If the US healthcare system is the best and socialism is the worst

[Vidi]

Pretty brave to say when youre healthy. I doubt youd be as brave when youre sick.

That has no bearing on the argument.

I disagree.

Everyone talks a big game when their illness is hypothetical. But if it becomes real everything changes.

Even Ron Pauls former campaign manager felt the sting of no insurance.

-----full disclosure: while every article I see says he died BECAUSE he didnt have health insurance, I have yet to see PROOF as to how his lack of insurance was the cause of his death...so Personally, Im not buying that as the cause of his death. I see that as bullshit rhetoric. I am only pointing you to this article because other people had to step up and pay his bills or his widow would be destitute.


Dead at 49 because he couldn't afford insurance: Terrible fate of Ron Paul aide emerges hours after Republican said state shouldn't provide free health care

Ron Pauls campaign chairman died with no

Ron Paul's Ex-Campaign Manager's Death Backdrop For Health Insurance Position


to the best of my knowledge, the bill was never fully paid ( but I could be wrong on that one )

 

[dblack]

Pretty brave to say when youre healthy. I doubt youd be as brave when youre sick.

That has no bearing on the argument.

I disagree.

Everyone talks a big game when their illness is hypothetical. But if it becomes real everything changes.

Even Ron Pauls former campaign manager felt the sting of no insurance.

This treads very close to personal insult territory, so it's a little hard take. It's also utter bullshit. But I'll ignore your insinuations and point out that the story of Ron Paul's campaign manager is actually a perfect case in point. He didn't rob you. He didn't ask you for a fucking thing. His family and friends pitched in to pay his bills voluntarily.

Reading this article (again) honestly makes me physically ill, and show the depths to which statists will stoop to advance their ugly agenda. It's the one of the worst examples of political propaganda I've read in years, opportunistically seizing on a personal tragedy to score political points - points based on sheer fabrications. Your willingness to pass it along is disappointing.

First of all, Kent Snyder didn't die because he didn't have insurance. He died due to unexpected complications from pneumonia. Unfortunately things like that happen. It will happen to all of us eventually, no matter how much insurance we have. It will happen to you. It will happen to me. Contrary to the lies of opportunistic journalists, he received full medical attention - including last minute efforts to save him - and there is no indication that he avoided care because he couldn't afford it. Lastly, his bills were paid in full by family and friends.

All this disgusting political attack has done is highlight how community compassion should be expressed - voluntarily and when necessary. Not pre-emptively at the point of a gun, which is what the welfare statists advocate. So how about you stow your petty stinginess and quit accusing me, and anyone advocating for freedom, of wanting to dig into your wallet. If I'm ever in need, I won't ask selfish assholes like you for a fucking thing.

Fortunately, most people aren't of your mindset. I, and most of my friends, are happy to help out people in need. And we're not interested in using the personal tragedy of others to promote political agendas designed to enrich corporate interests at the public's expense.

 

[Oddball]

So, it's let you die?

You can do whatever you like. I don't plan on letting that happen, but if it does, it's your call. I certainly wouldn't want to hold a gun to your head - which is essentially what such mandates are all about.

Pretty brave to say when youre healthy. I doubt youd be as brave when youre sick.

Appeals to emotion are also irrelevant to anything.

 

[drippinhun]

If socialist countries have a more copacetic form of healthcare....what's keeping you here?

Maybe he wants to make America a better country.

 

[Greenbeard]

All this disgusting political attack has done is highlight how community compassion should be expressed - voluntarily and when necessary. Not pre-emptively at the point of a gun, which is what the welfare statists advocate.

You've advocated "innovative" cut-rate insurance, you're undoubtedly fond of the underwriting rules that denied this man insurance coverage on the basis of a pre-existing condition, and you seem to find a certain nobility in relegating families to begging for money on the internet when their breadwinner racks up hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. Throw as many roadblocks up to accessing care as possible and pat yourself on the back for controlling costs.

And you've got the nerve to talk about others' "ugly agendas"?

 

[dblack]

You've advocated "innovative" cut-rate insurance, you're undoubtedly fond of the underwriting rules that denied this man insurance coverage on the basis of a pre-existing condition, and you seem to find a certain nobility in relegating families to begging for money on the internet when their breadwinner racks up hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt. Throw as many roadblocks up to accessing care as possible and pat yourself on the back for controlling costs.

And you've got the nerve to talk about others' "ugly agendas"?

I don't advocate "cut-rate" anything, so stow the strawman. I advocate the freedom of all of us to decide for ourselves how to live our lives. You want to make that decision for others.

Sorry, but I can't respect this sort of gravedancing. It's right up there with the Fred Phelps mob protesting the funerals of gay soldiers.

 

[Greenbeard]

I don't advocate "cut-rate" anything, so stow the strawman.

Bullshit. You've explicitly come out against minimum standards or consumer protections based on nothing more than a bankrupt political philosophy. You want to deregulate the industry and shift the balance of power away from the consumer and toward the insurer (inexplicably in the name of "freedom"), yet have the gall to bitch about evil plots to "enrich corporate interests at the public's expense. "

Maybe you don't realize this, but for many, many people this discussion isn't simply a delightful philosophical diversion on internet discussion boards. And ideological bumper sticker slogans aren't going to cut it when it comes to solving the problems we have.

 

[The Rabbi]

I don't advocate "cut-rate" anything, so stow the strawman.

Bullshit. You've explicitly come out against minimum standards or consumer protections based on nothing more than a bankrupt political philosophy. You want to deregulate the industry and shift the balance of power away from the consumer and toward the insurer (inexplicably in the name of "freedom"), yet have the gall to bitch about evil plots to "enrich corporate interests at the public's expense. "

Maybe you don't realize this, but for many, many people this discussion isn't simply a delightful philosophical diversion on internet discussion boards. And ideological bumper sticker slogans aren't going to cut it when it comes to solving the problems we have.

Gosh, deregeluating the industry and offering consumers real choices! Oh Noes! It's the end of the world.
Stick it, commie-boy.

 

[dblack]

I don't advocate "cut-rate" anything, so stow the strawman.

Bullshit. You've explicitly come out against minimum standards or consumer protections based on nothing more than a bankrupt political philosophy. You want to deregulate the industry and shift the balance of power away from the consumer and toward the insurer (inexplicably in the name of "freedom"), yet have the gall to bitch about evil plots to "enrich corporate interests at the public's expense. "

Wrong on all counts. Being against minimum standards isn't the same thing as being for cut-rate. I'm against imposing 'standards' at all. I'm just as opposed to 'maximum' standards. PPACA, which you consistently defend, does exactly what you accuse me of proposing. It takes power away from the consumer and hands it directly the corporate insurance cartel. It revokes the most important power a consumer has - the power to say "no" to shitty, overpriced services. It replaces that with 'regulation' that a consumer has virtually no power to influence outside of casting a meaningless vote for an unscrupulous politician every few years.

 

[Oddball]

I don't advocate "cut-rate" anything, so stow the strawman.

Bullshit. You've explicitly come out against minimum standards or consumer protections based on nothing more than a bankrupt political philosophy. You want to deregulate the industry and shift the balance of power away from the consumer and toward the insurer (inexplicably in the name of "freedom"), yet have the gall to bitch about evil plots to "enrich corporate interests at the public's expense. "

Maybe you don't realize this, but for many, many people this discussion isn't simply a delightful philosophical diversion on internet discussion boards. And ideological bumper sticker slogans aren't going to cut it when it comes to solving the problems we have.

Neither are copy-n-pastes of e-mail bomb releases from OIRA.

After that, if you're looking to an army of completely unaccountable politicians and bureaucrats to solve all the problems of the world, you're an even dumber party man lemming than I had thought....Which is saying something.

 

[The Rabbi]

I don't advocate "cut-rate" anything, so stow the strawman.

Bullshit. You've explicitly come out against minimum standards or consumer protections based on nothing more than a bankrupt political philosophy. You want to deregulate the industry and shift the balance of power away from the consumer and toward the insurer (inexplicably in the name of "freedom"), yet have the gall to bitch about evil plots to "enrich corporate interests at the public's expense. "

Maybe you don't realize this, but for many, many people this discussion isn't simply a delightful philosophical diversion on internet discussion boards. And ideological bumper sticker slogans aren't going to cut it when it comes to solving the problems we have.

Neither are copy-n-pastes of e-mail bomb releases from OIRA.

After that, if you're looking to an army of completely unaccountable politicians and bureaucrats to solve all the problems of the world, you're an even dumber party man lemming than I had thought....Which is saying something.

Is there anything dumber than a party-man lemming?
Greenbeard has proven himself the dunce of health care. He can't wait to repeat the "Ryan's plan is the end of medicare" even though he's been shown numerous times this is simply untrue.

 

[Greenbeard]

PPACA, which you consistently defend, does exactly what you accuse me of proposing. It takes power away from the consumer and hands it directly the corporate insurance cartel. It revokes the most important power a consumer has - the power to say "no" to shitty, overpriced services.

We're, what, eight posts away from the story of a man who couldn't buy health insurance due to insurance companies saying no and it's already faded from your consciousness? I realize you consistently approach this issue with a laser-like focus on some hypothetical segment of the population that will never get sick--some riskless profile that can get custom-tailored insurance and has all leverage in any market transaction. Then I'm sure that interacting with the health sector seems equivalent to ordering a pizza.

But the rest of us live on planet earth. Your deregulated utopia will always empower the insurers and providers relative to the consumer. Make useless insurance designed for the lowest risk enrollees the industry standard and watch access to care erode. Take away EMTALA and you'll no longer get to tout the "full medical attention - including last minute efforts to save him" the uninsured man receives.

Returning to a market built on bad incentives isn't going to help anyone but the insurance companies that benefit from that structure.

 

[Greenbeard]

He can't wait to repeat the "Ryan's plan is the end of medicare" even though he's been shown numerous times this is simply untrue.

Ryan's plan last year did end Medicare. Why do you think he had to put it back into his "new and improved" budget this year? Because it was there all along?

Turns out ending it outright wasn't particularly popular. Who knew?

 

[Oddball]

PPACA, which you consistently defend, does exactly what you accuse me of proposing. It takes power away from the consumer and hands it directly the corporate insurance cartel. It revokes the most important power a consumer has - the power to say "no" to shitty, overpriced services.

We're, what, eight posts away from the story of a man who couldn't buy health insurance due to insurance companies saying no and it's already faded from your consciousness? I realize you consistently approach this issue with a laser-like focus on some hypothetical segment of the population that will never get sick--some riskless profile that can get custom-tailored insurance and has all leverage in any market transaction. Then I'm sure that interacting with the health sector seems equivalent to ordering a pizza.

But the rest of us live on planet earth. Your deregulated utopia will always empower the insurers and providers relative to the consumer. Make useless insurance designed for the lowest risk enrollees the industry standard and watch access to care erode. Take away EMTALA and you'll no longer get to tout the "full medical attention - including last minute efforts to save him" the uninsured man receives.

Returning to a market built on bad incentives isn't going to help anyone but the insurance companies that benefit from that structure.

Tough fucking shit.

Contrary to your communistic belief, you do not have any right to make a third party pick up the tab for your expenses.

Oh, and nobody said anything about Utopia....If anyone is pimping that concept, it's know-it-all collectivist authoritarian dickweeds like you.

 

[Foxfyre]

PPACA, which you consistently defend, does exactly what you accuse me of proposing. It takes power away from the consumer and hands it directly the corporate insurance cartel. It revokes the most important power a consumer has - the power to say "no" to shitty, overpriced services.

We're, what, eight posts away from the story of a man who couldn't buy health insurance due to insurance companies saying no and it's already faded from your consciousness? I realize you consistently approach this issue with a laser-like focus on some hypothetical segment of the population that will never get sick--some riskless profile that can get custom-tailored insurance and has all leverage in any market transaction. Then I'm sure that interacting with the health sector seems equivalent to ordering a pizza.

But the rest of us live on planet earth. Your deregulated utopia will always empower the insurers and providers relative to the consumer. Make useless insurance designed for the lowest risk enrollees the industry standard and watch access to care erode. Take away EMTALA and you'll no longer get to tout the "full medical attention - including last minute efforts to save him" the uninsured man receives.

Returning to a market built on bad incentives isn't going to help anyone but the insurance companies that benefit from that structure.

Tough fucking shit.

Contrary to your communistic belief, you do not have any right to make a third party pick up the tab for your expenses.

Oh, and nobody said anything about Utopia....If anyone is pimping that concept, it's know-it-all collectivist authoritarian dickweeds like you.

If you look at history it has been only those who turned out to be authoritarian dictators of the most ruthless variety who promised equality, fairness, justice, and 'Utopia' if the people would just put them into power. Amin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Castro, Chavez, etc. etc. etc. Every single one of them, in one way or another, obtained power by promising the people some form of free stuff or that the government would do something for them.

The Founders gave us a government that did not assign us our rights, but that recognized and secured our right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness etc. The government would not give us anything but would ensure that nobody would be allowed to hinder our going after whatever we wanted to have nor would it limit what we would be able to acquire so long as we didn't violate somebody else's rights in the process.

That concept produced the most free, most industrious, most successful, most generous, most prosperous people the world had ever known. Even the poor among us looked rich to the poor of other nations. Nobody expected anybody to give them anything, but most hoped to have it by their own efforts and ambition.

Somewhere along the way we lost that unique vision and exceptionalism and now we have people thinking the world owes them health care. And a whole lot of other stuff.

And we all are poorer because of that.

 

[The Rabbi]

He can't wait to repeat the "Ryan's plan is the end of medicare" even though he's been shown numerous times this is simply untrue.

Ryan's plan last year did end Medicare. Why do you think he had to put it back into his "new and improved" budget this year? Because it was there all along?

Turns out ending it outright wasn't particularly popular. Who knew?

Really? What was the new plan going to be called?
I guess Obama ended Medicare too since his plan changes the program.
Yeah, Ryan's plan was so unpopular he got Ron Wyden to sign on to it.

 

[Greenbeard]

Yeah, Ryan's plan was so unpopular he got Ron Wyden to sign on to it.

Wyden didn't sign onto that plan. He's the one who persuaded Ryan to bring Medicare back in this year's proposal.

This year Ryan came out with this revamped plan in which the major difference and selling point from last time is that, unlike his earlier plan, Medicare is allowed to continue to exist under it. That, of course, is a tacit admission that everything said about his earlier Medicare Elimination Plan was indeed true. But that still doesn't seem to have sunken in with you.

 

[taichiliberal]

PPACA, which you consistently defend, does exactly what you accuse me of proposing. It takes power away from the consumer and hands it directly the corporate insurance cartel. It revokes the most important power a consumer has - the power to say "no" to shitty, overpriced services.

We're, what, eight posts away from the story of a man who couldn't buy health insurance due to insurance companies saying no and it's already faded from your consciousness? I realize you consistently approach this issue with a laser-like focus on some hypothetical segment of the population that will never get sick--some riskless profile that can get custom-tailored insurance and has all leverage in any market transaction. Then I'm sure that interacting with the health sector seems equivalent to ordering a pizza.

But the rest of us live on planet earth. Your deregulated utopia will always empower the insurers and providers relative to the consumer. Make useless insurance designed for the lowest risk enrollees the industry standard and watch access to care erode. Take away EMTALA and you'll no longer get to tout the "full medical attention - including last minute efforts to save him" the uninsured man receives.

Returning to a market built on bad incentives isn't going to help anyone but the insurance companies that benefit from that structure.

Tough fucking shit.

Contrary to your communistic belief, you do not have any right to make a third party pick up the tab for your expenses.

Oh, and nobody said anything about Utopia....If anyone is pimping that concept, it's know-it-all collectivist authoritarian dickweeds like you.

YOU FUCKING IDIOT! YOU ALREADY 'PICK UP THE TAB' FOR THE MEDICAL EXPENSIVES OF EVERY UNINSURED PERSON WHO HITS THE LOCAL EMERGENCY ROOM OF A HOSPITAL! I seem to recall you right wing retards wailing like stuck pigs about how all those uninsured, illegal aliens were causing local hospitals to fold because they were using the emergency room as their primary doctor....I guess you dopes figure those are the ONLY people doing so. Think again.

This is why you right wing parrots are so damned pathetic....you're not even smart enough to keep a logical connection between your various dogmas.

 

[taichiliberal]

private insurance companies bereft of adequate gov't oversight

Anyone who thinks this is the case is too dumb to breathe.

Typical Todd...he doesn't know shit from shinola except what talking points he can skim ....

OH....THE....IRONY!!!!!

And here's the entire response

http://www.usmessageboard.com/5008149-post425.html

As the chronology of the posts shows, I've already settled the hash of Todd, the Rabbi and Oddball. But since none of them can logically or factually disprove or refute what I say, you have intellectually bankrupt bumpkins like Oddball doing what you see here....sticking out his tongue and stamping his widdle feet. Pathetic, but not unexpected. Carry on.

 

[taichiliberal]

The EU had their own housing loan debacles.
See Ireland and Spain.

No shit, sherlock...I never stated otherwise, nor does this change the facts regarding Greece and Goldman Sachs. That you make a moot point is just the stallings of the intellectually bankrupt neocon parrot who can't admit error on any level.

Still waiting for you to prove that Greece's economy was screwed by Goldman.
Or that Greece bought any US mortgages.
Keep trying!

Translation: this dumbfuck doesn't know what's going on, and will stall endlessly rather than do his own homework. Well, since I'm prone to humiliate right wing blowhards like Todd, I'll break tradition. Here's proof of the Greece/Goldman Sachs link

Goldman Secret Greece Loan Shows Two Sinners as Client Unravels - Bloomberg

Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted=all

And as to the subprime mortgage fiasco in relation to the EU:

Four Parallels Between Europe's Debt, Sub-Prime Mortgage Crises - Forbes

Part 5-II: Why Did the Credit Crisis Spread to Global Markets? | University of Iowa Center for International Finance and Development

And now that I've dispensed with this little detour, let us all not forget that neocons/teabaggers/libertarians STILL cannot fault the Obama Healthcare Reform beyond speculation and denial of the previous reality of our healthcare industry....just ask Dr. Peelo and Wendall Potter.

But suspect that Todd will somehow just avoid acknowledging any facts that disprove his arsenal of talking points, and just parrot squawk his usual drivel and dodges.

Translation: this dumbfuck doesn't know what's going on, but enough about you.

wow, this is the BEST Todd can do in a retort?

"Wall Street tactics akin to the ones that fostered subprime mortgages in America have worsened the financial crisis shaking Greece and undermining the euro by enabling European governments to hide their mounting debts."

Goldman helping Greece hide their debt doen't make their debt bigger.
Borrowing more makes their debt bigger.

Todd, you stupid bastard...the chronology of the posts shows that I stated IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that Goldman helped Greece get into the EU though chicanery WHEN GREECE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ADMITTED. It's UNDERSTOOD that Greece's financial situation was shaky to begin with, AS THE ARTICLES POINT OUT IN DETAIL. The chronology of the posts shows YOU stating that THIS WAS NOT THE CASE. Clearly, you don't understand what the hell is going on, and are now trying to hide your error by making moot points. You've failed in that attempt, Todd.

"but with a little help from Goldman Sachs, they got in....which essentially made them a grave risk to the EU market"

Yeah, Greece is a threat to the EU. The EU should have never allowed them to join. Stupid EU.

Another pointless blurb by Todd as (Again) they would NOT have gotten in without the fast shuffle by Goldman Sachs, as my links duly point out.

The bankrupt Greek government wasn't buying American mortgage securities with the money they didn't have.

I didn't say they did, stupid. The chronology of the posts CLEARLY shows me stating that when the EU banks bought into those toxic USA mortgage securities, it screwed them and their members royally...with Greece being the more vulnerable. READ THE ARTICLES CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY, TODD....or get an adult near you to explain them.


Let me know if there's anything else I can clear up for you.

Yeah, Todd....keep telling yourself that!