly, but I believe that you believe that He can create out of nothing. Why couldn't God create us with a perfect knowledge, wisdom and understanding to be just like Himself without have to go through states of progression? If He could create us as such, I imagine that we would have all the knowledge of personal experience, wisdom and understanding so that we would not need to experience an experience to gain knowledge, wisdom or understanding.

 

[onefour1]

Because we are his creatures.

Why not perfect creatures?

We are not gods.

Why?

Or maybe because God wants us to love him for who God is and not for what God can do for us.

But God is a perfect God of love and why wouldn't he want his creatures to be the very best that He could create them to be? Does He want us to love Him for not making us perfect over the fact that he could have made us perfect? Sounds illogical!

Does your love for God hinge on your reward?

To a degree yes. I love God because he rewards me with His love. He rewards me with mercy and forgiveness. He promises me eternal life. He created me and gives me my daily breath. When I compare Him to what I gain from others, He wins out and I love him for it.

Is your love for God on the condition he couldn't make everything be perfect?

No. But He has given me understanding so that I will not wonder why He didn't make me perfect.

Would you love God less if he could have made everything perfect but didn't.

If God could have made everything perfect but chose not to, I would definitely wonder why and want to know the reason. Would you not be curious? If God truly had a good reason, I would want to know what is was. That is why I ask you for your reasoning to see if you have found one. I have my answer and I don't need to wonder if I would love God less.

Because I submit to you that this is how he grows the crops he wants to grow.

I agree this is how he grows the crops because He couldn't make us perfect for the reasons I've given.

 

[ding]

I would think that if God is all powerful and all knowing in that He can do anything imaginable, then He would be able to create a being who would already have a perfect knowledge and understanding of good and evil, victory and defeat, laughing and crying, loving and hating, and success and failure. A perfect being with all understanding, wisdom, and knowledge does not need to experience things to gain such understanding, wisdom and knowledge but would already have it. If God can do anything imaginable, then certainly He would be able to do this. I expect an all powerful God that can do anything imaginable to be able to create a perfect being that does not need to rely upon personal experience to then gain knowledge wisdom, and understanding. It isn't enough because if a God has the power to do anything imaginable, then He should be able to circumvent all the pain, suffering, and death and time required to bring man up to a state of perfection by simply creating him to be perfect from the start. If I am the pinnacle of creations, why am I not created as perfect as God Himself? We may be the most complex creation we know of now, but I ask why God didn't create me perfect like himself? Sorry Job 40 doesn't answer the question.

You are painting yourself into a corner thinking like this.

 

[ding]

My answer to this question is that God only all powerful in the He can all things that are possible. I don't believe that God can create anything out of nothing. I believe that our intelligence is self-existing and thus could not be created or made and neither indeed can be. If God could not create our intelligence, He certainly could not create it to be perfect. God combined eternal intelligence with eternal matter to form our spirit bodies. He later created Adam's physical body from the dust of the earth and created Eve from Adam's rib. I know you don't believe this, so tell me why God couldn't have created us perfect as himself as I imagine in the first paragraph above out of nothing instead of less than perfect.

Science literally explains how it is possible for energy to be created from energy that has never existed before. It's called paired particle production.

So it is possible for God to create the universe from nothing through paired particle production.

But setting that aside, your perception of God, limits God. Whereas my perception of God, does not limit God. My perception of God, is that God could have done anything because he makes possible possible. So since God didn't create the utopia you desire, it had to be for a very good reason known to God. That's where Job 40 comes in. You aren't God. You have no idea what God's purpose is and apparently you can't even imagine possible reasons that explain God's choices. Even though this has been discussed ad nauseum and is readily available through a quick internet search.

 

[ding]

Possibly, but I believe that you believe that He can create out of nothing. Why couldn't God create us with a perfect knowledge, wisdom and understanding to be just like Himself without have to go through states of progression? If He could create us as such, I imagine that we would have all the knowledge of personal experience, wisdom and understanding so that we would not need to experience an experience to gain knowledge, wisdom or understanding.

Are you seriously telling me that you can't think of one reason why an all powerful, good God allows suffering?

 

[Kruska]

If God has the power to do anything imaginable and knows all things, certainly He would have the power to make us to be exactly like himself. Certainly He would know how to make us perfect like himself, and if He truly loves us, then he would certainly make us to be the best we could be. So why did God create us as imperfect sinful beings instead of perfect beings just like himself?

Some have answered this by saying that God gave us free will and because of this mankind has chosen to be imperfect. However, this does not really answer the dilemma. If God created us to be perfect like Himself, then we would make perfect choices given that we are created to be perfect even as God is perfect. Does God have free will? Does God make bad choices?

As a Christian, how would you respond to this problem of imperfect and evil?

Ahmm... let's assume that there is a God, then he did create humans, beholding exactly the same traits as him.

He beholds an extreme vengeful conviction, is a sadist and a ruthless autocrat - anyone who doesn't listen to his commands he murders off.

His sadistic tendency beheld - ordering human sacrifices to be made, e.g. the sacrifice of Isaac, watching his own son suffering a gruesome death, etc.
Watching millions and millions of people getting murdered via wars, the inquisition, right down to the holocaust and present day genocides.

Didn't protect them poor Dino's - but allowed for a meteor/asteroid to kill them all. - don't know what they did wrong, maybe he just didn't like his own creations

He send the flood to murder off all mankind, fauna and animal life - aside from a single family and them lucky pairs of animals. (did they draw lots?) he forgot about the plant-life and insects though, or did Noah store plants. trees, insects, etc?

He conducted personal nuke strikes onto Sodom and Gomorrah - just because them folks were having lavish parties.

One could even go as far as claiming that "religion" (factually and initially just a moral codex) was invented/brought in solely by humans, in order to set rules and boundaries to obstruct Gods vengeance traits and sadism that he had implanted 1:1 into his creations. !!! Since religion has been endlessly manipulated by Gods own creatures - it didn't work out either.

As such only atheists are the sole upholders of a human moral codex, that can't be manipulated by God's supposed creatures and their respective religious cults.

 

[ding]

Why not perfect creatures?

To experience life in all of its majestic glory. So why perfect creatures? Do you believe the flesh is more important than the spirit? If you pray for courage, God isn't going to give you courage. He's going to put you in situations that will allow you to gain courage. It's not virtuous to be made to be virtuous. Virtue only has meaning if one has a choice to not be virtuous. You look at the world and see suffering. I look at the world and see opportunities to overcome suffering. Which one of us trusts God more?

 

[ding]

Why?

Because we are material beings that were born to die. We came from dust (star dust to be exact) and shall return to dust.

 

[ding]

But God is a perfect God of love and why wouldn't he want his creatures to be the very best that He could create them to be? Does He want us to love Him for not making us perfect over the fact that he could have made us perfect? Sounds illogical!

He does love us and want us to be the very best we can be. He wants us to love him for who he is, not what he can do for us. The flesh is of no avail. You seem to be hung up on suffering. First of all, suffering is a small part of existing. You are overstating the bad and understating the good. Rather than seeing the bad as bad, you should see the bad as an opportunity for good to arise. You don't have perfect knowledge to say your way is superior than the way God chose. God does have perfect knowledge. Who are you to question it or limit God just because God didn't do it your way.

 

[ding]

To a degree yes. I love God because he rewards me with His love. He rewards me with mercy and forgiveness. He promises me eternal life. He created me and gives me my daily breath. When I compare Him to what I gain from others, He wins out and I love him for it.

And yet you question why he didn't make everything better. No offense but that's like the kid who was unhappy his Christmas present wasn't better.

 

[onefour1]

Do you even know how to make perfect products? There's always a process called QA to ensure the production of pefect products. Humans now are within such a QA process. Heaven is the place where the perfection in your mind will be shown.

Doesn't quality assurance rely on sampling and not testing every product? I would think you would still get some product that makes it through the QA process that is imperfect. I think the majority of those who believe in God are convinced that God's knowledge is perfect and they are not.

Perfect products follow logical and mathematical laws to be produced.

Only if they fall into the sample.

Free will at the end means one is given the ability to choose to oppose God. Mathematics (statistics and probabilities, to be more specific) says that it's mathematically inevitable that some will choose to oppose God and some don't. This follows a distribution of probabilities to behave, and is with a mathematical expected outcome when a normal distribution is assumed.

With God's foreknowledge and perfect knowledge, God knows in advance who will make it and who will not. Yet He must allow each being the free will to choose to be fair to each individual. He simply knows how each of us will choose.

It's not a dilemma but a requirement of the laws of mathematics. It's like if you are not given the ability to oppose God, you don't have free will. If you are given the true choice to be able to oppose God, some will do so inevitably and mathematically.

I think from man's understanding of statistics we can know the probability that many will not choose to follow God. From God's foreknowledge He knows exactly who and how many will not follow Him!