Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[Kat3eWhit]

What races are involved? (one racial group over any other racial group)

 

[docmauser1]

iran may or may not wish to develop a nuclear weapon. that would be in violation of international law. on the other hand , israel has some 125 or 130 nuclear weapons now and also in violation of the same international law

And what might that international law be?

 

[RoccoR]

antique4xpu, et al,

I thought the "International Law" in question was governed by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

Article IX

3. This Treaty shall enter into force after its ratification by the States, the Governments of which are designated Depositaries of the Treaty, and forty other States signatory to this Treaty and the deposit of their instruments of ratification. For the purposes of this Treaty, a nuclear-weapon State is one which has manufactured and exploded a nuclear weapon or other nuclear explosive device prior to 1 January 1967.

Article 12 Consent to be bound by a treaty expressed by signature

1. The consent of a State to be bound by a treaty is expressed by the signature of its representative when:

(a) the treaty provides that signature shall have that effect;

(b) it is otherwise established that the negotiating States were agreed that signature should have that effect; or

(c) the intention of the State to give that effect to the signature appears from the full powers of its representative or was expressed during the negotiation.

SOURCE: Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties Done at Vienna on 23 May 1969

odd how many will ignore historical facts and substitute them with the rants of rush and glenn beck

iran may or may not wish to develop a nuclear weapon. that would be in violation of international law.

on the other hand , israel has some 125 or 130 nuclear weapons now and also in violation of the same international law

(OBSERVATION)

• IRAN (ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF): Is a signatory to the NPT:
  Page 34 of NPT
  Address: Permanent Mission of the Islamic Republic of Iran to the United Nations
  622 Third Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10017
  Telephone: (212) 687-2020​

• ISRAEL (STATE OF): Is NOT a signatory to the NPT

(QUESTION)

Is the STATE of ISRAEL, which is not a party to the NPT, subject to the same requirements as the ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of IRAN, which is a party to the NPT?

how can the us claim to be a fair power broker in the middle east?

(COMMENT)

All states, especially the US, operated in their own best interest. Fairness and international politics rarely have an intercept point.

perhaps no one remembers that the nation of israel was founded on acts of terrorism , i remind you that menachem begin was wanted for terrorist crimes against the british. can you not see the similarity of the king david hotel massacre by the jews and acts or terrorism committed by hezbollah ?

(OBSERVATION)

Article Seven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.​

SOURCE: The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement

(COMMENT)

I have stated several times that neither side has clean hands. But some hands are a bit more dirty than others.

"Izz al-Din al-Qissam was killed by British Police in Palestine on November 20, 1935; after a decade (plus) of anti-Jewish/Zionist and anti-Mandate terrorism operations. In 1930 al-Qassam formed the Palestinian Black Hand after the 1929 Palestine Western Wall Uprising riot.

Arguments suggest that the Israelis started the (alleged) ethnic cleansing "before the war." Yet the first engagement was Hebron (1929) and 1929 Safed riots (1929); not excluding the Palestinian namesake today recognizes Izz ad-Din al-Qassam as well as Haj Amin Al-Husseini (the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem).

But even before then, one of the major incidents that triggered regimentation of Jewish Defense Forces was the inflammatory anti-Zionist rhetoric of Amin al-Husseini which instigated the April 1920, uprising in the Old City (Nebi Musa riots) that caused 50,000 Arabs to attack Jews. It was after these attacks that the Haganah (1920) emerged as a defense force. The Irgun (1931) did not emerge until the Black Hand of al-Qassam began operations.

Yes, eight decades ago, both side employed terrorism. One side evolved beyond that tactic, while the other side still endorses it today.

In this argument, it must be remembered that the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) attempted to bring forth an Islamic State through terrorism and aggression; but failed. You cannot (with any dignity) claim foul just because you are weaker than your adversary which beat you at your own game.

While Israel does not have any terrorist organizations today, the HoAP pledges to violate law:

• "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."
  
• "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine." ... ... ... the "Commando (Feday'ee) action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

antique4xpu, et al,

I thought the "International Law" in question was governed by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

Article IX

3. This Treaty shall enter into force after its ratification by the States, the Governments of which are designated Depositaries of the Treaty, and forty other States signatory to this Treaty and the deposit of their instruments of ratification. For the purposes of this Treaty, a nuclear-weapon State is one which has manufactured and exploded a nuclear weapon or other nuclear explosive device prior to 1 January 1967.

Article 12 Consent to be bound by a treaty expressed by signature

1. The consent of a State to be bound by a treaty is expressed by the signature of its representative when:

(a) the treaty provides that signature shall have that effect;

(b) it is otherwise established that the negotiating States were agreed that signature should have that effect; or

(c) the intention of the State to give that effect to the signature appears from the full powers of its representative or was expressed during the negotiation.

SOURCE: Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties Done at Vienna on 23 May 1969

(OBSERVATION)

• IRAN (ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF): Is a signatory to the NPT:
  Page 34 of NPT
  Address: Permanent Mission of the Islamic Republic of Iran to the United Nations
  622 Third Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10017
  Telephone: (212) 687-2020​

• ISRAEL (STATE OF): Is NOT a signatory to the NPT

(QUESTION)

Is the STATE of ISRAEL, which is not a party to the NPT, subject to the same requirements as the ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of IRAN, which is a party to the NPT?


(COMMENT)

All states, especially the US, operated in their own best interest. Fairness and international politics rarely have an intercept point.

perhaps no one remembers that the nation of israel was founded on acts of terrorism , i remind you that menachem begin was wanted for terrorist crimes against the british. can you not see the similarity of the king david hotel massacre by the jews and acts or terrorism committed by hezbollah ?

(OBSERVATION)

Article Seven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.​

SOURCE: The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement

(COMMENT)

I have stated several times that neither side has clean hands. But some hands are a bit more dirty than others.

"Izz al-Din al-Qissam was killed by British Police in Palestine on November 20, 1935; after a decade (plus) of anti-Jewish/Zionist and anti-Mandate terrorism operations. In 1930 al-Qassam formed the Palestinian Black Hand after the 1929 Palestine Western Wall Uprising riot.

Arguments suggest that the Israelis started the (alleged) ethnic cleansing "before the war." Yet the first engagement was Hebron (1929) and 1929 Safed riots (1929); not excluding the Palestinian namesake today recognizes Izz ad-Din al-Qassam as well as Haj Amin Al-Husseini (the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem).

But even before then, one of the major incidents that triggered regimentation of Jewish Defense Forces was the inflammatory anti-Zionist rhetoric of Amin al-Husseini which instigated the April 1920, uprising in the Old City (Nebi Musa riots) that caused 50,000 Arabs to attack Jews. It was after these attacks that the Haganah (1920) emerged as a defense force. The Irgun (1931) did not emerge until the Black Hand of al-Qassam began operations.

Yes, eight decades ago, both side employed terrorism. One side evolved beyond that tactic, while the other side still endorses it today.

In this argument, it must be remembered that the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) attempted to bring forth an Islamic State through terrorism and aggression; but failed. You cannot (with any dignity) claim foul just because you are weaker than your adversary which beat you at your own game.

While Israel does not have any terrorist organizations today, the HoAP pledges to violate law:

• "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."
  
• "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine." ... ... ... the "Commando (Feday'ee) action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war."

Most Respectfully,
R

Interested in reading what law you are talking about.

Copy/paste the relevant passages.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I did!

antique4xpu, et al,

I thought the "International Law" in question was governed by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

Article IX

3. This Treaty shall enter into force after its ratification by the States, the Governments of which are designated Depositaries of the Treaty, and forty other States signatory to this Treaty and the deposit of their instruments of ratification. For the purposes of this Treaty, a nuclear-weapon State is one which has manufactured and exploded a nuclear weapon or other nuclear explosive device prior to 1 January 1967.

​

(OBSERVATION)

• IRAN (ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF): Is a signatory to the NPT:
  Page 34 of NPT
  Address: Permanent Mission of the Islamic Republic of Iran to the United Nations
  622 Third Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10017
  Telephone: (212) 687-2020​

• ISRAEL (STATE OF): Is NOT a signatory to the NPT

(QUESTION)

Is the STATE of ISRAEL, which is not a party to the NPT, subject to the same requirements as the ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of IRAN, which is a party to the NPT?


(COMMENT)

All states, especially the US, operated in their own best interest. Fairness and international politics rarely have an intercept point.


(OBSERVATION)

Article Seven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.​

SOURCE: The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement

(COMMENT)

I have stated several times that neither side has clean hands. But some hands are a bit more dirty than others.

"Izz al-Din al-Qissam was killed by British Police in Palestine on November 20, 1935; after a decade (plus) of anti-Jewish/Zionist and anti-Mandate terrorism operations. In 1930 al-Qassam formed the Palestinian Black Hand after the 1929 Palestine Western Wall Uprising riot.

Arguments suggest that the Israelis started the (alleged) ethnic cleansing "before the war." Yet the first engagement was Hebron (1929) and 1929 Safed riots (1929); not excluding the Palestinian namesake today recognizes Izz ad-Din al-Qassam as well as Haj Amin Al-Husseini (the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem).

But even before then, one of the major incidents that triggered regimentation of Jewish Defense Forces was the inflammatory anti-Zionist rhetoric of Amin al-Husseini which instigated the April 1920, uprising in the Old City (Nebi Musa riots) that caused 50,000 Arabs to attack Jews. It was after these attacks that the Haganah (1920) emerged as a defense force. The Irgun (1931) did not emerge until the Black Hand of al-Qassam began operations.

Yes, eight decades ago, both side employed terrorism. One side evolved beyond that tactic, while the other side still endorses it today.

In this argument, it must be remembered that the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) attempted to bring forth an Islamic State through terrorism and aggression; but failed. You cannot (with any dignity) claim foul just because you are weaker than your adversary which beat you at your own game.

While Israel does not have any terrorist organizations today, the HoAP pledges to violate law:

• "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."
  
• "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine." ... ... ... the "Commando (Feday'ee) action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war."

Most Respectfully,
R

Interested in reading what law you are talking about.

Copy/paste the relevant passages.

(COMMENT)

See above. http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...-the-same-as-south-africa-43.html#post7778299


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I did!

antique4xpu, et al,

I thought the "International Law" in question was governed by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

​

​

(OBSERVATION)

• IRAN (ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF): Is a signatory to the NPT:
  Page 34 of NPT
  Address: Permanent Mission of the Islamic Republic of Iran to the United Nations
  622 Third Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10017
  Telephone: (212) 687-2020​

• ISRAEL (STATE OF): Is NOT a signatory to the NPT

(QUESTION)

Is the STATE of ISRAEL, which is not a party to the NPT, subject to the same requirements as the ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of IRAN, which is a party to the NPT?


(COMMENT)

All states, especially the US, operated in their own best interest. Fairness and international politics rarely have an intercept point.


(OBSERVATION)



(COMMENT)

I have stated several times that neither side has clean hands. But some hands are a bit more dirty than others.

"Izz al-Din al-Qissam was killed by British Police in Palestine on November 20, 1935; after a decade (plus) of anti-Jewish/Zionist and anti-Mandate terrorism operations. In 1930 al-Qassam formed the Palestinian Black Hand after the 1929 Palestine Western Wall Uprising riot.

Arguments suggest that the Israelis started the (alleged) ethnic cleansing "before the war." Yet the first engagement was Hebron (1929) and 1929 Safed riots (1929); not excluding the Palestinian namesake today recognizes Izz ad-Din al-Qassam as well as Haj Amin Al-Husseini (the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem).

But even before then, one of the major incidents that triggered regimentation of Jewish Defense Forces was the inflammatory anti-Zionist rhetoric of Amin al-Husseini which instigated the April 1920, uprising in the Old City (Nebi Musa riots) that caused 50,000 Arabs to attack Jews. It was after these attacks that the Haganah (1920) emerged as a defense force. The Irgun (1931) did not emerge until the Black Hand of al-Qassam began operations.

Yes, eight decades ago, both side employed terrorism. One side evolved beyond that tactic, while the other side still endorses it today.

In this argument, it must be remembered that the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) attempted to bring forth an Islamic State through terrorism and aggression; but failed. You cannot (with any dignity) claim foul just because you are weaker than your adversary which beat you at your own game.

While Israel does not have any terrorist organizations today, the HoAP pledges to violate law:

• "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."
  
• "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine." ... ... ... the "Commando (Feday'ee) action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war."

Most Respectfully,
R

Interested in reading what law you are talking about.

Copy/paste the relevant passages.

(COMMENT)

See above.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK???

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Sorry, I misunderstood what you wanted.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I did!

Interested in reading what law you are talking about.

Copy/paste the relevant passages.

(COMMENT)

See above.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK???

We resolve to undertake the following measures to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:

To refrain from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.

To cooperate fully in the fight against terrorism, in accordance with our obligations under international law, in order to find, deny safe haven and bring to justice, on the basis of the principle of extradite or prosecute, any person who supports, facilitates, participates or attempts to participate in the financing, planning, preparation or perpetration of terrorist acts or provides safe havens.
​

SOURCE: United Nations General Assembly Adopts Global Counter Terrorism Strategy

v/r
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Sorry, I misunderstood what you wanted.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I did!


(COMMENT)

See above.

Most Respectfully,
R

OK???

We resolve to undertake the following measures to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:

To refrain from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.

To cooperate fully in the fight against terrorism, in accordance with our obligations under international law, in order to find, deny safe haven and bring to justice, on the basis of the principle of extradite or prosecute, any person who supports, facilitates, participates or attempts to participate in the financing, planning, preparation or perpetration of terrorist acts or provides safe havens.
​

SOURCE: United Nations General Assembly Adopts Global Counter Terrorism Strategy

v/r
R

OK, so how is that applicable to the Palestinians?

 

[toastman]

Rocco, don't fall for Tinmore's questions. He's just playing stupid

 

[Kondor3]

iran may or may not wish to develop a nuclear weapon. that would be in violation of international law. on the other hand , israel has some 125 or 130 nuclear weapons now and also in violation of the same international law

And what might that international law be?

Seconded... I, too, would like to know what 'international law' we are talking about here...

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rocco, don't fall for Tinmore's questions. He's just playing stupid

Not to worry, that question is never answered.

 

[Hossfly]

Rocco, don't fall for Tinmore's questions. He's just playing stupid

Not to worry, that question is never answered.

What question is that, O Keeper of the Lamp?

 

[antique4xpu]

i guess i did not know that israel never signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty

i am not surprised

they lied to france and the rest of the world when they claimed their nuclear research was not connected to building weapons ..... ( sounds familiar )

the US should make it clear that any nation that uses such weapons of mass destruction will be dealt in kind by the american military.

failing to get american guarantees for the safety of the middle east from all parties , we should end all monetary support for israel .... just as we have done for iran

 

[Hossfly]

i guess i did not know that israel never signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty

i am not surprised

they lied to france and the rest of the world when they claimed their nuclear research was not connected to building weapons ..... ( sounds familiar )

the US should make it clear that any nation that uses such weapons of mass destruction will be dealt in kind by the american military.

failing to get american guarantees for the safety of the middle east from all parties , we should end all monetary support for israel .... just as we have done for iran

I nominate antique4xpu for US Ambassador to the UM. All in favor say Aye.

 

[docmauser1]

i guess i did not know that israel never signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty i am not surprised they lied to france and the rest of the world when they claimed their nuclear research was not connected to building weapons ..... ( sounds familiar ) the US should make it clear that any nation that uses such weapons of mass destruction will be dealt in kind by the american military. failing to get american guarantees for the safety of the middle east from all parties , we should end all monetary support for israel .... just as we have done for iran

Drivel.

 

[toastman]

i guess i did not know that israel never signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty

i am not surprised

they lied to france and the rest of the world when they claimed their nuclear research was not connected to building weapons ..... ( sounds familiar )

the US should make it clear that any nation that uses such weapons of mass destruction will be dealt in kind by the american military.

failing to get american guarantees for the safety of the middle east from all parties , we should end all monetary support for israel .... just as we have done for iran

I nominate antique4xpu for US Ambassador to the UM. All in favor say Aye.

Aye !


Oh, and his post is drivel

 

[Kondor3]

Ambassador to the UM?

University of Minnesota?

 

[RoccoR]

antique4xpu, et al,

Interesting!

i guess i did not know that israel never signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty

(COMMENT)

Nor, is there a requirement to sign the NPT. Plus, even if it had --- within the Treaty, there is an escape clause.

Article X

1. Each Party shall in exercising its national sovereignty have the right to withdraw from the Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country. It shall give notice of such withdrawal to all other Parties to the Treaty and to the United Nations Security Council three months in advance. Such notice shall include a statement of the extraordinary events it regards as having jeopardized its supreme interests.

SOURCE: NPT Treaty

Whether or not Israel has a nuclear weapons capability is an unknown. While there is evidence that in early November 1966, Israel most probably conducted a "zero yield test," (sometimes called an "implosion test"), there has been no real evidence of Israel ever carrying out an actual nuclear test. There were rumors of a possible joint test (with South Africa) in the in the southern Indian Ocean in 1979; but in the last three decades, that was never verified and no additional information has ever clarified the nature of the test (if it indeed happened).

they lied to france and the rest of the world when they claimed their nuclear research was not connected to building weapons ..... ( sounds familiar )

(COMMENT)

No nuclear weapons state discloses the entire character of their weapons program.

However since France was an original nuclear research partner with Israel. "Israeli scientists probably helped construct the G-1 plutonium production reactor and UP-1 reprocessing plant at Marcoule. France made significant advances in Nuclear Weapons Development from two Israeli patents on heavy water production and low-grade uranium enrichment." (See: FAS Israeli Nuke Research ) There is no reason to assume that France really did not understand the weapons research potential of Israeli Scientists.

the US should make it clear that any nation that uses such weapons of mass destruction will be dealt in kind by the american military.

(COMMENT)

Two points here.

• First is, this is a United States World Police concept, wherein, you advocate that the US unilaterally become involved in the enforcement of certain proscribed behaviors. This is the very thing that many nations find unacceptable about the US.

• Second, there is a very grave difference between the offensive use of Nuclear Weapons and the use of such weapons in the defense of their nation. It must be remembered that in the last three Middle East Wars, when Israel faced aggression from the Arab League, it was 5 Armies against 1 Army. The world did not come to the defense of Israel in 1948, 1967, or the sneak attack of 1973. Israel has no reasonable expectation that any nation will come to its aid in any future attack by the Arab League. Therefore, Chapter VII, Article 51 applies.

Article 51

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.​

SOURCE: CHAPTER VII: ACTION WITH RESPECT TO THREATS TO THE PEACE, BREACHES OF THE PEACE, AND ACTS OF AGGRESSION

If the US is not going to actively defend Israel, then it has no business interfering with Israel's active defense. It is then up to the aggressor if they want to risk the possibility of triggering the Samson Option.

failing to get american guarantees for the safety of the middle east from all parties , we should end all monetary support for israel .... just as we have done for iran

(COMMENT)

This is not a totally unreasonable position to take. The US can cut-off the monetary flow to the Palestinians that they have been using to make payroll and the current US Aid Programs in progress, as well. That might trigger a reaction.

I am not opposed to such consideration. Israel, in turn, would not share any of the exports from Levant Basin Gas and Oil finds with the EU or the US. Nor, would Israel participate in any joint efforts on regional security or intelligence sharing.

We should, as part of this strategy, completely pull-out of the Persian Gulf. That would balance out the policy of playing defender for any of the Arab States.

I'm sure the Russian would not mind at all. They would probably help us move out of the region and present send-off gifts.

This seems fair. All we have to do is remember and accept the consequence of our actions. Otherwise, it is a perfectly acceptable position to open up for national debate.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

Ambassador to the UM?

University of Minnesota?

United Muslims. Pay attention!

 

[Kondor3]

Ambassador to the UM?

University of Minnesota?

United Muslims. Pay attention!

I am properly chastised, and offer thanks for remedying my ignorance...