Immigration is Destroying America.

[Zombie_Pundit]

The types of Engineers I'm talking about are not CAD tool folks. I'm talking about systems Engineers that wrote operating systems like Windows, OS/2, Linux, AIX, HPux... and wrote the first Java Virtual Machines, and the first Web Browsers, and the first web based application servers, and satellite software, etc.... I'm talking about Electrical Engineers that designed collision avoidance systems, computer systems, military grade hardware, .... I'm talking about industry solution Engineers in finance, insurance, medical,... I'm talking about guys that used to put out serious amounts of code in C, ASM, Java, .. I'm talking about the guys who really did build the internet infrastructure, not just the ones laying the wires and editing web pages.

Managing Engineers is not the same as being an Engineer, except for those who continue to function as an Engineer while managing. I was talking about folks who completely change their track and end up doing nothing but charts, status, sales, and personnel management work. These management postions can benefit from having a tech background, but the better training for them typically includes business training. I ran my own business so I have both and I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference.

Where did I say there was a lack of demand for STEM graduates in this country? Your just making stuff up. My point was most of the jobs are for entry level only, not sure how that flew over your head. Good luck when you want to earn more than entry level and / or when you are past engineering old age.. aka 40, the target's on your back at that point.

Okay, so your contention is that the demand for engineers wanes as a function of age. That's possible. I think it depends on the job function. I'd rather see someone who doesn't grow in ability get their wage locked to inflation. There is no need to promote for the sake of promotion.

I don't really see how any of that is possible for the types engineers you describe, the systems engineers, the people who "really did build the internet infrastructure".

Does the term "systems engineer" imply "new grad"? Were all the engineers to whom you refer young engineers? Were none of them mid to late career?

I'm not saying some companies are not trying to bring in cheap guest laborers. I think you and I both oppose guest laborer programs, though perhaps for different reasons. I support paths to citizenship.

What I am saying is that not every engineer gets fired at age 40. Many Systems Engineers spend as much of their time managing projects as they do writing specs. Sometimes when engineers get experienced enough, their duties naturally lead them into mentorship positions which become line- or program- management positions. Sometimes engineers sell their start-ups and go off to pursue that film degree their parents thought was a waste of time. People are funny that way.

Could there be some over-aggregation whereby apples are compared to oranges, as opposed to accusing anyone of lying, that could explain a very different testimonial from a different person?

As for immigration, I want American citizens in high-tech jobs. I don't see a point of contention between us on this point, except perhaps how many immigrants we allow into the country to become American citizens. That may be a point of contention.

 

[RKMBrown]

So I'm on vacation a few years back and my parents have judge judy on. There's this guy explaining to the judge the half dozen ways he get's his money to live while remaining at school as an art appreciation major. Guy was a rap singer. Judge admonished him for it.. he was like you guys wanted to give me the money so I take it, ... guy smiles and shrugs showing off his gold caps.


Also for the folks that are not being given free college education and had to take out a loan, if you make sure to get a degree in something that keeps you in welfare, well that's ok cause we'll forgive the loans:

President Obama's Student Loan Forgiveness Program in 2014

Judge Judy... C'mon RKMBrown, that's like forming an opinion on policy based on something you saw on the Jerry Springer show.

Furthermore, "www.forgetstudentloandebt.com" is not a website published by the US Government. Here are the whois stats:
Forgetstudentloandebt.com WHOIS Domain Lookup
Says Panama... so... Somebody in Panama is hosting a webpage for somebody who really doesn't like student loan debt and would like to forget it?

In any case, we're getting off topic. The topic is immigration. I like the idea of granting citizenship to smart enterprising people in STEM fields, and other skilled labor, and inviting them to help us bring about another American Century in this 21st Century.

So you are saying you can't get federal and state aid for studying arts?

So you are saying Obama's loan forgiveness program does not exist?

Or are you just attacking anecdotal references in general?

You are being disingenuous. First you lie about me stating that we don't need STEM graduates. Now you make up some bullshit attack at one of the millions of links to Obama's loan forgiveness programs that amounts to yet one more way democrat voters are stealing money from taxpayers.

 

[RKMBrown]

The types of Engineers I'm talking about are not CAD tool folks. I'm talking about systems Engineers that wrote operating systems like Windows, OS/2, Linux, AIX, HPux... and wrote the first Java Virtual Machines, and the first Web Browsers, and the first web based application servers, and satellite software, etc.... I'm talking about Electrical Engineers that designed collision avoidance systems, computer systems, military grade hardware, .... I'm talking about industry solution Engineers in finance, insurance, medical,... I'm talking about guys that used to put out serious amounts of code in C, ASM, Java, .. I'm talking about the guys who really did build the internet infrastructure, not just the ones laying the wires and editing web pages.

Managing Engineers is not the same as being an Engineer, except for those who continue to function as an Engineer while managing. I was talking about folks who completely change their track and end up doing nothing but charts, status, sales, and personnel management work. These management postions can benefit from having a tech background, but the better training for them typically includes business training. I ran my own business so I have both and I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference.

Where did I say there was a lack of demand for STEM graduates in this country? Your just making stuff up. My point was most of the jobs are for entry level only, not sure how that flew over your head. Good luck when you want to earn more than entry level and / or when you are past engineering old age.. aka 40, the target's on your back at that point.

Okay, so your contention is that the demand for engineers wanes as a function of age. That's possible. I think it depends on the job function. I'd rather see someone who doesn't grow in ability get their wage locked to inflation. There is no need to promote for the sake of promotion.

I don't really see how any of that is possible for the types engineers you describe, the systems engineers, the people who "really did build the internet infrastructure".

Does the term "systems engineer" imply "new grad"? Were all the engineers to whom you refer young engineers? Were none of them mid to late career?

I'm not saying some companies are not trying to bring in cheap guest laborers. I think you and I both oppose guest laborer programs, though perhaps for different reasons. I support paths to citizenship.

What I am saying is that not every engineer gets fired at age 40. Many Systems Engineers spend as much of their time managing projects as they do writing specs. Sometimes when engineers get experienced enough, their duties naturally lead them into mentorship positions which become line- or program- management positions. Sometimes engineers sell their start-ups and go off to pursue that film degree their parents thought was a waste of time. People are funny that way.

Could there be some over-aggregation whereby apples are compared to oranges, as opposed to accusing anyone of lying, that could explain a very different testimonial from a different person?

As for immigration, I want American citizens in high-tech jobs. I don't see a point of contention between us on this point, except perhaps how many immigrants we allow into the country to become American citizens. That may be a point of contention.

No. The demand does not wane with age. The demand wanes with availability of cheaper labor. The result of being an older more experienced Engineer is you get paid more. The folks hiring, promoting, and using Engineers know a good / great engineer is a necessary element to a successful project. The bean counters do not. The accounting teams and Executives get their bonuses based on short term profit. If you use expensive engineers to help build a profitable project the executive gets a bonus for it. If the executive then lays off the expensive engineers and replaces them with entry level engineers, h1b visas and/or moves the maintenance work to china/india he gets another bonus for reducing payroll expenses. That may hurt in the long run based on poor maintenance or no new products, but the Exec. will be long gone by then.

Thus, unless you are running the business (in management) Experienced Engineers end up having to find something else to do like marketing, management, contracting, ...

Additionally, our Government has allowed these off-shoring corporations to buy up their local competition creating massive monopolies in certain segments. These off-shoring corporations wash the new companies keeping the employees intact for a couple years... then rinse repeat the process.

I also have no problem with limited immigration for people seeking to become Americans. My issues are two fold. One my government pushing h1b visa and other guest worker programs as if we were a third world country that does not have high tech workers and we need these people to come in to teach us tech... yeah right. Two my government using my money to train cheap entry level replacements to swap out experienced tech workers.

 

[protectionist]

U.S. manufacturing sees shortage of skilled factory workers - The Washington Post

Skilled worker shortage looms for U.S. construction firms | Reuters

Skilled Worker Shortage to Worsen

Report: Economy Will Face Shortage of 5 Million Workers in 2020 - US News

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...-agency-cites-job-shortage-tech-industry.html

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...ment-undermines-argument-doubling-immigration

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...b-increase-would-take-toll-college-grads.html

The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage - Michael S. Teitelbaum - The Atlantic

A compelling body of research is now available, from many leading academic researchers and from respected research organizations such as the National Bureau of Economic Research, the RAND Corporation, and the Urban Institute. No one has been able to find any evidence indicating current widespread labor market shortages or hiring difficulties in science and engineering occupations that require bachelors degrees or higher, although some are forecasting high growth in occupations that require post-high school training but not a bachelors degree. All have concluded that U.S. higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are S&E job openings—the only disagreement is whether it is 100 percent or 200 percent more. Were there to be a genuine shortage at present, there would be evidence of employers raising wage offers to attract the scientists and engineers they want. But the evidence points in the other direction: Most studies report that real wages in many—but not all—science and engineering occupations have been flat or slow-growing, and unemployment as high or higher than in many comparably-skilled occupations.

 

[RKMBrown]

u.s. Manufacturing sees shortage of skilled factory workers - the washington post

skilled worker shortage looms for u.s. Construction firms | reuters

skilled worker shortage to worsen

report: Economy will face shortage of 5 million workers in 2020 - us news

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...-agency-cites-job-shortage-tech-industry.html

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...ment-undermines-argument-doubling-immigration

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...b-increase-would-take-toll-college-grads.html

the myth of the science and engineering shortage - michael s. Teitelbaum - the atlantic

a compelling body of research is now available, from many leading academic researchers and from respected research organizations such as the national bureau of economic research, the rand corporation, and the urban institute. No one has been able to find any evidence indicating current widespread labor market shortages or hiring difficulties in science and engineering occupations that require bachelors degrees or higher, although some are forecasting high growth in occupations that require post-high school training but not a bachelors degree. All have concluded that u.s. Higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are s&e job openings—the only disagreement is whether it is 100 percent or 200 percent more. Were there to be a genuine shortage at present, there would be evidence of employers raising wage offers to attract the scientists and engineers they want. But the evidence points in the other direction: Most studies report that real wages in many—but not all—science and engineering occupations have been flat or slow-growing, and unemployment as high or higher than in many comparably-skilled occupations.

qft

 

[protectionist]

My issues are two fold. One my government pushing h1b visa and other guest worker programs as if we were a third world country that does not have high tech workers and we need these people to come in to teach us tech... yeah right. Two my government using my money to train cheap entry level replacements to swap out experienced tech workers.

So why then have you been arguing against reducing this unneeded hi tech immigration, which does just what you said ?

 

[protectionist]

u.s. Manufacturing sees shortage of skilled factory workers - the washington post

skilled worker shortage looms for u.s. Construction firms | reuters

skilled worker shortage to worsen

report: Economy will face shortage of 5 million workers in 2020 - us news

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...-agency-cites-job-shortage-tech-industry.html

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...ment-undermines-argument-doubling-immigration

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...b-increase-would-take-toll-college-grads.html

the myth of the science and engineering shortage - michael s. Teitelbaum - the atlantic

a compelling body of research is now available, from many leading academic researchers and from respected research organizations such as the national bureau of economic research, the rand corporation, and the urban institute. No one has been able to find any evidence indicating current widespread labor market shortages or hiring difficulties in science and engineering occupations that require bachelors degrees or higher, although some are forecasting high growth in occupations that require post-high school training but not a bachelors degree. All have concluded that u.s. Higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are s&e job openings—the only disagreement is whether it is 100 percent or 200 percent more. Were there to be a genuine shortage at present, there would be evidence of employers raising wage offers to attract the scientists and engineers they want. But the evidence points in the other direction: Most studies report that real wages in many—but not all—science and engineering occupations have been flat or slow-growing, and unemployment as high or higher than in many comparably-skilled occupations.

qft

Unintelligible. What's the matter ? You getting arthitis in your fingers ? Forgot how to use a keyboard ?

 

[RKMBrown]

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...-agency-cites-job-shortage-tech-industry.html

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...ment-undermines-argument-doubling-immigration

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...b-increase-would-take-toll-college-grads.html

the myth of the science and engineering shortage - michael s. Teitelbaum - the atlantic

a compelling body of research is now available, from many leading academic researchers and from respected research organizations such as the national bureau of economic research, the rand corporation, and the urban institute. No one has been able to find any evidence indicating current widespread labor market shortages or hiring difficulties in science and engineering occupations that require bachelors degrees or higher, although some are forecasting high growth in occupations that require post-high school training but not a bachelors degree. All have concluded that u.s. Higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are s&e job openings—the only disagreement is whether it is 100 percent or 200 percent more. Were there to be a genuine shortage at present, there would be evidence of employers raising wage offers to attract the scientists and engineers they want. But the evidence points in the other direction: Most studies report that real wages in many—but not all—science and engineering occupations have been flat or slow-growing, and unemployment as high or higher than in many comparably-skilled occupations.

qft

Unintelligible. What's the matter ? You getting arthitis in your fingers ? Forgot how to use a keyboard ?

QFT/qft stands for Quoted for truth. It means I agree with you so much that I decided to copy it. Basically it means... I could not have said it better myself. I know sorry to shock ya

 

[RKMBrown]

My issues are two fold. One my government pushing h1b visa and other guest worker programs as if we were a third world country that does not have high tech workers and we need these people to come in to teach us tech... yeah right. Two my government using my money to train cheap entry level replacements to swap out experienced tech workers.

So why then have you been arguing against reducing this unneeded hi tech immigration, which does just what you said ?

You've been confused by my stance on this matter from the start. Why change that now?

I never argued against reducing h1b visas. I never argued against reducing illegal immigration.

What I argued against was blaming our guests for being invited and working here. The blame is not on legal immigrants, the blame is on congress and our presidents over the last few decades.

 

[protectionist]

My issues are two fold. One my government pushing h1b visa and other guest worker programs as if we were a third world country that does not have high tech workers and we need these people to come in to teach us tech... yeah right. Two my government using my money to train cheap entry level replacements to swap out experienced tech workers.

So why then have you been arguing against reducing this unneeded hi tech immigration, which does just what you said ?

You've been confused by my stance on this matter from the start. Why change that now?

I never argued against reducing h1b visas. I never argued against reducing illegal immigration.

What I argued against was blaming our guests for being invited and working here. The blame is not on legal immigrants, the blame is on congress and our presidents over the last few decades.

You can argue about who should or should be "blamed" all day long. I don't think necessarily about "blame". I simply see harms occuring, thereby see a problem, and propose solutions.

 

[RKMBrown]

So why then have you been arguing against reducing this unneeded hi tech immigration, which does just what you said ?

You've been confused by my stance on this matter from the start. Why change that now?

I never argued against reducing h1b visas. I never argued against reducing illegal immigration.

What I argued against was blaming our guests for being invited and working here. The blame is not on legal immigrants, the blame is on congress and our presidents over the last few decades.

You can argue about who should or should be "blamed" all day long. I don't think necessarily about "blame". I simply see harms occuring, thereby see a problem, and propose solutions.

Without an understanding of the root cause of a harm, there can be no solution. Your earlier statements stated that legal immigration is the root cause of the problem. Thus you blamed immigrants. Then you said we are overcrowded by 90% which is also not true. Thus you claimed and/or implied there can be no solution other than to implement some type of ban on pregnancies and immigration and / or start killing people.... that's where the conversation went south. If you proposed a solution I missed it. All I saw were lists of harms, nary a solution to be found.

 

[protectionist]

U.S. manufacturing sees shortage of skilled factory workers - The Washington Post

Skilled worker shortage looms for U.S. construction firms | Reuters

Skilled Worker Shortage to Worsen

Report: Economy Will Face Shortage of 5 Million Workers in 2020 - US News

These "reports" ( I gag when I call them that) are the biggest JOKE I've seen in years. What poppycock. The Society for Human Resources Management is a lobby shill for employers using cheap, foreign labor. The Washington Post article is ludicrous. It so happens that the machine shop technology it talks about, is the same field that I happen to have worked in as a skilled worker (QC Inspector & QC Engineer) in for 20 years (1979-1999). And the supposed "new" CNC machines are NOT NEW at all. They are the same machines that I went around, machine to machine, inspecting parts from, DECADES AGO, in literally dozens of different companies, both in the San Jose, CA (Silicon Valley) area, and here in Florida. During the 1980s, every machine shop I worked in had numerous CNC machines. Your link article is a laughingstock.

 

[protectionist]

You've been confused by my stance on this matter from the start. Why change that now?

I never argued against reducing h1b visas. I never argued against reducing illegal immigration.

What I argued against was blaming our guests for being invited and working here. The blame is not on legal immigrants, the blame is on congress and our presidents over the last few decades.

You can argue about who should or should be "blamed" all day long. I don't think necessarily about "blame". I simply see harms occuring, thereby see a problem, and propose solutions.

Without an understanding of the root cause of a harm, there can be no solution. Your earlier statements stated that legal immigration is the root cause of the problem. Thus you blamed immigrants. Then you said we are overcrowded by 90% which is also not true. Thus you claimed and/or implied there can be no solution other than to implement some type of ban on pregnancies and immigration and / or start killing people.... that's where the conversation went south. If you proposed a solution I missed it. All I saw were lists of harms, nary a solution to be found.

HA HA!! I said we should start "killing people" ??? Wow!! Is YOUR MIND going south ?

 

[RKMBrown]

You can argue about who should or should be "blamed" all day long. I don't think necessarily about "blame". I simply see harms occuring, thereby see a problem, and propose solutions.

Without an understanding of the root cause of a harm, there can be no solution. Your earlier statements stated that legal immigration is the root cause of the problem. Thus you blamed immigrants. Then you said we are overcrowded by 90% which is also not true. Thus you claimed and/or implied there can be no solution other than to implement some type of ban on pregnancies and immigration and / or start killing people.... that's where the conversation went south. If you proposed a solution I missed it. All I saw were lists of harms, nary a solution to be found.

HA HA!! I said we should start "killing people" ??? Wow!! Is YOUR MIND going south ?

How do you propose to reduce our population by 90%?

 

[protectionist]

Also, you haven't seen my solutions ? That's funny. They were certainly plain and visible enough.

1. Mass deportation of illegal aliens.

2. Pressure upon Mexico, with military action if necessary.

3.. Elimination of legal immigration,including work visas, with 2 exceptions (immigrants bringing in skills high in demand - this would be rare, and immigrants bringing in capital to open business & create jobs FOR AMERICANS)

I've probably stated this in at least 10 different posts in this thread. Just happened to have missed every one of them, huh ?

And you never saw THIS ? >> http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-...nvasion-of-the-united-states-1950-2012-a.html

 

[Unkotare]

America's Skilled Trades Dilemma: Shortages Loom As Most-In-Demand Group Of Workers Ages - Forbes

U.S. Tech Worker Shortage Looms, Study Warns - InformationWeek


High Skilled Worker Shortage - Business Insider


file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/LPS/My%20Documents/Downloads/Immigration_in_America_and_the_Growing_Shortage_of_High-Skilled_Workers.pdf

Immigration in America & The Growing Shortage of High-Skilled Workers ? Kleiner Perkins Caufield Byers

 

[protectionist]

Without an understanding of the root cause of a harm, there can be no solution. Your earlier statements stated that legal immigration is the root cause of the problem. Thus you blamed immigrants. Then you said we are overcrowded by 90% which is also not true. Thus you claimed and/or implied there can be no solution other than to implement some type of ban on pregnancies and immigration and / or start killing people.... that's where the conversation went south. If you proposed a solution I missed it. All I saw were lists of harms, nary a solution to be found.

HA HA!! I said we should start "killing people" ??? Wow!! Is YOUR MIND going south ?

How do you propose to reduce our population by 90%?

Do you think that I had proposed to do that ? If so, where ? When ?

 

[protectionist]

America's Skilled Trades Dilemma: Shortages Loom As Most-In-Demand Group Of Workers Ages - Forbes

U.S. Tech Worker Shortage Looms, Study Warns - InformationWeek


High Skilled Worker Shortage - Business Insider


file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/LPS/My%20Documents/Downloads/Immigration_in_America_and_the_Growing_Shortage_of_High-Skilled_Workers.pdf

Immigration in America & The Growing Shortage of High-Skilled Workers ? Kleiner Perkins Caufield Byers

You can cease listing shill links now. Post # 1532 exposed what a farce your lists are.
Your credibility rating now is somewhere in the Mariana Trench (lowest elevation on earth)

 

[RKMBrown]

Also, you haven't seen my solutions ? That's funny. They were certainly plain and visible enough.

1. Mass deportation of illegal aliens.

2. Pressure upon Mexico, with military action if necessary.

3.. Elimination of legal immigration,including work visas, with 2 exceptions (immigrants bringing in skills high in demand - this would be rare, and immigrants bringing in capital to open business & create jobs FOR AMERICANS)

I've probably stated this in at least 10 different posts in this thread. Just happened to have missed every one of them, huh ?

And you never saw THIS ? >> http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-...nvasion-of-the-united-states-1950-2012-a.html

Not sure how you missed my question. How does removing the 10million or so illegals get you to 10% of our population size? Math not your strong suit? I'll give you a hint 310 million people - 10 million people = 300 million people. You want us to get to 30 million. You stated in this thread that we can't sustain more than 30 million people.

I'll ask the question again. How do you propose to get us from 310 million people to 30 million people?

 

[RKMBrown]

HA HA!! I said we should start "killing people" ??? Wow!! Is YOUR MIND going south ?

How do you propose to reduce our population by 90%?

Do you think that I had proposed to do that ? If so, where ? When ?

You did it in this thread when you were claiming to be a geographer. This after you claimed to be an economist.