If the US healthcare system is the best and socialism is the worst

[dblack]

YOU FUCKING IDIOT! YOU ALREADY 'PICK UP THE TAB' FOR THE MEDICAL EXPENSIVES OF EVERY UNINSURED PERSON WHO HITS THE LOCAL EMERGENCY ROOM OF A HOSPITAL!

First of all this simply isn't true. When the shouting dies down we see that most uninsured medical expenses are paid - something like two-thirds in the study I read. Granted that does leave a significant portion who default or don't pay all their bills, but these aren't the people who will be buying insurance because of the mandate. These are the people too poor to buy insurance or people who are shut out of the insurance game due to pre-existing conditions. The question is, what should we do about those people?

Let's go ahead and presume government should do something about it ('cause clearly government is there to solve all our problems). If that's the goal, we should take all the money the PPACA shovels into the coffers of the insurance industry and instead give it directly the the people currently shut out of insurance to spend on medical care (not for insurance). We could do a helluva job beefing up the safety net with all the money we're getting ready to flush down the toilet on the ACA. Then, for the rest of us, we can address the other urgent problem, runaway health care inflation, with real market reforms to bring prices down. The point is, they're two different problems that demand different solutions.

 

[taichiliberal]

We're, what, eight posts away from the story of a man who couldn't buy health insurance due to insurance companies saying no and it's already faded from your consciousness? I realize you consistently approach this issue with a laser-like focus on some hypothetical segment of the population that will never get sick--some riskless profile that can get custom-tailored insurance and has all leverage in any market transaction. Then I'm sure that interacting with the health sector seems equivalent to ordering a pizza.

But the rest of us live on planet earth. Your deregulated utopia will always empower the insurers and providers relative to the consumer. Make useless insurance designed for the lowest risk enrollees the industry standard and watch access to care erode. Take away EMTALA and you'll no longer get to tout the "full medical attention - including last minute efforts to save him" the uninsured man receives.

Returning to a market built on bad incentives isn't going to help anyone but the insurance companies that benefit from that structure.

Tough fucking shit.

Contrary to your communistic belief, you do not have any right to make a third party pick up the tab for your expenses.

Oh, and nobody said anything about Utopia....If anyone is pimping that concept, it's know-it-all collectivist authoritarian dickweeds like you.

If you look at history it has been only those who turned out to be authoritarian dictators of the most ruthless variety who promised equality, fairness, justice, and 'Utopia' if the people would just put them into power. Amin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Castro, Chavez, etc. etc. etc. Every single one of them, in one way or another, obtained power by promising the people some form of free stuff or that the government would do something for them.

The Founders gave us a government that did not assign us our rights, but that recognized and secured our right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness etc. The government would not give us anything but would ensure that nobody would be allowed to hinder our going after whatever we wanted to have nor would it limit what we would be able to acquire so long as we didn't violate somebody else's rights in the process.

That concept produced the most free, most industrious, most successful, most generous, most prosperous people the world had ever known. Even the poor among us looked rich to the poor of other nations. Nobody expected anybody to give them anything, but most hoped to have it by their own efforts and ambition.

Somewhere along the way we lost that unique vision and exceptionalism and now we have people thinking the world owes them health care. And a whole lot of other stuff.

And we all are poorer because of that.

Man, you neocon parrots do love to shovel the steaming loads, don't cha?

As it stands under the pre-reform system, YOU AND I PAID FOR EVERY PERSON WHO HAD TO USE AN EMERGENCY ROOM BUT DID NOT HAVE INSURANCE OR THE MEANS TO FULLY PAY FOR IT....whether they were illegals or bonafide citizens.

All this wailing about paying a tax IF YOU DO NOT WANT MEDICAL INSURANCE actually affects a VERY TINY portion of the population. I have yet to meet a young middle/working class family who can afford ALL THE MEDICAL COSTS of raising their kids (let alone taking care of themselves) based SOLELY on their salaries.

What all the ballyhoo is about is coming from the insurance lobbies, who do not like competition from the federal gov't or being kept from screwing over their clients like they traditionally have been (again, just ask Dr. Peelo or Wendell Potter).....so they get their PR people to sell this "socialist gov't takeover" distortion of the Healthcare Reform bill to willfully ignorant mules like YOU FOXY...feeding on your prejudicial attitude towards Obama and/or democrats and liberals in general.

Grow up, Foxy.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Translation: this dumbfuck doesn't know what's going on, and will stall endlessly rather than do his own homework. Well, since I'm prone to humiliate right wing blowhards like Todd, I'll break tradition. Here's proof of the Greece/Goldman Sachs link

Goldman Secret Greece Loan Shows Two Sinners as Client Unravels - Bloomberg

Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted=all

And as to the subprime mortgage fiasco in relation to the EU:

Four Parallels Between Europe's Debt, Sub-Prime Mortgage Crises - Forbes

Part 5-II: Why Did the Credit Crisis Spread to Global Markets? | University of Iowa Center for International Finance and Development

And now that I've dispensed with this little detour, let us all not forget that neocons/teabaggers/libertarians STILL cannot fault the Obama Healthcare Reform beyond speculation and denial of the previous reality of our healthcare industry....just ask Dr. Peelo and Wendall Potter.

But suspect that Todd will somehow just avoid acknowledging any facts that disprove his arsenal of talking points, and just parrot squawk his usual drivel and dodges.

Translation: this dumbfuck doesn't know what's going on, but enough about you.

wow, this is the BEST Todd can do in a retort?

"Wall Street tactics akin to the ones that fostered subprime mortgages in America have worsened the financial crisis shaking Greece and undermining the euro by enabling European governments to hide their mounting debts."

Goldman helping Greece hide their debt doen't make their debt bigger.
Borrowing more makes their debt bigger.

Todd, you stupid bastard...the chronology of the posts shows that I stated IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that Goldman helped Greece get into the EU though chicanery WHEN GREECE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ADMITTED. It's UNDERSTOOD that Greece's financial situation was shaky to begin with, AS THE ARTICLES POINT OUT IN DETAIL. The chronology of the posts shows YOU stating that THIS WAS NOT THE CASE. Clearly, you don't understand what the hell is going on, and are now trying to hide your error by making moot points. You've failed in that attempt, Todd.

"but with a little help from Goldman Sachs, they got in....which essentially made them a grave risk to the EU market"

Yeah, Greece is a threat to the EU. The EU should have never allowed them to join. Stupid EU.

Another pointless blurb by Todd as (Again) they would NOT have gotten in without the fast shuffle by Goldman Sachs, as my links duly point out.

The bankrupt Greek government wasn't buying American mortgage securities with the money they didn't have.

I didn't say they did, stupid. The chronology of the posts CLEARLY shows me stating that when the EU banks bought into those toxic USA mortgage securities, it screwed them and their members royally...with Greece being the more vulnerable. READ THE ARTICLES CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY, TODD....or get an adult near you to explain them.


Let me know if there's anything else I can clear up for you.

Yeah, Todd....keep telling yourself that!

Getting into the EU didn't screw Greece's economy.
Glad to clear up your confusion.

 

[taichiliberal]

He can't wait to repeat the "Ryan's plan is the end of medicare" even though he's been shown numerous times this is simply untrue.

Ryan's plan last year did end Medicare. Why do you think he had to put it back into his "new and improved" budget this year? Because it was there all along?

Turns out ending it outright wasn't particularly popular. Who knew?

Really? What was the new plan going to be called?
I guess Obama ended Medicare too since his plan changes the program.
Yeah, Ryan's plan was so unpopular he got Ron Wyden to sign on to it.

Read Posts #416 and 425, folks.

God help the synagog that his this imbecile as their "rabbi".

 

[taichiliberal]

Translation: this dumbfuck doesn't know what's going on, but enough about you.

wow, this is the BEST Todd can do in a retort?

"Wall Street tactics akin to the ones that fostered subprime mortgages in America have worsened the financial crisis shaking Greece and undermining the euro by enabling European governments to hide their mounting debts."

Goldman helping Greece hide their debt doen't make their debt bigger.
Borrowing more makes their debt bigger.

Todd, you stupid bastard...the chronology of the posts shows that I stated IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that Goldman helped Greece get into the EU though chicanery WHEN GREECE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ADMITTED. It's UNDERSTOOD that Greece's financial situation was shaky to begin with, AS THE ARTICLES POINT OUT IN DETAIL. The chronology of the posts shows YOU stating that THIS WAS NOT THE CASE. Clearly, you don't understand what the hell is going on, and are now trying to hide your error by making moot points. You've failed in that attempt, Todd.

"but with a little help from Goldman Sachs, they got in....which essentially made them a grave risk to the EU market"

Yeah, Greece is a threat to the EU. The EU should have never allowed them to join. Stupid EU.

Another pointless blurb by Todd as (Again) they would NOT have gotten in without the fast shuffle by Goldman Sachs, as my links duly point out.

The bankrupt Greek government wasn't buying American mortgage securities with the money they didn't have.

I didn't say they did, stupid. The chronology of the posts CLEARLY shows me stating that when the EU banks bought into those toxic USA mortgage securities, it screwed them and their members royally...with Greece being the more vulnerable. READ THE ARTICLES CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY, TODD....or get an adult near you to explain them.


Let me know if there's anything else I can clear up for you.

Yeah, Todd....keep telling yourself that!

Getting into the EU didn't screw Greece's economy.
Glad to clear up your confusion.

See folks, either Todd is just too fucking dumb or is just insipidly stubborn. Note how he repeats his disproved distortion as to what I wrote....DESPITE my dumbing it down for his Todd(ler) like brain. This is why the intellectual dishonest of folks like Todd will always be their undoing in a discussion were the audience can go back and follow the chronology to see precisely who said what.

I leave Todd to repeat his BS ad nauseum (complete with lies and dodges and insults)...hey, maybe Todd will just excerpt parts of my response for a "I know you are, but what am I" retort!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

Most of Europe and Greece have a kind of socialist or quasi socialist healthcare system that pays for pretty much everything getting people to give something like that up is next to impossible. The problem as Europe and Greece has shown is they are not sustainable sooner or later the people paying into the system are out paced by those collecting from it and it goes deeper and deeper into the red until it has to be bailed out or collaspes.

Wrong. What screwed Greece's economy was having the likes of Goldman Sach's fudge the books for it's admittance into the EU....and let's not forget all those American banks that mixed toxic packages of housing loans with their stable loans and then sold them on the international market.

What screwed Greece's economy was having the likes of Goldman Sach's fudge the books for it's admittance into the EU....

LOL!

 

[taichiliberal]

Most of Europe and Greece have a kind of socialist or quasi socialist healthcare system that pays for pretty much everything getting people to give something like that up is next to impossible. The problem as Europe and Greece has shown is they are not sustainable sooner or later the people paying into the system are out paced by those collecting from it and it goes deeper and deeper into the red until it has to be bailed out or collaspes.

Wrong. What screwed Greece's economy was having the likes of Goldman Sach's fudge the books for it's admittance into the EU....and let's not forget all those American banks that mixed toxic packages of housing loans with their stable loans and then sold them on the international market.

What screwed Greece's economy was having the likes of Goldman Sach's fudge the books for it's admittance into the EU....

LOL!

It's economy was ALREADY SHAKY to begin with, you chuckling chowderhead! Having Goldman Sachs cook the books to be admitted to the EU put the nail in the coffin, because the EU banks got screwed win the housing mortgage toxic packages. A matter of fact, a matter of history. But you've already been schooled on this http://www.usmessageboard.com/5008101-post416.html

This is the problem with dumbass neocon/teabagger/libertarian parrots like YOU, Todd...YOU can only mentally handle headlines and talking points...COMPREHENSIVE THINKING with ALL information is obviously beyond your capabilities, Todd. Goodnight and good luck, toddles.

 

[The Rabbi]

.YOU can only mentally handle headlines and talking points...COMPREHENSIVE THINKING with ALL information is obviously beyond your capabilities, Todd. Goodnight and good luck, toddles.

Pot, meet kettle....

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Wrong. What screwed Greece's economy was having the likes of Goldman Sach's fudge the books for it's admittance into the EU....and let's not forget all those American banks that mixed toxic packages of housing loans with their stable loans and then sold them on the international market.

What screwed Greece's economy was having the likes of Goldman Sach's fudge the books for it's admittance into the EU....

LOL!

It's economy was ALREADY SHAKY to begin with, you chuckling chowderhead! Having Goldman Sachs cook the books to be admitted to the EU put the nail in the coffin, because the EU banks got screwed win the housing mortgage toxic packages. A matter of fact, a matter of history. But you've already been schooled on this http://www.usmessageboard.com/5008101-post416.html

This is the problem with dumbass neocon/teabagger/libertarian parrots like YOU, Todd...YOU can only mentally handle headlines and talking points...COMPREHENSIVE THINKING with ALL information is obviously beyond your capabilities, Todd. Goodnight and good luck, toddles.

Greece was weakened by entering the EU?

 

[Oddball]

YOU FUCKING IDIOT! YOU ALREADY 'PICK UP THE TAB' FOR THE MEDICAL EXPENSIVES OF EVERY UNINSURED PERSON WHO HITS THE LOCAL EMERGENCY ROOM OF A HOSPITAL!

First of all this simply isn't true. When the shouting dies down we see that most uninsured medical expenses are paid - something like two-thirds in the study I read. Granted that does leave a significant portion who default or don't pay all their bills, but these aren't the people who will be buying insurance because of the mandate. These are the people too poor to buy insurance or people who are shut out of the insurance game due to pre-existing conditions. The question is, what should we do about those people?

Let's go ahead and presume government should do something about it ('cause clearly government is there to solve all our problems). If that's the goal, we should take all the money the PPACA shovels into the coffers of the insurance industry and instead give it directly the the people currently shut out of insurance to spend on medical care (not for insurance). We could do a helluva job beefing up the safety net with all the money we're getting ready to flush down the toilet on the ACA. Then, for the rest of us, we can address the other urgent problem, runaway health care inflation, with real market reforms to bring prices down. The point is, they're two different problems that demand different solutions.

But...But...But....That means everyone who doesn't carry insurance isn't an outright deadbeat, which totally puts the lie to the myth perpetrated and furthered by the medical Marxists.

We just can't have that!

 

[LilOlLady]

I was listening to callers on CSpan this morning and those that oppose the affordable healthcare plan is not about mandate but all about Obama and 99% of the village idiots had no clue what the plan was about.
Healthcare would be cheaper when all pay in to it.You pay a premium far less than you would pay a private healthcare plan now and you would get more for your money and not less. there would be no panel in washington to say what you cannot or can get. I heard the most ignorant ranting ever and it sounded like Rush and Foxnews.
I am benefitting now and my medical care is not planned by anyone but me and my doctor. I fell in the donut hole last years and for three months my medication cost me nothing. This month after i had paid so much my meds are freel One of the callers was on mandated medicare.
You pay less for your medical care and if you pay the fine you get nothing for your money.
If you go into er we all pay and we pay more.

 

[Meister]

I was listening to callers on CSpan this morning and those that oppose the affordable healthcare plan is not about mandate but all about Obama and 99% of the village idiots had no clue what the plan was about.
Healthcare would be cheaper when all pay in to it.You pay a premium far less than you would pay a private healthcare plan now and you would get more for your money and not less. there would be no panel in washington to say what you cannot or can get. I heard the most ignorant ranting ever and it sounded like Rush and Foxnews.
I am benefitting now and my medical care is not planned by anyone but me and my doctor. I fell in the donut hole last years and for three months my medication cost me nothing. This month after i had paid so much my meds are freel One of the callers was on mandated medicare.
You pay less for your medical care and if you pay the fine you get nothing for your money.
If you go into er we all pay and we pay more.

You have a perfect world scenario.....the government can't operate healthcare and never could in a perfect world. This country won't be able to afford this in the long run....mark my words.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

You can't be this stupid....

Statistically speaking, the US pays more per person for Health Care than any other country in the world and with the exception of cancer ( If you have cancer, your chances of survival is higher in the US than anywhere else ) we receive less benefit.

So we pay more for less.

Only an idiot would find that favorable.

True. And, interesting is that true conservatives are the ones who first started this conversion. Yep, its true that, once upon a time, GObP/Repubs believed people should be responsible for their own health care coverage. Even crazy Heritage was in favor of personal responsibility.

But, since it was passed on President Obama's watch, they all want to be able to get free care at the emergency room and force libs to pay their bills.

 

[dblack]

True. And, interesting is that true conservatives are the ones who first started this conversion. Yep, its true that, once upon a time, GObP/Repubs believed people should be responsible for their own health care coverage. Even crazy Heritage was in favor of personal responsibility.

Funny how conservatives and liberal politicians only seem to agree on policies that enrich their mutual benefactors. Why did liberals adopt a such boneheaded conservative plan?

 

[Syphon]

YOU FUCKING IDIOT! YOU ALREADY 'PICK UP THE TAB' FOR THE MEDICAL EXPENSIVES OF EVERY UNINSURED PERSON WHO HITS THE LOCAL EMERGENCY ROOM OF A HOSPITAL!

First of all this simply isn't true. When the shouting dies down we see that most uninsured medical expenses are paid - something like two-thirds in the study I read. Granted that does leave a significant portion who default or don't pay all their bills, but these aren't the people who will be buying insurance because of the mandate. These are the people too poor to buy insurance or people who are shut out of the insurance game due to pre-existing conditions. The question is, what should we do about those people?

Let's go ahead and presume government should do something about it ('cause clearly government is there to solve all our problems). If that's the goal, we should take all the money the PPACA shovels into the coffers of the insurance industry and instead give it directly the the people currently shut out of insurance to spend on medical care (not for insurance). We could do a helluva job beefing up the safety net with all the money we're getting ready to flush down the toilet on the ACA. Then, for the rest of us, we can address the other urgent problem, runaway health care inflation, with real market reforms to bring prices down. The point is, they're two different problems that demand different solutions.

It actually is true....

Health Coverage Costs Rise Due to Uninsured, U.S. Study Says - Bloomberg

Insured families in six states -- New Mexico, West Virginia, Oklahoma, Montana, Texas and Arkansas -- will pay more than $1,500 in additional premiums this year to cover the costs of patients who lack medical insurance, the report found. By 2010, the list will include five more states: Florida, Alaska, Idaho, Washington and Arizona.

These extra costs place unacceptable burdens on all families, as well as our small businesses and our medical providers,'' said Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius, a Democrat, in a statement. Kansas families will pay an additional $729 in premiums to cover the costs of the uninsured, the report found.

The report is from 2005. So they have obviously known about this for quite a while..

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I was listening to callers on CSpan this morning and those that oppose the affordable healthcare plan is not about mandate but all about Obama and 99% of the village idiots had no clue what the plan was about.
Healthcare would be cheaper when all pay in to it.You pay a premium far less than you would pay a private healthcare plan now and you would get more for your money and not less. there would be no panel in washington to say what you cannot or can get. I heard the most ignorant ranting ever and it sounded like Rush and Foxnews.
I am benefitting now and my medical care is not planned by anyone but me and my doctor. I fell in the donut hole last years and for three months my medication cost me nothing. This month after i had paid so much my meds are freel One of the callers was on mandated medicare.
You pay less for your medical care and if you pay the fine you get nothing for your money.
If you go into er we all pay and we pay more.

rw's here said I was lying when I said that some parts of the act are already in force. They had no idea that they could be saving money right now. They also didn't know they may be eligible to get money back from their insurance company.

The right wants to pay more and get less because they've been told a pack of lies. Further, they WANT to believe those lies because, just like the anybody but Obama" ignorance, if they learn how the Affordable Care Act benefits them, they would have to admit that limb-a-a-a, beck, faux are paid by the 1% to lie to the rest of us.

 

[Vidi]

What screwed Greece's economy was having the likes of Goldman Sach's fudge the books for it's admittance into the EU....

LOL!

It's economy was ALREADY SHAKY to begin with, you chuckling chowderhead! Having Goldman Sachs cook the books to be admitted to the EU put the nail in the coffin, because the EU banks got screwed win the housing mortgage toxic packages. A matter of fact, a matter of history. But you've already been schooled on this http://www.usmessageboard.com/5008101-post416.html

This is the problem with dumbass neocon/teabagger/libertarian parrots like YOU, Todd...YOU can only mentally handle headlines and talking points...COMPREHENSIVE THINKING with ALL information is obviously beyond your capabilities, Todd. Goodnight and good luck, toddles.

Greece was weakened by entering the EU?

It was weak to begin with. Then it hid its debt, with the help of Goldman Sachs, incurring more debt in the process.

Many of the people on my side make the mistake that is was Goldman that "caused" the Greek crisis, it's blatantly untrue. The issue with Holdman is that while Greece was a client, they bet against them and profited from it, which means they weren't serving their clients best interests in the matter. Not sure insider trading would apply in that case either.

But while we may see that as unethical, we don't know what went on behind closed doors and what warnings Goldman may have or not given to the Greek government.

 

[Vidi]

True. And, interesting is that true conservatives are the ones who first started this conversion. Yep, its true that, once upon a time, GObP/Repubs believed people should be responsible for their own health care coverage. Even crazy Heritage was in favor of personal responsibility.

Funny how conservatives and liberal politicians only seem to agree on policies that enrich their mutual benefactors. Why did liberals adopt a such boneheaded conservative plan?

For the same reason, liberals are now championing the originally Conservative idea of cap and trade, it's a good idea that can work.

 

[dblack]

It actually is true....

Nope. I was responding to taichiliberal's statement:

YOU ALREADY 'PICK UP THE TAB' FOR THE MEDICAL EXPENSIVES OF EVERY UNINSURED PERSON WHO HITS THE LOCAL EMERGENCY ROOM OF A HOSPITAL!

Which is obviously untrue. Uninsured people are still billed, and most of them end up paying. As I said, many don't, and that's a problem - but the mandate doesn't target those people. It targets people who have a decent income but for whatever reason don't buy insurance, exactly the people most likely to pay their bills. What's more, they're paying prices that are radically inflated, in large part due to the people who are playing the insurance game.

So this campaign to demonize people who are choosing not to have insurance, or choosing cheap 'catastrophic' only policies, is completely backassward. These people are doing exactly the right thing and looking for ways to save money by cutting out unnecessary middlemen (the insurance industry). They aren't driving health care inflation. If anything, it's our compulsive tendency to over-insure that's driving health care prices higher and higher.

 

[dblack]

True. And, interesting is that true conservatives are the ones who first started this conversion. Yep, its true that, once upon a time, GObP/Repubs believed people should be responsible for their own health care coverage. Even crazy Heritage was in favor of personal responsibility.

Funny how conservatives and liberal politicians only seem to agree on policies that enrich their mutual benefactors. Why did liberals adopt a such boneheaded conservative plan?

For the same reason, liberals are now championing the originally Conservative idea of cap and trade, it's a good idea that can work.

Or maybe it's because, when the pretense is peeled away, they're all corporatists with essentially the same goals.