Immigration is Destroying America.

[Unkotare]

Trouble with that is, if you offer a 'path to citizenship' for some, you're gonna get stuck offering a 'path to citizenship' for all Illegals

Why? I don't want to offer such a pathway to any illegal aliens.

I'm sure that you don't but the capitalists here aren't concerned by your opinion. They know the economics of the situation so why don't you?

Your attempt to jump in has failed, dimwit. Try again or just STFU.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Why? I don't want to offer such a pathway to any illegal aliens.

I'm sure that you don't but the capitalists here aren't concerned by your opinion. They know the economics of the situation so why don't you?

Your attempt to jump in has failed, dimwit. Try again or just STFU.

Yeah, reality eludes you shit-boy, just like your name.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

No. To that issue we established that the safety net needs to have limits such that people will be encouraged to get off the gravy train. Giving welfare recipients training paid for on the backs of the American taxpayer does not put them back to work. It just makes you feel better.

Well, that's one opinion.

I vote otherwise; to train or re-train the American to do the job.

Better than bringing-in an outsider, while leaving a mouth to feed amongst our own.

We take care of our own, first.

Then, if we can't find any other way to fill the job, then, and only then, do we go to the outside.

How do you propose to do this forced retraining of American citizens? How do you propose to force them to use the training we shoved down their throats? What you you propose we force them to be retrained in? Maybe your job? What do you do for a living? How would you like it if we use your tax dollars to retrain Americans to take your job from you? What are you gonna do to these people when they suck at this new job we forced them to be retrained for? We gonna let them starve this time, or are we gonna just find a 3rd, 4th, 5th etc job for them till we have forced them to retrain in something they like that also pays a living?

We are paying good tax payer dollars to fund kids to among other things learn how to be rap stars. Is that a good way to spend tax payer dollars?

I'm going to have to ask for some substantiation on the spending of tax payer dollars to teach kids to be rap stars. And I hope that substantiation does not include the introduction of hip hop into the local glee club.

As for retraining Americans, I think vocational training has great benefit, but it has to be kept realistic and a lot depends on the individual in question. We must first and foremost acknowledge that not everyone grows up to be an astronaut. That's hard. I like people. I don't like the fact that we must identify the limits people have demonstrated.

In the workplace, and right now I am strictly speaking about people with jobs, it's necessary to identify an employee's limits in order to give a subordinate a set of tasks that the subordinate can actually accomplish and maybe help them grow. What is the point of assigning a subordinate to a task far outside of their ability to accomplish?

The same holds true for retraining the unemployed. Not everyone can be retrained for every field. It's a harsh reality. Does that mean we abandon them to desperation?

So let's examine an extreme, what would be the point of sending an unemployed person to a four year degree program they don't want and have never demonstrated the capacity to handle? That is an extreme. It denies the individual self-determination and over-estimates their capabilities.

As it so happens, while we on this message board are waxing philosophic on the subject, there are organizations dedicated to realistically retraining people.
Vocational Rehabilitation Services for Persons with Disabilities | Jewish Vocational Service of MetroWest New Jersey (JVS)

Consider this: A man has a good job in auto repair. The man is badly injured in an accident and due to the subsequent physical disability, can work but cannot handle any physically strenuous labor. Now, the far-right demands this person be starved to death for the crime of being crippled. The far-left demands he surrender his free will and that the rest of his life be planned for him. There is an alternative, and people already do it.

During the process of physical rehabilitation, the newly disabled man also goes through "vocation rehabilitation" whereby his skills are assessed and he is found not lacking in the brains department. Some training is invested in him, and he finds he likes staying technical. Some more training is invested in him and he gets a part time gig doing some drafting. He likes it. Some more training is invested in him and he becomes a CAD operator (draftsman). He does well and becomes a technician. Notice the state and the charitable organization are no longer involved. Were they necessary? Yes, absolutely. Can the state get out of his life now that his life is back on track? Yes, absolutely.

There is no one solution to re-employ the unemployed. It's a case-by-case basis sort of thing.

 

[Unkotare]

I'm sure that you don't but the capitalists here aren't concerned by your opinion. They know the economics of the situation so why don't you?

Your attempt to jump in has failed, dimwit. Try again or just STFU.

Yeah, reality eludes you, just like your name.

Strike two, idiot.

 

[protectionist]

Improving education is key, but is a generational task. Very few 40 year-old unskilled workers are going to be able to "retrain" for work in a high-tech field. Can't hurt to try, but we can't afford to wait a generation or so to fill all the jobs in need of qualified workers right now. Start with the kids in school now, and adapt to the changing needs of a modern economy.

UTTER NONSENSE!! And directed only to those naive enough to fall for the SCAM that we need to retrain Americans, because we don't already have plenty of them on hand to do skilled work. This is the big SCAM JOB that greedy employers push. They PRETEND that there is a labor shortage of skilled workers (a myth obliterated repeatedly by my links in this thread).

There is NOTHING to "wait" for. The workers are here, fully skilled, and ready to work. Only problem is the employers (with the help of the federal govt) have settled into a habit of getting low-wage workers from overseas to keep their costs down.

When there's a labor shortage, wages are up. But they're not. They're down. All the way to the level that the foreigners will work for + cheaper, inferior working conditions, like they're used to in India, China, Mexico, etc.

Nah!
Suddenly every American Accountant, Attorney and Engineer woke up one morning and EVERYTHING was different!
Why, we don't even have Americans who can pump coffee, drive a bus or sweep a floor.
Only the business owners and CEO Lobbyists have the skills required for the 45th century!

NONSENSE!! Try reading the thread, and clicking the links before you come jumping in here talking foolishly. What you're saying, has already been proven wrong many times over, in here.

 

[protectionist]

Yes paths to citizenship are better than temporary employment meant to displace American labor.

When I said I did not know any unemployed engineers I meant unemployed in the larger sense. To elaborate further: I know great Engineers who are now selling houses, filing patents, teaching as a professor, making videos for weddings, practicing law, practicing as a physician, managing people, semi-retired (early retirement), living as an ex-Patriot in another country, .... I would estimate well over half of the best of the best of my Engineer friends are no longer employed as Engineers in a full time engineering job. They have been effectively chased off to other more profitable and/or stable careers.

Interesting. No one ever got rich by trading time for money, so I can understand why people would seek greener pastures. I can understand how operating a CAD tool or pressing a compile button for someone else's profit gets old after about thirty years of age. I don't think someone who has moved into management or marketing within their same industry has left engineering, nor do I think anyone from engineering who gets bit by the entrepreneurial bug actually leaves engineering. But I digress.

So in your experience there is a lack of demand for STEM graduates in this country. Okay. Could there be some over-aggregation whereby apples are compared to oranges, as opposed to accusing anyone of lying, that could explain a very different testimonial from a different person?

I'll answer that (when you ask it in plain, intelligible English)

 

[protectionist]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

Improving education is key, but is a generational task. Very few 40 year-old unskilled workers are going to be able to "retrain" for work in a high-tech field. Can't hurt to try, but we can't afford to wait a generation or so to fill all the jobs in need of qualified workers right now. Start with the kids in school now, and adapt to the changing needs of a modern economy.

The intention is noble, but difficult to implement across a nation of over 300 million. Completely rebuilding the existing educational infrastructure will require generations of work.

There are certain, forgive the term, "low hanging fruit" we can pick and have an immediate impact. One thing we can do is to remove the stigma of academic success from poverty stricken communities. I am not saying everyone in a poverty stricken community looks down their noses at academic success. I am saying that popular media presents underprivileged youth with very few positive role models.

What I am proposing is that we make science cool again. Let's restart the space program. Let's get people involved. Have you ever heard Neil deGrasse Tyson speak on this subject? We could embolden a small army of underprivileged youth to reach toward science; and within science are found upward ladders of social mobility. Those ladders exist right now, and will multiply if we as a society invest in a new space program. This would require the progressive side of politics to abandon any of the traditional complaints about NASA funding. Songs like "Whitey on the Moon" don't help. I'm not trying to pick a fight over this. I'm just recounting history.
Moondoggle: The Forgotten Opposition to the Apollo Program - Alexis C. Madrigal - The Atlantic
Last time, our space program was a very nationalistic enterprise, and that fact led to more Progressive opposition. I think the space program should remain a nationalistic enterprise, except this time we include all Americans in our nationalistic enterprise.

Perhaps what I am proposing is not "low hanging fruit" at all, but it should be.

No need for any of this poppycock. Quit scamming. Plenty of educated & experienced AMERICAN workers are sitting unemployed, available to be hired.

 

[protectionist]

Well, that's one opinion.

I vote otherwise; to train or re-train the American to do the job.

Better than bringing-in an outsider, while leaving a mouth to feed amongst our own.

We take care of our own, first.

Then, if we can't find any other way to fill the job, then, and only then, do we go to the outside.

How do you propose to do this forced retraining of American citizens? How do you propose to force them to use the training we shoved down their throats? What you you propose we force them to be retrained in? Maybe your job? What do you do for a living? How would you like it if we use your tax dollars to retrain Americans to take your job from you? What are you gonna do to these people when they suck at this new job we forced them to be retrained for? We gonna let them starve this time, or are we gonna just find a 3rd, 4th, 5th etc job for them till we have forced them to retrain in something they like that also pays a living?

We are paying good tax payer dollars to fund kids to among other things learn how to be rap stars. Is that a good way to spend tax payer dollars?

I'm going to have to ask for some substantiation on the spending of tax payer dollars to teach kids to be rap stars. And I hope that substantiation does not include the introduction of hip hop into the local glee club.

As for retraining Americans, I think vocational training has great benefit, but it has to be kept realistic and a lot depends on the individual in question. We must first and foremost acknowledge that not everyone grows up to be an astronaut. That's hard. I like people. I don't like the fact that we must identify the limits people have demonstrated.

In the workplace, and right now I am strictly speaking about people with jobs, it's necessary to identify an employee's limits in order to give a subordinate a set of tasks that the subordinate can actually accomplish and maybe help them grow. What is the point of assigning a subordinate to a task far outside of their ability to accomplish?

The same holds true for retraining the unemployed. Not everyone can be retrained for every field. It's a harsh reality. Does that mean we abandon them to desperation?

So let's examine an extreme, what would be the point of sending an unemployed person to a four year degree program they don't want and have never demonstrated the capacity to handle? That is an extreme. It denies the individual self-determination and over-estimates their capabilities.

As it so happens, while we on this message board are waxing philosophic on the subject, there are organizations dedicated to realistically retraining people.
Vocational Rehabilitation Services for Persons with Disabilities | Jewish Vocational Service of MetroWest New Jersey (JVS)

Consider this: A man has a good job in auto repair. The man is badly injured in an accident and due to the subsequent physical disability, can work but cannot handle any physically strenuous labor. Now, the far-right demands this person be starved to death for the crime of being crippled. The far-left demands he surrender his free will and that the rest of his life be planned for him. There is an alternative, and people already do it.

During the process of physical rehabilitation, the newly disabled man also goes through "vocation rehabilitation" whereby his skills are assessed and he is found not lacking in the brains department. Some training is invested in him, and he finds he likes staying technical. Some more training is invested in him and he gets a part time gig doing some drafting. He likes it. Some more training is invested in him and he becomes a CAD operator (draftsman). He does well and becomes a technician. Notice the state and the charitable organization are no longer involved. Were they necessary? Yes, absolutely. Can the state get out of his life now that his life is back on track? Yes, absolutely.

There is no one solution to re-employ the unemployed. It's a case-by-case basis sort of thing.

The notion that America does not have enough skilled workers to meet the demand for them is scam-job pushed by traitorous employers who only seek to boost their profits with cheap, foreign labor.

 

[Unkotare]

U.S. manufacturing sees shortage of skilled factory workers - The Washington Post

Skilled worker shortage looms for U.S. construction firms | Reuters

Skilled Worker Shortage to Worsen

Report: Economy Will Face Shortage of 5 Million Workers in 2020 - US News

 

[RKMBrown]

...I just wish you marxist socialist types had the guts to try and take my money from my wallet instead of hiding behind government guns. But I do appreciate your calmness in cheerleading for the extreme left.

Yer a funny guy, RK...

Oh, by the way...

My own local County-level Workforce Development Board?

About 2/3 of the Board were either (a) small business owners or (b) managers for larger corporations, last time I looked, 2-3 years ago...

Solid Republicans, mostly, who see the benefit of such programming, and who routinely stand alongside labor-friendly Democrats in connection with this particular program...

A fairly staunch bastion of bipartisanship...

Not exactly your run-of-the-mill Marxist-Socialists...

Yet per your explanation they are using federal grant money taken by force. That would make then RINOS.

But, yes thx for recognizing the humor in so called conservatives using my paycheck to train people to take my job.

 

[RKMBrown]

Yes paths to citizenship are better than temporary employment meant to displace American labor.

When I said I did not know any unemployed engineers I meant unemployed in the larger sense. To elaborate further: I know great Engineers who are now selling houses, filing patents, teaching as a professor, making videos for weddings, practicing law, practicing as a physician, managing people, semi-retired (early retirement), living as an ex-Patriot in another country, .... I would estimate well over half of the best of the best of my Engineer friends are no longer employed as Engineers in a full time engineering job. They have been effectively chased off to other more profitable and/or stable careers.

Interesting. No one ever got rich by trading time for money, so I can understand why people would seek greener pastures. I can understand how operating a CAD tool or pressing a compile button for someone else's profit gets old after about thirty years of age. I don't think someone who has moved into management or marketing within their same industry has left engineering, nor do I think anyone from engineering who gets bit by the entrepreneurial bug actually leaves engineering. But I digress.

So in your experience there is a lack of demand for STEM graduates in this country. Okay. Could there be some over-aggregation whereby apples are compared to oranges, as opposed to accusing anyone of lying, that could explain a very different testimonial from a different person?

The types of Engineers I'm talking about are not CAD tool folks. I'm talking about systems Engineers that wrote operating systems like Windows, OS/2, Linux, AIX, HPux... and wrote the first Java Virtual Machines, and the first Web Browsers, and the first web based application servers, and satellite software, etc.... I'm talking about Electrical Engineers that designed collision avoidance systems, computer systems, military grade hardware, .... I'm talking about industry solution Engineers in finance, insurance, medical,... I'm talking about guys that used to put out serious amounts of code in C, ASM, Java, .. I'm talking about the guys who really did build the internet infrastructure, not just the ones laying the wires and editing web pages.

Managing Engineers is not the same as being an Engineer, except for those who continue to function as an Engineer while managing. I was talking about folks who completely change their track and end up doing nothing but charts, status, sales, and personnel management work. These management postions can benefit from having a tech background, but the better training for them typically includes business training. I ran my own business so I have both and I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference.

Where did I say there was a lack of demand for STEM graduates in this country? Your just making stuff up. My point was most of the jobs are for entry level only, not sure how that flew over your head. Good luck when you want to earn more than entry level and / or when you are past engineering old age.. aka 40, the target's on your back at that point.

 

[Kondor3]

...I just wish you marxist socialist types had the guts to try and take my money from my wallet instead of hiding behind government guns. But I do appreciate your calmness in cheerleading for the extreme left.

Yer a funny guy, RK...

Oh, by the way...

My own local County-level Workforce Development Board?

About 2/3 of the Board were either (a) small business owners or (b) managers for larger corporations, last time I looked, 2-3 years ago...

Solid Republicans, mostly, who see the benefit of such programming, and who routinely stand alongside labor-friendly Democrats in connection with this particular program...

A fairly staunch bastion of bipartisanship...

Not exactly your run-of-the-mill Marxist-Socialists...

Yet per your explanation they are using federal grant money taken by force. That would make then RINOS.

But, yes thx for recognizing the humor in so called conservatives using my paycheck to train people to take my job.

RK...

I'm quickly forming the opinion that you need to invent a Time Machine, to take you back to a time prior to the advent of a Federal Income Tax in this country.

Although I appreciate what you are saying... the 5-year-old within each of us thinks in just those terms, sometimes, about taxes and social programming... the truth of the matter is that your head is back in the 19th, rather than the 21st.

I don't believe that the rest of the country wants to regress quite that far back, old boy.

Let's keep our feet on the ground, shall we?

Let's talk about the here-and-now.

Let's talk about the best ways to revitalize the American labor force, thereby reducing the welfare burden on the taxpaying public, as a related sidebar to the main theme here, yes?

There are better places within this forum to moan and groan about the Feds playing Robin Hood, I think.

 

[Indeependent]

UTTER NONSENSE!! And directed only to those naive enough to fall for the SCAM that we need to retrain Americans, because we don't already have plenty of them on hand to do skilled work. This is the big SCAM JOB that greedy employers push. They PRETEND that there is a labor shortage of skilled workers (a myth obliterated repeatedly by my links in this thread).

There is NOTHING to "wait" for. The workers are here, fully skilled, and ready to work. Only problem is the employers (with the help of the federal govt) have settled into a habit of getting low-wage workers from overseas to keep their costs down.

When there's a labor shortage, wages are up. But they're not. They're down. All the way to the level that the foreigners will work for + cheaper, inferior working conditions, like they're used to in India, China, Mexico, etc.

Nah!
Suddenly every American Accountant, Attorney and Engineer woke up one morning and EVERYTHING was different!
Why, we don't even have Americans who can pump coffee, drive a bus or sweep a floor.
Only the business owners and CEO Lobbyists have the skills required for the 45th century!

NONSENSE!! Try reading the thread, and clicking the links before you come jumping in here talking foolishly. What you're saying, has already been proven wrong many times over, in here.

I was being sarcastic.

 

[Indeependent]

U.S. manufacturing sees shortage of skilled factory workers - The Washington Post

Skilled worker shortage looms for U.S. construction firms | Reuters

Just too funny.
We have millions of residential and commercial properties built by illegals who can't even speak English whilst the corporate scumbags who "hire" them at Home Depot claim we have a Construction Worker shortage.
I guess that means we'll have to bulldoze every structure that's been built since 2004 and start the good old US from scratch.

 

[RKMBrown]

...My income can only be spread around so much...

Yours and mine, both.

...before I just say eff you all and sit back and watch just like all the rest of the welfare proud.

I do not see how this helps us to decide whether it is better to train an American worker, and get him off Welfare, or give a job to a foreigner, instead.

Your assumption continues to be we only have two choices. My answer is neither.

The foreigner might be here on welfare. The American worker might be on 1 dollar a year of welfare. Your broad based pick one of these two bad choices is no different to me than asking me when I stopped beating my wife. The answer is I disagree with your question entirely. The foreigner might be our guest here legally, invited to come here to work. No two foreigners are created equal, every single immigrant is potentially a different discussion.

My statements were to explain to you that if you don't come up with a better solution your gonna loose this tax payer's tax payments.

 

[Kondor3]

...My income can only be spread around so much...

Yours and mine, both.

...before I just say eff you all and sit back and watch just like all the rest of the welfare proud.

I do not see how this helps us to decide whether it is better to train an American worker, and get him off Welfare, or give a job to a foreigner, instead.

Your assumption continues to be we only have two choices. My answer is neither.

The foreigner might be here on welfare. The American worker might be on 1 dollar a year of welfare. Your broad based pick one of these two bad choices is no different to me than asking me when I stopped beating my wife. The answer is I disagree with your question entirely. The foreigner might be our guest here legally, invited to come here to work. No two foreigners are created equal, every single immigrant is potentially a different discussion.

My statements were to explain to you that if you don't come up with a better solution your gonna loose this tax payer's tax payments.

Sigh...

Have fun with the Tax Courts and the District Attorney's Office...

 

[Kondor3]

Your assumption continues to be we only have two choices. My answer is neither. The foreigner might be here on welfare. The American worker might be on 1 dollar a year of welfare. Your broad based pick one of these two bad choices is no different to me than asking me when I stopped beating my wife. The answer is I disagree with your question entirely. The foreigner might be our guest here legally, invited to come here to work. No two foreigners are created equal, every single immigrant is potentially a different discussion...

Yes, all God's Children are different, be they Citizen or Foreigner.

Next slide, please.

In dealing with the macro-level view, we must generalize.

Your unwillingness to generalize tells me all I need to know about the likelihood of reaching a middle-ground with you, in any related discussion.

Your unwillingness to train or re-train an American worker and to let that job fall to a Foreigner also tells me a great deal.

More's the pity.

Fortunately, for those able to take advantage of such re-training programs, large numbers of folks on both sides of the aisle support such initiatives, and, so long as they're in the majority and running things, and you're not, the initiative will continue, and, quite probably, expand.

You can rail against it until the cows come home, from the sidelines, where nobody's paying attention to it, but I wouldn't count on it doing any good.

 

[RKMBrown]

Yer a funny guy, RK...

Oh, by the way...

My own local County-level Workforce Development Board?

About 2/3 of the Board were either (a) small business owners or (b) managers for larger corporations, last time I looked, 2-3 years ago...

Solid Republicans, mostly, who see the benefit of such programming, and who routinely stand alongside labor-friendly Democrats in connection with this particular program...

A fairly staunch bastion of bipartisanship...

Not exactly your run-of-the-mill Marxist-Socialists...

Yet per your explanation they are using federal grant money taken by force. That would make then RINOS.

But, yes thx for recognizing the humor in so called conservatives using my paycheck to train people to take my job.

RK...

I'm quickly forming the opinion that you need to invent a Time Machine, to take you back to a time prior to the advent of a Federal Income Tax in this country.

Although I appreciate what you are saying... the 5-year-old within each of us thinks in just those terms, sometimes, about taxes and social programming... the truth of the matter is that your head is back in the 19th, rather than the 21st.

I don't believe that the rest of the country wants to regress quite that far back, old boy.

Let's keep our feet on the ground, shall we?

Let's talk about the here-and-now.

Let's talk about the best ways to revitalize the American labor force, thereby reducing the welfare burden on the taxpaying public, as a related sidebar to the main theme here, yes?

There are better places within this forum to moan and groan about the Feds playing Robin Hood, I think.

You've never heard of the push to flat and/or sales tax? Which states are the ones moving forward economically right now? Texas does not have an Income tax. How do you think Texas is surviving without it, where states like New York apparently can't live without it? You're the one living in the past with your head buried in the sand, not me. I reject, out of hand, your notions that this can't be changed. The only thing constant in this world is Change.

As to the best way to revitalize the American labor force. That's easy. The best way to revitalize America is two fold. One remove all regulations that are not also imposed against imported goods. Two rip and replace our tax system with sale taxes, where the only exemptions are for the very basic necessities such as for food products, the roof over your head (sans all the luxury items in it), and necessary health care products.

I'm sure I could come up with a third plank, such as bringing home America's soldiers, but I prefer not to digress into that topic in this Thread.

 

[RKMBrown]

Yours and mine, both.


I do not see how this helps us to decide whether it is better to train an American worker, and get him off Welfare, or give a job to a foreigner, instead.

Your assumption continues to be we only have two choices. My answer is neither.

The foreigner might be here on welfare. The American worker might be on 1 dollar a year of welfare. Your broad based pick one of these two bad choices is no different to me than asking me when I stopped beating my wife. The answer is I disagree with your question entirely. The foreigner might be our guest here legally, invited to come here to work. No two foreigners are created equal, every single immigrant is potentially a different discussion.

My statements were to explain to you that if you don't come up with a better solution your gonna loose this tax payer's tax payments.

Sigh...

Have fun with the Tax Courts and the District Attorney's Office...

When I stop earning income the only thing this government's gonna do is beg me to get on the welfare roles.

 

[RKMBrown]

Your assumption continues to be we only have two choices. My answer is neither. The foreigner might be here on welfare. The American worker might be on 1 dollar a year of welfare. Your broad based pick one of these two bad choices is no different to me than asking me when I stopped beating my wife. The answer is I disagree with your question entirely. The foreigner might be our guest here legally, invited to come here to work. No two foreigners are created equal, every single immigrant is potentially a different discussion...

Yes, all God's Children are different, be they Citizen or Foreigner.

Next slide, please.

In dealing with the macro-level view, we must generalize.

Your unwillingness to generalize tells me all I need to know about the likelihood of reaching a middle-ground with you, in any related discussion.

Your unwillingness to train or re-train an American worker and to let that job fall to a Foreigner also tells me a great deal.

More's the pity.

Fortunately, for those able to take advantage of such re-training programs, large numbers of folks on both sides of the aisle support such initiatives, and, so long as they're in the majority and running things, and you're not, the initiative will continue, and, quite probably, expand.

You can rail against it until the cows come home, from the sidelines, where nobody's paying attention to it, but I wouldn't count on it doing any good.

I give charity at church, we have a training program. I don't worship my government, and do not wish to tithe to it as you do.

Can you please provide evidence that your training programs do not include the training of immigrants?