Zone1 Intelligent people have doubts RE Jesus

[forkintheroad7]

And what's your world? 2, 10, 25 people? Out of what, 8.5 billion people? That's an awful small sampling to make mass judgements on.

Uh... in case u haven't noticed, there is the possibility on the internet of reaching tens of thousands if not millions

You can kind of get an idea what a poster's IQ is by what he or she says... (after reading several posts). There are thousands of people or posts here and a lot of what people say is incredibly ILLOGICAL

Then there are those who are just OBVIOUSLY

UN- informed / misinformed / totally ignorant on just .. you name the topic(s)..

 

[dudmuck]

Yes, a Book about Jesus says there is Jesus
You have faith that it is true

But Jesus was a relatively recent Biblical figure. He lived in a time and place where Romans documented much of what was happening. There are no Roman accounts supporting the claims of Jesus in the Bible

to elaborate.. non-biblical works that are considered sources for the historicity of Jesus include two mentions in Antiquities of the Jews by Jewish historian Josephus (dated circa 93–94 CE) and a mention in Annals by Roman historian Tacitus (circa 116 CE).

There are two non-christian sources of history of Jesus: Roman and Jewish.

 

[forkintheroad7]

to elaborate.. non-biblical works that are considered sources for the historicity of Jesus include two mentions in Antiquities of the Jews by Jewish historian Josephus (dated circa 93–94 CE) and a mention in Annals by Roman historian Tacitus (circa 116 CE).

There are two non-christian sources of history of Jesus: Roman and Jewish.

That guy just makes up stuff

very dishonest

 

[LeroyDumonde]

to elaborate.. non-biblical works that are considered sources for the historicity of Jesus include two mentions in Antiquities of the Jews by Jewish historian Josephus (dated circa 93–94 CE) and a mention in Annals by Roman historian Tacitus (circa 116 CE).

There are two non-christian sources of history of Jesus: Roman and Jewish.

Neither of these writers were alive when Jesus allegedly lived. At best they just prove that belief in Jesus existed at the time they wrote their works. The major reference to Jesus in Josephus is a known forgery. The minor reference to Jesus had nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible. It was someone else named Jesus. The name Jesus would have been as common as the name Joshua is today.

 

[mamooth]

Tacitus too? Pliny the Younger? Suetonius? Forgeries all, right?

Pliny the Younger reports around 110 AD that Christians exist. He gives no evidence for Jesus.

Tacitus reports on Christians in 116AD. He repeats the Christian stories about Jesus.

Suetonius says someone name Chrestus was causing trouble, himself, while in Rome during the reign of Claudius. Wrong time frame, wrong continent, and it's missing any mention that the guy died.

So, no contempory reports of Jesus from them.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Pliny the Younger reports around 110 AD that Christians exist. He gives no evidence for Jesus.

Tacitus reports on Christians in 116AD. He repeats the Christian stories about Jesus.

Suetonius says someone name Chrestus was causing trouble, himself, while in Rome during the reign of Claudius. Wrong time frame, wrong continent, and it's missing any mention that the guy died.

So, no contempory reports of Jesus from them.

Right including Josephus we only have 4 early Roman authors who mentioned Christians, followers of Christ.

And what of his disciples? Why did they refuse to denunciation and chose instead death? If the Global Warming Cult was offered the same choice, which do you think they would take?

 

[mamooth]

Right including Josephus we only have 4 early Roman authors who mentioned Christians, followers of Christ.

And?

If anyone denied that Christians existed, you'd have a point.

But since nobody has, you're just attacking a strawman.

And what of his disciples? Why did they refuse to denunciation and chose instead death?

You've just proven that islam is the one true religion, well done.

the Global Warming Cult was offered the same choice, which do you think they would take?

A fine deflection, and some fine projection.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

And?

If anyone denied that Christians existed, you'd have a point.

But since nobody has, you're just attacking a strawman.


You've just proven that islam is the one true religion, well done.


A fine deflection, and some fine projection.

I keep thinking you're only pretending to be dense, but now I have my doubts.

James The first of the 12 disciples to be martyred, James was killed by King Herod in Jerusalem with a sword. According to another account, James was thrown from the Temple's southeast pinnacle after refusing to renounce his faith, and then beaten to death when he survived the fall.

Philip was put to death by a Roman Proconsul after his wife converted to Christianity due to his preaching.

Matthew was stabbed to death in Africa.

Bartholomew There are multiple accounts of Bartholomew's death, including being beaten and drowned, crucified upside down, or decapitated after being flayed alive. However, none of these accounts have historical evidence to support them.

Simon the Zealot According to tradition, Simon was martyred by being sawn in half.

Luke Some believe that Luke was a martyr who was hanged from an olive tree

Can you imagine the disciple of Global Warming or the Easter Bunny suffering the same fate? Deny CO2 drives the climate or get killed in some horrible way

With the conviction and faith of Akiva, the disciples would rather die than deny Jesus. People don't do that for a fairy tale

 

[LeroyDumonde]

I keep thinking you're only pretending to be dense, but now I have my doubts.

James The first of the 12 disciples to be martyred, James was killed by King Herod in Jerusalem with a sword. According to another account, James was thrown from the Temple's southeast pinnacle after refusing to renounce his faith, and then beaten to death when he survived the fall.

Philip was put to death by a Roman Proconsul after his wife converted to Christianity due to his preaching.

Matthew was stabbed to death in Africa.

Bartholomew There are multiple accounts of Bartholomew's death, including being beaten and drowned, crucified upside down, or decapitated after being flayed alive. However, none of these accounts have historical evidence to support them.

Simon the Zealot According to tradition, Simon was martyred by being sawn in half.

Luke Some believe that Luke was a martyr who was hanged from an olive tree

The problem is that none of those deaths are confirmed by people who lived at the time or are completely contradictory.

 

[forkintheroad7]

Neither of these writers were alive when Jesus allegedly lived.

so you don't read books on Abraham Lincoln by people who didn't live when he did?

 

[LeroyDumonde]

so you don't read books on Abraham Lincoln by people who didn't live when he did?

Abraham Lincoln has evidence about him from eyewitnesses. If the book isn't based on eyewitnesses it's useless. In contrast there are no eyewitness reports about Jesus.

 

[mamooth]

I keep thinking you're only pretending to be dense, but now I have my doubts.

Everyone has no doubts about you, rest assured.

Islam has lots and lots of martyrs.

Therefore, by your logic, that means Islam is the one true religion, and Mohommed is the one true prophet.

Your logic is, shall we say, lacking.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Abraham Lincoln has evidence about him from eyewitnesses. If the book isn't based on eyewitnesses it's useless. In contrast there are no eyewitness reports about Jesus.

Really? none of the Apostles were there? Pilate?

That's amazing! How do you know George Washington was a real person?

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Really? none of the Apostles were there?

None of the books in the Bible were written by the alleged Apostles. Paul only claims to have met the Apostles Peter and James (Gal 1:19). Later in Galatians (2:9) he also mentions a John, so whoever this John was it was not an Apostle. Incidentally he never claims to have met Jesus. No writings by Peter, James, or John survive. So apparently some time after 50 AD Paul met some people who were involved in the Jerusalem Church and had a big theological argument with Peter. We don't know what they claimed about anything and we don't know how any of them died. All we can surmise is that Peter believed in circumcision and Paul didn't (assuming Paul is being honest about the disagreement), and that Paul thought that James was "the lord's" brother (presumably Jesus). BTW, we don't even know if this James was a blood relative because the word brother could refer to any man who was a fellow Christian.

I should at this point mention Josephus, because he mentions someone named James, the brother of Jesus who was called Christ. This passage is used by Christians as evidence for both the biblical James and Jesus. However, the actual quote will demonstrate that this is not the case. The passage occurs In The Antiquities of the Jews Book XX Chapter 9.

The Antiquities of the Jews/Book XX - Wikisource, the free online library

"1. AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees,[23] who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent.[24] Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest."

So as we can see Ananus had James killed on trumped up charges. King Agrippa punished Ananus for what he did by taking away his high priesthood and giving it to James' brother Jesus. Jesus and James are sons of Damneus, not Joseph/Mary. Jesus survived James which is the opposite of biblical James and Jesus. Furthermore the word christ means "anointed" (more specifically anointed with oil). Who gets anointed with oil? Kings and high priests. When Christians point to this passage as evidence for Jesus they either never read it themselves, or hope that you don't.

Pilate?

Pilate never wrote about Jesus.

That's amazing! How do you know George Washington was a real person?

Because of contemporary accounts of him.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

None of the books in the Bible were written by the alleged Apostles. Paul only claims to have met the Apostles Peter and James (Gal 1:19). Later in Galatians (2:9) he also mentions a John, so whoever this John was it was not an Apostle. Incidentally he never claims to have met Jesus. No writings by Peter, James, or John survive. So apparently some time after 50 AD Paul met some people who were involved in the Jerusalem Church and had a big theological argument with Peter. We don't know what they claimed about anything and we don't know how any of them died. All we can surmise is that Peter believed in circumcision and Paul didn't (assuming Paul is being honest about the disagreement), and that Paul thought that James was "the lord's" brother (presumably Jesus). BTW, we don't even know if this James was a blood relative because the word brother could refer to any man who was a fellow Christian.

I should at this point mention Josephus, because he mentions someone named James, the brother of Jesus who was called Christ. This passage is used by Christians as evidence for both the biblical James and Jesus. However, the actual quote will demonstrate that this is not the case. The passage occurs In The Antiquities of the Jews Book XX Chapter 9.

The Antiquities of the Jews/Book XX - Wikisource, the free online library

"1. AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees,[23] who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent.[24] Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest."

So as we can see Ananus had James killed on trumped up charges. King Agrippa punished Ananus for what he did by taking away his high priesthood and giving it to James' brother Jesus. Jesus and James are sons of Damneus, not Joseph/Mary. Jesus survived James which is the opposite of biblical James and Jesus. Furthermore the word christ means "anointed" (more specifically anointed with oil). Who gets anointed with oil? Kings and high priests. When Christians point to this passage as evidence for Jesus they either never read it themselves, or hope that you don't.



Pilate never wrote about Jesus.


Because of contemporary accounts of him.

My point was How do you know Pilate was a real person?

Many more writing by the Apostles were found at Nag Hammadi

 

[LeroyDumonde]

My point was How do you know Pilate was a real person?

There are stones, coins, and other inscriptions dated to his reign which bear his name.

Many more writing by the Apostles were found at Nag Hammadi

Which were written in the 4th century and are almost all Gnostic texts. Many of these texts were copies of older documents of course, but being in the Nag Hammdi Library doesn't make them early 1st century documents.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

There are stones, coins, and other inscriptions dated to his reign which bear his name.

Which were written in the 4th century and are almost all Gnostic texts. Many of these texts were copies of older documents of course, but being in the Nag Hammdi Library doesn't make them early 1st century documents.

Jesus Christ you’re denser than mamooth!!

Nah Hammad were COPIES of earlier texts or are you claiming the Gospels of Thomas, James, Mary, et.al. were fabricated in the 4th Century? Hard to imagine a fiction writer facing a death penalty for being found with those works making it all up

Go read Gospel of Thomas

In the James Gospel he mentions that he had send another set of teachings he received from Jesus and was now sending these

 

[ding]

There are stones, coins, and other inscriptions dated to his reign which bear his name.

Which were written in the 4th century and are almost all Gnostic texts. Many of these texts were copies of older documents of course, but being in the Nag Hammdi Library doesn't make them early 1st century documents.

Compared to any other event in antiquity the account of Christ is unparalleled in the number of texts, the timing of the texts and the accuracy of the copies. I mean it's not really even close.

 

[mamooth]

Jesus Christ you’re denser than mamooth!!

Let's keep hammering on what you keep running from.

If having martyrs proves a religion is the OneTrueReligion, as you claim, then you've proven that Islam is the OneTrueReligion. After all, Islam has more martyrs than any other religion.

So why are you pushing Jesus, when your own definition says Mohammed is the OneTrueProphet?

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Jesus Christ you’re denser than mamooth!!

Nah Hammad were COPIES of earlier texts or are you claiming the Gospels of Thomas, James, Mary, et.al. were fabricated in the 4th Century?

I literally said in my post that most were copies of earlier texts.

Hard to imagine a fiction writer facing a death penalty for being found with those works making it all up

Who said that happened?

Go read Gospel of Thomas

I read it years ago.

In the James Gospel he mentions that he had send another set of teachings he received from Jesus and was now sending these

And why do you believe that it was written by one of the biblical James?