Is it Time to Change the Rule of Law in America?

[RealDave]

I don't think even you could "apprehend" your own point..... You seem to be running in circles looking for it...

My point, which others have also brought up, is that a vote on a Supreme Court nominee is not a trial and the legal concept of innocent until proven guilty does not apply. Legally Kavanaugh remains innocent of any crime, but there is no requirement for the representatives to vote based on his legal innocence, nor even to take his innocence or guilt into consideration.

Not every legal process involves the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

Whether the accusations are fantasy allegations or based on facts, the representatives who are voting are not legally required to assume Kavanaugh's innocence so far as I am aware. They are not even required to take his innocence or guilt into account in their voting.

The idea that the legal system is being changed by these accusations is ridiculous. The legal system has not presumed that Kavanaugh is guilty. What public opinion or the personal opinion of the representatives might be does not change Kavanaugh's legal presumption of innocence.

Still too unclear for you?

What has been portrayed in the press and by our politicians, Kavanaughs legal presumption of innocence has been challenged.
Kav has been convicted in the court of public opinion. I know this wasn't a criminal case. The optics I have witnessed made me wonder if liberals think its time to change the rule of law? You are one of the few from the left that gave a thought provoking answer to the question. Most gave responses which was why the question seemed relevant.

I'm not "from the left," but I appreciate the post.

I completely agree that too many people have seemingly assumed Kavanaugh's guilt based on partisan affiliation. To be fair, I think plenty of people probably believe in his innocence not because of the concept of innocent until proven guilty, but because of partisan affiliation.

Unfortunately you are almost certainly right that there are some extremists who would like to see the presumption of innocence degraded, if not done away with; in certain cases, at least. I don't think it is any sort of general movement among liberals, though. I certainly hope not! However, again, the rule of law has not been challenged here. Kavanaugh is not being charged with a crime, so innocent until proven guilty does not apply. Legally speaking, he maintains the presumption of innocence, regardless of the result of his confirmation vote or the hooplah surrounding it.

Since the proof of guilt requires a trial, are you saying that everyone is innocent of any crime that is too old, or has no witnesses or physical proof?

This is a case of he aid/she said.

Ford said yes, Kavanaugh said no, his buddy in the room can't remember. Criminal cases involve this situation often. I think of Jerry Sandusky, Those priests, Bill Cosby. These do get prosecuted & it comes down to credibility.

We know Kavanaugh lied under oath about his drinking and several other points.

We know the FBI investigation never spoke with other accusers, other classmates with information, never investigated the lies. We know Trump liedabout the scope of the FBI investigation as did Grassley.We know Judge Roberts hid complaints he had received from the District Courts in DC.

It comes down to character & credibility. Kavanaugh showed neither in his rant-like testimony.
The Republican party showed no character whatsoever.

I'm saying just what I posted. Legally, everyone is presumed innocent until convicted of a crime; that includes Kavanaugh.

So Jerry Sandusky never molested anyone until his trial ended with a guilty verdict?

 

[Auld Phart]

Republicans have proven that women don't matter.

Don't matter much to Bill and Hillary did they?

Nor the Democrats that gave him a pass on impeachment.

But, keep posting your hypocrisy
for everyone to see.


Makes reading threads a pleasure

So you think it was proper to prosecute Bill for lying under oath but not Kavanaugh for lying under oath. Who are you calling a hypocrite here?

Bull supposedly lied about a consensual sexual affair while Kavanaugh was lying about attempted Rape.

Sill you can't see the difference.

Who are you calling a hypocrite here?

You, obviously

while Kavanaugh was lying about attempted Rape.

he was?

got proof?

Neither did she

 

[RealDave]

Republicans have proven that women don't matter.

Don't matter much to Bill and Hillary did they?

Nor the Democrats that gave him a pass on impeachment.

But, keep posting your hypocrisy
for everyone to see.


Makes reading threads a pleasure

So you think it was proper to prosecute Bill for lying under oath but not Kavanaugh for lying under oath. Who are you calling a hypocrite here?

Bull supposedly lied about a consensual sexual affair while Kavanaugh was lying about attempted Rape.

Sill you can't see the difference.

She did not know what happened, where it happened, how it happened, and she has no proof... you silly little fucker

She knows what happened. Is attempted rape different depending on which house it is in???? Does it not exist unless there are witnesses?

Does a women get assaulted in the middfle of the forrest if no one is there to see?

 

[Auld Phart]

Republicans have proven that women don't matter.

Don't matter much to Bill and Hillary did they?

Nor the Democrats that gave him a pass on impeachment.

But, keep posting your hypocrisy
for everyone to see.


Makes reading threads a pleasure

So you think it was proper to prosecute Bill for lying under oath but not Kavanaugh for lying under oath. Who are you calling a hypocrite here?

Bull supposedly lied about a consensual sexual affair while Kavanaugh was lying about attempted Rape.

Sill you can't see the difference.

She did not know what happened, where it happened, how it happened, and she has no proof... you silly little fucker

She knows what happened. Is attempted rape different depending on which house it is in???? Does it not exist unless there are witnesses?

Does a women get assaulted in the middfle of the forrest if no one is there to see?

Ever hear of Crystal Gail Mangum?

 

[Rustic]

Republicans have proven that women don't matter.

Don't matter much to Bill and Hillary did they?

Nor the Democrats that gave him a pass on impeachment.

But, keep posting your hypocrisy
for everyone to see.


Makes reading threads a pleasure

So you think it was proper to prosecute Bill for lying under oath but not Kavanaugh for lying under oath. Who are you calling a hypocrite here?

Bull supposedly lied about a consensual sexual affair while Kavanaugh was lying about attempted Rape.

Sill you can't see the difference.

She did not know what happened, where it happened, how it happened, and she has no proof... you silly little fucker

She knows what happened. Is attempted rape different depending on which house it is in???? Does it not exist unless there are witnesses?

Does a women get assaulted in the middfle of the forrest if no one is there to see?

She has no credibility, she destroyed his family with her false allegations

 

[Rustic]

Democrat Party's 2018 platform is based entirely on "Guilt by accusation".

Republicans are running on: Rape & sexual assault os OK if there are no witnesses.

Lying under oath is permissible if you are a Republican.

--------------------------------------- i don't think so , i think that rape and sex assault should be reported in timely fashion to proper authorities and whatever evidence should be gathered in a timely fashion RDave .

What you think is worthless. What counts is what psychiatrists think. They know the trauma & how it affects people.

All Ford was doing is letting people know what Kavanaugh had done. She didn't realize so many of you don't give a shit.

You voted for Trump. Accused by 18 women. Accused of Child rape Accused of Spousal Rape.., An admitted Groper.

'Hell, you probably wanted Kavanaugh even more after Ford told her story.


Republicans have proven that women don't matter. Grassley called them weak, Trump, Kavanaugh & you think sexual assault should be rewarded.

Lol
Says a Clinton supporter

 

[Rustic]

I don't know what you think my point is, but you are clearly misapprehending it.

I don't think even you could "apprehend" your own point..... You seem to be running in circles looking for it...

My point, which others have also brought up, is that a vote on a Supreme Court nominee is not a trial and the legal concept of innocent until proven guilty does not apply. Legally Kavanaugh remains innocent of any crime, but there is no requirement for the representatives to vote based on his legal innocence, nor even to take his innocence or guilt into consideration.

Not every legal process involves the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

Whether the accusations are fantasy allegations or based on facts, the representatives who are voting are not legally required to assume Kavanaugh's innocence so far as I am aware. They are not even required to take his innocence or guilt into account in their voting.

The idea that the legal system is being changed by these accusations is ridiculous. The legal system has not presumed that Kavanaugh is guilty. What public opinion or the personal opinion of the representatives might be does not change Kavanaugh's legal presumption of innocence.

Still too unclear for you?

What has been portrayed in the press and by our politicians, Kavanaughs legal presumption of innocence has been challenged.
Kav has been convicted in the court of public opinion. I know this wasn't a criminal case. The optics I have witnessed made me wonder if liberals think its time to change the rule of law? You are one of the few from the left that gave a thought provoking answer to the question. Most gave responses which was why the question seemed relevant.

I'm not "from the left," but I appreciate the post.

I completely agree that too many people have seemingly assumed Kavanaugh's guilt based on partisan affiliation. To be fair, I think plenty of people probably believe in his innocence not because of the concept of innocent until proven guilty, but because of partisan affiliation.

Unfortunately you are almost certainly right that there are some extremists who would like to see the presumption of innocence degraded, if not done away with; in certain cases, at least. I don't think it is any sort of general movement among liberals, though. I certainly hope not! However, again, the rule of law has not been challenged here. Kavanaugh is not being charged with a crime, so innocent until proven guilty does not apply. Legally speaking, he maintains the presumption of innocence, regardless of the result of his confirmation vote or the hooplah surrounding it.

Since the proof of guilt requires a trial, are you saying that everyone is innocent of any crime that is too old, or has no witnesses or physical proof?

This is a case of he aid/she said.

Ford said yes, Kavanaugh said no, his buddy in the room can't remember. Criminal cases involve this situation often. I think of Jerry Sandusky, Those priests, Bill Cosby. These do get prosecuted & it comes down to credibility.

We know Kavanaugh lied under oath about his drinking and several other points.

We know the FBI investigation never spoke with other accusers, other classmates with information, never investigated the lies. We know Trump liedabout the scope of the FBI investigation as did Grassley.We know Judge Roberts hid complaints he had received from the District Courts in DC.

It comes down to character & credibility. Kavanaugh showed neither in his rant-like testimony.
The Republican party showed no character whatsoever.

Ford was paid to lie, and has zero credibility

 

[Rustic]

Notwithstanding whether or not one believed Kavanaugh or Ford, a judicial appointment is not about the rule of law. It is a political process based on the suitability of the individual being appointed. There is no "innocent until proven guilty" standard in the political process.

Agreed, that isn't the point of the OP. The point is the participants such as MSM, senators, and the protesters reacted in a way that seemed
to be willing to change the rule of law for political expediency. I just threw it out there chumming the waters to see what I would get.
You would have to admit that this went beyond a generic political process. The political process would have had it come out in the Sept. hearings
or before if they were sincere.

In a time when a large portion of the country thinks the last President was born in Kenya, I don’t think it went outside the generic political process.

But, not a character assassination. Rapist....serial rapist, pedophile? Did they have a senate...."job interview" on the subject?
You're talking apples and oranges, Toro.

Yeah, you’re right. Nobody said shit like that about the Clintons.

YOU DID> You fucking asswipes ran screaming through the streets " OMG OMG OMG OMG MonIca!!!!!, OMG OMG OMG:"

Then you turn around & voted for a POS like Trump.

The vast majority of accusations again Clinton came after his elections. So people were not voting knowing about these. You knew about Trump.
'

Karma is a bitch, There would be no Trump if there was no Obama. And then you silly fuckers tried to force Hildabeast on us

 

[Fang]

Does a trans-woman have to be listened to and believed regardless of proof (or lack thereof), or is that only naturally born women?

 

[RealDave]

We need a discussion on whether a person now should have to prove his innocence
than having an accuser having to prove the person's guilt.
During the Kavanaugh hearings, one party seemed to demand proof of innocence from
Kavanaugh. This same party did not demand the accuser to prove Kavanaugh's guilt.
This went so far as to have the MSM be complicit in their covering of the hearings.
This went so far as to have the 'grassroot gatherings' be complicit in the covering of
the hearings.
All three entities, the democrat party, the MSM, and the 'grassroot gatherers' all abandoned
what made the United States great with it's judicial system. They all demanded that an accused had to
prove his innocence, even when the evidence did not back the accuser.
Is it time to change our judicial system?
What say you?

Yep, They acted like Europeans. Their system is guilty until proven innocent, And they have no right to freedom of speech over there and no right to firearms.

liar

Agreed, that isn't the point of the OP. The point is the participants such as MSM, senators, and the protesters reacted in a way that seemed
to be willing to change the rule of law for political expediency. I just threw it out there chumming the waters to see what I would get.
You would have to admit that this went beyond a generic political process. The political process would have had it come out in the Sept. hearings
or before if they were sincere.

In a time when a large portion of the country thinks the last President was born in Kenya, I don’t think it went outside the generic political process.

But, not a character assassination. Rapist....serial rapist, pedophile? Did they have a senate...."job interview" on the subject?
You're talking apples and oranges, Toro.

Yeah, you’re right. Nobody said shit like that about the Clintons.

YOU DID> You fucking asswipes ran screaming through the streets " OMG OMG OMG OMG MonIca!!!!!, OMG OMG OMG:"

Then you turn around & voted for a POS like Trump.

The vast majority of accusations again Clinton came after his elections. So people were not voting knowing about these. You knew about Trump.
'

Karma is a bitch, There would be no Trump if there was no Obama. And then you silly fuckers tried to force Hildabeast on us

So,you are saying you were so fucking stupid that you voted for Trump & that is Obama's fault?

How did Obama make orump win the nomination? By being black & firing up the racist & bigot vote?

 

[Rustic]

We need a discussion on whether a person now should have to prove his innocence
than having an accuser having to prove the person's guilt.
During the Kavanaugh hearings, one party seemed to demand proof of innocence from
Kavanaugh. This same party did not demand the accuser to prove Kavanaugh's guilt.
This went so far as to have the MSM be complicit in their covering of the hearings.
This went so far as to have the 'grassroot gatherings' be complicit in the covering of
the hearings.
All three entities, the democrat party, the MSM, and the 'grassroot gatherers' all abandoned
what made the United States great with it's judicial system. They all demanded that an accused had to
prove his innocence, even when the evidence did not back the accuser.
Is it time to change our judicial system?
What say you?

Yep, They acted like Europeans. Their system is guilty until proven innocent, And they have no right to freedom of speech over there and no right to firearms.

liar

In a time when a large portion of the country thinks the last President was born in Kenya, I don’t think it went outside the generic political process.

But, not a character assassination. Rapist....serial rapist, pedophile? Did they have a senate...."job interview" on the subject?
You're talking apples and oranges, Toro.

Yeah, you’re right. Nobody said shit like that about the Clintons.

YOU DID> You fucking asswipes ran screaming through the streets " OMG OMG OMG OMG MonIca!!!!!, OMG OMG OMG:"

Then you turn around & voted for a POS like Trump.

The vast majority of accusations again Clinton came after his elections. So people were not voting knowing about these. You knew about Trump.
'

Karma is a bitch, There would be no Trump if there was no Obama. And then you silly fuckers tried to force Hildabeast on us

So,you are saying you were so fucking stupid that you voted for Trump & that is Obama's fault?

How did Obama make orump win the nomination? By being black & firing up the racist & bigot vote?

You silly little fuckers forced Obama on the country, now we have Trump.

 

[RealDave]

Republicans have proven that women don't matter.

Don't matter much to Bill and Hillary did they?

Nor the Democrats that gave him a pass on impeachment.

But, keep posting your hypocrisy
for everyone to see.


Makes reading threads a pleasure

So you think it was proper to prosecute Bill for lying under oath but not Kavanaugh for lying under oath. Who are you calling a hypocrite here?

Bull supposedly lied about a consensual sexual affair while Kavanaugh was lying about attempted Rape.

Sill you can't see the difference.

She did not know what happened, where it happened, how it happened, and she has no proof... you silly little fucker

She knows what happened. Is attempted rape different depending on which house it is in???? Does it not exist unless there are witnesses?

Does a women get assaulted in the middfle of the forrest if no one is there to see?

She has no credibility, she destroyed his family with her false allegations

He destroyed his own family b doing stupid shit when he was a sloppy drunk for at least 10 years.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

All three entities, the democrat party, the MSM, and the 'grassroot gatherers' all abandoned
what made the United States great with it's judicial system.

The MSM is the Democrat Party

 

[basquebromance]

did you know?
although prosecutors are required to consult with rape victims about plea deals, they are completely free to ignore the victim's requests. a rape victim has no right to veto a plea deal.

 

[RealDave]

We need a discussion on whether a person now should have to prove his innocence
than having an accuser having to prove the person's guilt.
During the Kavanaugh hearings, one party seemed to demand proof of innocence from
Kavanaugh. This same party did not demand the accuser to prove Kavanaugh's guilt.
This went so far as to have the MSM be complicit in their covering of the hearings.
This went so far as to have the 'grassroot gatherings' be complicit in the covering of
the hearings.
All three entities, the democrat party, the MSM, and the 'grassroot gatherers' all abandoned
what made the United States great with it's judicial system. They all demanded that an accused had to
prove his innocence, even when the evidence did not back the accuser.
Is it time to change our judicial system?
What say you?

Yep, They acted like Europeans. Their system is guilty until proven innocent, And they have no right to freedom of speech over there and no right to firearms.

liar

But, not a character assassination. Rapist....serial rapist, pedophile? Did they have a senate...."job interview" on the subject?
You're talking apples and oranges, Toro.

Yeah, you’re right. Nobody said shit like that about the Clintons.

YOU DID> You fucking asswipes ran screaming through the streets " OMG OMG OMG OMG MonIca!!!!!, OMG OMG OMG:"

Then you turn around & voted for a POS like Trump.

The vast majority of accusations again Clinton came after his elections. So people were not voting knowing about these. You knew about Trump.
'

Karma is a bitch, There would be no Trump if there was no Obama. And then you silly fuckers tried to force Hildabeast on us

So,you are saying you were so fucking stupid that you voted for Trump & that is Obama's fault?

How did Obama make orump win the nomination? By being black & firing up the racist & bigot vote?

You silly little fuckers forced Obama on the country, now we have Trump.

Obama won the popular vote by 120 million votes & got nearly 53% of the votes,.

 

[Meister]

We need a discussion on whether a person now should have to prove his innocence
than having an accuser having to prove the person's guilt.
During the Kavanaugh hearings, one party seemed to demand proof of innocence from
Kavanaugh. This same party did not demand the accuser to prove Kavanaugh's guilt.
This went so far as to have the MSM be complicit in their covering of the hearings.
This went so far as to have the 'grassroot gatherings' be complicit in the covering of
the hearings.
All three entities, the democrat party, the MSM, and the 'grassroot gatherers' all abandoned
what made the United States great with it's judicial system. They all demanded that an accused had to
prove his innocence, even when the evidence did not back the accuser.
Is it time to change our judicial system?
What say you?

Yep, They acted like Europeans. Their system is guilty until proven innocent, And they have no right to freedom of speech over there and no right to firearms.

liar

In a time when a large portion of the country thinks the last President was born in Kenya, I don’t think it went outside the generic political process.

But, not a character assassination. Rapist....serial rapist, pedophile? Did they have a senate...."job interview" on the subject?
You're talking apples and oranges, Toro.

Yeah, you’re right. Nobody said shit like that about the Clintons.

YOU DID> You fucking asswipes ran screaming through the streets " OMG OMG OMG OMG MonIca!!!!!, OMG OMG OMG:"

Then you turn around & voted for a POS like Trump.

The vast majority of accusations again Clinton came after his elections. So people were not voting knowing about these. You knew about Trump.
'

Karma is a bitch, There would be no Trump if there was no Obama. And then you silly fuckers tried to force Hildabeast on us

So,you are saying you were so fucking stupid that you voted for Trump & that is Obama's fault?

How did Obama make orump win the nomination? By being black & firing up the racist & bigot vote?

It really was Obama that opened the door for Trump. Conservatives and enough independents didn't want another 4 years of Opie's policies.

Dave, I have no idea why anyone would even have a conversation with you. Nothing but condescending insults in each of your posts.
If that is the only way you can have a conversation to get your point across, you don't have much of a point going for you.

 

[miketx]

Democrat Party's 2018 platform is based entirely on "Guilt by accusation".

Republicans are running on: Rape & sexual assault os OK if there are no witnesses.

Lying under oath is permissible if you are a Republican.

--------------------------------------- i don't think so , i think that rape and sex assault should be reported in timely fashion to proper authorities and whatever evidence should be gathered in a timely fashion RDave .

What you think is worthless. What counts is what psychiatrists think. They know the trauma & how it affects people.

All Ford was doing is letting people know what Kavanaugh had done. She didn't realize so many of you don't give a shit.

You voted for Trump. Accused by 18 women. Accused of Child rape Accused of Spousal Rape.., An admitted Groper.

'Hell, you probably wanted Kavanaugh even more after Ford told her story.


Republicans have proven that women don't matter. Grassley called them weak, Trump, Kavanaugh & you think sexual assault should be rewarded.

Really? Why don't dims believe Juanita Broderick then?

 

[Rustic]

We need a discussion on whether a person now should have to prove his innocence
than having an accuser having to prove the person's guilt.
During the Kavanaugh hearings, one party seemed to demand proof of innocence from
Kavanaugh. This same party did not demand the accuser to prove Kavanaugh's guilt.
This went so far as to have the MSM be complicit in their covering of the hearings.
This went so far as to have the 'grassroot gatherings' be complicit in the covering of
the hearings.
All three entities, the democrat party, the MSM, and the 'grassroot gatherers' all abandoned
what made the United States great with it's judicial system. They all demanded that an accused had to
prove his innocence, even when the evidence did not back the accuser.
Is it time to change our judicial system?
What say you?

Yep, They acted like Europeans. Their system is guilty until proven innocent, And they have no right to freedom of speech over there and no right to firearms.

liar

Yeah, you’re right. Nobody said shit like that about the Clintons.

YOU DID> You fucking asswipes ran screaming through the streets " OMG OMG OMG OMG MonIca!!!!!, OMG OMG OMG:"

Then you turn around & voted for a POS like Trump.

The vast majority of accusations again Clinton came after his elections. So people were not voting knowing about these. You knew about Trump.
'

Karma is a bitch, There would be no Trump if there was no Obama. And then you silly fuckers tried to force Hildabeast on us

So,you are saying you were so fucking stupid that you voted for Trump & that is Obama's fault?

How did Obama make orump win the nomination? By being black & firing up the racist & bigot vote?

You silly little fuckers forced Obama on the country, now we have Trump.

Obama won the popular vote by 120 million votes & got nearly 53% of the votes,.

Yes, in urban areas. We had to put up with the shit stain in rural areas for eight years.
Now are you have to put up with Trump… Karma is a bitch

 

[bendog]

We need a discussion on whether a person now should have to prove his innocence
than having an accuser having to prove the person's guilt.
During the Kavanaugh hearings, one party seemed to demand proof of innocence from
Kavanaugh. This same party did not demand the accuser to prove Kavanaugh's guilt.
This went so far as to have the MSM be complicit in their covering of the hearings.
This went so far as to have the 'grassroot gatherings' be complicit in the covering of
the hearings.
All three entities, the democrat party, the MSM, and the 'grassroot gatherers' all abandoned
what made the United States great with it's judicial system. They all demanded that an accused had to
prove his innocence, even when the evidence did not back the accuser.
Is it time to change our judicial system?
What say you?

I say you can't tell a criminal court from public opinion.

 

[RealDave]

Republicans have proven that women don't matter.

Don't matter much to Bill and Hillary did they?

Nor the Democrats that gave him a pass on impeachment.

But, keep posting your hypocrisy
for everyone to see.


Makes reading threads a pleasure

So you think it was proper to prosecute Bill for lying under oath but not Kavanaugh for lying under oath. Who are you calling a hypocrite here?

Bull supposedly lied about a consensual sexual affair while Kavanaugh was lying about attempted Rape.

Sill you can't see the difference.

She did not know what happened, where it happened, how it happened, and she has no proof... you silly little fucker

She knows what happened. Is attempted rape different depending on which house it is in???? Does it not exist unless there are witnesses?

Does a women get assaulted in the middfle of the forrest if no one is there to see?

She has no credibility, she destroyed his family with her false allegations

False? Right. Ford was credible,. A college professor. Well renowned in her field.

You believed the ramblings of a guy who spent his high school and college life as a sloppy drunk.