If the US healthcare system is the best and socialism is the worst

[Syphon]

Yep, our country is made of people who did that very thing. Left conditions they couldl not change to a better life here in America. The reason the right never gets anything done is because you idiot liberals block us at every turn. But, no matter, I do as I please and strive to do the opposite of what any liberal wants. I don't "go green" by the way either. Actually I go brown. Most days. I drive a nice big car that eats lots of gas. I use nongreen wood -- anything against the liberal teachings. I'm not a vegetarian either. I believe in hunting too. In fact: "save an elk, eat a liberal" or "save a cow, eat a vegetarian"

how many times has the GOP used filibusters in the senate since Obama took office??
GOP Filibuster Record: Republicans Using Obstruction Tool With Astonishing Frequency
The Heathen Republican: On Unprecedented Republican Filibusters of Obama

and you claim that its liberals who are holding up change? bwhahahahaha thats a good one.....

so your philosophy is to do the exact oppositie of what liberals do? thats a good governing philosophy.... im against anything they are for and for anything they are against. im glad youve learned to think for self...

Well for the first two years never because the Dems had a filibuster proof majority.
ANy other stupid questions?

the filibuster proof majority lasted 134 days on paper and 49 days in reality.
The Democrats’ 134-Day Supermajority | PoliPundit.com

Obamacare is the product of a brief moment of total Democratic dominance in Washington. Key to that dominance was a 60-seat, filibuster-proof Senate majority. It wasn’t a sure bet for Democrats; despite victories in 2008, the party’s hopes for that majority depended on the outcome of a contested race in Minnesota. After a controversial recount, Al Franken became the 60th Democratic senator on July 7, 2009, giving Democrats an unassailable edge.
But that majority disappeared just 49 days later when, on August 25, 2009, Massachusetts Democratic Sen. Ted Kennedy died.

Al Franken made that 60th senator but was not made a full senator until july 7th. 49 days later Ted Kennedy died.

anything you need to be proven wrong on?

 

[Meister]

I understand it perfectly. 2 years ago, my brother spent a week in the ICU after he almost died from an infection that no dentist would treat because my brother was unemployed and had no insurance.

There are thousands of anecdotes, just like that.

But as someone who's worked with his hands his entire life, I've learned, you fill in the cracks where you find them.

You don't just throw your hands in the air and say," Well, that's just the way it is."

That's a quitter/loser mantra.

Imagine if our Founding Fathers had just thrown their hands in the air and accepted it all.

No, they were men of action, as we must be again.

Couldn't your brother afford insurance, or did he just elect not to purchase insurance?

There are a lot of Americans who elect not to have insurance because of their young age.

Affordable insurance can be obtained with the help of government through some mandates and getting out of the way of competition. The government insurance is not the answer to this problem we're facing.

No he had lost his job when the company he worked for shipped the jobs from his plant down to Mexico.

I don't know if anyone's ever seen how much it costs to extend health benefits after you've been laid off, but it eats up more than half of unemployment. Getting on a government program takes time, and though he had applied, it still took two months to get on it. The infection hit him about three weeks in. His employer hadn't offered dental, so my brother always paid for his kids to go first and then of money was left over, he would go himself. It had been awhile this time around.

I had offered to help him out when he lost his job, but my brother doesn't like charity and thought he'd be back to work right away.

He had to be forced by his wife and kids to even go to the emergency room the night he did go. He said he'd wait till morning, but in reality, he knew the bill would be more than he could pay and didn't want that over their heads as well.

The doctors told us if he had waited even that one extra night, he'd be dead now.

He is since better. He dd find a job almost six months after the incident, driving trick and has since been promoted to head of his office, which he says is just a fancy was to say he's the dispatcher.

The bill for 1 week hospital stay that saved his life was almost $300,000 dollars, which will hang over his head the rest of his life.

Perhaps the government should have a safety net for people that are in the position that your brother was in. It wouldn't take such a broad implementation as what is being thrown at us. I believe that most Americans would be in favor of a safety net approach regarding the issue.

 

[Meister]

It seems that some on this thread would rather play politics and a gotchya than try and debate an issue. I'm not talking about you, Vida.

 

[dblack]

Perhaps the government should have a safety net for people that are in the position that your brother was in. It wouldn't take such a broad implementation as what is being thrown at us. I believe that most Americans would be in favor of a safety net approach regarding the issue.

This is the problem with almost every health care discussion. We have two distinct, and largely separate, problems with health care. One involves safety net issues - what to do about health care for the poor and indigent, and the other is what to do about spiraling health care inflation. The answer to those questions don't have much overlap, and tend to conflict. We should at least be specific about which problem we're trying to solve when proposing solutions.

 

[Meister]

Perhaps the government should have a safety net for people that are in the position that your brother was in. It wouldn't take such a broad implementation as what is being thrown at us. I believe that most Americans would be in favor of a safety net approach regarding the issue.

This is the problem with almost every health care discussion. We have two distinct, and largely separate, problems with health care. One involves safety net issues - what to do about health care for the poor and indigent, and the other is what to do about spiraling health care inflation. The answer to those questions don't have much overlap, and tend to conflict. We should at least be specific about which problem we're trying to solve when proposing solutions.

Agreed, I think we could have open borders between the states for competition and have a safety net for the less fortunate.
I have always said that the government is part of the solution, but the government isn't the solution.

 

[Syphon]

Deception:

Entitlement programs are bringing Europe to it's knees. National Health Care has become unsustainable. If you don't get it Germany, Great Britain and France finally have.
Germany
Chancellor Merkel, something of a political acrobat, was previously allied in coalition with leftist Social Democrats. She's now resisting calls from the Free Democrats to get off the state-pulled health-care train. The FDP's spokesman on health, Daniel Bahr, wants a "shift in direction away from state-run medicine." Why? Because "the current financial figures have showed us that the health-care fund doesn't work."
Germany's Socialized Health-Care System Isn't Working - WSJ.com

Great Britain
In a document, or white paper, outlining the plan, the government admitted that the changes would “cause significant disruption and loss of jobs.” But it said: “The current architecture of the health system has developed piecemeal, involves duplication and is unwieldy. Liberating the N.H.S., and putting power in the hands of patients and clinicians, means we will be able to effect a radical simplification, and remove layers of management.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/europe/25britain.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

France
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com

all three of those country's still pay less for their health care then the US.

The UK spends $2,560 per person
Germany spends $3,174 per person
France spends $3,040 per person
The US spends $6,096 per person
(as of 2007)
Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 — Infoplease.com

The US spends $7,960 per person
(as of 2009)
Spending: U.S. spends whopping amount on healthcare - Los Angeles Times

Comparing U.S. Healthcare Spending with Other OECD Countries - Seeking Alpha

so when those countries end up spending roughly as much as we do, then we can compare apples to apples. since they spend less than half of what we spend, an increase in costs would need to jump 100% in order to have a direct comparison.

Those countries are not in the best shape economically partly due to the healthcare they have. Germany rations their healthcare....and some of the doctors have to close their doors until the next funding distribution.

yet no one in those countries has to declare bankruptcy or lose their home due to medical bills.
how much better would our economy be if people did lose everything due to medical bills?

» Medical Illness Causes a Bankruptcy Every 15 Seconds - Better Bankruptcy Blog

According to one research study, illness and medical bills were linked to at least 62.1% of all personal bankruptcies in 2007. Based on 2010 bankruptcy statistics, medical illnesses was responsible for 940,000 bankruptcies which involved over 2.547 million Americans.

 

[Meister]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

 

[Syphon]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

health care is a huge issue. i ended up in the ER due to food poising while on a business trip (in Chicago of all places). if i had not had insurance, my 3 hours stay would have cost $4500. what average american has $4500 sitting in the bank if they get food poisoning and end up in the hospital?

 

[Ropey]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

health care is a huge issue. i ended up in the ER due to food poising while on a business trip (in Chicago of all places). if i had not had insurance, my 3 hours stay would have cost $4500. what average american has $4500 sitting in the bank if they get food poisoning and end up in the hospital?

No one is saying health care is not an issue.

However, expanding government controls in order to deal with this issue is another issue.

 

[Meister]

all three of those country's still pay less for their health care then the US.

The UK spends $2,560 per person
Germany spends $3,174 per person
France spends $3,040 per person
The US spends $6,096 per person
(as of 2007)
Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 — Infoplease.com

The US spends $7,960 per person
(as of 2009)
Spending: U.S. spends whopping amount on healthcare - Los Angeles Times

Comparing U.S. Healthcare Spending with Other OECD Countries - Seeking Alpha

so when those countries end up spending roughly as much as we do, then we can compare apples to apples. since they spend less than half of what we spend, an increase in costs would need to jump 100% in order to have a direct comparison.

Those countries are not in the best shape economically partly due to the healthcare they have. Germany rations their healthcare....and some of the doctors have to close their doors until the next funding distribution.

yet no one in those countries has to declare bankruptcy or lose their home due to medical bills.
how much better would our economy be if people did lose everything due to medical bills?

» Medical Illness Causes a Bankruptcy Every 15 Seconds - Better Bankruptcy Blog

According to one research study, illness and medical bills were linked to at least 62.1% of all personal bankruptcies in 2007. Based on 2010 bankruptcy statistics, medical illnesses was responsible for 940,000 bankruptcies which involved over 2.547 million Americans.

Just because the individuals aren't...the entire countries aren't far from bankruptcies in many cases.

Also:


Nearly all hospital-based doctors are salaried, and those salaries are part of hospital budgets that are negotiated each year between hospitals and "sickness funds" — the 240 nonprofit insurance companies that cover nearly nine out of 10 Germans through their jobs. (About 10 percent, who are generally higher income, opt out of the main system to buy insurance from for-profit companies. A small fraction get tax-subsidized care.)

Office-based doctors in Germany operate much like U.S. physicians do. They're private entrepreneurs who get a fee from insurers for every visit and every procedure they perform. The big difference is that groups of office-based physicians in every region negotiate with insurers to arrive at collective annual budgets.

Those doctor budgets get divided into quarterly amounts — a limited pot of money for each region. Once doctors collectively use up that money, that's it — there's no more until the next quarter.
Keeping German Doctors On A Budget Lowers Costs : NPR

 

[Meister]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

health care is a huge issue. i ended up in the ER due to food poising while on a business trip (in Chicago of all places). if i had not had insurance, my 3 hours stay would have cost $4500. what average american has $4500 sitting in the bank if they get food poisoning and end up in the hospital?

No one is saying health care is not an issue.

However, expanding government controls in order to deal with this issue is another issue.

He has a hard time comprehending what is actually being said, Ropey.

 

[Meister]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

health care is a huge issue. i ended up in the ER due to food poising while on a business trip (in Chicago of all places). if i had not had insurance, my 3 hours stay would have cost $4500. what average american has $4500 sitting in the bank if they get food poisoning and end up in the hospital?

I had food poisoning...I just rode the wave with it, and ate the next day. Didn't cost me anything but the time for a phone call to the place where I ate and let them know.

 

[Syphon]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

health care is a huge issue. i ended up in the ER due to food poising while on a business trip (in Chicago of all places). if i had not had insurance, my 3 hours stay would have cost $4500. what average american has $4500 sitting in the bank if they get food poisoning and end up in the hospital?

No one is saying health care is not an issue.

However, expanding government controls in order to deal with this issue is another issue.

whats your solution?

the free market itself has already shown it cant control costs. health care costs have risen 14% on average since 1990.

 

[dblack]

Perhaps the government should have a safety net for people that are in the position that your brother was in. It wouldn't take such a broad implementation as what is being thrown at us. I believe that most Americans would be in favor of a safety net approach regarding the issue.

This is the problem with almost every health care discussion. We have two distinct, and largely separate, problems with health care. One involves safety net issues - what to do about health care for the poor and indigent, and the other is what to do about spiraling health care inflation. The answer to those questions don't have much overlap, and tend to conflict. We should at least be specific about which problem we're trying to solve when proposing solutions.

Agreed, I think we could have open borders between the states for competition and have a safety net for the less fortunate.
I have always said that the government is part of the solution, but the government isn't the solution.

The really frustrating irony, in my view, is that the congressional power being held up as justification for the insurance mandate, the commerce clause, could be used for its intended purpose here to bust up the legal barriers to competition implemented at the state level. That's exactly how federal government should be intervening, not by micromanaging how individuals pay for their health care.

 

[Syphon]

I really feel that the healthcare issue isn't so much about the people, but it is about expanding the government giving way too much power over our lives.

health care is a huge issue. i ended up in the ER due to food poising while on a business trip (in Chicago of all places). if i had not had insurance, my 3 hours stay would have cost $4500. what average american has $4500 sitting in the bank if they get food poisoning and end up in the hospital?

I had food poisoning...I just rode the wave with it, and ate the next day. Didn't cost me anything but the time for a phone call to the place where I ate and let them know.

yup, well when you end up violent vomiting for over and hour straight, they usually call 911. i was just fortunate that it wasnt as serious as it looked. that didnt change the fact that was in the ER for 3 hours. and had a huge hospital bill

 

[Meister]

health care is a huge issue. i ended up in the ER due to food poising while on a business trip (in Chicago of all places). if i had not had insurance, my 3 hours stay would have cost $4500. what average american has $4500 sitting in the bank if they get food poisoning and end up in the hospital?

I had food poisoning...I just rode the wave with it, and ate the next day. Didn't cost me anything but the time for a phone call to the place where I ate and let them know.

yup, well when you end up violent vomiting for over and hour straight, they usually call 911. i was just fortunate that it wasnt as serious as it looked. that didnt change the fact that was in the ER for 3 hours. and had a huge hospital bill

I was pulling off the freeway going from Spokane to Coeur d'Alene vomiting, but I knew it wasn't life threatening....uncomfortable...yes.

 

[Meister]

This is the problem with almost every health care discussion. We have two distinct, and largely separate, problems with health care. One involves safety net issues - what to do about health care for the poor and indigent, and the other is what to do about spiraling health care inflation. The answer to those questions don't have much overlap, and tend to conflict. We should at least be specific about which problem we're trying to solve when proposing solutions.

Agreed, I think we could have open borders between the states for competition and have a safety net for the less fortunate.
I have always said that the government is part of the solution, but the government isn't the solution.

The really frustrating irony, in my view, is that the congressional power being held up as justification for the insurance mandate, the commerce clause, could be used for its intended purpose here to bust up the legal barriers to competition implemented at the state level. That's exactly how federal government should be intervening, not by micromanaging how individuals pay for their health care.

You and I are mirroring the same when it comes to the solution of healthcare, dblack.


The politicians know that it would be a solution, but that's not what's on their agenda. This is why I feel it's more about the expansion of government and not about the people.

 

[Ropey]

health care is a huge issue. i ended up in the ER due to food poising while on a business trip (in Chicago of all places). if i had not had insurance, my 3 hours stay would have cost $4500. what average american has $4500 sitting in the bank if they get food poisoning and end up in the hospital?

No one is saying health care is not an issue.

However, expanding government controls in order to deal with this issue is another issue.

He has a hard time comprehending what is actually being said, Ropey.

The individual mandate is a fundamental shift in choice with the oversight a strong shade of a Marxist socialist attachment. At least Romney's mandate was a State mandate and that means it was left to the State to decide. A Federal Individual Mandate legislated by the Judiciary takes even that choice away.

Shades of Roe vs Wade but in far deeper waters.

 

[UpAndAbout]

I had food poisoning...I just rode the wave with it, and ate the next day. Didn't cost me anything but the time for a phone call to the place where I ate and let them know.

yup, well when you end up violent vomiting for over and hour straight, they usually call 911. i was just fortunate that it wasnt as serious as it looked. that didnt change the fact that was in the ER for 3 hours. and had a huge hospital bill

I was pulling off the freeway going from Spokane to Coeur d'Alene vomiting, but I knew it wasn't life threatening....uncomfortable...yes.

I too contracted Salmonella from the Fair. Didn't cost me $4500. Push Gatorade and ride it out. If you go into the ER anywhere and you have no insurance, they will still treat you. They can give you samples of meds and write off the rest of it. That's the law. They HAVE to treat you whether you can pay or not. Wahlgreen's and Walmart give you quite a few generic meds for $4.00. Oh but i forgot liberals hate Walmart and Wahlgreen's might just be run by rich people. Oh well. Drink gatorade then the next time.

 

[Syphon]

yup, well when you end up violent vomiting for over and hour straight, they usually call 911. i was just fortunate that it wasnt as serious as it looked. that didnt change the fact that was in the ER for 3 hours. and had a huge hospital bill

I was pulling off the freeway going from Spokane to Coeur d'Alene vomiting, but I knew it wasn't life threatening....uncomfortable...yes.

I too contracted Salmonella from the Fair. Didn't cost me $4500. Push Gatorade and ride it out. If you go into the ER anywhere and you have no insurance, they will still treat you. They can give you samples of meds and write off the rest of it. That's the law. They HAVE to treat you whether you can pay or not. Wahlgreen's and Walmart give you quite a few generic meds for $4.00. Oh but i forgot liberals hate Walmart and Wahlgreen's might just be run by rich people. Oh well. Drink gatorade then the next time.

apparently you dont know much about how the health care industry works....