Immigration is Destroying America.

[protectionist]

Shortage of skilled workers in America ?

There are simply no structural changes capable of explaining the pattern of sustained high unemployment over the last five years. What we have, instead, is an aggregate demand problem. The reason we are not seeing robust job growth is because businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up in a way that would require them to significantly ramp up hiring. The right policies for the present moment are, therefore, straightforward.

And the first and foremost policy would be to stop immigration (legal and illegal) which contributing highly to the lack of aggregate demand. No, businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up, and one of the primary reasons is because he dollars$$$ that ordinarily would flow into their cash registers, are instead flowing out of the country in wires (remittances$$$) sent by immigrants.

http://www.cfr.org/united-states/fe...nt-reform-myth-skilled-worker-shortage/p26643

http://www.epi.org/publication/shortage-skilled-workers/

A host of academic studies have debunked the notion—but you don’t need a Ph.D. to figure it out. You just need to recognize the law of supply and demand.

“It’s hard not to break out laughing,” one economist noted recently. “If there’s a skills shortage, there has to be rises in wages [for skilled workers]. It’s basic economics.”

Yet wages in manufacturing—even for skilled workers—are stagnant at best.

http://www.labornotes.org/2014/01/skills-gap-convenient-myth

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/May/05/samuelson-skilled-worker-shortage-myth/

 

[Unkotare]

America's Skilled Trades Dilemma: Shortages Loom As Most-In-Demand Group Of Workers Ages - Forbes

 

[RKMBrown]

Shortage of skilled workers in America ?

There are simply no structural changes capable of explaining the pattern of sustained high unemployment over the last five years. What we have, instead, is an aggregate demand problem. The reason we are not seeing robust job growth is because businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up in a way that would require them to significantly ramp up hiring. The right policies for the present moment are, therefore, straightforward.

And the first and foremost policy would be to stop immigration (legal and illegal) which contributing highly to the lack of aggregate demand. No, businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up, and one of the primary reasons is because he dollars$$$ that ordinarily would flow into their cash registers, are instead flowing out of the country in wires (remittances$$$) sent by immigrants.

Federation for American Immigrant Reform: The Myth of a Skilled Worker Shortage - Council on Foreign Relations

Is There Really a Shortage of Skilled Workers? | Economic Policy Institute

A host of academic studies have debunked the notion—but you don’t need a Ph.D. to figure it out. You just need to recognize the law of supply and demand.

“It’s hard not to break out laughing,” one economist noted recently. “If there’s a skills shortage, there has to be rises in wages [for skilled workers]. It’s basic economics.”

Yet wages in manufacturing—even for skilled workers—are stagnant at best.

Skills Gap a Convenient Myth | Labor Notes

Robert J. Samuelson: Skilled worker shortage mostly a myth | UTSanDiego.com

Nonsense.

The structural change paralleling this unemployment is the democrats throwing out the welfare reforms signed under clinton. The democrats took away the incentives to get off welfare. Now there is no incentive to get off.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

Shortage of skilled workers in America ?

There are simply no structural changes capable of explaining the pattern of sustained high unemployment over the last five years. What we have, instead, is an aggregate demand problem. The reason we are not seeing robust job growth is because businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up in a way that would require them to significantly ramp up hiring. The right policies for the present moment are, therefore, straightforward.

And the first and foremost policy would be to stop immigration (legal and illegal) which contributing highly to the lack of aggregate demand. No, businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up, and one of the primary reasons is because he dollars$$$ that ordinarily would flow into their cash registers, are instead flowing out of the country in wires (remittances$$$) sent by immigrants.

Federation for American Immigrant Reform: The Myth of a Skilled Worker Shortage - Council on Foreign Relations

Is There Really a Shortage of Skilled Workers? | Economic Policy Institute

A host of academic studies have debunked the notion—but you don’t need a Ph.D. to figure it out. You just need to recognize the law of supply and demand.

“It’s hard not to break out laughing,” one economist noted recently. “If there’s a skills shortage, there has to be rises in wages [for skilled workers]. It’s basic economics.”

Yet wages in manufacturing—even for skilled workers—are stagnant at best.

Skills Gap a Convenient Myth | Labor Notes

Robert J. Samuelson: Skilled worker shortage mostly a myth | UTSanDiego.com

Nonsense.

The structural change paralleling this unemployment is the democrats throwing out the welfare reforms signed under clinton. The democrats took away the incentives to get off welfare. Now there is no incentive to get off.

Whether or not welfare reform was effective in reducing welfare rolls does not factor into the skilled labor supply debate... unless graduates are going on Welfare.

First things first, STEM laborers are not the only type of skilled labor in this country. STEM is a field that gets a lot of publicity and is widely regarded as always in demand, almost as if the demand for STEM labor is inelastic.


For years, everything I had seen and read demonstrated a sharp lack of native-born STEM graduates and a demand that could never be filled. So I was perplexed when someone first challenged this notion.
President Obama?s Google Plus ?hangout? claims about engineering demand - The Washington Post

There are some things I'd ask us to keep in mind: Over-aggregation, dynamic labor markets (both domestic and global) and potential for growth.

Think about the level of aggregation involved in talking about "STEM" graduates. That's to say the term treats someone with a PhD in solid state physics as that pertains to semiconductor design the same as someone with a CCENT certificate, with no offense intended to either party as the PhD or the entry-level Cisco technician may not want or be able to do the other's job. There are different categories within STEM. The article from the Washington Post details the unemployment rates for different types of engineers. As can be seen from the article, as different technical challenges are encountered by industry, demands for labor change. This means that one category of STEM might be hot and another category of STEM might be "not". Even within these categories there are subcategories. One discipline within electrical engineering is "power engineering", which was a discipline considered to be proverbially on the ropes in the 90s. Today it is hot. Why?
Career Focus: Power Engineering

So we see there is a dynamic labor market. I noticed in the article from the washington post that the jobless engineer interviewed had some familial obligations that kept him in the Ft Worth area in spite of layoffs. Nothing lasts in perpetuity, and the article glosses over the engineer's inability to relocate. Often, when performing a service for someone else, especially in manufacturing, one must relocate to where the job is needed. Relocation happens. It is sad when a huge plant shuts down and people have mortgages and kids in school and moving is a terrible burden, but then so is unemployment. That's the dynamics of the domestic market at work. New skills, new locations. What about the dynamics of the global market? As low income nations are empowered through global labor arbitrage, the citizens of those nations will be better educated and be capable of providing more expensive services, such as design services. Because of this relatively cheap and massive supply of STEM labor, we can expect entrepreneurs to recognize the potential of that pool of talent in developing countries and take advantage of that talent pool. To what extent is obviously dependent on the industry and exact type of service. Why not write server software in PHP in Bangalore? Heck, I don't know why there is so much fuss about immigrants who want to do these jobs living here. At least they'll be Americans doing the jobs! It's better than communist China both building and designing your next iPhone (that may be some deliberate hyperbole on my part). Bringing the best and brightest minds to America at least helps bolster the supply of STEM labor in America, which all sides agree is paltry. Not even protectionist's sources deny that a small percentage of our native-born children actually enter any STEM field of study. There is some debate on the percentage of those who do enter a STEM field of study also graduating from a STEM field of study.
Guestworkers in the high-skill U.S. labor market: An analysis of supply, employment, and wage trends | Economic Policy Institute

Brief Aside: I find it odd that protectionist cites left-wing sources, specifically the Economic Policy Institute. Does he know that is a left-wing source?​

This leads me to potential for growth. As discussed earlier, potential for growth in STEM industries does require a pool of talent in those fields. In order to start a business in STEM, besides a personal practice (such as a licensed Professional Engineer), one needs to consider the pool of talent available where you intend to open shop. Can you encourage a pool of talent to move there? That is exactly what happened with the missile industry in California in the mid-twentieth century. The companies created these innovative and sometimes space-age looking recruitment campaigns to get young engineering graduates from the east to move out west. If you don't have these Hollywood-esque resources, then maybe one will open up shop were a pool of talent already exists. So here's the rub... if we as a nation continue to educate such a paltry number of STEM graduates, those pools of talent will dry up. That's one of the reasons Power Engineering is so hot, there have been so few graduates for decades and now that one specific corner of the STEM workforce is on average looking at retirement. New opportunity cannot arise without a pool of labor. Entrepreneurs cannot find new opportunities if no talent pool exists. If the technical talent pool declines, so too will job creation.

So why is protectionist upset about smart brown people moving to America?

This is not about tariffs, this is about immigration.

His name is "protectionist" not "racist".

 

[RKMBrown]

Shortage of skilled workers in America ?

There are simply no structural changes capable of explaining the pattern of sustained high unemployment over the last five years. What we have, instead, is an aggregate demand problem. The reason we are not seeing robust job growth is because businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up in a way that would require them to significantly ramp up hiring. The right policies for the present moment are, therefore, straightforward.

And the first and foremost policy would be to stop immigration (legal and illegal) which contributing highly to the lack of aggregate demand. No, businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up, and one of the primary reasons is because he dollars$$$ that ordinarily would flow into their cash registers, are instead flowing out of the country in wires (remittances$$$) sent by immigrants.

Federation for American Immigrant Reform: The Myth of a Skilled Worker Shortage - Council on Foreign Relations

Is There Really a Shortage of Skilled Workers? | Economic Policy Institute

A host of academic studies have debunked the notion—but you don’t need a Ph.D. to figure it out. You just need to recognize the law of supply and demand.

“It’s hard not to break out laughing,” one economist noted recently. “If there’s a skills shortage, there has to be rises in wages [for skilled workers]. It’s basic economics.”

Yet wages in manufacturing—even for skilled workers—are stagnant at best.

Skills Gap a Convenient Myth | Labor Notes

Robert J. Samuelson: Skilled worker shortage mostly a myth | UTSanDiego.com

Nonsense.

The structural change paralleling this unemployment is the democrats throwing out the welfare reforms signed under clinton. The democrats took away the incentives to get off welfare. Now there is no incentive to get off.

Whether or not welfare reform was effective in reducing welfare rolls does not factor into the skilled labor supply debate... unless graduates are going on Welfare.

First things first, STEM laborers are not the only type of skilled labor in this country. STEM is a field that gets a lot of publicity and is widely regarded as always in demand, almost as if the demand for STEM labor is inelastic.


For years, everything I had seen and read demonstrated a sharp lack of native-born STEM graduates and a demand that could never be filled. So I was perplexed when someone first challenged this notion.
President Obama?s Google Plus ?hangout? claims about engineering demand - The Washington Post

There are some things I'd ask us to keep in mind: Over-aggregation, dynamic labor markets (both domestic and global) and potential for growth.

Think about the level of aggregation involved in talking about "STEM" graduates. That's to say the term treats someone with a PhD in solid state physics as that pertains to semiconductor design the same as someone with a CCENT certificate, with no offense intended to either party as the PhD or the entry-level Cisco technician may not want or be able to do the other's job. There are different categories within STEM. The article from the Washington Post details the unemployment rates for different types of engineers. As can be seen from the article, as different technical challenges are encountered by industry, demands for labor change. This means that one category of STEM might be hot and another category of STEM might be "not". Even within these categories there are subcategories. One discipline within electrical engineering is "power engineering", which was a discipline considered to be proverbially on the ropes in the 90s. Today it is hot. Why?
Career Focus: Power Engineering

So we see there is a dynamic labor market. I noticed in the article from the washington post that the jobless engineer interviewed had some familial obligations that kept him in the Ft Worth area in spite of layoffs. Nothing lasts in perpetuity, and the article glosses over the engineer's inability to relocate. Often, when performing a service for someone else, especially in manufacturing, one must relocate to where the job is needed. Relocation happens. It is sad when a huge plant shuts down and people have mortgages and kids in school and moving is a terrible burden, but then so is unemployment. That's the dynamics of the domestic market at work. New skills, new locations. What about the dynamics of the global market? As low income nations are empowered through global labor arbitrage, the citizens of those nations will be better educated and be capable of providing more expensive services, such as design services. Because of this relatively cheap and massive supply of STEM labor, we can expect entrepreneurs to recognize the potential of that pool of talent in developing countries and take advantage of that talent pool. To what extent is obviously dependent on the industry and exact type of service. Why not write server software in PHP in Bangalore? Heck, I don't know why there is so much fuss about immigrants who want to do these jobs living here. At least they'll be Americans doing the jobs! It's better than communist China both building and designing your next iPhone (that may be some deliberate hyperbole on my part). Bringing the best and brightest minds to America at least helps bolster the supply of STEM labor in America, which all sides agree is paltry. Not even protectionist's sources deny that a small percentage of our native-born children actually enter any STEM field of study. There is some debate on the percentage of those who do enter a STEM field of study also graduating from a STEM field of study.
Guestworkers in the high-skill U.S. labor market: An analysis of supply, employment, and wage trends | Economic Policy Institute

Brief Aside: I find it odd that protectionist cites left-wing sources, specifically the Economic Policy Institute. Does he know that is a left-wing source?​

This leads me to potential for growth. As discussed earlier, potential for growth in STEM industries does require a pool of talent in those fields. In order to start a business in STEM, besides a personal practice (such as a licensed Professional Engineer), one needs to consider the pool of talent available where you intend to open shop. Can you encourage a pool of talent to move there? That is exactly what happened with the missile industry in California in the mid-twentieth century. The companies created these innovative and sometimes space-age looking recruitment campaigns to get young engineering graduates from the east to move out west. If you don't have these Hollywood-esque resources, then maybe one will open up shop were a pool of talent already exists. So here's the rub... if we as a nation continue to educate such a paltry number of STEM graduates, those pools of talent will dry up. That's one of the reasons Power Engineering is so hot, there have been so few graduates for decades and now that one specific corner of the STEM workforce is on average looking at retirement. New opportunity cannot arise without a pool of labor. Entrepreneurs cannot find new opportunities if no talent pool exists. If the technical talent pool declines, so too will job creation.

So why is protectionist upset about smart brown people moving to America?

This is not about tariffs, this is about immigration.

His name is "protectionist" not "racist".

Wrong.

There are many issues and many types of jobs.

You are focused like a laser on Engineering jobs. You can't take just any one off the street and tell them, hey your an Engineer now.

Most of our Engineers find jobs. Those folks are not the ones out of work. Sure they need to be willing to relocate to the jobs and they do. Sure they need to keep their skills up to match the changing market and they do. Sure there is a push to bring in cheap foreign engineers to undercut American workers and they do. But that's a small portion of the unemployment problem in America.

Just because there is a market for Engineers does not mean we need to force children to study engineering. The kids who want to find work are finding work.

In the Engineering market what I see is a decided push to young and foreign workers to reset the wages being paid for same. The dot com bubble pushed wage rates in America beyond reasonable rates when compared to other countries. Further there has always been a decided bias in the market against older engineers. Thus as our population ages...

But all that is just a small portion of the unemployment problem.

The bigger problem is all the other jobs and all the other types of workers. Then more particularly the tens of millions of Americans who are willing to sit on their ass and be paid to do nothing. Yeah that's the big problem. I'm talking about tens of millions of Americans that are willing to be parasites on the rest of us. You are talking about hundreds of thousands that supposedly have the wrong skill set or are in the wrong location, most of which actually have jobs if not the jobs they have the most experience in.

I don't know a single technical guy or engineer that is out of work. Many of them are under-employed, or working a different industry. When you've been laid off by your employer so they can move the work to China, or make room for a nice young chap from India that is willing to do your job for 1/3 what you were getting, it takes some of the passion out of that job.

My youngest son just got a full ride scholarship.. he's quite frankly "brilliant." He could easily become anything he wants to be. My rec. to him was to study bio-medical engineering on a track to become a physician. IMO he'll be better off financially if he goes on to become a doctor vs. an Engineer, but we'll see which he chooses.

It used to be smart Americans wanted to be Engineers or Doctors. Now it's Lawyers, then Doctors and Engineers. But to be a doctor you have to go into massive debt then fight our government regulations and insurance companies your whole life. To be an Engineer you have to fight for scraps due to the importing of competition and exporting of the jobs that can be done off-shore.

We have become a country that uses a ton of it's financial and intellectual capital to stop progress from occurring in this country. Odd that it pays to not work and/or pays to stop people from producing.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

Wrong.

There are many issues and many types of jobs.

You are focused like a laser on Engineering jobs. You can't take just any one off the street and tell them, hey your an Engineer now.

Most of our Engineers find jobs. Those folks are not the ones out of work. Sure they need to be willing to relocate to the jobs and they do. Sure they need to keep their skills up to match the changing market and they do. Sure there is a push to bring in cheap foreign engineers to undercut American workers and they do. But that's a small portion of the unemployment problem in America.

Just because there is a market for Engineers does not mean we need to force children to study engineering. The kids who want to find work are finding work.

In the Engineering market what I see is a decided push to young and foreign workers to reset the wages being paid for same. The dot com bubble pushed wage rates in America beyond reasonable rates when compared to other countries. Further there has always been a decided bias in the market against older engineers. Thus as our population ages...

But all that is just a small portion of the unemployment problem.

The bigger problem is all the other jobs and all the other types of workers. Then more particularly the tens of millions of Americans who are willing to sit on their ass and be paid to do nothing. Yeah that's the big problem. I'm talking about tens of millions of Americans that are willing to be parasites on the rest of us. You are talking about hundreds of thousands that supposedly have the wrong skill set or are in the wrong location, most of which actually have jobs if not the jobs they have the most experience in.

I don't know a single technical guy or engineer that is out of work. Many of them are under-employed, or working a different industry. When you've been laid off by your employer so they can move the work to China, or make room for a nice young chap from India that is willing to do your job for 1/3 what you were getting, it takes some of the passion out of that job.

My youngest son just got a full ride scholarship.. he's quite frankly "brilliant." He could easily become anything he wants to be. My rec. to him was to study bio-medical engineering on a track to become a physician. IMO he'll be better off financially if he goes on to become a doctor vs. an Engineer, but we'll see which he chooses.

It used to be smart Americans wanted to be Engineers or Doctors. Now it's Lawyers, then Doctors and Engineers. But to be a doctor you have to go into massive debt then fight our government regulations and insurance companies your whole life. To be an Engineer you have to fight for scraps due to the importing of competition and exporting of the jobs that can be done off-shore.

We have become a country that uses a ton of it's financial and intellectual capital to stop progress from occurring in this country. Odd that it pays to not work and/or pays to stop people from producing.

RKMBrown,

The links provided by protectionist talk about skilled labor and one focuses on STEM. The EPI has several articles on STEM, related to the EPI link protectionist provided. I focused on STEM, that's true.

I'm not sure we disagree that much on the state of unemployment among engineers. Are you for or against immigration for the purposes of bringing smart people into the United States? I am for it.

 

[protectionist]

Shortage of skilled workers in America ?

There are simply no structural changes capable of explaining the pattern of sustained high unemployment over the last five years. What we have, instead, is an aggregate demand problem. The reason we are not seeing robust job growth is because businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up in a way that would require them to significantly ramp up hiring. The right policies for the present moment are, therefore, straightforward.

And the first and foremost policy would be to stop immigration (legal and illegal) which contributing highly to the lack of aggregate demand. No, businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up, and one of the primary reasons is because he dollars$$$ that ordinarily would flow into their cash registers, are instead flowing out of the country in wires (remittances$$$) sent by immigrants.

Federation for American Immigrant Reform: The Myth of a Skilled Worker Shortage - Council on Foreign Relations

Is There Really a Shortage of Skilled Workers? | Economic Policy Institute

A host of academic studies have debunked the notion—but you don’t need a Ph.D. to figure it out. You just need to recognize the law of supply and demand.

“It’s hard not to break out laughing,” one economist noted recently. “If there’s a skills shortage, there has to be rises in wages [for skilled workers]. It’s basic economics.”

Yet wages in manufacturing—even for skilled workers—are stagnant at best.

Skills Gap a Convenient Myth | Labor Notes

Robert J. Samuelson: Skilled worker shortage mostly a myth | UTSanDiego.com

Nonsense.

The structural change paralleling this unemployment is the democrats throwing out the welfare reforms signed under clinton. The democrats took away the incentives to get off welfare. Now there is no incentive to get off.

You start off with the word "Nonsense". Then you present a thought that has nothing to do with the quote you were calling nonsense. My post was talking about the myth of a "labor shortage" (which is a trumped up ploy designed to allow greedy, unscrupulous businesses to acquire cheap, foreign labor). If there actually was a labor shortage (there isn't), AND if welfare was easy to get (it isn't) then MAYBE, you might have had a case to make.

 

[protectionist]

Shortage of skilled workers in America ?

There are simply no structural changes capable of explaining the pattern of sustained high unemployment over the last five years. What we have, instead, is an aggregate demand problem. The reason we are not seeing robust job growth is because businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up in a way that would require them to significantly ramp up hiring. The right policies for the present moment are, therefore, straightforward.

And the first and foremost policy would be to stop immigration (legal and illegal) which contributing highly to the lack of aggregate demand. No, businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up, and one of the primary reasons is because he dollars$$$ that ordinarily would flow into their cash registers, are instead flowing out of the country in wires (remittances$$$) sent by immigrants.

Federation for American Immigrant Reform: The Myth of a Skilled Worker Shortage - Council on Foreign Relations

Is There Really a Shortage of Skilled Workers? | Economic Policy Institute

A host of academic studies have debunked the notion—but you don’t need a Ph.D. to figure it out. You just need to recognize the law of supply and demand.

“It’s hard not to break out laughing,” one economist noted recently. “If there’s a skills shortage, there has to be rises in wages [for skilled workers]. It’s basic economics.”

Yet wages in manufacturing—even for skilled workers—are stagnant at best.

Skills Gap a Convenient Myth | Labor Notes

Robert J. Samuelson: Skilled worker shortage mostly a myth | UTSanDiego.com

Nonsense.

The structural change paralleling this unemployment is the democrats throwing out the welfare reforms signed under clinton. The democrats took away the incentives to get off welfare. Now there is no incentive to get off.

Whether or not welfare reform was effective in reducing welfare rolls does not factor into the skilled labor supply debate... unless graduates are going on Welfare.

First things first, STEM laborers are not the only type of skilled labor in this country. STEM is a field that gets a lot of publicity and is widely regarded as always in demand, almost as if the demand for STEM labor is inelastic.


For years, everything I had seen and read demonstrated a sharp lack of native-born STEM graduates and a demand that could never be filled. So I was perplexed when someone first challenged this notion.
President Obama?s Google Plus ?hangout? claims about engineering demand - The Washington Post

There are some things I'd ask us to keep in mind: Over-aggregation, dynamic labor markets (both domestic and global) and potential for growth.

Think about the level of aggregation involved in talking about "STEM" graduates. That's to say the term treats someone with a PhD in solid state physics as that pertains to semiconductor design the same as someone with a CCENT certificate, with no offense intended to either party as the PhD or the entry-level Cisco technician may not want or be able to do the other's job. There are different categories within STEM. The article from the Washington Post details the unemployment rates for different types of engineers. As can be seen from the article, as different technical challenges are encountered by industry, demands for labor change. This means that one category of STEM might be hot and another category of STEM might be "not". Even within these categories there are subcategories. One discipline within electrical engineering is "power engineering", which was a discipline considered to be proverbially on the ropes in the 90s. Today it is hot. Why?
Career Focus: Power Engineering

So we see there is a dynamic labor market. I noticed in the article from the washington post that the jobless engineer interviewed had some familial obligations that kept him in the Ft Worth area in spite of layoffs. Nothing lasts in perpetuity, and the article glosses over the engineer's inability to relocate. Often, when performing a service for someone else, especially in manufacturing, one must relocate to where the job is needed. Relocation happens. It is sad when a huge plant shuts down and people have mortgages and kids in school and moving is a terrible burden, but then so is unemployment. That's the dynamics of the domestic market at work. New skills, new locations. What about the dynamics of the global market? As low income nations are empowered through global labor arbitrage, the citizens of those nations will be better educated and be capable of providing more expensive services, such as design services. Because of this relatively cheap and massive supply of STEM labor, we can expect entrepreneurs to recognize the potential of that pool of talent in developing countries and take advantage of that talent pool. To what extent is obviously dependent on the industry and exact type of service. Why not write server software in PHP in Bangalore? Heck, I don't know why there is so much fuss about immigrants who want to do these jobs living here. At least they'll be Americans doing the jobs! It's better than communist China both building and designing your next iPhone (that may be some deliberate hyperbole on my part). Bringing the best and brightest minds to America at least helps bolster the supply of STEM labor in America, which all sides agree is paltry. Not even protectionist's sources deny that a small percentage of our native-born children actually enter any STEM field of study. There is some debate on the percentage of those who do enter a STEM field of study also graduating from a STEM field of study.
Guestworkers in the high-skill U.S. labor market: An analysis of supply, employment, and wage trends | Economic Policy Institute

Brief Aside: I find it odd that protectionist cites left-wing sources, specifically the Economic Policy Institute. Does he know that is a left-wing source?​

This leads me to potential for growth. As discussed earlier, potential for growth in STEM industries does require a pool of talent in those fields. In order to start a business in STEM, besides a personal practice (such as a licensed Professional Engineer), one needs to consider the pool of talent available where you intend to open shop. Can you encourage a pool of talent to move there? That is exactly what happened with the missile industry in California in the mid-twentieth century. The companies created these innovative and sometimes space-age looking recruitment campaigns to get young engineering graduates from the east to move out west. If you don't have these Hollywood-esque resources, then maybe one will open up shop were a pool of talent already exists. So here's the rub... if we as a nation continue to educate such a paltry number of STEM graduates, those pools of talent will dry up. That's one of the reasons Power Engineering is so hot, there have been so few graduates for decades and now that one specific corner of the STEM workforce is on average looking at retirement. New opportunity cannot arise without a pool of labor. Entrepreneurs cannot find new opportunities if no talent pool exists. If the technical talent pool declines, so too will job creation.

So why is protectionist upset about smart brown people moving to America?

This is not about tariffs, this is about immigration.

His name is "protectionist" not "racist".

First protectionist being 50% "brown" himself, doesn't care about race. As for why I care about smart, or stupid, or brown, or black, or white people comng to America ?

HERE'S WHY >>

Harms of Immigration

1. Americans lose jobs. (especially Whites due to affirmative action).

2. Wage reduction.

3. Tax $ lost (due to off books work + lower wages paid).

4. Remittance $$$ lost. ($170 Billion year).

5. Tax $$ lost to immigrants on welfare.

6. Increased crime.

7. Increased traffic congestion.

8. Increased pollution.

9. Overcrowding in hospital ERs.

10. Overcrowding in recreational facilities.

11. Overcrowding in government offices.

12. Overcrowding in schools.

13. Decrease in funds available for entitlements.

14. Cultural erosion.

15. Overuse of scarce resources (oil, gasoline, fresh water, jobs, electricity, food, etc)

16. Introduction of foreign diseases.

 

[protectionist]

Wrong.

There are many issues and many types of jobs.

You are focused like a laser on Engineering jobs. You can't take just any one off the street and tell them, hey your an Engineer now.

Most of our Engineers find jobs. Those folks are not the ones out of work. Sure they need to be willing to relocate to the jobs and they do. Sure they need to keep their skills up to match the changing market and they do. Sure there is a push to bring in cheap foreign engineers to undercut American workers and they do. But that's a small portion of the unemployment problem in America.

Just because there is a market for Engineers does not mean we need to force children to study engineering. The kids who want to find work are finding work.

In the Engineering market what I see is a decided push to young and foreign workers to reset the wages being paid for same. The dot com bubble pushed wage rates in America beyond reasonable rates when compared to other countries. Further there has always been a decided bias in the market against older engineers. Thus as our population ages...

But all that is just a small portion of the unemployment problem.

The bigger problem is all the other jobs and all the other types of workers. Then more particularly the tens of millions of Americans who are willing to sit on their ass and be paid to do nothing. Yeah that's the big problem. I'm talking about tens of millions of Americans that are willing to be parasites on the rest of us. You are talking about hundreds of thousands that supposedly have the wrong skill set or are in the wrong location, most of which actually have jobs if not the jobs they have the most experience in.

I don't know a single technical guy or engineer that is out of work. Many of them are under-employed, or working a different industry. When you've been laid off by your employer so they can move the work to China, or make room for a nice young chap from India that is willing to do your job for 1/3 what you were getting, it takes some of the passion out of that job.

My youngest son just got a full ride scholarship.. he's quite frankly "brilliant." He could easily become anything he wants to be. My rec. to him was to study bio-medical engineering on a track to become a physician. IMO he'll be better off financially if he goes on to become a doctor vs. an Engineer, but we'll see which he chooses.

It used to be smart Americans wanted to be Engineers or Doctors. Now it's Lawyers, then Doctors and Engineers. But to be a doctor you have to go into massive debt then fight our government regulations and insurance companies your whole life. To be an Engineer you have to fight for scraps due to the importing of competition and exporting of the jobs that can be done off-shore.

We have become a country that uses a ton of it's financial and intellectual capital to stop progress from occurring in this country. Odd that it pays to not work and/or pays to stop people from producing.

RKMBrown,

The links provided by protectionist talk about skilled labor and one focuses on STEM. The EPI has several articles on STEM, related to the EPI link protectionist provided. I focused on STEM, that's true.

I'm not sure we disagree that much on the state of unemployment among engineers. Are you for or against immigration for the purposes of bringing smart people into the United States? I am for it.

Considering how massively destructive it is to America, I ask WHY are you for it ? Do you have some particular relationship to this ?

 

[RKMBrown]

Wrong.

There are many issues and many types of jobs.

You are focused like a laser on Engineering jobs. You can't take just any one off the street and tell them, hey your an Engineer now.

Most of our Engineers find jobs. Those folks are not the ones out of work. Sure they need to be willing to relocate to the jobs and they do. Sure they need to keep their skills up to match the changing market and they do. Sure there is a push to bring in cheap foreign engineers to undercut American workers and they do. But that's a small portion of the unemployment problem in America.

Just because there is a market for Engineers does not mean we need to force children to study engineering. The kids who want to find work are finding work.

In the Engineering market what I see is a decided push to young and foreign workers to reset the wages being paid for same. The dot com bubble pushed wage rates in America beyond reasonable rates when compared to other countries. Further there has always been a decided bias in the market against older engineers. Thus as our population ages...

But all that is just a small portion of the unemployment problem.

The bigger problem is all the other jobs and all the other types of workers. Then more particularly the tens of millions of Americans who are willing to sit on their ass and be paid to do nothing. Yeah that's the big problem. I'm talking about tens of millions of Americans that are willing to be parasites on the rest of us. You are talking about hundreds of thousands that supposedly have the wrong skill set or are in the wrong location, most of which actually have jobs if not the jobs they have the most experience in.

I don't know a single technical guy or engineer that is out of work. Many of them are under-employed, or working a different industry. When you've been laid off by your employer so they can move the work to China, or make room for a nice young chap from India that is willing to do your job for 1/3 what you were getting, it takes some of the passion out of that job.

My youngest son just got a full ride scholarship.. he's quite frankly "brilliant." He could easily become anything he wants to be. My rec. to him was to study bio-medical engineering on a track to become a physician. IMO he'll be better off financially if he goes on to become a doctor vs. an Engineer, but we'll see which he chooses.

It used to be smart Americans wanted to be Engineers or Doctors. Now it's Lawyers, then Doctors and Engineers. But to be a doctor you have to go into massive debt then fight our government regulations and insurance companies your whole life. To be an Engineer you have to fight for scraps due to the importing of competition and exporting of the jobs that can be done off-shore.

We have become a country that uses a ton of it's financial and intellectual capital to stop progress from occurring in this country. Odd that it pays to not work and/or pays to stop people from producing.

RKMBrown,

The links provided by protectionist talk about skilled labor and one focuses on STEM. The EPI has several articles on STEM, related to the EPI link protectionist provided. I focused on STEM, that's true.

I'm not sure we disagree that much on the state of unemployment among engineers. Are you for or against immigration for the purposes of bringing smart people into the United States? I am for it.

Your question is to broad. There are many types of immigration. Legal and Illegal. Within legal there are school visas, immigration visas, h1b visas...

I'm for limited immigration of people willing to work while seeking to become Americans. I'm against h1b visas designed for use by American corporations to bring in scabs to lower American salaries, educate foreign workers then send those workers back to their home country to establish jobs in their native country working for American Corporations on foreign soil at greatly reduced rates.

It's an outright lie that we are short of American Engineering Labor. What they mean is there is a shortage of American Engineers begging to work for entry level salary and/or willing to move to India, China, Brazil... to become an ex-Patriot.

 

[RKMBrown]

Shortage of skilled workers in America ?

There are simply no structural changes capable of explaining the pattern of sustained high unemployment over the last five years. What we have, instead, is an aggregate demand problem. The reason we are not seeing robust job growth is because businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up in a way that would require them to significantly ramp up hiring. The right policies for the present moment are, therefore, straightforward.

And the first and foremost policy would be to stop immigration (legal and illegal) which contributing highly to the lack of aggregate demand. No, businesses have not seen demand for their goods and services pick up, and one of the primary reasons is because he dollars$$$ that ordinarily would flow into their cash registers, are instead flowing out of the country in wires (remittances$$$) sent by immigrants.

Federation for American Immigrant Reform: The Myth of a Skilled Worker Shortage - Council on Foreign Relations

Is There Really a Shortage of Skilled Workers? | Economic Policy Institute

A host of academic studies have debunked the notion—but you don’t need a Ph.D. to figure it out. You just need to recognize the law of supply and demand.

“It’s hard not to break out laughing,” one economist noted recently. “If there’s a skills shortage, there has to be rises in wages [for skilled workers]. It’s basic economics.”

Yet wages in manufacturing—even for skilled workers—are stagnant at best.

Skills Gap a Convenient Myth | Labor Notes

Robert J. Samuelson: Skilled worker shortage mostly a myth | UTSanDiego.com

Nonsense.

The structural change paralleling this unemployment is the democrats throwing out the welfare reforms signed under clinton. The democrats took away the incentives to get off welfare. Now there is no incentive to get off.

You start off with the word "Nonsense". Then you present a thought that has nothing to do with the quote you were calling nonsense. My post was talking about the myth of a "labor shortage" (which is a trumped up ploy designed to allow greedy, unscrupulous businesses to acquire cheap, foreign labor). If there actually was a labor shortage (there isn't), AND if welfare was easy to get (it isn't) then MAYBE, you might have had a case to make.

You said and I quote, "There are simply no structural changes capable of explaining the pattern of sustained high unemployment over the last five years."

My response to that sentence was, "Nonsense, the structural change paralleling this unemployment is the democrats throwing out the welfare reforms signed under clinton. The democrats took away the incentives to get off welfare. Now there is no incentive to get off."

I'll repeat you said there are no structural changes that might explain this unemployment. My response was directly to that sentence. My response is that there most certainly is/was a structural change that explains our current unemployment.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

RKMBrown,

The links provided by protectionist talk about skilled labor and one focuses on STEM. The EPI has several articles on STEM, related to the EPI link protectionist provided. I focused on STEM, that's true.

I'm not sure we disagree that much on the state of unemployment among engineers. Are you for or against immigration for the purposes of bringing smart people into the United States? I am for it.

Your question is to broad. There are many types of immigration. Legal and Illegal. Within legal there are school visas, immigration visas, h1b visas...

I'm for limited immigration of people willing to work while seeking to become Americans. I'm against h1b visas designed for use by American corporations to bring in scabs to lower American salaries, educate foreign workers then send those workers back to their home country to establish jobs in their native country working for American Corporations on foreign soil at greatly reduced rates.

It's an outright lie that we are short of American Engineering Labor. What they mean is there is a shortage of American Engineers begging to work for entry level salary and/or willing to move to India, China, Brazil... to become an ex-Patriot.

I prefer paths to citizenship. Our nation was founded on immigrants becoming citizens.
"Europe was created by history. America was created by philosophy." - Margaret Thatcher

I'm not so sure it is an outright lie that we are short on American Engineering labor. As you said earlier, you don't know any unemployed engineers. Full employment or near full employment is actually a problem. There should always be some transient unemployment that makes up an unemployment rate as people migrate to new disciplines and as businesses rise and fall.

That's not to say that there is no element of dishonesty whereby the problem is exaggerated to convince Congress to allow certain interests to drive wages down. I'm not saying you're wrong. I think the issue has multiple contributing factors.

Ultimately, as this pertains to immigration, I don't think immigration is to blame. As you said, immigrants looking to become citizens are not the problem. The problem is multifaceted.

 

[RKMBrown]

RKMBrown,

The links provided by protectionist talk about skilled labor and one focuses on STEM. The EPI has several articles on STEM, related to the EPI link protectionist provided. I focused on STEM, that's true.

I'm not sure we disagree that much on the state of unemployment among engineers. Are you for or against immigration for the purposes of bringing smart people into the United States? I am for it.

Your question is to broad. There are many types of immigration. Legal and Illegal. Within legal there are school visas, immigration visas, h1b visas...

I'm for limited immigration of people willing to work while seeking to become Americans. I'm against h1b visas designed for use by American corporations to bring in scabs to lower American salaries, educate foreign workers then send those workers back to their home country to establish jobs in their native country working for American Corporations on foreign soil at greatly reduced rates.

It's an outright lie that we are short of American Engineering Labor. What they mean is there is a shortage of American Engineers begging to work for entry level salary and/or willing to move to India, China, Brazil... to become an ex-Patriot.

I prefer paths to citizenship. Our nation was founded on immigrants becoming citizens.
"Europe was created by history. America was created by philosophy." - Margaret Thatcher

I'm not so sure it is an outright lie that we are short on American Engineering labor. As you said earlier, you don't know any unemployed engineers. Full employment or near full employment is actually a problem. There should always be some transient unemployment that makes up an unemployment rate as people migrate to new disciplines and as businesses rise and fall.

That's not to say that there is no element of dishonesty whereby the problem is exaggerated to convince Congress to allow certain interests to drive wages down. I'm not saying you're wrong. I think the issue has multiple contributing factors.

Ultimately, as this pertains to immigration, I don't think immigration is to blame. As you said, immigrants looking to become citizens are not the problem. The problem is multifaceted.

Yes paths to citizenship are better than temporary employment meant to displace American labor.

When I said I did not know any unemployed engineers I meant unemployed in the larger sense. To elaborate further: I know great Engineers who are now selling houses, filing patents, teaching as a professor, making videos for weddings, practicing law, practicing as a physician, managing people, semi-retired (early retirement), living as an ex-Patriot in another country, .... I would estimate well over half of the best of the best of my Engineer friends are no longer employed as Engineers in a full time engineering job. They have been effectively chased off to other more profitable and/or stable careers.

 

[Kondor3]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

 

[RKMBrown]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

No. To that issue we established that the safety net needs to have limits such that people will be encouraged to get off the gravy train. Giving welfare recipients training paid for on the backs of the American taxpayer does not put them back to work. It just makes you feel better.

 

[Kondor3]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

No. To that issue we established that the safety net needs to have limits such that people will be encouraged to get off the gravy train. Giving welfare recipients training paid for on the backs of the American taxpayer does not put them back to work. It just makes you feel better.

Well, that's one opinion.

I vote otherwise; to train or re-train the American to do the job.

Better than bringing-in an outsider, while leaving a mouth to feed amongst our own.

We take care of our own, first.

Then, if we can't find any other way to fill the job, then, and only then, do we go to the outside.

 

[Unkotare]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

Improving education is key, but is a generational task. Very few 40 year-old unskilled workers are going to be able to "retrain" for work in a high-tech field. Can't hurt to try, but we can't afford to wait a generation or so to fill all the jobs in need of qualified workers right now. Start with the kids in school now, and adapt to the changing needs of a modern economy.

 

[RKMBrown]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

No. To that issue we established that the safety net needs to have limits such that people will be encouraged to get off the gravy train. Giving welfare recipients training paid for on the backs of the American taxpayer does not put them back to work. It just makes you feel better.

Well, that's one opinion.

I vote otherwise; to train or re-train the American to do the job.

Better than bringing-in an outsider, while leaving a mouth to feed amongst our own.

We take care of our own, first.

Then, if we can't find any other way to fill the job, then, and only then, do we go to the outside.

How do you propose to do this forced retraining of American citizens? How do you propose to force them to use the training we shoved down their throats? What you you propose we force them to be retrained in? Maybe your job? What do you do for a living? How would you like it if we use your tax dollars to retrain Americans to take your job from you? What are you gonna do to these people when they suck at this new job we forced them to be retrained for? We gonna let them starve this time, or are we gonna just find a 3rd, 4th, 5th etc job for them till we have forced them to retrain in something they like that also pays a living?

We are paying good tax payer dollars to fund kids to among other things learn how to be rap stars. Is that a good way to spend tax payer dollars?

 

[Kondor3]

No. To that issue we established that the safety net needs to have limits such that people will be encouraged to get off the gravy train. Giving welfare recipients training paid for on the backs of the American taxpayer does not put them back to work. It just makes you feel better.

Well, that's one opinion.

I vote otherwise; to train or re-train the American to do the job.

Better than bringing-in an outsider, while leaving a mouth to feed amongst our own.

We take care of our own, first.

Then, if we can't find any other way to fill the job, then, and only then, do we go to the outside.

How do you propose to do this forced retraining of American citizens?...

No force whatsoever, and strictly voluntarily, from the worker end.

We have model programming in-place already, for this purpose.

The Federal 'Workforce Investment Act' (WIA), with US Dept of Labor funding, as well as State-level and local-level Funding, passing down to the County level, for recruitment and local administration, in collaboration with local colleges and trade schools.

...How do you propose to force them to use the training we shoved down their throats?...

No shoving of training down throats.

No forcing them to do anything.

Speaking only for myself, I am not proposing WorkFare.

...What you you propose we force them to be retrained in?...

Depends, on a county-by-county basis.

WIA programs, working with State- and Federal -level Depts of Labor, routinely canvass their local counties, determining on an annual basis, what jobs, trades, etc., are most in demand within those jurisdictions, and those sorts of rolls get first priority, on WIA training dollars.

In my own county in Illinois, at present, this means Network Engineers, Network Administrators, Website Developers, Database Developers and Administrators, Technology Help Desk Workers, Computer Repair Technicians, CDL-licensed heavy truck drivers, forklift operators, factory machinists and tool & die workers, CNC programmers, plumbing apprentices, electrician apprentices, medical records specialists, nurse-assistants and nurses, cooks, chefs and other food prep staffers, and on and on and on... probably six or seven dozen jobs, roles, trades, etc., that are high in demand within the county, and for which the local WIA Board will allocate WIA grant money for eligible candidates who jump through the hoops to get the grant.

...Maybe your job?...

If there aren't enough folks available to do the kind of job that I do, I'd certainly support training Americans to join me in what I do, and getting them off welfare, rather than bringing in hired-guns from outside the country, to do the job.

What do you do for a living?

Not that it's any of your business, but I'm an independent technology consultant; having managed mid-range hardware and software departments for manufacturers, nationwide logistics and distribution, and national and metro-level charity and nonprofit social services agencies.

How would you like it if we use your tax dollars to retrain Americans to take your job from you?

If my job is at-issue, and if I'm going to lose it anyway, then, what-the-hell... I'd rather it go to a fellow American than go to a foreigner, especially if it gets that American off of welfare for good.

...What are you gonna do to these people when they suck at this new job we forced them to be retrained for?...

1. again, we're not forcing them.

2. we minimize the likelihood that they'll suck, by vetting them properly prior to training; all kinds of standardized tests designed to weed-out the unlikely prospects; some counties make their WIA grant applicants jump through a lot of hoops to ensure commitment; hell, some even require mandatory 1- or 2- week -long Boot Camps re: reading, logic, math, writing, ethics, communications, teamwork, leadership, etc., including segment-testing; flunk the tests, you don't get the grant money. Some counties are more lax than that.

...We gonna let them starve this time, or are we gonna just find a 3rd, 4th, 5th etc job for them till we have forced them to retrain in something they like that also pays a living? ...

For those who DO fail, of course we don't let them starve. Lighten up on the dramatics, eh?

WIA training, as I recall, is a one-time training grant.

Either you make it, and run with it, or you slide back into the morass; your choice.

If we ever see fit to broaden such initiatives, I'm sure we can tweak the "Second Chance" idea, as seems best to everyone, on a county-by-county or State or Federal basis.

...We are paying good tax payer dollars to fund kids to among other things learn how to be rap stars. Is that a good way to spend tax payer dollars?

I don't recall 'Rap Star' being an In-Demand Job in the WIA Grant Priority Lists of the DuPage Count, Will County, or Lake County, Illinois, WIA publications for employers and grant-seekers. Somehow, I don't think the local county Workforce Investment Board is gonna give-out grant money for Rap Star School.

===================

Bottom line... I'd much rather see us eat the front-end load to re-train an American rather than eat five or ten or twenty times as much, by propping-up that American with the Safety Net, because we went to the outside for a job we could have trained the American for.

Re-train an American, and you spend a dime (training), to make a dollar (in saved welfare costs).

Bring in the outsider rather than re-train the American, and you eventually spend a dollar (in welfare costs), to save a dime (refrain from re-training an American).

Once total costs to society are take into account, the 're-training option' begins to look quite attractive.

 

[Kondor3]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

Improving education is key, but is a generational task. Very few 40 year-old unskilled workers are going to be able to "retrain" for work in a high-tech field. Can't hurt to try, but we can't afford to wait a generation or so to fill all the jobs in need of qualified workers right now. Start with the kids in school now, and adapt to the changing needs of a modern economy.

A perfectly logical counterpoint.

Trouble is, going to the outside is the easy way out, for business, and so we never generate any incentive to change the dependency.

It's been that way for decades now... and it never gets any better.

Clearly, something different is required, in order to find that better balance.