Zone1 Is God a sadist?

[expat_panama]

"In hearing you will hear, but not understand, and seeing you will see, but not perceive."

huh, I missed that one. Can u tell me exactly where in the Bible that appears so I can see the context?

 

[hobelim]

huh, I missed that one. Can u tell me exactly where in the Bible that appears so I can see the context?

See Matthew 13:14 which is quoting Isaiah 6:9

 

[expat_panama]

...Do you really believe that it was a healing of sight and not perception just because it isn't specified? ...

My personal beliefs change w/ all I'm learning, I try to make it a point to believe only what's in the Bible and I take my own preferences w/ a grain of salt. This is why my conclusion is (so far) the passage does not say if sight was perception and not normal sight. In fact, a normal reading would lead me to believe that normal sight was restored.

...We? How many of you are there?...

Somehow I'd been under the impression that you and I was together on this but your latest post seems (to me) to suggest that you consider us adversaries. If that's the case we might want to set this aside, as much as I like learning what's in the Bible, even more I want the Bible to bring unity, not discord.

 

[expat_panama]

See Matthew 13:14 which is quoting Isaiah 6:9

Thanks, my take on that passage was that Jesus was consulting w/ the disciples explaining why he spoke in parables. His quoting of Isaiah (my take) was to explain teaching in parable and not to explain how the blind man received his vision. I understand u see it differently.

 

[hobelim]

My personal beliefs change w/ all I'm learning, I try to make it a point to believe only what's in the Bible and I take my own preferences w/ a grain of salt. This is why my conclusion is (so far) the passage does not say if sight was perception and not normal sight. In fact, a normal reading would lead me to believe that normal sight was restored.

Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. “Watch out!” He cautioned them. “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod.” So they began to discuss with one another the fact that they had no bread. Aware of their conversation, Jesus asked them, “How can you fail to see that I was not speaking about bread? Do you still not understand? Are you that dense? ‘Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear?’ Mark 8:14-18


When they crossed to the other side, the disciples forgot to take bread. “Watch out!” Jesus told them. “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” They discussed this among themselves and concluded, “It is because we did not bring any bread.” Aware of their conversation, Jesus said, “You of little faith, why are you debating among yourselves about having no bread? Do you still not understand? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? How do you not understand that I was not telling you about bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Then they understood (saw) that He was not telling them to beware of the leaven used in bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Matthew 16:7-12

(BTW this shows that the feeding of the multitude was not about eating magical fish sandwiches)

"Till now I have been using figures of speech" John 16:25

Bread is a metaphor for teaching. Bread from heaven, teaching from God, became the flesh of Jesus , a new metaphor for Divine instruction. Unless you eat that flesh you can have no life in you

"Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that God utters." (Jesus H. Christ!)

Is there something that you still don't understand, or see?

 

[hobelim]

What does this thread have to do with politics or socialism?

Religious indoctrination is the same as political indoctrination which amounts to brainwashing, what the ancients called the magical arts or sorcery. When I told you that your communist delusions are not any better than religious delusions after your rant blaming religious people, who are mostly non violent, for all of the violence and discord in the world you are the one who cried, "capitalist propaganda" a sure sign that your mind was broken by trained personnel, brainwashed.

Do you want to debate socialism and capitalism?

No, I think I'd rather be drawn and quartered. But thanks anyway!

 

[expat_panama]

Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. “Watch out!” He cautioned them. “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod.” So they began to discuss with one another the fact that they had no bread. Aware of their conversation, Jesus asked them, “How can you fail to see that I was not speaking about bread? Do you still not understand? Are you that dense? ‘Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear?’ Mark 8:14-18


When they crossed to the other side, the disciples forgot to take bread. “Watch out!” Jesus told them. “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” They discussed this among themselves and concluded, “It is because we did not bring any bread.” Aware of their conversation, Jesus said, “You of little faith, why are you debating among yourselves about having no bread? Do you still not understand? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? How do you not understand that I was not telling you about bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Then they understood (saw) that He was not telling them to beware of the leaven used in bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Matthew 16:7-12

(BTW this shows that the feeding of the multitude was not about eating magical fish sandwiches)

"Till now I have been using figures of speech" John 16:25

Bread is a metaphor for teaching. Bread from heaven, teaching from God, became the flesh of Jesus , a new metaphor for Divine instruction. Unless you eat that flesh you can have no life in you

"Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that God utters." (Jesus H. Christ!)

Is there something that you still don't understand, or see?

lol! It's all fine.

My take is that somethings Jesus talked plain & other times he spoke figuratively & it's our job to understand which is which. We're cool here. You & I have come mostly to the same conclusions on these things but this is an interesting universe, u & I are distinct, and there are some points where we come out to different conclusions.

Imho this does not make one of us better than the other, we're just different and that in itself is good.

 

[hobelim]

lol! It's all fine.

My take is that somethings Jesus talked plain & other times he spoke figuratively & it's our job to understand which is which. We're cool here. You & I have come mostly to the same conclusions on these things but this is an interesting universe, u & I are distinct, and there are some points where we come out to different conclusions.

I agree, but according to Matthew 13:34 Jesus never spoke publicly except in parables, and according to John 16:25 Jesus was using figures of speech until this point after he said all of that nutty stuff about raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, healing the crippled, being bread from heaven, eat my flesh, etc., which irrefutably shows that the actual meaning of all of those subjects are hidden and not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words that he used.

imho, there is no other conclusion to make, no other rational and intelligent conclusion that is.

Imho this does not make one of us better than the other, we're just different and that in itself is good.

I agree. FYI, I am coming from a place where I really wouldn't mind being proven wrong by you or anyone else as long as Jesus is proven right. I hope you feel the same. If so, everyone will benefit, you and I and all watchers out there; believer and atheist, Jew and Gentile, sinner and saint, rich and poor, cop and criminal, etc. When the waters of contention are stirred the truth is brought out.

And I heard that someone once said, "And the truth will set you free", but that's just what I heard.

 

[hobelim]

imho, there is no other conclusion to make, no other rational and intelligent conclusion that is.

When reading about Jesus doing things that contradict well known facts about reality you must remember to include in your speculations that Jesus lived during a time of brutal Roman occupation, when there was no such thing as freedom of expression, in a theocracy under a compulsory observance of a literal application of Mosaic law (under penalty of death) and people were fined, stoned, banned from society, flogged, imprisoned, enslaved, and killed daily for trivial reasons so he spoke in code, like prophets do, which went whoosh over their superstitious heads like people still do whenever "the authorities" see them as sinners or criminal enemies of the state.

Am I telling you something that you don't already know? Apparently, it still works like a charm.

 

[expat_panama]

...according to Matthew 13:34 Jesus never spoke publicly except in parables, and according to John 16:25 Jesus was using figures of speech until this point after he said all of that nutty stuff about raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, healing the crippled, being bread from heaven, eat my flesh, etc., which irrefutably shows that the actual meaning of all of those subjects are hidden and not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words that he used....

Interesting, that's not what I saw at all. Maybe our problem is that we need to be saying more stuff like "What I saw in the Bible was "[exact quote]" and what that meant to me was [insert conclusions].

That's what I'll be working on.

 

[Clyde 154]

God is indifferent to the suffering of man. Not sure why people want to worship an entity that acts exactly like he doesn't exist.

God has no respect of person...........suffering and death are as natural to man as living. Everything in this natural world has an experiation date, everything physical decays. The miraclous is not the normal.....its the exception, everytime that God uses the supernatural its to confirm a revelation as coming from the God of Creation.

God answers prayers.........though the use of the natural laws that He put in place to regulate the natural, sometimes the answer to a prayer is a "NO"......God never promised to give us our desires and wants, but to give us what we need. If you get sick..............pray, pray that God will deliver you into the hands of the most competent and qualified medical practictioners avilable, if you pray for a miracle for some self induced illness or an illness induced by your genes.........you will die for the want of a miracle. As the Apostle told "Simon" the witch.....someone that practiced sorcery......when Simon attempted to purchase the miraculous gifts of the spirit that the Apostles could deliver by the laying on of their hand........you nave neither lot nor part in this matter. (Act 8:9-23).

The miraculous was used to help establish the infant Christian church.....because there was no scripture to study when the church was new and the Holy Spirit of God guided the Apostles into all truth as promised to them by Jesus before He died.

When the church was established and the words of the Apostles were recorded and their words became scripture to be used as Doctrine for the new church (Example: Peter knew his death would soon be at hand and declared that he would record his experiences for future generations -- 2 Peter 1:10-21)........the age of miracles came to an end, just as the Apostle Paul declared they would when that which is "perfect" (in Greek, complete or whole) comes that which is in part shall be done away with (the gifts of the Spirit introduced by the Apostles of Christ in establishing the infant church).......all that remains today as gifts of the spirit are "Faith, Hope and Charity/Love" (1 Cor. 13) When the last Apostle of Christ died.........the age of miracles ceased........as the Scriptures today provide Doctrine, Truth, Instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16-17), and everything to make the man of God "perfect"......not physically perfect by perfectly provided with everything required for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3)

Why worship that which is invisible? Its much like attempting to explain the wind, you can't see it but you know its there by the effects produced, its "potential is quantifiable/measurable.......the same for the invisible atom, its the potential/effect that is quantifiable. The same for God. Read be enlighted, why worship that which you can't see? Just like the wind......you know God is there and the evidence exists by the things that He has made.......man is without excuse when he/she denies God. (Romans 1:20-27). If not.......please explain by using the Scientitic Method........where did the energy come from to create the BIG BANG? How does star dust evolve into man.......2 gases by majority (Hydrogen and Hellium), if left alone over a supposed time frame of billions of years......magically evolved into mankind? Really?

 

[Red Front]

God has no respect of person...........suffering and death are as natural to man as living. Everything in this natural world has an experiation date, everything physical decays. The miraclous is not the normal.....its the exception, everytime that God uses the supernatural its to confirm a revelation as coming from the God of Creation.

God answers prayers.........though the use of the natural laws that He put in place to regulate the natural, sometimes the answer to a prayer is a "NO"......God never promised to give us our desires and wants, but to give us what we need. If you get sick..............pray, pray that God will deliver you into the hands of the most competent and qualified medical practictioners avilable, if you pray for a miracle for some self induced illness or an illness induced by your genes.........you will die for the want of a miracle. As the Apostle told "Simon" the witch.....someone that practiced sorcery......when Simon attempted to purchase the miraculous gifts of the spirit that the Apostles could deliver by the laying on of their hand........you nave neither lot nor part in this matter. (Act 8:9-23).

The miraculous was used to help establish the infant Christian church.....because there was no scripture to study when the church was new and the Holy Spirit of God guided the Apostles into all truth as promised to them by Jesus before He died.

When the church was established and the words of the Apostles were recorded and their words became scripture to be used as Doctrine for the new church (Example: Peter knew his death would soon be at hand and declared that he would record his experiences for future generations -- 2 Peter 1:10-21)........the age of miracles came to an end, just as the Apostle Paul declared they would when that which is "perfect" (in Greek, complete or whole) comes that which is in part shall be done away with (the gifts of the Spirit introduced by the Apostles of Christ in establishing the infant church).......all that remains today as gifts of the spirit are "Faith, Hope and Charity/Love" (1 Cor. 13) When the last Apostle of Christ died.........the age of miracles ceased........as the Scriptures today provide Doctrine, Truth, Instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16-17), and everything to make the man of God "perfect"......not physically perfect by perfectly provided with everything required for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3)

Why worship that which is invisible? Its much like attempting to explain the wind, you can't see it but you know its there by the effects produced, its "potential is quantifiable/measurable.......the same for the invisible atom, its the potential/effect that is quantifiable. The same for God. Read be enlighted, why worship that which you can't see? Just like the wind......you know God is there and the evidence exists by the things that He has made.......man is without excuse when he/she denies God. (Romans 1:20-27). If not.......please explain by using the Scientitic Method........where did the energy come from to create the BIG BANG? How does star dust evolve into man.......2 gases by majority (Hydrogen and Hellium), if left alone over a supposed time frame of billions of years......magically evolved into mankind? Really?

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You make a lot of unnecessary assumptions in your post. First, you assume that if there is a deity, it will be a person or individual conscious entity. Why? You also assume that the Jewish and Christian scriptures are divinely inspired, again why? More, you assert that the natural world somehow implicitly points to the existence of your Christian god without presenting any evidence for that.

How can you genuinly, without being forced, commit yourself to a divine being who threatens you with eternal torment and torture in hell? Your dedication to such a deity isn't really a free choice or based on love but on fear of being eternally damned by this divine entity.

 

[james bond]

It's more like the non-believers are masochists.

 

[Red Front]

It's more like the non-believers are masochists.

Why do you believe that we are "masochists"?

 

[james bond]

Why do you believe that we are "masochists"?

It's simple. In the afterlife, they'll all be punished . They chose not to be saved.

 

[Red Front]

It's simple. In the afterlife, they'll all be punished . They chose not to be saved.

We didn't choose "not to be saved", we just don't believe in your ridiculous religious mythology, nor can we love a sadistic god that tortures people in hell for all eternity. You don't love your god, you're just terrorized by him.

 

[james bond]

We didn't choose "not to be saved", we just don't believe in your ridiculous religious mythology, nor can we love a sadistic god that tortures people in hell for all eternity. You don't love your god, you're just terrorized by him.

You definitely chose as you are a sinner. Why do we have the satan smiley ? Take your punishment after death.

 

[Red Front]

You definitely chose as you are a sinner. Why do we have the satan smiley ? Take your punishment after death.

You're just a delusional, religious robot, believing a bunch of mythological nonsense.

 

[james bond]

You're just a delusional, religious robot, believing a bunch of mythological nonsense.

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Until you realize where YOU are after death. I'd love to wave hello to you, but I won't be able to see you. However, you'll be able to see me and the believers in heaven and wave hello to us (or will it be SCREAM hello to us?).

 

[hobelim]

Interesting, that's not what I saw at all. Maybe our problem is that we need to be saying more stuff like "What I saw in the Bible was "[exact quote]" and what that meant to me was [insert conclusions].

That's what I'll be working on.

Sure. Except the "our problem is that we" part. Maybe you should wonder why it is that you often speak in the plural. To me it means that you think of yourself as royalty or are unwittingly speaking for a crowd of unknown origin that exposes its defiling influence on your mind willy nilly. Either way the prognosis is not very good. See Mark 5:9. Try to understand that I am neither criticizing nor condemning you. Try not to speak in the plural as if your very life, your existence, depended on it.

Be open. Be an individual that reflects the image and likeness of a holy God. Be one as God is one.

If you find that too difficult when having a discussion about the possible meaning of the stories attributed to Jesus, this is what you should be working on. This really is a matter of life and death.