Zone1 Is Jesus God?

[kjw47]

Jesus is saying He is God in Revelation.

That would be impossible.

 

[kjw47]

That's a lie.

Its fact sir, Even trinity scholars know its fact.

 

[BS Filter]

That would be impossible.

Scripture doesn't lie. The Watchtower lies.

 

[BS Filter]

Its fact sir, Even trinity scholars know its fact.

Trinity scholars believe Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

If Jesus being God is such an important theological point, then why didn't he ever straight up say, "I am God"? Instead we get ambiguous verses that we're supposed to infer from.

 

[onefour1]

Where does the Bible say that only God can forgive sins and that he can't transfer that power to anyone else?

How would being saved by angels indicate that Jesus is God? Why would God need angels to save him if he jumped off a mountain? The conversation makes no sense if Satan thinks that Jesus is God. And if you're right that Jesus is claiming left and right to be God, then why would Jesus object to his divinity being shown?


There's a single instance of God telling Moses to tell his people that "I Am" sent him. I don't even think Moses used it when speaking to his people.

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I'm sorry. I'll stop saying reasonable things.


Again, you claimed that Jesus claimed to be God. You haven't provided a single example. All of your purported example require us to infer that Jesus was claiming to be God. Perhaps others thought he was God. That's irrelevant to your claim.


Not at all. First of all that's a debatable translation. Second of all, if the NT contradicts the OT then we have to side with the OT since the NT tell us that all scripture (i.e. the OT) is useful for instruction.


As John 1 tells us Jesus was the word of God made flesh. Gen 1 tells us that God spoke the universe into being. First there was God, then there was the Word of God, and then there were all the material things created by God. All things just means all material objects in heaven and earth.


I'm not saying the pre-incarnation Jesus was an abstract idea.

I'm not sure why you keep mentioning Daniel. You cited Isaiah 9:6, which I said wasn't about Jesus. I didn't say that it wasn't about the Messiah. Let me quote Is. 9:6-7 so that you can see why it was not about Jesus:

"6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

As anyone with eyes can see, Jesus failed to fulfill Is. 9:7.



The Magi were from Persia. They were priests of Zoroastrianism. Daniel and Isaiah were devout Jews, not Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians don't have any prophecies about a Jewish Messiah. They would have been looking for a person known as Saoshyant. Interestingly the story of Jesus sounds like Saoshyant with Jewish clothes on. You may want to consider converting to Zoroastrianism.


Jesus was constantly rebuking the Apostles for not understanding what he was saying. Paul never met Jesus and was constantly butting heads with the Apostles. Not of the books in the Bible were even written by any of the Apostles.



Is. 14:4 "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"

God told Isaiah to confront the King of Babylon, not Satan.

Isaiah 14:12-16 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Satan was an angel, not a man.

Angels are men. They are either premortal mankind, mortal mankind, post mortal spirits of mankind, translated men, or resurrected man. An angel is just a messenger.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Angels are men. They are either premortal mankind, mortal mankind, post mortal spirits of mankind, translated men, or resurrected man. An angel is just a messenger.

That's an interesting theory. I don't know anything in the Bible that supports it. Is it a Mormon thing?

 

[BS Filter]

If Jesus being God is such an important theological point, then why didn't he ever straight up say, "I am God"? Instead we get ambiguous verses that we're supposed to infer from.

He said He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Everyone who knows Scripture understands that means God. He was quoting the prophet Isaiah. He also said he is "I AM". That's what God calls Himself in Exodus.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

He said He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Everyone who knows Scripture understands that means God. He was quoting the prophet Isaiah. He also said he is "I AM". That's what God calls Himself in Exodus.

Again, all these thing require inference. Why didn't he just say "I am God" and leave no room for debate?

 

[BS Filter]

Again, all these thing require inference. Why didn't he just say "I am God" and leave no room for debate?

He did say he was God. He used Scripture.

 

[onefour1]

That's an interesting theory. I don't know anything in the Bible that supports it. Is it a Mormon thing?

Doctrine and Covenant 76:25-27
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

Satan is said to be an angel yet in Isaiah 14:16 we have the following:

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Here Satan is called a man. In the Book of Revelation, John is visited by and angel and then we read:

Revelation 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Here the angel teaches John that he is a fellowservant and the same as his brethren that are of the prophets.

It is a doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith received the following revelation on the subject:

Doctrine and Covenants

SECTION 129

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, February 9, 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished.

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Joseph describes angels that will come and visit and deliver their message in these latter days. Before Christ's resurrection, because Christ was the first to resurrect, no angels had resurrected bodies. Thus they could only be spirits. To Joseph Smith it was also revealed that only those who belong to this earth will administer to this earth as angels. Thus a being who belongs to another world would not administer to this world.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:4-5
4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?
5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

In latter-day scripture it has been revealed to us that Adam is Michael the archangel and Noah is Gabriel.

 

[BS Filter]

Doctrine and Covenant 76:25-27
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

Satan is said to be an angel yet in Isaiah 14:16 we have the following:

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Here Satan is called a man. In the Book of Revelation, John is visited by and angel and then we read:

Revelation 22:8-9
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Here the angel teaches John that he is a fellowservant and the same as his brethren that are of the prophets.

It is a doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith received the following revelation on the subject:

Doctrine and Covenants

SECTION 129

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, February 9, 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished.

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

Joseph describes angels that will come and visit and deliver their message in these latter days. Before Christ's resurrection, because Christ was the first to resurrect, no angels had resurrected bodies. Thus they could only be spirits. To Joseph Smith it was also revealed that only those who belong to this earth will administer to this earth as angels. Thus a being who belongs to another world would not administer to this world.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:4-5
4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?
5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.

In latter-day scripture it has been revealed to us that Adam is Michael the archangel and Noah is Gabriel.

That doesn't agree with Scripture. You're preaching another gospel. Read Galatians chapter one.

 

[kjw47]

Trinity scholars believe Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

They live in the darkness of Catholicism translating. But they know 100% that the word is not called-God at John 1:1 but say nothing-god is correct. Not only would hundreds of religions be proven false and billions of dollars lost yearly. 2 billion humans would sue them as well for taking their money when they do know.

 

[BS Filter]

They live in the darkness of Catholicism translating. But they know 100% that the word is not called-God at John 1:1 but say nothing-god is correct. Not only would hundreds of religions be proven false and billions of dollars lost yearly. 2 billion humans would sue them as well for taking their money when they do know.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

 

[onefour1]

John 1:1-3, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Colossians 2:8-9
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[BS Filter]

They live in the darkness of Catholicism translating. But they know 100% that the word is not called-God at John 1:1 but say nothing-god is correct. Not only would hundreds of religions be proven false and billions of dollars lost yearly. 2 billion humans would sue them as well for taking their money when they do know.

From your own Bible, Revelation 1:7-8.
7 Look! He is coming with the clouds,+ and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.+ Yes, Amen.8 “I am the Alʹpha and God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”+

When was Jehovah pierced?

 

[surada]

That would be impossible.

That's what Alpha and Omega mean. They are first and last letters in the Greek alphabet.

 

[surada]

From your own Bible, Revelation 1:7-8.
7 Look! He is coming with the clouds,+ and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.+ Yes, Amen.8 “I am the Alʹpha and God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”+

When was Jehovah pierced?

During the crucifixion.

 

[onefour1]

That doesn't agree with Scripture. You're preaching another gospel. Read Galatians chapter one.

It fully agrees with scripture. I've read Galatians 1 and there is nothing in that chapter that goes against what I taught above.

 

[BS Filter]

It fully agrees with scripture. I've read Galatians 1 and there is nothing in that verse that goes against what I taught above.

But there is. Your gospel is not the Gospel Paul preached.