Zone1 If God Is All Powerful, All Knowing, and All Loving, Then Why Didn't He Create Us To Be Perfect Like Himself

[ding]

No. But He has given me understanding so that I will not wonder why He didn't make me perfect.

Ok, why didn't God make you perfect? Because that would seem like it might apply to your broader question of why he didn't make everything better.

 

[ding]

If God could have made everything perfect but chose not to, I would definitely wonder why and want to know the reason. Would you not be curious? If God truly had a good reason, I would want to know what is was. That is why I ask you for your reasoning to see if you have found one. I have my answer and I don't need to wonder if I would love God less.

Sure. I've been working through that question for more than ten years. The simple answer I found is so that good can come from it.

 

[ding]

I agree this is how he grows the crops because He couldn't make us perfect for the reasons I've given.

Except your reasons are he couldn't. My reasons are so that good could come from it.

 

[onefour1]

Science literally explains how it is possible for energy to be created from energy that has never existed before. It's called paired particle production.

I just spent some time looking at this paired particle production THEORY at the following article:

Pair Production Explained in a Hidden Variable Theory

Here is the conclusion:

6. Conclusions​

A conceptual theory has been created within the NLHV framework of the Cordus theory, for the processes of electron-antielectron pair-production. The explanation is given in terms of the remanufacture of the discrete fields of the photon into those of the electron and antielectron, and the corresponding emergence of the inner structure of those particules. This is a significant outcome in that it provides an ontological explanation for mass-energy equivalence. The present paper has anticipated what the pair-production processes could look like in a NLHV solution, and annihilation, which is the inverse process, has also been demonstrated within this same framework. Thus the processes in both directions of mass-energy conversion have been explained. By comparison, quantum mechanics is unable to give an ontologically sufficient explanation for either of these processes. Consequently it is also significant is that the explanation comes from the NLHV sector. This has otherwise not historically been a productive area in which to seek solutions. The hidden-variable sector is shown to have yielded an alternative theory of fundamental physics with excellent explanatory power under physical realism. It provides novel insights into processes at the next deeper level of physics, and shows a candidate route to a new physics that spans particles, time, and gravitation.

Evidently this is a THEORY. Here is dictionary.com's definition:

theory​

[ thee-uh-ree, theer-ee ]SHOW IPA

See synonyms for: theorytheories on Thesaurus.com

---

noun,plural the·o·ries.

1. a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena:Einstein's theory of relativity.
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.

1. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject:number theory.
2. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice:music theory.
3. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles:conflicting theories of how children best learn to read.
4. contemplation or speculation:the theory that there is life on other planets.
5. guess or conjecture:My theory is that he never stops to think words have consequences.
   
   
   A THEORY isn't an actual fact. It is a general concensus of many who BELIEVE it to be the way things are. However, it is not an actual fact. That is why there can be conflicting theories. they may be regarded as actual fact by some but without actual evidences of fact, a theory is only a belief or general consensus that could be false.

So it is possible for God to create the universe from nothing through paired particle production.

Here you make the assumption that a THEORY is proof of God's creating out of nothing.

But setting that aside, your perception of God, limits God. Whereas my perception of God, does not limit God. My perception of God, is that God could have done anything because he makes possible possible.

My belief that God cannot be absolutely good and absolutely evil also limits God. My belief that God cannot exist and simultaneously not exist also limits God. Yes there are things one can imagine that limit God from doing anything imaginable. If God makes possible possible then you should agree that God does not exist along with the atheists.

So since God didn't create the utopia you desire, it had to be for a very good reason known to God. That's where Job 40 comes in. You aren't God. You have no idea what God's purpose is and apparently you can't even imagine possible reasons that explain God's choices. Even though this has been discussed ad nauseum and is readily available through a quick internet search.

Yes, it was for a very good reason known to God which He revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith as previously discussed. You are right, I'm not God but you assume because I am not God that I cannot know things about God. Do you not know that Jesus is the Christ? Do you not know anything about God from the revelations in the Bible? Can I not know any truth from the spirit of truth?

According to the article's conclusion, it is a conceptual theory. You can believe the theory but it's not actual fact.

 

[onefour1]

Are you seriously telling me that you can't think of one reason why an all powerful, good God allows suffering?

NO! I've already explained why I believe God could not create us perfect like Himself. Because of that, he does allow suffering. Scratching my head wondering how your came to ask me this?

 

[onefour1]

Ahmm... let's assume that there is a God, then he did create humans, beholding exactly the same traits as him.

He beholds an extreme vengeful conviction, is a sadist and a ruthless autocrat - anyone who doesn't listen to his commands he murders off.

His sadistic tendency beheld - ordering human sacrifices to be made, e.g. the sacrifice of Isaac, watching his own son suffering a gruesome death, etc.
Watching millions and millions of people getting murdered via wars, the inquisition, right down to the holocaust and present day genocides.

Didn't protect them poor Dino's - but allowed for a meteor/asteroid to kill them all. - don't know what they did wrong, maybe he just didn't like his own creations

He send the flood to murder off all mankind, fauna and animal life - aside from a single family and them lucky pairs of animals. (did they draw lots?) he forgot about the plant-life and insects though, or did Noah store plants. trees, insects, etc?

He conducted personal nuke strikes onto Sodom and Gomorrah - just because them folks were having lavish parties.

One could even go as far as claiming that "religion" (factually and initially just a moral codex) was invented/brought in solely by humans, in order to set rules and boundaries to obstruct Gods vengeance traits and sadism that he had implanted 1:1 into his creations. !!! Since religion has been endlessly manipulated by Gods own creatures - it didn't work out either.

As such only atheists are the sole upholders of a human moral codex, that can't be manipulated by God's supposed creatures and their respective religious cults.

Yes, we all have the capacity and free will to dream up whatever we wish to convict God of sadism. What I believe is this earth is a temporal existence and all life will live again forever and not look back and think God created earth for his own sadistic desires but for our learning and grow in the eternities. You definitely have free will to believe and interpret things as you like, but I too have that same privilege. I like to think that we aren't a victim of chance in this universe but that we do have a loving Father in Heaven and a loving Savior. I heard arguments from both sides and I'm more convinced and greater hope that God exists and He is a loving and caring God. I haven't heard an argument yet that would convince me that God doesn't exist . God has a purpose for placing us in this temporal existence and part of that is to learn what pain, suffer, and death are. Many die from others killing them, many die from disease, many die from old age, many die in their youth due to health reasons or accidents, etc. etc. The truth is that God wants all mankind to experience death. Eventually most all mankind will die. I think there is something to experiencing death and then resurrection. I don't full understand it but I believe that we can all appreciate immortality when we receive it in comparison to death. I don't know if it really matter that much how we die. I believe God does not want us to be loving murder but he has commanded some to war with others and destroy them. I think this has to do with furthering his plans for this temporal existence on earth. But God knows that He will bring life in a body of flesh and bones back to all mankind and probably to all living creatures. I don't judge God because I believe that through him I will receive immortality. We can blame him for everything because he has the power to thwart it but God does have his eternal reasons for doing what he does and I believe that His reasons all promote eternal goodness.

 

[onefour1]

To experience life in all of its majestic glory. So why perfect creatures? Do you believe the flesh is more important than the spirit? If you pray for courage, God isn't going to give you courage. He's going to put you in situations that will allow you to gain courage. It's not virtuous to be made to be virtuous. Virtue only has meaning if one has a choice to not be virtuous. You look at the world and see suffering. I look at the world and see opportunities to overcome suffering. Which one of us trusts God more?

Why would you need to experience everything if you were created with all the knowledge, wisdom and understanding you could receive from those experiences? You ask why perfect creatures, I would counter with why go through all the time, pain, suffer, and death if it could be avoided and still have the best outcome? No, I don't believe the flesh is more important than the spirit. If you were created perfect, your spirit would also be perfect. It would be a matter of equal importance. If you were created perfect you would already have perfect courage. You say its not virtuous to be made to be virtuous. How so? If you are made to make all the correct decisions with your free will because of your perfect knowledge, wisdom and understanding, why wouldn't those choices be virtuous? Is God the Father not virtuous or did He have to go through the trials of man to be virtuous? Does God the Father have a choice to not be virtuous?

What you do not understand in this thread is that I have put forward a proposition of God creating us perfect and have asked other why He didn't according to their belief system. I don't do this because I believe he should have. I have explained that He didn't create us perfect for certain reasons. I don't believe that he could have created us perfect nor do I disbelieve in God because he didn't make us perfect. I play the defender to the argument to see if you can come up with good reason for God not making us perfect according to your belief system of which I have presented my reason why but you don't agree with. So I try to solicit a strong logical response from you but argue the opposite to see if you can give logical reasoning to my counter arguments. I haven't yet been convinced by your arguments. I don't actually believe that God could create us perfect because I believe that God creates all living creatures' intelligence from self existing intelligence and not from nothing. I get this idea from what I believe are revelations from God. So, when you assume that I look upon the world's suffering as a condition of no value, I refute that and say that the suffering of this world does teach us value and character. All I really want from you is good convincing argument as to why, under your belief system, God could not or would not create us to be perfect if he truly had the power to do so. So far you respond with ideas of we would not have virtue, courage, etc. I'm not convince that we would be without such character traits if God is capable of anything good and could have created us to already have those traits. So I'm not against your argument for imperfect beings gaining good character traits. What I am try to reason out of you is why God, if he had the power and capability to create us perfect, why he would choose otherwise. From my point of view, If God has the power to create a being with all the character traits of perfection, without going through the process of progression of imperfect beings as He actually does, then I'm looking for good reason why he didn't according to your belief system.

 

[onefour1]

Because we are material beings that were born to die. We came from dust (star dust to be exact) and shall return to dust.

But this just cycles back to the basic question that if God had the power to make us perfect as he is, why did he make us to die and not with perfect knowledge, wisdom and understanding so that we would never sin under our free will choices and have to die?

 

[onefour1]

He does love us and want us to be the very best we can be

I agree.

. He wants us to love him for who he is, not what he can do for us.

I feel I do love him for who he is. According to my belief system, I do not believe that God ever had the power to create us from nothing nor do I believe that he created our intelligence. He created us from what existed and I believe our intelligence is self existing and was not created or made and neither indeed can be. I love him for being who He is and appreciate that. I don't believe God could have made us perfect so I don't not love God because He didn't make us perfect. I believe whole heartedly that He couldn't and I appreciate that. I just simply want your explanation under your belief system as to why God would not create us perfect given that you believe he could have made us perfect and that he can create anything from nothing.

The flesh is of no avail. You seem to be hung up on suffering.

I'm not hung up on suffering at all. I simply bring it up as a logical response to your belief that God could have made us perfect but chose not to. I bring up the fact that a loving God who could make us perfect without all the pain, suffering and death would logically choose to simply make us perfect in every way so that we would not need to go through that. But since I already believe that God couldn't create us perfect, I do understand the growth that can come out of experiencing pain, suffering and even death.

First of all, suffering is a small part of existing. You are overstating the bad and understating the good.

Not true, I am only trying to solicit a response to why, if you believe God has the power to make us perfect in all ways, why He would not choose to do so. I already believe that He couldn't make us perfect. I believe that pain, suffering and death have a purpose for we imperfect beings and that is for our eternal growth and progression. But since you believe God could have made us perfect, I want from you good reasoning according to your belief system why he chose not to make us perfect.

Rather than seeing the bad as bad, you should see the bad as an opportunity for good to arise. You don't have perfect knowledge to say your way is superior than the way God chose. God does have perfect knowledge. Who are you to question it or limit God just because God didn't do it your way.

I personally do see pain, suffering and death as way for us to come to greater knowledge, wisdom and understanding. But if, according to your belief system, God could have made us with a perfect knowledge, wisdom and understanding without all the pain, suffering , and death, why he chose to do so. So far I haven't seen you truly answer this without turning on me.

 

[onefour1]

And yet you question why he didn't make everything better. No offense but that's like the kid who was unhappy his Christmas present wasn't better.

NO! I already have my answer to why he didn't make us perfect. But according to your belief system, you hold that God could have made us perfect but chose not to. My belief system tells me that God couldn't make us perfect. I simply want the explanation from your belief system as to why He didn't create us perfect when He could have. I'm not like the kid you suggest because I'm not unhappy but fully satisfied with my beliefs and understand why He couldn't. I am happy with my belief system. I just want your solid reasoning for why He didn't create us perfect when he could have. So far your answers haven't really satisfied my question.

 

[onefour1]

Sure. I've been working through that question for more than ten years. The simple answer I found is so that good can come from it.

So if God created us with a perfect love, perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, perfect wisdom, etc., you don't believe good can come from that?

 

[onefour1]

Except your reasons are he couldn't. My reasons are so that good could come from it.

Again, so if God created us with a perfect love, perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, perfect wisdom, etc., you don't believe good can come from that?

 

[onefour1]

Ok, why didn't God make you perfect? Because that would seem like it might apply to your broader question of why he didn't make everything better.

Because He couldn't. God doesn't have the power to create intelligence. I believe there is intelligence in all things. This is how Moses could command the Red Sea to part and it obeyed him, or how Jesus commanded the water to be wine and it was so.

 

[Blues Man]

You're a hammer looking for a nail.

It's not may fault you don't understand prepositions

 

[ding]

I just spent some time looking at this paired particle production THEORY at the following article:

Pair Production Explained in a Hidden Variable Theory

Here is the conclusion:

6. Conclusions​

A conceptual theory has been created within the NLHV framework of the Cordus theory, for the processes of electron-antielectron pair-production. The explanation is given in terms of the remanufacture of the discrete fields of the photon into those of the electron and antielectron, and the corresponding emergence of the inner structure of those particules. This is a significant outcome in that it provides an ontological explanation for mass-energy equivalence. The present paper has anticipated what the pair-production processes could look like in a NLHV solution, and annihilation, which is the inverse process, has also been demonstrated within this same framework. Thus the processes in both directions of mass-energy conversion have been explained. By comparison, quantum mechanics is unable to give an ontologically sufficient explanation for either of these processes. Consequently it is also significant is that the explanation comes from the NLHV sector. This has otherwise not historically been a productive area in which to seek solutions. The hidden-variable sector is shown to have yielded an alternative theory of fundamental physics with excellent explanatory power under physical realism. It provides novel insights into processes at the next deeper level of physics, and shows a candidate route to a new physics that spans particles, time, and gravitation.

Evidently this is a THEORY. Here is dictionary.com's definition:

theory​

[ thee-uh-ree, theer-ee ]SHOW IPA

See synonyms for: theorytheories on Thesaurus.com

---

noun,plural the·o·ries.

1. a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena:Einstein's theory of relativity.
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject:number theory.
4. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice:music theory.
5. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles:conflicting theories of how children best learn to read.
6. contemplation or speculation:the theory that there is life on other planets.
7. guess or conjecture:My theory is that he never stops to think words have consequences.
   
   
   A THEORY isn't an actual fact. It is a general concensus of many who BELIEVE it to be the way things are. However, it is not an actual fact. That is why there can be conflicting theories. they may be regarded as actual fact by some but without actual evidences of fact, a theory is only a belief or general consensus that could be false.

Here you make the assumption that a THEORY is proof of God's creating out of nothing.

My belief that God cannot be absolutely good and absolutely evil also limits God. My belief that God cannot exist and simultaneously not exist also limits God. Yes there are things one can imagine that limit God from doing anything imaginable. If God makes possible possible then you should agree that God does not exist along with the atheists.

Yes, it was for a very good reason known to God which He revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith as previously discussed. You are right, I'm not God but you assume because I am not God that I cannot know things about God. Do you not know that Jesus is the Christ? Do you not know anything about God from the revelations in the Bible? Can I not know any truth from the spirit of truth?

According to the article's conclusion, it is a conceptual theory. You can believe the theory but it's not actual fact.

It's literally how the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB) was created. There are no other explanations for the CMB other than paired particle production. The CMB is literally the smoking gun of how the universe was created.

 

[ding]

NO! I've already explained why I believe God could not create us perfect like Himself. Because of that, he does allow suffering. Scratching my head wondering how your came to ask me this?

And your answer was that it was impossible for God to do it any other way and that never gave you pause for concern because you couldn't possibly understand why God would do that. So you just assumed God couldn't do it rather than try to understand how it is more beneficial for you to overcome adversity.

 

[ding]

Yes, we all have the capacity and free will to dream up whatever we wish to convict God of sadism. What I believe is this earth is a temporal existence and all life will live again forever and not look back and think God created earth for his own sadistic desires but for our learning and grow in the eternities. You definitely have free will to believe and interpret things as you like, but I too have that same privilege. I like to think that we aren't a victim of chance in this universe but that we do have a loving Father in Heaven and a loving Savior. I heard arguments from both sides and I'm more convinced and greater hope that God exists and He is a loving and caring God. I haven't heard an argument yet that would convince me that God doesn't exist . God has a purpose for placing us in this temporal existence and part of that is to learn what pain, suffer, and death are. Many die from others killing them, many die from disease, many die from old age, many die in their youth due to health reasons or accidents, etc. etc. The truth is that God wants all mankind to experience death. Eventually most all mankind will die. I think there is something to experiencing death and then resurrection. I don't full understand it but I believe that we can all appreciate immortality when we receive it in comparison to death. I don't know if it really matter that much how we die. I believe God does not want us to be loving murder but he has commanded some to war with others and destroy them. I think this has to do with furthering his plans for this temporal existence on earth. But God knows that He will bring life in a body of flesh and bones back to all mankind and probably to all living creatures. I don't judge God because I believe that through him I will receive immortality. We can blame him for everything because he has the power to thwart it but God does have his eternal reasons for doing what he does and I believe that His reasons all promote eternal goodness.

You might as well be blaming God for death and male pattern baldness too. And you most certainly have judged God. In your eyes God is either incompetent or a sadist. As those are your only two options. Whereas I believe God is not incompetent and for reasons known to him suffering and death serve his purpose which is to make good come from bad to produce the crop he desires.

 

[ding]

Why would you need to experience everything if you were created with all the knowledge, wisdom and understanding you could receive from those experiences? You ask why perfect creatures, I would counter with why go through all the time, pain, suffer, and death if it could be avoided and still have the best outcome? No, I don't believe the flesh is more important than the spirit. If you were created perfect, your spirit would also be perfect. It would be a matter of equal importance. If you were created perfect you would already have perfect courage. You say its not virtuous to be made to be virtuous. How so? If you are made to make all the correct decisions with your free will because of your perfect knowledge, wisdom and understanding, why wouldn't those choices be virtuous? Is God the Father not virtuous or did He have to go through the trials of man to be virtuous? Does God the Father have a choice to not be virtuous?

What you do not understand in this thread is that I have put forward a proposition of God creating us perfect and have asked other why He didn't according to their belief system. I don't do this because I believe he should have. I have explained that He didn't create us perfect for certain reasons. I don't believe that he could have created us perfect nor do I disbelieve in God because he didn't make us perfect. I play the defender to the argument to see if you can come up with good reason for God not making us perfect according to your belief system of which I have presented my reason why but you don't agree with. So I try to solicit a strong logical response from you but argue the opposite to see if you can give logical reasoning to my counter arguments. I haven't yet been convinced by your arguments. I don't actually believe that God could create us perfect because I believe that God creates all living creatures' intelligence from self existing intelligence and not from nothing. I get this idea from what I believe are revelations from God. So, when you assume that I look upon the world's suffering as a condition of no value, I refute that and say that the suffering of this world does teach us value and character. All I really want from you is good convincing argument as to why, under your belief system, God could not or would not create us to be perfect if he truly had the power to do so. So far you respond with ideas of we would not have virtue, courage, etc. I'm not convince that we would be without such character traits if God is capable of anything good and could have created us to already have those traits. So I'm not against your argument for imperfect beings gaining good character traits. What I am try to reason out of you is why God, if he had the power and capability to create us perfect, why he would choose otherwise. From my point of view, If God has the power to create a being with all the character traits of perfection, without going through the process of progression of imperfect beings as He actually does, then I'm looking for good reason why he didn't according to your belief system.

See Job 40 for God's reply to you.

 

[ding]

But this just cycles back to the basic question that if God had the power to make us perfect as he is, why did he make us to die and not with perfect knowledge, wisdom and understanding so that we would never sin under our free will choices and have to die?

To serve his purpose and not yours. To create order from chaos; to bring good from evil; to grow the crop he desires. Take your pick.

 

[ding]

I agree.

I feel I do love him for who he is. According to my belief system, I do not believe that God ever had the power to create us from nothing nor do I believe that he created our intelligence. He created us from what existed and I believe our intelligence is self existing and was not created or made and neither indeed can be. I love him for being who He is and appreciate that. I don't believe God could have made us perfect so I don't not love God because He didn't make us perfect. I believe whole heartedly that He couldn't and I appreciate that. I just simply want your explanation under your belief system as to why God would not create us perfect given that you believe he could have made us perfect and that he can create anything from nothing.

I'm not hung up on suffering at all. I simply bring it up as a logical response to your belief that God could have made us perfect but chose not to. I bring up the fact that a loving God who could make us perfect without all the pain, suffering and death would logically choose to simply make us perfect in every way so that we would not need to go through that. But since I already believe that God couldn't create us perfect, I do understand the growth that can come out of experiencing pain, suffering and even death.

Not true, I am only trying to solicit a response to why, if you believe God has the power to make us perfect in all ways, why He would not choose to do so. I already believe that He couldn't make us perfect. I believe that pain, suffering and death have a purpose for we imperfect beings and that is for our eternal growth and progression. But since you believe God could have made us perfect, I want from you good reasoning according to your belief system why he chose not to make us perfect.

I personally do see pain, suffering and death as way for us to come to greater knowledge, wisdom and understanding. But if, according to your belief system, God could have made us with a perfect knowledge, wisdom and understanding without all the pain, suffering , and death, why he chose to do so. So far I haven't seen you truly answer this without turning on me.

These are your mistakes to make. My obligation has been satisfied.