If you use the term "crap policies"...

[Erand7899]

Do yourself a favor...educate yourself.

Ironic that you would use that term, since I actually do have to educate myself by taking annual training on a variety of topics that include health insurance, health care administration and Medicare. Which is why I don't like the "plans" offered by either "side". What I don't do is push one side based on politics. How about you?

You can divert all you want. The fact remains that HHS told Obama this was going to happen, and now you left wing partisan ideologues are claiming that it's okay if people lose their plans because they're lousy plans anyway. You can spin his lies all you want, you can plant all the straw man arguments you want - you're defending lies. Have fun with that.

.

I don't 'side' with anyone but the people of this country. Insurance cartels are the source of the problem. If you are so 'educated' about health insurance, then the term 'medical loss ratio' should be very familiar to you. Every other industrialized nation has figured out that there is no 'free market' solution to health insurance. Liberals and progressives are not big supporters of the new law, but it is an improvement over the status quo. If the liberal and progressive wings of the Democratic Party had any power, we would have at least had a public option. The ability to PAY FOR Medicare before you are eligible for coverage.

The cost of doing nothing is always just 'forgotten' by all the right wing whiners and cry babies.


The Cost of Doing Nothing
Why the Cost of Failing to Fix Our Health System Is Greater than the Cost of Reform

2008

The U.S. health care system is in crisis. Health care costs too much; we often get too little in exchange for our health care dollar; and tens of millions of Americans are uninsured.

Our economy loses hundreds of billions of dollars every year because of the diminished health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. Rising health care costs undermine the ability of U.S. firms to compete internationally, threaten the stability of American jobs, and place increasing strain on local, state, and federal budgets. As health care costs continue to rise faster than wages, health insurance becomes more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day.

Yet, the recent financial services meltdown has led some people to suggest that we cannot afford health reform and that fixing our broken health care system will have to wait once again. But waiting comes with a price. The crisis worsens every day that we do not act. Premiums will continue to rise; Americans will continue to pay more for less-generous health coverage; and fewer employers will offer health insurance to their workers.

We must reform our struggling health system not in spite of our economic crisis, but rather because of the impact health care has on the American economy. The economic and social impact of inaction is high and it will only rise over time.

Economic Cost

The economic cost of failing to fix our broken health care system is greater than the upfront expense of comprehensive health reform. In 2006, our economy lost as much as $200 billion because of the poor health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. This is by most estimates as much as, if not greater than, the public costs of ensuring all Americans have quality, affordable, health coverage. The economies in California, Texas, and Florida suffer most from productivity loses stemming from the uninsured. Yet, Delaware’s economy loses more per uninsured person -- over $6,800 per uninsured resident.

Affordability

As health care costs continue to grow faster than wages, health insurance will become more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day. The financial burdens associated with health care and health insurance will only get worse over time without action.The cost of the average employer-sponsored health insurance plan (ESI) for a family will reach $24,000 in 2016. This represents an 84 percent increase over 2008 premium levels. Under this scenario, we estimate that at least half of American households will need to spend more than 45 percent of their income to buy health insurance.

More

Health care costs in the United States went off the tracks soon after the federal government initiated medicare. The liberals did not have enough common sense to know that massive amounts of government money will always screw up the cost curve in any market, and will always lead to the need for more government intrusion in that market.

The solution is for the federal government to get the hell out of general health care, out of health care insurance, and out of our friggin private lives.

If you want to provide health care for old people, set up a government operation that does just that. Government hospitals, government clinics, and government doctors, can take care of old folks, poor folks and the illegals, the the rest of us can manage on our own in the private health system.

Like most liberal/socialist concepts, this drive for insuring everyone is more about control of the people than it is about healthcare.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

O could have hit a home run had he made a simple move to just have insurance companies cover preexisting, and not mandate individuals and business to have healthcare coverage. Instead, its a disaster.

 

[Bfgrn]

Not true. I pay 57 percent of costs in reference to healthcare coverage for my life employees.

IF you really were a businessman, which you are NOT, this would be econ 101. The health insurance you 'say' you are paying for is really wages deducted from that employee's value you are NOT paying, and getting a tax break.

No. I'm paying through a group plan through several businesses. A portion of the healthcare expenditure is deductible. However, aca has deemed that the coverage isn't sufficient so I'll be ending coverage for my employees and dropping the number of hours they will be able to work. Now, they're going to have to go to the exchanges, pay higher premiums, higher deductibles. Everybody loses.

You are full of shit. Hey scum bag, what happens to the money you CLAIM YOU are contributing to your employee's health insurance. If it goes in YOUR pocket you just cut your employee's wages. Piece of shit right wing scum.

 

[Vox]

IF you really were a businessman, which you are NOT, this would be econ 101. The health insurance you 'say' you are paying for is really wages deducted from that employee's value you are NOT paying, and getting a tax break.

No. I'm paying through a group plan through several businesses. A portion of the healthcare expenditure is deductible. However, aca has deemed that the coverage isn't sufficient so I'll be ending coverage for my employees and dropping the number of hours they will be able to work. Now, they're going to have to go to the exchanges, pay higher premiums, higher deductibles. Everybody loses.

You are full of shit. Hey scum bag, what happens to the money you CLAIM YOU are contributing to your employee's health insurance. If it goes in YOUR pocket you just cut your employee's wages. Piece of shit right wing scum.

thank your scum leftard policies for that, you idiot

 

[The T]

O could have hit a home run had he made a simple move to just have insurance companies cover preexisting, and not mandate individuals and business to have healthcare coverage. Instead, its a disaster.

For him? All or nothing. To fix a building with a couple of leaks in the roof...HE and the Statists insist on demolishing it.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

IF you really were a businessman, which you are NOT, this would be econ 101. The health insurance you 'say' you are paying for is really wages deducted from that employee's value you are NOT paying, and getting a tax break.

No. I'm paying through a group plan through several businesses. A portion of the healthcare expenditure is deductible. However, aca has deemed that the coverage isn't sufficient so I'll be ending coverage for my employees and dropping the number of hours they will be able to work. Now, they're going to have to go to the exchanges, pay higher premiums, higher deductibles. Everybody loses.

You are full of shit. Hey scum bag, what happens to the money you CLAIM YOU are contributing to your employee's health insurance. If it goes in YOUR pocket you just cut your employee's wages. Piece of shit right wing scum.

In case you have reading comprehension problems, a portion of the costs are deductible. I'll be increasing their salary the amount I was paying into healthcare.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

IF you really were a businessman, which you are NOT, this would be econ 101. The health insurance you 'say' you are paying for is really wages deducted from that employee's value you are NOT paying, and getting a tax break.

No. I'm paying through a group plan through several businesses. A portion of the healthcare expenditure is deductible. However, aca has deemed that the coverage isn't sufficient so I'll be ending coverage for my employees and dropping the number of hours they will be able to work. Now, they're going to have to go to the exchanges, pay higher premiums, higher deductibles. Everybody loses.

You are full of shit. Hey scum bag, what happens to the money you CLAIM YOU are contributing to your employee's health insurance. If it goes in YOUR pocket you just cut your employee's wages. Piece of shit right wing scum.

One other thing, your idiot did this, not I. My employees had excellent coverage and never had a problem with our healthcare plan.

 

[Bfgrn]

Ironic that you would use that term, since I actually do have to educate myself by taking annual training on a variety of topics that include health insurance, health care administration and Medicare. Which is why I don't like the "plans" offered by either "side". What I don't do is push one side based on politics. How about you?

You can divert all you want. The fact remains that HHS told Obama this was going to happen, and now you left wing partisan ideologues are claiming that it's okay if people lose their plans because they're lousy plans anyway. You can spin his lies all you want, you can plant all the straw man arguments you want - you're defending lies. Have fun with that.

.

I don't 'side' with anyone but the people of this country. Insurance cartels are the source of the problem. If you are so 'educated' about health insurance, then the term 'medical loss ratio' should be very familiar to you. Every other industrialized nation has figured out that there is no 'free market' solution to health insurance. Liberals and progressives are not big supporters of the new law, but it is an improvement over the status quo. If the liberal and progressive wings of the Democratic Party had any power, we would have at least had a public option. The ability to PAY FOR Medicare before you are eligible for coverage.

The cost of doing nothing is always just 'forgotten' by all the right wing whiners and cry babies.


The Cost of Doing Nothing
Why the Cost of Failing to Fix Our Health System Is Greater than the Cost of Reform

2008

The U.S. health care system is in crisis. Health care costs too much; we often get too little in exchange for our health care dollar; and tens of millions of Americans are uninsured.

Our economy loses hundreds of billions of dollars every year because of the diminished health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. Rising health care costs undermine the ability of U.S. firms to compete internationally, threaten the stability of American jobs, and place increasing strain on local, state, and federal budgets. As health care costs continue to rise faster than wages, health insurance becomes more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day.

Yet, the recent financial services meltdown has led some people to suggest that we cannot afford health reform and that fixing our broken health care system will have to wait once again. But waiting comes with a price. The crisis worsens every day that we do not act. Premiums will continue to rise; Americans will continue to pay more for less-generous health coverage; and fewer employers will offer health insurance to their workers.

We must reform our struggling health system not in spite of our economic crisis, but rather because of the impact health care has on the American economy. The economic and social impact of inaction is high and it will only rise over time.

Economic Cost

The economic cost of failing to fix our broken health care system is greater than the upfront expense of comprehensive health reform. In 2006, our economy lost as much as $200 billion because of the poor health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. This is by most estimates as much as, if not greater than, the public costs of ensuring all Americans have quality, affordable, health coverage. The economies in California, Texas, and Florida suffer most from productivity loses stemming from the uninsured. Yet, Delaware’s economy loses more per uninsured person -- over $6,800 per uninsured resident.

Affordability

As health care costs continue to grow faster than wages, health insurance will become more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day. The financial burdens associated with health care and health insurance will only get worse over time without action.The cost of the average employer-sponsored health insurance plan (ESI) for a family will reach $24,000 in 2016. This represents an 84 percent increase over 2008 premium levels. Under this scenario, we estimate that at least half of American households will need to spend more than 45 percent of their income to buy health insurance.

More

Health care costs in the United States went off the tracks soon after the federal government initiated medicare. The liberals did not have enough common sense to know that massive amounts of government money will always screw up the cost curve in any market, and will always lead to the need for more government intrusion in that market.

The solution is for the federal government to get the hell out of general health care, out of health care insurance, and out of our friggin private lives.

If you want to provide health care for old people, set up a government operation that does just that. Government hospitals, government clinics, and government doctors, can take care of old folks, poor folks and the illegals, the the rest of us can manage on our own in the private health system.

Like most liberal/socialist concepts, this drive for insuring everyone is more about control of the people than it is about healthcare.

You right wing turds are so fucking stupid it boggles the mind that you are able to cross a street without getting creamed. You only look one way before crossing. Your beloved insurance cartels are lily white Gods who only care about people's health.

Insurance companies were originally run by doctors. Their idea was to spread the risk. They had a sense that getting sick usually wasn't fair, so going bankrupt because you were sick probably also wasn't fair. They had the idea that pooling people in advance made it easier on everyone, and improved access to healthcare.

It's a great irony that only a few years later, some business people (people who are very good with money, but not so interested in medicine) realized that they could make a lot of money on health insurance if they created a special insurance plan that excluded the sickest people. In other words, insurance for people who probably didn't need it, which was very different from the original idea of health insurance for everyone, but far more profitable. The idea of preexisting conditions is almost as old as health insurance itself.

Here's one way to look at how the system came to be: People usually try to find occupations that follow what they love, at least in the beginning. Hospitals can be callous in their billing, as we've seen, and doctors like money as much as anyone else, but fundamentally there was a point in their lives when they (doctors and people who run hospitals) decided to get into the profession of helping sick people. Some are genuinely compassionate. Some are biology wonks or technology wonks, or just like the action. But most of them lose interest pretty quickly when they have to start dealing with complicated financial matters like insurance payments.

The first insurance companies were started by doctors, but they couldn't stay in the game when the money professionals started showing. They couldn't compete financially, and they didn't have the mindset to try. So they did what most of us do: focus on the details that interested them (medicine), and left the tedious stuff (finances) to someone who was interested in it (insurance companies). Now the insurance companies could start building a system in their image.

As the system grew and healthcare became more complex, more people came into the health insurance industry who had a good understanding of money but little interest in healthcare. It’s no secret that confused people are easier to take advantage of, so layers of confusion were slowly piled on and profits soared. Insurance companies sell nothing more than security against financial risk. If no one really understands what that risk is (because all prices are hidden or deceptive) then the price of the security (insurance) can be grossly inflated.

Doctors, hospitals, and other healthcare providers didn’t protest as the process slowly grew away from them because, as this started to happen, they too, were making money, and didn't think they needed to worry about it. As the system became less and less transparent, insurance companies were careful to make sure that all of the major players were kept very happy. But you can't keep everyone happy forever, and when things get tight, that's when you start to learn who's running the system. Now, after 30 to 40 years of slowly allowing all of our understanding of the financial transactions to erode, we are left seeing more and more money dumped into a black hole with little understanding of what happens to it.

It’s rare to see a discussion about healthcare costs that isn’t centered on co-pays, premiums, and deductibles. These are all indirect costs. They tell you almost nothing about the cost of the final product (the medical services that you might need). If the cost of individual components of healthcare are mentioned at all in these conversations, the price given is usually the billing charge. But the billing charge has little to do with what health care costs either. You've seen in almost every section of this discussion that the billing charge is a hugely inflated price that almost no one ever pays.

Why would anyone want us to focus on a price that's almost never paid (unless you don't have insurance, of course)? Well, one reason might be that it makes it look like all that money is really going into paying for our health care. We all know how important an MRI can be, or an Emergency Room visit, and as long as people think an MRI really costs $4,000, and an ER visit costs $4,500, maybe they'll resign themselves to paying big insurance premiums, and we can all tell ourselves that it's the only way we can continue to have "the best health care in the world."

But if these charges have nothing to do with reality, then neither do any of the discussions. MRI's and ER visits cost hundreds of dollars, not thousands! This is all a very effective diversion because, if no one ever addresses the real problem, it’s unlikely a real solution will ever be proposed. And if you don't want people to find out where their money is going, it helps to have them looking in the wrong place.

more

 

[Erand7899]

You are not allowed to ask for any documentation or facts. It's Obama's fault your tire was flat this morning.

But you do touch on the 800 lb. gorilla in the room. Some employers are using 'Obamacare' as an excuse to cut worker's pay. A REAL 'thinking' person would realize that no employer 'gives' you health insurance. YOU are the one paying for it, it is merely deferred wages. If an employer cuts your insurance, then that money should go in your pocket, not his.

Not true. I pay 57 percent of costs in reference to healthcare coverage for my life employees.

IF you really were a businessman, which you are NOT, this would be econ 101. The health insurance you 'say' you are paying for is really wages deducted from that employee's value you are NOT paying, and getting a tax break.

Your understanding of economics 101 is fairly one sided. It is true that employer provided health insurance is part of employee compensation, and as such, is part of the cost of doing business, but it is no more the employee's right than a Christmas bonus is. Nor, does it place any obligation on an employer to eat increased insurance costs, just to continue to provide insurance. Like all other employee compensation health insurance is a negotiable part of the deal between employer and employee.

 

[kiwiman127]

Ironic that you would use that term, since I actually do have to educate myself by taking annual training on a variety of topics that include health insurance, health care administration and Medicare. Which is why I don't like the "plans" offered by either "side". What I don't do is push one side based on politics. How about you?

You can divert all you want. The fact remains that HHS told Obama this was going to happen, and now you left wing partisan ideologues are claiming that it's okay if people lose their plans because they're lousy plans anyway. You can spin his lies all you want, you can plant all the straw man arguments you want - you're defending lies. Have fun with that.

.

I don't 'side' with anyone but the people of this country. Insurance cartels are the source of the problem. If you are so 'educated' about health insurance, then the term 'medical loss ratio' should be very familiar to you. Every other industrialized nation has figured out that there is no 'free market' solution to health insurance. Liberals and progressives are not big supporters of the new law, but it is an improvement over the status quo. If the liberal and progressive wings of the Democratic Party had any power, we would have at least had a public option. The ability to PAY FOR Medicare before you are eligible for coverage.

The cost of doing nothing is always just 'forgotten' by all the right wing whiners and cry babies.


The Cost of Doing Nothing
Why the Cost of Failing to Fix Our Health System Is Greater than the Cost of Reform

2008

The U.S. health care system is in crisis. Health care costs too much; we often get too little in exchange for our health care dollar; and tens of millions of Americans are uninsured.

Our economy loses hundreds of billions of dollars every year because of the diminished health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. Rising health care costs undermine the ability of U.S. firms to compete internationally, threaten the stability of American jobs, and place increasing strain on local, state, and federal budgets. As health care costs continue to rise faster than wages, health insurance becomes more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day.

Yet, the recent financial services meltdown has led some people to suggest that we cannot afford health reform and that fixing our broken health care system will have to wait once again. But waiting comes with a price. The crisis worsens every day that we do not act. Premiums will continue to rise; Americans will continue to pay more for less-generous health coverage; and fewer employers will offer health insurance to their workers.

We must reform our struggling health system not in spite of our economic crisis, but rather because of the impact health care has on the American economy. The economic and social impact of inaction is high and it will only rise over time.

Economic Cost

The economic cost of failing to fix our broken health care system is greater than the upfront expense of comprehensive health reform. In 2006, our economy lost as much as $200 billion because of the poor health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. This is by most estimates as much as, if not greater than, the public costs of ensuring all Americans have quality, affordable, health coverage. The economies in California, Texas, and Florida suffer most from productivity loses stemming from the uninsured. Yet, Delaware’s economy loses more per uninsured person -- over $6,800 per uninsured resident.

Affordability

As health care costs continue to grow faster than wages, health insurance will become more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day. The financial burdens associated with health care and health insurance will only get worse over time without action.The cost of the average employer-sponsored health insurance plan (ESI) for a family will reach $24,000 in 2016. This represents an 84 percent increase over 2008 premium levels. Under this scenario, we estimate that at least half of American households will need to spend more than 45 percent of their income to buy health insurance.

More

Health care costs in the United States went off the tracks soon after the federal government initiated medicare. The liberals did not have enough common sense to know that massive amounts of government money will always screw up the cost curve in any market, and will always lead to the need for more government intrusion in that market.

The solution is for the federal government to get the hell out of general health care, out of health care insurance, and out of our friggin private lives.

If you want to provide health care for old people, set up a government operation that does just that. Government hospitals, government clinics, and government doctors, can take care of old folks, poor folks and the illegals, the the rest of us can manage on our own in the private health system.

Like most liberal/socialist concepts, this drive for insuring everyone is more about control of the people than it is about healthcare.

Actually, healthcare costs starting rising quickly in the early 1980s.

 

[Erand7899]

I don't 'side' with anyone but the people of this country. Insurance cartels are the source of the problem. If you are so 'educated' about health insurance, then the term 'medical loss ratio' should be very familiar to you. Every other industrialized nation has figured out that there is no 'free market' solution to health insurance. Liberals and progressives are not big supporters of the new law, but it is an improvement over the status quo. If the liberal and progressive wings of the Democratic Party had any power, we would have at least had a public option. The ability to PAY FOR Medicare before you are eligible for coverage.

The cost of doing nothing is always just 'forgotten' by all the right wing whiners and cry babies.


The Cost of Doing Nothing
Why the Cost of Failing to Fix Our Health System Is Greater than the Cost of Reform

2008

The U.S. health care system is in crisis. Health care costs too much; we often get too little in exchange for our health care dollar; and tens of millions of Americans are uninsured.

Our economy loses hundreds of billions of dollars every year because of the diminished health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. Rising health care costs undermine the ability of U.S. firms to compete internationally, threaten the stability of American jobs, and place increasing strain on local, state, and federal budgets. As health care costs continue to rise faster than wages, health insurance becomes more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day.

Yet, the recent financial services meltdown has led some people to suggest that we cannot afford health reform and that fixing our broken health care system will have to wait once again. But waiting comes with a price. The crisis worsens every day that we do not act. Premiums will continue to rise; Americans will continue to pay more for less-generous health coverage; and fewer employers will offer health insurance to their workers.

We must reform our struggling health system not in spite of our economic crisis, but rather because of the impact health care has on the American economy. The economic and social impact of inaction is high and it will only rise over time.

Economic Cost

The economic cost of failing to fix our broken health care system is greater than the upfront expense of comprehensive health reform. In 2006, our economy lost as much as $200 billion because of the poor health and shorter lifespan of the uninsured. This is by most estimates as much as, if not greater than, the public costs of ensuring all Americans have quality, affordable, health coverage. The economies in California, Texas, and Florida suffer most from productivity loses stemming from the uninsured. Yet, Delaware’s economy loses more per uninsured person -- over $6,800 per uninsured resident.

Affordability

As health care costs continue to grow faster than wages, health insurance will become more and more unaffordable for more and more American families every day. The financial burdens associated with health care and health insurance will only get worse over time without action.The cost of the average employer-sponsored health insurance plan (ESI) for a family will reach $24,000 in 2016. This represents an 84 percent increase over 2008 premium levels. Under this scenario, we estimate that at least half of American households will need to spend more than 45 percent of their income to buy health insurance.

More

Health care costs in the United States went off the tracks soon after the federal government initiated medicare. The liberals did not have enough common sense to know that massive amounts of government money will always screw up the cost curve in any market, and will always lead to the need for more government intrusion in that market.

The solution is for the federal government to get the hell out of general health care, out of health care insurance, and out of our friggin private lives.

If you want to provide health care for old people, set up a government operation that does just that. Government hospitals, government clinics, and government doctors, can take care of old folks, poor folks and the illegals, the the rest of us can manage on our own in the private health system.

Like most liberal/socialist concepts, this drive for insuring everyone is more about control of the people than it is about healthcare.

You right wing turds are so fucking stupid it boggles the mind that you are able to cross a street without getting creamed. You only look one way before crossing. Your beloved insurance cartels are lily white Gods who only care about people's health.

Insurance companies were originally run by doctors. Their idea was to spread the risk. They had a sense that getting sick usually wasn't fair, so going bankrupt because you were sick probably also wasn't fair. They had the idea that pooling people in advance made it easier on everyone, and improved access to healthcare.

It's a great irony that only a few years later, some business people (people who are very good with money, but not so interested in medicine) realized that they could make a lot of money on health insurance if they created a special insurance plan that excluded the sickest people. In other words, insurance for people who probably didn't need it, which was very different from the original idea of health insurance for everyone, but far more profitable. The idea of preexisting conditions is almost as old as health insurance itself.

Here's one way to look at how the system came to be: People usually try to find occupations that follow what they love, at least in the beginning. Hospitals can be callous in their billing, as we've seen, and doctors like money as much as anyone else, but fundamentally there was a point in their lives when they (doctors and people who run hospitals) decided to get into the profession of helping sick people. Some are genuinely compassionate. Some are biology wonks or technology wonks, or just like the action. But most of them lose interest pretty quickly when they have to start dealing with complicated financial matters like insurance payments.

The first insurance companies were started by doctors, but they couldn't stay in the game when the money professionals started showing. They couldn't compete financially, and they didn't have the mindset to try. So they did what most of us do: focus on the details that interested them (medicine), and left the tedious stuff (finances) to someone who was interested in it (insurance companies). Now the insurance companies could start building a system in their image.

As the system grew and healthcare became more complex, more people came into the health insurance industry who had a good understanding of money but little interest in healthcare. It’s no secret that confused people are easier to take advantage of, so layers of confusion were slowly piled on and profits soared. Insurance companies sell nothing more than security against financial risk. If no one really understands what that risk is (because all prices are hidden or deceptive) then the price of the security (insurance) can be grossly inflated.

Doctors, hospitals, and other healthcare providers didn’t protest as the process slowly grew away from them because, as this started to happen, they too, were making money, and didn't think they needed to worry about it. As the system became less and less transparent, insurance companies were careful to make sure that all of the major players were kept very happy. But you can't keep everyone happy forever, and when things get tight, that's when you start to learn who's running the system. Now, after 30 to 40 years of slowly allowing all of our understanding of the financial transactions to erode, we are left seeing more and more money dumped into a black hole with little understanding of what happens to it.

It’s rare to see a discussion about healthcare costs that isn’t centered on co-pays, premiums, and deductibles. These are all indirect costs. They tell you almost nothing about the cost of the final product (the medical services that you might need). If the cost of individual components of healthcare are mentioned at all in these conversations, the price given is usually the billing charge. But the billing charge has little to do with what health care costs either. You've seen in almost every section of this discussion that the billing charge is a hugely inflated price that almost no one ever pays.

Why would anyone want us to focus on a price that's almost never paid (unless you don't have insurance, of course)? Well, one reason might be that it makes it look like all that money is really going into paying for our health care. We all know how important an MRI can be, or an Emergency Room visit, and as long as people think an MRI really costs $4,000, and an ER visit costs $4,500, maybe they'll resign themselves to paying big insurance premiums, and we can all tell ourselves that it's the only way we can continue to have "the best health care in the world."

But if these charges have nothing to do with reality, then neither do any of the discussions. MRI's and ER visits cost hundreds of dollars, not thousands! This is all a very effective diversion because, if no one ever addresses the real problem, it’s unlikely a real solution will ever be proposed. And if you don't want people to find out where their money is going, it helps to have them looking in the wrong place.

more

Typical liberal/socialist response. Unthinking, unresponsive, and mostly false cause and effect logic. If the government was not involved in the private health care market, than all of the costs of our healthcare would be borne by insurance companies and the individuals who need healthcare. ER costs are high because OUR GOVERMENT mandates tha ERs treat everyone who shows up.

If the government mandated that food stores provide food to everyone who shows up, regardless of their ability to pay, we would be paying through the nose for basic food stuff. After all, isn't the need to eat a more basic need than the need for healthcare?

It is now, and has been since the beginning of Medicare, the government intrusion in the health care market that has screwed up health care costs.

 

[Bfgrn]

Not true. I pay 57 percent of costs in reference to healthcare coverage for my life employees.

IF you really were a businessman, which you are NOT, this would be econ 101. The health insurance you 'say' you are paying for is really wages deducted from that employee's value you are NOT paying, and getting a tax break.

Your understanding of economics 101 is fairly one sided. It is true that employer provided health insurance is part of employee compensation, and as such, is part of the cost of doing business, but it is no more the employee's right than a Christmas bonus is. Nor, does it place any obligation on an employer to eat increased insurance costs, just to continue to provide insurance. Like all other employee compensation health insurance is a negotiable part of the deal between employer and employee.

My understanding of econ 101 is dead on. You are missing the point. If an employer stops providing health insurance, and doesn't give his employees a raise, he is A) lowering their wages and B) increasing his profits.

 

[Bfgrn]

Health care costs in the United States went off the tracks soon after the federal government initiated medicare. The liberals did not have enough common sense to know that massive amounts of government money will always screw up the cost curve in any market, and will always lead to the need for more government intrusion in that market.

The solution is for the federal government to get the hell out of general health care, out of health care insurance, and out of our friggin private lives.

If you want to provide health care for old people, set up a government operation that does just that. Government hospitals, government clinics, and government doctors, can take care of old folks, poor folks and the illegals, the the rest of us can manage on our own in the private health system.

Like most liberal/socialist concepts, this drive for insuring everyone is more about control of the people than it is about healthcare.

You right wing turds are so fucking stupid it boggles the mind that you are able to cross a street without getting creamed. You only look one way before crossing. Your beloved insurance cartels are lily white Gods who only care about people's health.

Insurance companies were originally run by doctors. Their idea was to spread the risk. They had a sense that getting sick usually wasn't fair, so going bankrupt because you were sick probably also wasn't fair. They had the idea that pooling people in advance made it easier on everyone, and improved access to healthcare.

It's a great irony that only a few years later, some business people (people who are very good with money, but not so interested in medicine) realized that they could make a lot of money on health insurance if they created a special insurance plan that excluded the sickest people. In other words, insurance for people who probably didn't need it, which was very different from the original idea of health insurance for everyone, but far more profitable. The idea of preexisting conditions is almost as old as health insurance itself.

Here's one way to look at how the system came to be: People usually try to find occupations that follow what they love, at least in the beginning. Hospitals can be callous in their billing, as we've seen, and doctors like money as much as anyone else, but fundamentally there was a point in their lives when they (doctors and people who run hospitals) decided to get into the profession of helping sick people. Some are genuinely compassionate. Some are biology wonks or technology wonks, or just like the action. But most of them lose interest pretty quickly when they have to start dealing with complicated financial matters like insurance payments.

The first insurance companies were started by doctors, but they couldn't stay in the game when the money professionals started showing. They couldn't compete financially, and they didn't have the mindset to try. So they did what most of us do: focus on the details that interested them (medicine), and left the tedious stuff (finances) to someone who was interested in it (insurance companies). Now the insurance companies could start building a system in their image.

As the system grew and healthcare became more complex, more people came into the health insurance industry who had a good understanding of money but little interest in healthcare. It’s no secret that confused people are easier to take advantage of, so layers of confusion were slowly piled on and profits soared. Insurance companies sell nothing more than security against financial risk. If no one really understands what that risk is (because all prices are hidden or deceptive) then the price of the security (insurance) can be grossly inflated.

Doctors, hospitals, and other healthcare providers didn’t protest as the process slowly grew away from them because, as this started to happen, they too, were making money, and didn't think they needed to worry about it. As the system became less and less transparent, insurance companies were careful to make sure that all of the major players were kept very happy. But you can't keep everyone happy forever, and when things get tight, that's when you start to learn who's running the system. Now, after 30 to 40 years of slowly allowing all of our understanding of the financial transactions to erode, we are left seeing more and more money dumped into a black hole with little understanding of what happens to it.

It’s rare to see a discussion about healthcare costs that isn’t centered on co-pays, premiums, and deductibles. These are all indirect costs. They tell you almost nothing about the cost of the final product (the medical services that you might need). If the cost of individual components of healthcare are mentioned at all in these conversations, the price given is usually the billing charge. But the billing charge has little to do with what health care costs either. You've seen in almost every section of this discussion that the billing charge is a hugely inflated price that almost no one ever pays.

Why would anyone want us to focus on a price that's almost never paid (unless you don't have insurance, of course)? Well, one reason might be that it makes it look like all that money is really going into paying for our health care. We all know how important an MRI can be, or an Emergency Room visit, and as long as people think an MRI really costs $4,000, and an ER visit costs $4,500, maybe they'll resign themselves to paying big insurance premiums, and we can all tell ourselves that it's the only way we can continue to have "the best health care in the world."

But if these charges have nothing to do with reality, then neither do any of the discussions. MRI's and ER visits cost hundreds of dollars, not thousands! This is all a very effective diversion because, if no one ever addresses the real problem, it’s unlikely a real solution will ever be proposed. And if you don't want people to find out where their money is going, it helps to have them looking in the wrong place.

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Typical liberal/socialist response. Unthinking, unresponsive, and mostly false cause and effect logic. If the government was not involved in the private health care market, than all of the costs of our healthcare would be borne by insurance companies and the individuals who need healthcare. ER costs are high because OUR GOVERMENT mandates tha ERs treat everyone who shows up.

If the government mandated that food stores provide food to everyone who shows up, regardless of their ability to pay, we would be paying through the nose for basic food stuff. After all, isn't the need to eat a more basic need than the need for healthcare?

It is now, and has been since the beginning of Medicare, the government intrusion in the health care market that has screwed up health care costs.

Typical right wing scum bag Pharisee response. Let em die!

The selfish spirit of commerce knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain.
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to Larkin Smith (1809).

 

[The T]

IF you really were a businessman, which you are NOT, this would be econ 101. The health insurance you 'say' you are paying for is really wages deducted from that employee's value you are NOT paying, and getting a tax break.

Your understanding of economics 101 is fairly one sided. It is true that employer provided health insurance is part of employee compensation, and as such, is part of the cost of doing business, but it is no more the employee's right than a Christmas bonus is. Nor, does it place any obligation on an employer to eat increased insurance costs, just to continue to provide insurance. Like all other employee compensation health insurance is a negotiable part of the deal between employer and employee.

My understanding of econ 101 is dead on. You are missing the point. If an employer stops providing health insurance, and doesn't give his employees a raise, he is A) lowering their wages and B) increasing his profits.

That would presuppose that YOU understand why businesses exist in the first place...and it isn't just to provide jobs...idiot. Your wealth envy is just major stupidity and typical of Marxists such as yourself.
It is none of government's business what contract a business and their employees enter into if it is legal, and mutual on behalf of both parties.

Point is? Government needs to keep it's nose out of it and trying to control it in order to steal private property to give to others that are either too stupid, or didn't take advantage of education...and chose poor paths in life and exercising their liberty.

They instead rely on Government to give it to them. It's downright intellectual laziness on YOUR part. And YOU support the government seizing private property. ADMIT IT.

Son? You suck at this. YOU are an enemy to liberty.

 

[daveman]

...you prove that you're unable to think for yourself.

There are some crap policies out there. However, many existing policies are good sound policies that give the protection needed when it comes to one's healthcare needs. While the plans on the healthcare exchange cover all preventative care, the overall cost is not cheap regardless of which type of plan you choose. You can find some decent deals on Bronze plans if you are healthy and do not expect to spend much out of pocket every year. The drawback is that if you do become sick and end up with lots of medical bills in a given year, then you are going to spend $10,000 or so that year.

The bottom line is that health care is not cheap, with or without the ACA.

The Bronze plans will appeal mostly to those just over the subsidy cap. People who buy the other plans will be subsiding those who are drawing the subsidies.

The have nots, once again, being supported by the haves.

 

[Bfgrn]

Your understanding of economics 101 is fairly one sided. It is true that employer provided health insurance is part of employee compensation, and as such, is part of the cost of doing business, but it is no more the employee's right than a Christmas bonus is. Nor, does it place any obligation on an employer to eat increased insurance costs, just to continue to provide insurance. Like all other employee compensation health insurance is a negotiable part of the deal between employer and employee.

My understanding of econ 101 is dead on. You are missing the point. If an employer stops providing health insurance, and doesn't give his employees a raise, he is A) lowering their wages and B) increasing his profits.

That would presuppose that YOU understand why businesses exist in the first place...and it isn't just to provide jobs...idiot. Your wealth envy is just major stupidity and typical of Marxists such as yourself.
It is none of government's business what contract a business and their employees enter into if it is legal, and mutual on behalf of both parties.

Point is? Government needs to keep it's nose out of it and trying to control it in order to steal private property to give to others that are either too stupid, or didn't take advantage of education...and chose poor paths in life and exercising their liberty.

They instead rely on Government to give it to them. It's downright intellectual laziness on YOUR part. And YOU support the government seizing private property. ADMIT IT.

Son? You suck at this. YOU are an enemy to liberty.

You need to move to Somalia. There is is no government there. You'll love it, for the few days you continue to live.

Anarchy is not what our founding fathers envisioned. The radicals are you teabagger terrorists who say you love America, it's just all those fucking AmericANS you have no use for.

 

[daveman]

...you prove that you're unable to think for yourself.

you expect leftards to think for themselves? LOL

they are just parroting the newest talking points lies.

if they would be really soooooo concerned about policies - why would the tax the standard PPO employer-based one by 40% starting from 2018?

but do not expect our leftards to have any logical thinking.
because they do not think.

and they expect that we don't know that their lies about "better policies" which means mandatory OB coverage for those who don't need them are not just a spreading the cost for those whom they expect to cover - the illegals with anchor babies

LOL...here is what 'thinking' folks like daveman, Mac1958, Vox and T look like...

Obama thanks you for your unthinking, unquestioning support, but would like you to know he really doesn't give a shit about you. But he's confident you'll keep voting as programmed, and that's all that matters.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

My understanding of econ 101 is dead on. You are missing the point. If an employer stops providing health insurance, and doesn't give his employees a raise, he is A) lowering their wages and B) increasing his profits.

That would presuppose that YOU understand why businesses exist in the first place...and it isn't just to provide jobs...idiot. Your wealth envy is just major stupidity and typical of Marxists such as yourself.
It is none of government's business what contract a business and their employees enter into if it is legal, and mutual on behalf of both parties.

Point is? Government needs to keep it's nose out of it and trying to control it in order to steal private property to give to others that are either too stupid, or didn't take advantage of education...and chose poor paths in life and exercising their liberty.

They instead rely on Government to give it to them. It's downright intellectual laziness on YOUR part. And YOU support the government seizing private property. ADMIT IT.

Son? You suck at this. YOU are an enemy to liberty.

You need to move to Somalia. There is is no government there. You'll love it, for the few days you continue to live.

Anarchy is not what our founding fathers envisioned. The radicals are you teabagger terrorists who say you love America, it's just all those fucking AmericANS you have no use for.

Employers in the US were never under the obligation to offer healthcare insurance until now. We never were close to being an anarchist country because private enterprise didn't offer health insurance. Horrible analogy.

 

[daveman]

Obama lies and his followers defend him.Now Obama justifies the lie by saying in not so many words
that people will be forced to pay more for some coverage they don't need and they should be thankful?

And republicans are the ones who are getting blamed for all this is the topping on the cake.

And the Republicans let this happen to themselves. At least the TEA party members have introduced a spine back into the party...

No one ever accused terrorists of not having a 'spine'.

I have. Islamic terrorists are chickenshits.

Of course, you mean TEA Party members, so you're just repeating your programmed talking points again, thus validating the OP.

 

[RandallFlagg]

...you prove that you're unable to think for yourself.

From the AP today - Saturday

The Associated Press on Saturday said at least 3.5 million Americans will lose their current health plans because of President Barack Obama’s signature health care program and released a chart showing a state-by-state breakdown.

“Millions of Americans who buy their own health insurance are being informed that their policies will no longer be offered starting in the new year because they do not meet the higher standards of the Affordable Care Act,” the AP said. “The actual number of people receiving the notices is unclear, with data unavailable in half the states.”


Here is the AP’s chart, breaking down the numbers state-by-state:

Alabama 90,000
Alaska 5,300
Arizona State not tracking
Arkansas State not tracking
California 900,000
Colorado Not available
Connecticut Not available
Delaware Not available
District of Columbia 21,300
Florida 330,000
Georgia 400,000
Hawaii State not tracking
Idaho 105,000
Illinois Not available
Indiana 108,000
Iowa 1,000
Kansas State not tracking
Kentucky 130,000
Louisiana 10,000
Maine Existing plans automatically switched
Maryland Not available
Massachusetts Not available
Michigan 225,000
Minnesota 140,000
Mississippi 600
Missouri State not tracking
Montana State not tracking
Nebraska State not tracking
Nevada State not tracking
New Hampshire 20,000
New Jersey 150,000
New Mexico 26,000
New York 100,000
North Carolina 160,000
North Dakota State not tracking
Ohio State not tracking
Oklahoma None (notification deadline extended)
Oregon 150,000
Pennsylvania 215,000-250,000
Rhode Island Existing plans automatically switched
South Carolina State not tracking
South Dakota State not tracking
Tennessee State not tracking
Texas State not tracking
Utah State not tracking
Vermont Not available
Virginia State not tracking
Washington 290,000
West Virginia State not tracking
Wisconsin State not tracking
Wyoming 3,200

According to the AP, the numbers used in the chart reflect “reporting by AP staffers in each state and the District of Columbia, as of Friday.”

A report published by NBC News earlier this week said the Obama administration knew for at least three years that millions of Americans would not be able to keep their current health plans under the Affordable Care Act.

Keep in mind that these are privately owned policies from individuals who carry all the cost on their own. This is NOT Employers dropping their employee policies. That will hit the fan NEXT year.