Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[Hossfly]

Hoffsra, you seem to have forgotten the Jordanian Army shelling civilian neigborhoods in EJ - and forcing out the Jewish residents of those EJ neighborhoods when the fighting stopped, in a well-document (LIFE magazine) instance of ethnic cleansing.

EJ was indeed captured by the Jordanians and remained under *illegal* Jordanian occupation for 19 years - during which time Jews from everywhere in the world were denied access to the Western Wall.

So EJ wasn't really "Palestinian" because the Jordanians controlled it.

There used to be a poster with the screen name of Nonawill who actually lived through the Siege of Jerusalem, and she related the hardships the Jews had to go through. The following will give you some idea.

The Siege of Jerusalem | World Machal

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Here we go.

Israeli forces were inside Palestine defending themselves?

(COMMENT)

Yes, the IDF was in Israel that had Declared Independence. Defending itself from Arab attack.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't know how you put up with Tinmore as much as you do. You have the patience of a ....something... I'm actually not sure how the sentence ends...Saint maybe ?

Yes, Rocco has the patience of a Saint; and I think everyone can see just from reading Tinnie's posts why the "Palestinian" Arabs will never accept Israel. How can anyone make peace when the other "Palestinian" Arabs no doubt have the same mind set as Tinnie?

 

[Coyote]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Here we go.


(COMMENT)

Yes, the IDF was in Israel that had Declared Independence. Defending itself from Arab attack.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't know how you put up with Tinmore as much as you do. You have the patience of a ....something... I'm actually not sure how the sentence ends...Saint maybe ?

Yes, Rocco has the patience of a Saint; and I think everyone can see just from reading Tinnie's posts why the "Palestinian" Arabs will never accept Israel. How can anyone make peace when the other "Palestinian" Arabs no doubt have the same mind set as Tinnie?

Actually, according to Palestinian public opinion polls the majority DO accept the existance of Israel.

 

[Hossfly]

I don't know how you put up with Tinmore as much as you do. You have the patience of a ....something... I'm actually not sure how the sentence ends...Saint maybe ?

Yes, Rocco has the patience of a Saint; and I think everyone can see just from reading Tinnie's posts why the "Palestinian" Arabs will never accept Israel. How can anyone make peace when the other "Palestinian" Arabs no doubt have the same mind set as Tinnie?

Actually, according to Palestinian public opinion polls the majority DO accept the existance of Israel.

Would you mind showing us the polls and how many people were polled? Give us the results from both Gaza and the West Bank. I think they were posted some time ago but I don't remember the results.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

This would be a very positive first step.

Actually, according to Palestinian public opinion polls the majority DO accept the existence of Israel.

(COMMENT)

(Assuming this is true...)

Now, if there were some way that this could be amplified and used to kick-start a genuinely reciprocal response from Israel, then we might have something.

Someone has to take the first step towards peace. In many respects, logically, that would be Israel. They are the risk-takers, they need to make a significant gesture in response.

Most Respectfully,
R

PS: No, I can say, without reservation, that I am not a Saint. Just a poor old Sicilian Boy trying to make his way through the world. BUT! I'll take the canonization anyway. With that, and my Senior Citizen Card, I might get a free lunch at Saint Vincent de Paul's Soup Kitchen.

 

[toastman]

Coyote, et al,

This would be a very positive first step.

Actually, according to Palestinian public opinion polls the majority DO accept the existence of Israel.

(COMMENT)

(Assuming this is true...)

Now, if there were some way that this could be amplified and used to kick-start a genuinely reciprocal response from Israel, then we might have something.

Someone has to take the first step towards peace. In many respects, logically, that would be Israel. They are the risk-takers, they need to make a significant gesture in response.

Most Respectfully,
R

PS: No, I can say, without reservation, that I am not a Saint. Just a poor old Sicilian Boy trying to make his way through the world. BUT! I'll take the canonization anyway. With that, and my Senior Citizen Card, I might get a free lunch at Saint Vincent de Paul's Soup Kitchen.

What about the recent release of prisoners? Isn't that a gesture

 

[RoccoR]

toastman, et al,

Yes, it is a gesture, but a "gesture on demand" and not a spontaneous and unsolicited response to positive events.

Coyote, et al,

This would be a very positive first step.

Actually, according to Palestinian public opinion polls the majority DO accept the existence of Israel.

(COMMENT)

(Assuming this is true...)

Now, if there were some way that this could be amplified and used to kick-start a genuinely reciprocal response from Israel, then we might have something.

Someone has to take the first step towards peace. In many respects, logically, that would be Israel. They are the risk-takers, they need to make a significant gesture in response.

What about the recent release of prisoners? Isn't that a gesture

(COMMENT)

I'm talking about something that will impact a wide cross-section of West Bank inhabitance. Something like lift the roadblocks and checkpoints; or building a huge, first class, emergency medical center; or solving the fresh water shortage issue.

These are thing that can be done to change the face of the Occupation and the two parties in conflict.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[MHunterB]

"building a huge, first class, emergency medical center"

Health care in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hadassah medical convoy massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Just a bit of background information......

Basicallly, it sounds like Rocco is advocating the Israelis expand their health care system -paid for by Israelis - to the WB 'Palestinians'. Does anyone want to place a bet on how long would be the time before a repeat of events akin to my second link above were to take place?

 

[RoccoR]

MHunterB, et al,

It is a suggestion.

"building a huge, first class, emergency medical center"

Health care in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hadassah medical convoy massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Just a bit of background information......

Basicallly, it sounds like Rocco is advocating the Israelis expand their health care system -paid for by Israelis - to the WB 'Palestinians'. Does anyone want to place a bet on how long would be the time before a repeat of events akin to my second link above were to take place?

(COMMENT)

In everything the Israeli's do, there will be a calculated "risk" involved. And someone has to seriously look at the risk and do a cost-benefit analysis. But if the image, face and reputation is going to change, one side or the other is going to have to step outside the box to alter the current paradigm. No question, it would be a bold move, requiring a dedication to purpose and a measure of bravery.

Such a strategy is not unheard of in the region.

Hezbollah social services are social development programs, hospitals, news services, and educational facilities organized by the Lebanese paramilitary group, Hezbollah. Social services have a central role in the party's programs. Most experts believe that Hezbollah's social and health programs are worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually. The American think tank Council on Foreign Relations also said that Hezbollah "is a major provider of social services, operating schools, hospitals, and agricultural services for thousands of Lebanese Shiites."

SOURCE: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What would be even more amazing, and throw everyone off balance, is if the Israelis were to build a Mosque (something spectacular) in Ramallah. When I was in Yemen, I saw the Grand Mosque the Saudi's built for the people in Sanaa. Truly amazing.

It would at least get people talking. It would be something other than a security measure; yet, make a positive contribution towards the security of the two peoples.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[docmauser1]

The Arab states entered Palestine to assist the Palestinians in Palestine.

In their attempts to redistribute jewish property and holdings, of course.

That is a clear cut case of defense.

Whatever the excuse of the day.

 

[docmauser1]

However, in this case, the creation of the State of Israel was affected by the right of self-determination. They declared independence.

You have never posted anything that states how foreigners going to another country with the stated goal of taking over that country claim self determination.

I did. Goes this way:
"So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population." Winnie Churchill.

 

[docmauser1]

Actually, according to Palestinian public opinion polls the majority DO accept the existance of Israel.

Of course! One can't dream of plundering something nonexistent.

 

[docmauser1]

I'm talking about something that will impact a wide cross-section of West Bank inhabitance. Something like lift the roadblocks and checkpoints;

So that Israel has an "illegal mexican" problem of its own?

or building a huge, first class, emergency medical center;

Well, they're building a Red Crescent one in Ramallah.

or solving the fresh water shortage issue.

Well, they have their "Palestinian Water Authority" for dr. Dr. Shaddad Attili to run, let him excercise his issue-solving powers.

These are thing that can be done to change the face of the Occupation and the two parties in conflict.

There's no occupation, of course. Forget it.

 

[Hoffstra]

Hafrada is similar to Apartheid.

 

[Hossfly]

Hafrada is similar to Apartheid.

Hafrada () is the English transliteration of the Hebrew word for separation.
In Israel, the term is used to refer to the concept of separation, and to the general policy of separation the Israeli
government has adopted and implemented over the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The Israeli West Bank barrier, (in Hebrew, Geder Ha'hafrada or "separation fence") and from Gaza have been cited as
examples of hafrada.
Other names for hafrada when discussed in English include unilateral separation or unilateral disengagement.
Since its first public introductions, the concept-turned-policy or paradigm has dominated Israeli political and cultural
discourse and debate.


http://wikibin.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=33351

 

[Hossfly]

Hafrada is similar to Apartheid.

It is obvious that Miss Hoffstra is reading Mondoweiss. Maybe Miss Hoffstra can arrange for that group, Muslims for Israel, to debate with Mr. Weiss.

 

[Hossfly]

docmauser1, georgephillip, et al,

It is not necessarily "drivel." While you and I may see this as a fallacious and frivolous claim, it seems pretty clear that georgephillip may have looked at General Assembly resolution 3068 (XXVIII) of 30 November 1973 (International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid) and or Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

"The question is not 'Is Israel the same as South Africa?'
It is 'do Israel's actions meet the international definition of what apartheid is?'

Drivel.

(COMMENT)

We have yet to hear the specific allegation. What aspect of these laws (he needs to specify one) does he claim Israel violated by some specific action.

Most Respectfully,
R

Listen, Georgie Boy will never even take time to write the daughter of South Africa's leader.
Israel is NOT apartheid state, says South African leader's daughter - Israel Today | Israel News

 

[Hoffstra]

No, South Africa is now a democracy that gives equal rights to all citizens.

Unlike Israel.

 

[RoccoR]

Hoffstra, et al,

So, your allegation is that there are two different sets of laws in Israel for citizens.

No, South Africa is now a democracy that gives equal rights to all citizens.

Unlike Israel.

(COMMENT)

What are the two classes of citizen? And please give me an example of how the Israeli Law treats them differently. It will help me understand better.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

No, South Africa is now a democracy that gives equal rights to all citizens.

Unlike Israel.

True...

Israel gave equal rights to everyone who was willing to live in peace under the Israeli government...

Israel gave short shrift and exile to those who sided with their Arab-Muslim neighbor countries in multiple failed attempts to drown the Jews in the Mediterranean and to suicide-bomb and rocket-attack innocent Israeli civilians...

An understandable and logical distinction...