If the US healthcare system is the best and socialism is the worst

[dblack]

Historically, setting minimum standards has not limited competition or consumer choice. No matter how many times you post it...and bold it...it doesnt make it true.

Of course it has. There's no way to avoid the logic. The whole point of standards is to limit non-standard options - to make them illegal. Is that really so difficult to recognize? What you're trying to say is that it's a limitation that's worth it because it limits our options to things that you think are better. But again I ask, what right do you have to force your idea of better on others?

 

[Vidi]

Historically, setting minimum standards has not limited competition or consumer choice. No matter how many times you post it...and bold it...it doesnt make it true.

Of course it has. There's no way to avoid the logic. The whole point of standards is to limit non-standard options - to make them illegal. Is that really so difficult to recognize? What you're trying to say is that it's a limitation that's worth it because it limits our options to things that you think are better. But again I ask, what right do you have to force your idea of better on others?

No the point of standards is to increase quality. It says you must provide these features in your produce at the bare minimum.

Like seat belts

or keeping a resturaunt rat and bug free

and what gives me the right?

I have the right because if you DONT have insurance my taxmoney must pay for your health care. Therefore, I have every right to demand you pay your way. I also have the right to demand that health coverage carries the bare minimum of coverage to prevent me paying for you yet again.

If you want to use my money for your health care, then Ive BOUGHT the right.

 

[dblack]

If you want to use my money for your health care, then Ive BOUGHT the right.

Well, I've never said I want to use your money for anything. So mind your own business. Deal?

This is why libertarians are so wary of the welfare state - it's invariably seen by meddlesome people as giving them (buying them) the right to bully other people.

 

[Vidi]

If you want to use my money for your health care, then Ive BOUGHT the right.

Well, I've never said I want to use your money for anything. So mind your own business. Deal?

No no you said that you should have a choice in what you buy...ok Im fine with that. But if you dont buy ENOUGH coverage, then I and the rest of us end up paying your way.

What gives you the right to reach into my wallet and take food off of my table?

If youre taking money from my family to provide your health coverage, then whos the real bully? the one stealing or the one demanding you stop?


Sidebar: I love firefly...Im assuming your browncoat title means you do too.

 

[taichiliberal]

Hey, life is tough. It is not the gov'ts job to subsidize the unemployed, uninsured or working folks who have blown their budget on cigs and beer.

And here we have this faux "rabbi" demonstrate the sheer stupidity of those who knee-jerk to healthcare reform at the prompting of the insurance companies and the absurd propaganda spewed by libertarian lunkheads and neocon numbskulls and teabaggers.

Let's deconstruct this "rabbi's" ignorant mental flatulence: unemployment insurance is paid for BY THE PEOPLE. You work for a company to create profit for that company...the owner takes a fraction of that profit and invests it in unimployment insurance...which enables said employees to continue to contribute to the economic infrastructure (pay bills, buy food, etc.) should the company fold or downsize. The gov't REGULATES this process...the gov't BY, FOR AND OF THE PEOPLE.

Next, the uninsured.....there is a plethora of information that points out a simple fact....if an uninsured person goes to the hospital, the taxpayers eventually pick up the bill. To prevent this, you have private and public insurance offered to the people, which is regulated by the gov't. As Wendall Potter and Dr. Peelo (among others) have pointed out, private insurance companies bereft of adequate gov't oversight have a tendency to screw over their customers. The current healthcare reform bill curtails insurance company chicanery, and essentially makes healthcare available to more people...and if you refuse healthcare insurance in general, then you pay a small tax FOR WHEN YOU WILL EVENTUALLY NEED HOSPITAL CARE. Now if you're one of those jackasses who thinks he'll go from 8 to 80 without a medical incident and then just suddenly drop dead, good luck with that fantasy...because the historical statistics are just not backing you up, let alone the potential thousands who think just like you (if they did, then the health insurance companies would be far less in number and profitability than they are).

And finally, the bigoted little barb that anyone who is in financial dire straits or on a tight budget is there because of sloth or gluttony or stupidity. Obviously, the "rabbi" was in a deep dark hole for the last 20 years or so when people who did everything right (prudent savings account, diverse investment portfolio, smart shopping consumers) got royally SCREWED by the system (the S&L scandal, ENRON, Madoff, the Wall St./mortgage banker scandal, corporate outsourcing). Now suddendly these folk who may have had like minded ideals like our "rabbi" here find themselves actually making choices as to whether to pay the mortgage/rent or the health insurance company that covers a needed dental visit, eye exam or (as I pointed out) ear exam.

So once again, with a little general review based in reality, we see that the author of the subject title of this thread along with our right wing rabid "rabbi" STILL have their heads firmly encased in the posterior of such neocon/teabagger/libertarian pundits and politicians as Limbaugh, Kristoff, Rand and Ryan. Carry on!

private insurance companies bereft of adequate gov't oversight

Anyone who thinks this is the case is too dumb to breathe.

Typical Todd...he doesn't know shit from shinola except what talking points he can skim from Fox News and similar pundits, so he just makes desperate general attacks.

I've already done your homework once on this thread, Todd....get off your lazy, bias ass and look into the "Reagan Revolution" and how he pulled he teeth on federal oversight regarding health care insurance companies.

And whill you're at it, try to logically and factually prove everything else I stated in my response to Rabbi...or continue to blow smoke as usual.

 

[Political Junky]

Some have yet to run out of other people's money. Soon though, soon.

you DO know that Germany has had socialized medicine since the END of WW2, right?

Are THEY running out of other people's money?

Way to prove you're an ignoramus.

Did a little research on your German healthcare:

Those doctor budgets get divided into quarterly amounts — a limited pot of money for each region. Once doctors collectively use up that money, that's it — there's no more until the next quarter.

It's a powerful incentive for doctors to exercise restraint — not to provide more care than is necessary. But often, the pot of money is exhausted before the end of the quarter. "I don't get paid at the moment," he said recently, near the end of a quarter. "I haven't been paid for what I'm doing for the last two or three weeks."

He has to wait until the beginning of the next quarter before the sickness funds will start paying the bills he submits. Some German doctors simply close their doors and take a vacation at the end of every quarter.
Leibl says he feels "abused, exploited in a way" by this system, "because the work we are doing actually is pretty demanding. And I have a lot of responsibilities. And I think that should reflect in what I get paid."

In some parts of Germany, doctors are going on strike over what they get paid.
Keeping German Doctors On A Budget Lowers Costs : NPR


I think that could be called rationing healthcare, don't you, Deceptive?

I'd think conservatives would love putting limits on expenses.

 

[dblack]

If you want to use my money for your health care, then Ive BOUGHT the right.

Well, I've never said I want to use your money for anything. So mind your own business. Deal?

No no you said that you should have a choice in what you buy...ok Im fine with that. But if you dont buy ENOUGH coverage, then I and the rest of us end up paying your way.

What gives you the right to reach into my wallet and take food off of my table?

If youre taking money from my family to provide your health coverage, then whos the real bully? the one stealing or the one demanding you stop?

As I said in my late edit, this is exactly why the welfare state is unwelcome 'generosity' - I haven't ask for it, and don't want it - primarily because of the strings that are always attached. All of the problems you're citing, presuming that I'm going to rob from you, can be easily solved without enslaving us all to the insurance companies. I suspect that most of us opposed to forced insurance will gladly sign waivers from whatever 'reaching into your wallet' you're imagining.

Now, if you'll kindly quit reaching into my wallet to finance all these big government regulation schemes, we might have found some agreement. I suspect it's still a deal you wont want to agree to.

Sidebar: I love firefly...Im assuming your browncoat title means you do too.

Best show ever on television, or could have been at the very least. Still holding out hope for more.

 

[Vidi]

Well, I've never said I want to use your money for anything. So mind your own business. Deal?

No no you said that you should have a choice in what you buy...ok Im fine with that. But if you dont buy ENOUGH coverage, then I and the rest of us end up paying your way.

What gives you the right to reach into my wallet and take food off of my table?

If youre taking money from my family to provide your health coverage, then whos the real bully? the one stealing or the one demanding you stop?

As I said in my late edit, this is exactly why the welfare state is unwelcome 'generosity' - I haven't ask for it, and don't want it - primarily because of the strings that are always attached. All of the problems you're citing, presuming that I'm going to rob from you, can be easily solved without enslaving us all to the insurance companies. I suspect that most of us opposed to forced insurance will gladly sign waivers from whatever 'reaching into your wallet' you're imagining.

Now, if you'll kindly quit reaching into my wallet to finance all these big government regulation schemes, we might have found some agreement. I suspect it's still a deal you wont want to agree to.

Sidebar: I love firefly...Im assuming your browncoat title means you do too.

Best show ever on television, or could have been at the very least. Still holding out hope for more.

Yeah like were just going to let you die after a car accident because you signed a waiver?

How would we even tracked that? An anti med-alert bracelet? Tag you with an implanted chip?

I think there might be some opposition to that...just saying



Sidebar:

I read on Blastr a few weeks ago that Joss is actually up for some sort of reunion...possible a mini series or another movie.


anyway, Ive got to drive home now. have to be back at work in 5 hours. fun chatting with you. I enjoy a good argument that doesnt devolve into silly insults.

 

[Oddball]

And here we have this faux "rabbi" demonstrate the sheer stupidity of those who knee-jerk to healthcare reform at the prompting of the insurance companies and the absurd propaganda spewed by libertarian lunkheads and neocon numbskulls and teabaggers.

Let's deconstruct this "rabbi's" ignorant mental flatulence: unemployment insurance is paid for BY THE PEOPLE. You work for a company to create profit for that company...the owner takes a fraction of that profit and invests it in unimployment insurance...which enables said employees to continue to contribute to the economic infrastructure (pay bills, buy food, etc.) should the company fold or downsize. The gov't REGULATES this process...the gov't BY, FOR AND OF THE PEOPLE.

Next, the uninsured.....there is a plethora of information that points out a simple fact....if an uninsured person goes to the hospital, the taxpayers eventually pick up the bill. To prevent this, you have private and public insurance offered to the people, which is regulated by the gov't. As Wendall Potter and Dr. Peelo (among others) have pointed out, private insurance companies bereft of adequate gov't oversight have a tendency to screw over their customers. The current healthcare reform bill curtails insurance company chicanery, and essentially makes healthcare available to more people...and if you refuse healthcare insurance in general, then you pay a small tax FOR WHEN YOU WILL EVENTUALLY NEED HOSPITAL CARE. Now if you're one of those jackasses who thinks he'll go from 8 to 80 without a medical incident and then just suddenly drop dead, good luck with that fantasy...because the historical statistics are just not backing you up, let alone the potential thousands who think just like you (if they did, then the health insurance companies would be far less in number and profitability than they are).

And finally, the bigoted little barb that anyone who is in financial dire straits or on a tight budget is there because of sloth or gluttony or stupidity. Obviously, the "rabbi" was in a deep dark hole for the last 20 years or so when people who did everything right (prudent savings account, diverse investment portfolio, smart shopping consumers) got royally SCREWED by the system (the S&L scandal, ENRON, Madoff, the Wall St./mortgage banker scandal, corporate outsourcing). Now suddendly these folk who may have had like minded ideals like our "rabbi" here find themselves actually making choices as to whether to pay the mortgage/rent or the health insurance company that covers a needed dental visit, eye exam or (as I pointed out) ear exam.

So once again, with a little general review based in reality, we see that the author of the subject title of this thread along with our right wing rabid "rabbi" STILL have their heads firmly encased in the posterior of such neocon/teabagger/libertarian pundits and politicians as Limbaugh, Kristoff, Rand and Ryan. Carry on!

private insurance companies bereft of adequate gov't oversight

Anyone who thinks this is the case is too dumb to breathe.

Typical Todd...he doesn't know shit from shinola except what talking points he can skim ....

OH....THE....IRONY!!!!!

 

[Oddball]

If you want to use my money for your health care, then Ive BOUGHT the right.

Well, I've never said I want to use your money for anything. So mind your own business. Deal?

No no you said that you should have a choice in what you buy...ok Im fine with that. But if you dont buy ENOUGH coverage, then I and the rest of us end up paying your way.

What gives you the right to reach into my wallet and take food off of my table?

If youre taking money from my family to provide your health coverage, then whos the real bully? the one stealing or the one demanding you stop?


Sidebar: I love firefly...Im assuming your browncoat title means you do too.

Telling me how much is or isn't "enough" coverage is dictating to me what to buy, comrade.

Oh, and BTW, my not carrying insurance doesn't automatically make me a deadbeat who won't pay his bills.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Get your head out of Limbaugh's ass and READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY what I wrote, chuckles.

But since you're too dense, let me dumb it down for you: Greece's financial state should have made it non-applicable to the EU....but with a little help from Goldman Sachs, they got in....which essentially made them a grave risk to the EU market.

The EU bought into the toxic packages that our banks were putting on the market a'la the housing loan debacle...so when that bubble burst, the EU suffered as well, and Greece being a weak link to begin with, went down.

Do some honest homework to verify what I'm saying, chuckles....because I'm damned tired of doing the legwork for willfully ignorant jokers like you.

The EU had their own housing loan debacles.
See Ireland and Spain.

No shit, sherlock...I never stated otherwise, nor does this change the facts regarding Greece and Goldman Sachs. That you make a moot point is just the stallings of the intellectually bankrupt neocon parrot who can't admit error on any level.

Still waiting for you to prove that Greece's economy was screwed by Goldman.
Or that Greece bought any US mortgages.
Keep trying!

Translation: this dumbfuck doesn't know what's going on, and will stall endlessly rather than do his own homework. Well, since I'm prone to humiliate right wing blowhards like Todd, I'll break tradition. Here's proof of the Greece/Goldman Sachs link

Goldman Secret Greece Loan Shows Two Sinners as Client Unravels - Bloomberg

Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted=all

And as to the subprime mortgage fiasco in relation to the EU:

Four Parallels Between Europe's Debt, Sub-Prime Mortgage Crises - Forbes

Part 5-II: Why Did the Credit Crisis Spread to Global Markets? | University of Iowa Center for International Finance and Development

And now that I've dispensed with this little detour, let us all not forget that neocons/teabaggers/libertarians STILL cannot fault the Obama Healthcare Reform beyond speculation and denial of the previous reality of our healthcare industry....just ask Dr. Peelo and Wendall Potter.

But suspect that Todd will somehow just avoid acknowledging any facts that disprove his arsenal of talking points, and just parrot squawk his usual drivel and dodges.

Translation: this dumbfuck doesn't know what's going on, but enough about you.

"Wall Street tactics akin to the ones that fostered subprime mortgages in America have worsened the financial crisis shaking Greece and undermining the euro by enabling European governments to hide their mounting debts."

Goldman helping Greece hide their debt doen't make their debt bigger.
Borrowing more makes their debt bigger.

"but with a little help from Goldman Sachs, they got in....which essentially made them a grave risk to the EU market"

Yeah, Greece is a threat to the EU. The EU should have never allowed them to join. Stupid EU.

The bankrupt Greek government wasn't buying American mortgage securities with the money they didn't have.
Let me know if there's anything else I can clear up for you.

 

[Vidi]

Well, I've never said I want to use your money for anything. So mind your own business. Deal?

No no you said that you should have a choice in what you buy...ok Im fine with that. But if you dont buy ENOUGH coverage, then I and the rest of us end up paying your way.

What gives you the right to reach into my wallet and take food off of my table?

If youre taking money from my family to provide your health coverage, then whos the real bully? the one stealing or the one demanding you stop?


Sidebar: I love firefly...Im assuming your browncoat title means you do too.

Telling me how much is or isn't "enough" coverage is dictating to me what to buy, comrade.

Oh, and BTW, my not carrying insurance doesn't automatically make me a deadbeat who won't pay his bills.

I'll tell you what I used to tell my employees, when your problems become my problems You may not like how I solve my problems.

 

[Political Junky]

Well, I've never said I want to use your money for anything. So mind your own business. Deal?

No no you said that you should have a choice in what you buy...ok Im fine with that. But if you dont buy ENOUGH coverage, then I and the rest of us end up paying your way.

What gives you the right to reach into my wallet and take food off of my table?

If youre taking money from my family to provide your health coverage, then whos the real bully? the one stealing or the one demanding you stop?


Sidebar: I love firefly...Im assuming your browncoat title means you do too.

Telling me how much is or isn't "enough" coverage is dictating to me what to buy, comrade.

Oh, and BTW, my not carrying insurance doesn't automatically make me a deadbeat who won't pay his bills.

Are you able to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to go through cancer treatment?

 

[dblack]

Are you able to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to go through cancer treatment?

I'm not asking you, or government, to pay - so it's a moot point.

 

[Political Junky]

Are you able to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to go through cancer treatment?

I'm not asking you, or government, to pay - so it's a moot point.

So, it's let you die?

 

[dblack]

Are you able to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to go through cancer treatment?

I'm not asking you, or government, to pay - so it's a moot point.

So, it's let you die?

You can do whatever you like. I don't plan on letting that happen, but if it does, it's your call. I certainly wouldn't want to hold a gun to your head - which is essentially what such mandates are all about.

 

[usmcstinger]

you think England is socialist? you think germany is socialist? you think france is socialist? you think canada is socialist?

Make a point.

all those countries are democracy's yet the provide health care as a public service. none of those democratic countries are making a move to the american system.

so it is not only socialist countries such as Cuba and China who have better state run health care, it is democratic nations as well.

if the american system was so grand, every country would adopt it..... so tell us why they arent.

China and Cuba are Communist Countries not socialists ones. Please cite a credible source to back up regarding your statements. Most people provide a link to their source.

Doctors warned parents about the possible long term effects of Ritalin. You are living proof that they were right.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

Britain is trying to overhaul its system... because its 'socialist' system is fucked. But please, don't let reality bite you in the ass.

I understand that Canada is as well...

link.....

 

[Vidi]

I'm not asking you, or government, to pay - so it's a moot point.

So, it's let you die?

You can do whatever you like. I don't plan on letting that happen, but if it does, it's your call. I certainly wouldn't want to hold a gun to your head - which is essentially what such mandates are all about.

Pretty brave to say when youre healthy. I doubt youd be as brave when youre sick.

 

[dblack]

Pretty brave to say when youre healthy. I doubt youd be as brave when youre sick.

That has no bearing on the argument.