Is homeschooling a good solution?

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

That's a generalization. There are some good public schools.

Actually it's not the schools that are better, it's the parents that are better. In upscale neighborhoods the parents are educated professionals who are motivated for their children to learn. Most of what children learn is taught by their parents. Schools simply put a rubber stamp on it.

That's simply not true. There are plenty of good parents in the zip codes with struggling schools. The problems are many and not easily boiled down to bumper stickers. Schools are underfunded, racially segregated (Which still happens, see Lincoln parish in Louisiana that was forced to desegregate in 2015), or the cost of living is high enough that both parents work multiple jobs.

I think though we can both agree that having a failing public school is simply unacceptable. I think a lot of the rancor stems from the idea of how you fix it.

The sad fact is public schools will continue to struggle as long as teachers' unions continue to have a stranglehold on the purse strings, regardless of whether the federal government is involved or not.

I'm not sure. I think that without Teacher's unions a lot of qualified folks would leave the field and leave us all the poorer for it. I've got friends in Wisconsin and right after Walker instituted his changes school boards in a lot of districts went pretty draconian on their teachers. In response, many left the profession. A good teacher can make more money doing other things and if pushed, they will. A bad teacher is more likely to stick around because they CAN'T do something else. And good luck firing them when your school is already 5-10 teachers short meeting the need for teachers in their school.

If we wan to abolish things like tenure or the teachers unions, we will have to be willing to pay more just to draw in folks to teach.

You say that, but it's not true. The only ones who would leave the profession are the ones we would want to leave. We have entirely too many teachers who are teachers simply b/c it is a comparatively easy degree to obtain and is a pretty sweet gig with decent pay and sweet hours. Shouldn't we strive for more? Shouldn't we strive to hire the teachers who WANT to teach? And the pay is more than adequate in most areas. In fact for 2012=13 the average starting pay in the US was $36K a year, which no you aren't going to get rich earning that, but it isn't chump change either, especially considering the hours etc etc.

2012-2013 Average Starting Teacher Salaries by State

What is the average starting salary in the US for someone with a Master's degree?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

All I know is, the homeschooled students I have known were perhaps better mannered than the average kid but perfectly able to interact with peers. They were much better educated than their peers in public school. One-on-one instruction usually aces instruction in a large group. Most of these kids have siblings, neighborhood friends, and many are active in sports. At least none of the ones I've known were strange or socially lacking. I know that is anecdotal, but I am guessing your aversion to homeschooling is also based on one or two kids you have encountered somewhere along the way.

Also speaking anecdotally, the parents that do it right (Organized fieldtrips, sports, organized play dates/outings) raise children who are totally normal socially. They also raise children who are outstanding academically.

The parents who do it terribly usually give up and dump their kids back into public schools that by law have to take them in. That makes it hard to realistically track and compare test scores as failed homeschooled children end up in the public school testing pool. As I said though, if you can do it and do it well, you should. If you can't, don't. I work with my kids in the summer with a pretty rigid schedule on math, reading and writing. The personal cost to me is that it tanks my productivity in the summer to do it and the kids hate it. There's no way I could keep that up in the school year and work full time. Moral of the story: It wouldn't work for me full year.

I wish we had some way to track how homeschooled children are doing, once they've been taken out of public school, but there is no money in the budget or time in the day for school personnel to track and follow these kids. I've seen the 'dark side' of homeschooling, as well, when parents pulled kids out of school after the school reported abuse or neglect, or because the kid didn't feel like going and the parents didn't feel like arguing about it, or because the parent couldn't get out of bed to get the kid on the bus in the morning. I've also met parents so ignorant they can barely write their name, claiming they are "homeschooling." That can't be stopped, for some reason, and it is unfair to our kids. I'm quite sure that back in the 80's, there were rules that you needed a bachelor's degree in order to homeschool. That was overkill, but no follow up whatsoever is really a problem for some kids who aren't getting any education at all.

Lol. I think the percentage of public school kids who aren't getting an education is a LOT higher.

No, you didn't, or you would not have said what you did.

Awesome, you can read minds.

My students think I can.

 

[koshergrl]

That's one of the challenges you have to live with if you want to be a farmer. Schooling is another.

That's only acceptable if you're fine with creating a permanent serf class. Kids should have access to quality food and quality education regardless of location in the USA. Accepting anything less is accepting that America doesn't need to be exceptional and that "good enough" will do.

Public schools aren't *quality*.

That's a generalization. There are some good public schools.

Actually it's not the schools that are better, it's the parents that are better. In upscale neighborhoods the parents are educated professionals who are motivated for their children to learn. Most of what children learn is taught by their parents. Schools simply put a rubber stamp on it.

I have yet to meet many parents that can handle high school algebra!

I can. So can all teachers handle high school algebra?

 

[bripat9643]

How do you explain inner city schools that fail 60% of their students? Why shouldn't parents of children in these schools have the option of sending their kids elsewhere? The don't have the option of moving to some tony suburb where the real estate prices are in the stratosphere.

And you think the problem is the education system... Do you think they would do better with homeschooling...

The education system isn't a magic wand to solve everything... resources have to spent there... There is great examples internationally of proper investment in socially deprived area and the results achieved.

Then explain why these same kids do much better when they get a voucher and go to a private school?

They don't! Many studies have proven that there is no significant difference in student performance.

Bullshit propaganda studies, you mean.

Not quite. I have a master's degree in this topic.

How about you? GED? HS diploma?

You have a vested interest in propagating the government school monopoly, so anything you claim can be automatically discounted. You can't use yourself as some kind of authority.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

".. the overall quality of education in the state has improved slightly over the past few years, according to a pair of new reports.
"Education Week’s 2016 Quality Counts report, which measures on overall educational quality, had Wisconsin’s score increasing from 78.9 in 2015 (a C+) to 79.8 (a B-). The state ranked 11th out of the 50 states and the District of Columbia, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
"Wisconsin also tied for first with Minnesota among Midwestern states."

"While Laning’s statement seemed to suggest that Walker has left the schools all but penniless and unable to function normally, that’s hardly the case.
"Wisconsin ranked 22nd, and slightly above the national average, in per-pupil spending, according to the Education Week report. And that amount of money was seemingly enough to provide quality instruction for most students.
“On academic achievement, the state ranked above the nation in most areas,” the Journal Sentinel observed, based on the Education Week report.
"Wisconsin also improved its score and remained tied for third in the nation in the K-12 graduation rate, according to PoltiFact Wisconsin.
"The state has a graduation rate of 88.6 percent in 2013-14, which is apparently the last school year measured by federal officials. In 2012-13 that figure was 88.0 percent."

Ouch.

The truth stings lying progressive moonbats.

Report shows Wisconsin schools doing more with less | EAGnews.org

Wisconsin’s Act 10 revisited: Budget crisis averted, but teaching shortage looms

As I said, fewer teachers available as the teaching environment worsens. There's countless articles on this. Walker's policy drove away teachers and continues to do so.

"In many cases, districts have instituted salary freezes, changed health insurance plans, and created merit pay programs"

Oh, the horror.

Ok, if tomorrow your boss comes in and says that for forseeable future there will be no cost of living adjustments and your healthcare costs are going up, what would you do if you could easily move to a better paying position? Stay or leave? That's what's happening in Wisconsin right now. Any teacher who can leave for something better is leaving. Why stay if the working conditions have worsened?

Most teachers can't, or won't , leave the field. Either because they would be totally incompetent to be in another field, OR they accept the trade offs of salary versus lifestyle.

How about telling us about your employment so we can insult you/

 

[koshergrl]

Actually it's not the schools that are better, it's the parents that are better. In upscale neighborhoods the parents are educated professionals who are motivated for their children to learn. Most of what children learn is taught by their parents. Schools simply put a rubber stamp on it.

That's simply not true. There are plenty of good parents in the zip codes with struggling schools. The problems are many and not easily boiled down to bumper stickers. Schools are underfunded, racially segregated (Which still happens, see Lincoln parish in Louisiana that was forced to desegregate in 2015), or the cost of living is high enough that both parents work multiple jobs.

I think though we can both agree that having a failing public school is simply unacceptable. I think a lot of the rancor stems from the idea of how you fix it.

The sad fact is public schools will continue to struggle as long as teachers' unions continue to have a stranglehold on the purse strings, regardless of whether the federal government is involved or not.

I'm not sure. I think that without Teacher's unions a lot of qualified folks would leave the field and leave us all the poorer for it. I've got friends in Wisconsin and right after Walker instituted his changes school boards in a lot of districts went pretty draconian on their teachers. In response, many left the profession. A good teacher can make more money doing other things and if pushed, they will. A bad teacher is more likely to stick around because they CAN'T do something else. And good luck firing them when your school is already 5-10 teachers short meeting the need for teachers in their school.

If we wan to abolish things like tenure or the teachers unions, we will have to be willing to pay more just to draw in folks to teach.

You say that, but it's not true. The only ones who would leave the profession are the ones we would want to leave. We have entirely too many teachers who are teachers simply b/c it is a comparatively easy degree to obtain and is a pretty sweet gig with decent pay and sweet hours. Shouldn't we strive for more? Shouldn't we strive to hire the teachers who WANT to teach? And the pay is more than adequate in most areas. In fact for 2012=13 the average starting pay in the US was $36K a year, which no you aren't going to get rich earning that, but it isn't chump change either, especially considering the hours etc etc.

2012-2013 Average Starting Teacher Salaries by State

What is the average starting salary in the US for someone with a Master's degree?

Teachers don't all have master's. Especially when they start.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

And you think the problem is the education system... Do you think they would do better with homeschooling...

The education system isn't a magic wand to solve everything... resources have to spent there... There is great examples internationally of proper investment in socially deprived area and the results achieved.

Then explain why these same kids do much better when they get a voucher and go to a private school?

They don't! Many studies have proven that there is no significant difference in student performance.

Bullshit propaganda studies, you mean.

Not quite. I have a master's degree in this topic.

How about you? GED? HS diploma?

You have a vested interest in propagating the government school monopoly, so anything you claim can be automatically discounted. You can't use yourself as some kind of authority.

I have done no such thing. I simply disagree with all of the false information that is being used to denigrate my profession. Perhaps you can link to where I said anything of the sort.

My own grandchild is being home schooled.

 

[koshergrl]

And you think the problem is the education system... Do you think they would do better with homeschooling...

The education system isn't a magic wand to solve everything... resources have to spent there... There is great examples internationally of proper investment in socially deprived area and the results achieved.

Then explain why these same kids do much better when they get a voucher and go to a private school?

They don't! Many studies have proven that there is no significant difference in student performance.

Bullshit propaganda studies, you mean.

Not quite. I have a master's degree in this topic.

How about you? GED? HS diploma?

You have a vested interest in propagating the government school monopoly, so anything you claim can be automatically discounted. You can't use yourself as some kind of authority.

"I'm a state paid teacher, so you must accept my statement that I deserve more money and that I'm smarter than everybody..." typical statist bs.

 

[koshergrl]

Then explain why these same kids do much better when they get a voucher and go to a private school?

They don't! Many studies have proven that there is no significant difference in student performance.

Bullshit propaganda studies, you mean.

Not quite. I have a master's degree in this topic.

How about you? GED? HS diploma?

You have a vested interest in propagating the government school monopoly, so anything you claim can be automatically discounted. You can't use yourself as some kind of authority.

I have done no such thing. I simply disagree with all of the false information that is being used to denigrate my profession. Perhaps you can link to where I said anything of the sort.

My own grandchild is being home schooled.

You haven't proven ANYTHING false.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

That's simply not true. There are plenty of good parents in the zip codes with struggling schools. The problems are many and not easily boiled down to bumper stickers. Schools are underfunded, racially segregated (Which still happens, see Lincoln parish in Louisiana that was forced to desegregate in 2015), or the cost of living is high enough that both parents work multiple jobs.

I think though we can both agree that having a failing public school is simply unacceptable. I think a lot of the rancor stems from the idea of how you fix it.

The sad fact is public schools will continue to struggle as long as teachers' unions continue to have a stranglehold on the purse strings, regardless of whether the federal government is involved or not.

I'm not sure. I think that without Teacher's unions a lot of qualified folks would leave the field and leave us all the poorer for it. I've got friends in Wisconsin and right after Walker instituted his changes school boards in a lot of districts went pretty draconian on their teachers. In response, many left the profession. A good teacher can make more money doing other things and if pushed, they will. A bad teacher is more likely to stick around because they CAN'T do something else. And good luck firing them when your school is already 5-10 teachers short meeting the need for teachers in their school.

If we wan to abolish things like tenure or the teachers unions, we will have to be willing to pay more just to draw in folks to teach.

You say that, but it's not true. The only ones who would leave the profession are the ones we would want to leave. We have entirely too many teachers who are teachers simply b/c it is a comparatively easy degree to obtain and is a pretty sweet gig with decent pay and sweet hours. Shouldn't we strive for more? Shouldn't we strive to hire the teachers who WANT to teach? And the pay is more than adequate in most areas. In fact for 2012=13 the average starting pay in the US was $36K a year, which no you aren't going to get rich earning that, but it isn't chump change either, especially considering the hours etc etc.

2012-2013 Average Starting Teacher Salaries by State

What is the average starting salary in the US for someone with a Master's degree?

Teachers don't all have master's. Especially when they start.

Some do. You didn't answer the question. Please try again.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

They don't! Many studies have proven that there is no significant difference in student performance.

Bullshit propaganda studies, you mean.

Not quite. I have a master's degree in this topic.

How about you? GED? HS diploma?

You have a vested interest in propagating the government school monopoly, so anything you claim can be automatically discounted. You can't use yourself as some kind of authority.

I have done no such thing. I simply disagree with all of the false information that is being used to denigrate my profession. Perhaps you can link to where I said anything of the sort.

My own grandchild is being home schooled.

You haven't proven ANYTHING false.

Only a complete disregard for anything that has been posted by myself and others on this thread could lead you to believe that.

Why do you hate teachers so much that you are forced to lie about them? That is the question you should be addressing.

 

[koshergrl]

Also speaking anecdotally, the parents that do it right (Organized fieldtrips, sports, organized play dates/outings) raise children who are totally normal socially. They also raise children who are outstanding academically.

The parents who do it terribly usually give up and dump their kids back into public schools that by law have to take them in. That makes it hard to realistically track and compare test scores as failed homeschooled children end up in the public school testing pool. As I said though, if you can do it and do it well, you should. If you can't, don't. I work with my kids in the summer with a pretty rigid schedule on math, reading and writing. The personal cost to me is that it tanks my productivity in the summer to do it and the kids hate it. There's no way I could keep that up in the school year and work full time. Moral of the story: It wouldn't work for me full year.

I wish we had some way to track how homeschooled children are doing, once they've been taken out of public school, but there is no money in the budget or time in the day for school personnel to track and follow these kids. I've seen the 'dark side' of homeschooling, as well, when parents pulled kids out of school after the school reported abuse or neglect, or because the kid didn't feel like going and the parents didn't feel like arguing about it, or because the parent couldn't get out of bed to get the kid on the bus in the morning. I've also met parents so ignorant they can barely write their name, claiming they are "homeschooling." That can't be stopped, for some reason, and it is unfair to our kids. I'm quite sure that back in the 80's, there were rules that you needed a bachelor's degree in order to homeschool. That was overkill, but no follow up whatsoever is really a problem for some kids who aren't getting any education at all.

Lol. I think the percentage of public school kids who aren't getting an education is a LOT higher.

No, you didn't, or you would not have said what you did.

Awesome, you can read minds.

My students think I can.

Don't let it go to your head. Kids are famously gullible and foolish in general. And I think you're confusing your ability to manipulate the children you teach with superpowers.

 

[koshergrl]

Bullshit propaganda studies, you mean.

Not quite. I have a master's degree in this topic.

How about you? GED? HS diploma?

You have a vested interest in propagating the government school monopoly, so anything you claim can be automatically discounted. You can't use yourself as some kind of authority.

I have done no such thing. I simply disagree with all of the false information that is being used to denigrate my profession. Perhaps you can link to where I said anything of the sort.

My own grandchild is being home schooled.

You haven't proven ANYTHING false.

Only a complete disregard for anything that has been posted by myself and others on this thread could lead you to believe that.

Why do you hate teachers so much that you are forced to lie about them? That is the question you should be addressing.

You still haven't disproved a single thing, and now you're lying. Which is why I hate teachers in the public s hool system. You're intellectually lazy and dishonest....and you think it's cute.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

".. the overall quality of education in the state has improved slightly over the past few years, according to a pair of new reports.
"Education Week’s 2016 Quality Counts report, which measures on overall educational quality, had Wisconsin’s score increasing from 78.9 in 2015 (a C+) to 79.8 (a B-). The state ranked 11th out of the 50 states and the District of Columbia, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
"Wisconsin also tied for first with Minnesota among Midwestern states."

"While Laning’s statement seemed to suggest that Walker has left the schools all but penniless and unable to function normally, that’s hardly the case.
"Wisconsin ranked 22nd, and slightly above the national average, in per-pupil spending, according to the Education Week report. And that amount of money was seemingly enough to provide quality instruction for most students.
“On academic achievement, the state ranked above the nation in most areas,” the Journal Sentinel observed, based on the Education Week report.
"Wisconsin also improved its score and remained tied for third in the nation in the K-12 graduation rate, according to PoltiFact Wisconsin.
"The state has a graduation rate of 88.6 percent in 2013-14, which is apparently the last school year measured by federal officials. In 2012-13 that figure was 88.0 percent."

Ouch.

The truth stings lying progressive moonbats.

Report shows Wisconsin schools doing more with less | EAGnews.org

Is Donald Trump right about what Gov. Scott Walker did to Wisconsin schools?

Wisconsin is falling in terms of student to teacher ratios as the article above points out. That's due to budget cuts and teacher shortages.

And many of those budget shortcomings are due to teachers unions EVERY time a schools receives $5 in new funding there are the teachers right there, wanting $4 of that applied to teachers' salaries.

Really? What "new funding"?

We had a 1% raise for the first time in a decade last year. This year we got 2%. We have not had any new textbooks since 2011. My laptop is a dinosaur.

Remind me again how good we have it?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Not quite. I have a master's degree in this topic.

How about you? GED? HS diploma?

You have a vested interest in propagating the government school monopoly, so anything you claim can be automatically discounted. You can't use yourself as some kind of authority.

I have done no such thing. I simply disagree with all of the false information that is being used to denigrate my profession. Perhaps you can link to where I said anything of the sort.

My own grandchild is being home schooled.

You haven't proven ANYTHING false.

Only a complete disregard for anything that has been posted by myself and others on this thread could lead you to believe that.

Why do you hate teachers so much that you are forced to lie about them? That is the question you should be addressing.

You still haven't disproved a single thing, and now you're lying. Which is why I hate teachers in the public s hool system. You're intellectually lazy and dishonest....and you think it's cute.

Post anything I have said that is dishonest. What am I lying about? Put up or shut up!

 

[koshergrl]

You have a vested interest in propagating the government school monopoly, so anything you claim can be automatically discounted. You can't use yourself as some kind of authority.

I have done no such thing. I simply disagree with all of the false information that is being used to denigrate my profession. Perhaps you can link to where I said anything of the sort.

My own grandchild is being home schooled.

You haven't proven ANYTHING false.

Only a complete disregard for anything that has been posted by myself and others on this thread could lead you to believe that.

Why do you hate teachers so much that you are forced to lie about them? That is the question you should be addressing.

You still haven't disproved a single thing, and now you're lying. Which is why I hate teachers in the public s hool system. You're intellectually lazy and dishonest....and you think it's cute.

Post anything I ahve said that is dishonest. What am I lying about? Put up or shut up!

You lied when you said I lied. And you lied when you said you exposed any lies. You put up or shut up, I supported my statements. I always do.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Is Donald Trump right about what Gov. Scott Walker did to Wisconsin schools?

Wisconsin is falling in terms of student to teacher ratios as the article above points out. That's due to budget cuts and teacher shortages.

And many of those budget shortcomings are due to teachers unions EVERY time a schools receives $5 in new funding there are the teachers right there, wanting $4 of that applied to teachers' salaries.

you want your kids taught but don't want to pay teachers?

there is limitless money for corporate welfare....

and unnecessary military equipment that even the military doesn't want ....

and agricultural subsidies....

and payment for Michele Bachmann's family farm

and her husband's pretend pray away the gay practice....

but "teachers unions" are the problem?

A) where did I say I don't want to pay teachers?

B) Corporate welfare, LOL give me a break

C) I believe there is much waste in defense spending, that can and should be cut. Hell, I'd do away with the Air Force in it's entirety if it were up to me

D) I'm against paying farmers to not grow a crop, its stupid.

E) See D

Oh, I guess you just liberally jumped to a conclusion not supported by facts there eh?

no.....if you jump to criticizing teachers unions, you clearly want to divest teachers of their bargaining power and want to screw them.

hence my comment....by which I stand.

Teachers don't want to bargain, they want to bludgeon. Have you EVER , for example, seen a teacher's union say " well maybe we should make it easier to fire incompetent teachers?" I'll answer for you, no you have not.

And yes, you certainly tried to pigeonhole me, and failed and are incapable of admitting you were wrong. Which is completely typical of an ideologue.

Have you ever seen what a teacher's union says when the school board votes not to give them a raise? The union says, "OK", because there is literally NOTHING they can do about it.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I have done no such thing. I simply disagree with all of the false information that is being used to denigrate my profession. Perhaps you can link to where I said anything of the sort.

My own grandchild is being home schooled.

You haven't proven ANYTHING false.

Only a complete disregard for anything that has been posted by myself and others on this thread could lead you to believe that.

Why do you hate teachers so much that you are forced to lie about them? That is the question you should be addressing.

You still haven't disproved a single thing, and now you're lying. Which is why I hate teachers in the public s hool system. You're intellectually lazy and dishonest....and you think it's cute.

Post anything I have said that is dishonest. What am I lying about? Put up or shut up!

You lied when you said I lied. And you lied when you said you exposed any lies. You put up or shut up, I supported my statements. I always do.

Wow! Such intellectual brilliance. I am in awe!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

See, that we agree on. If you make life worse for teachers, the really good ones will move on. And after the conditions you've described how many of your top employees remain? How many of those that do remain are as productive as they were before? When you make the work environment bad you may see short term monetary gains due to salary cuts, etc, but long term you've destroyed your personnel base. Anyone who is quality leaves, anyone that remains is either incompetent or burnt out and less productive. I've seen this first hand myself.

The answer to that, of course, is to make the environment positive for well performing teachers and negative for poorly performing ones, something teachers' unions fight.

what is "well performing"

what is "poorly performing".

not all classes are equal.

if you get a class of honors students, their numbers aren't going to change....thus no positive performance eval.

if you get a special ed class their numbers aren't going to move much off the dial....

so no positive performance eval.

There are some criteria by which a teacher can be evaluated. Clearly, class composition is a factor.

what criteria?

Does the teacher have a lesson plan ready when class starts? Does he/she know the material?
Does the teacher have all class work graded and back to the students on time?
Does the teacher consistently miss class?
Does the teacher have proper answers for questions asked during class?
Does the teacher bring a political agenda into the classroom?

I'm sure you can think of others.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: Do you think teacher compensation should be merit based or not?

Wow! Nobody told me it was amateur hour!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

What happens when the home schooler doesn't know the subject matter?..

You think all teachers are experts in all matters?

At least someone has certified that they should know all of the subject matter. I took tests in my subject areas, including school administration.