Zone1 Is Jesus God?

[irosie91]

Or people lied about what he said to discredit his teaching as the hubris of a drunken lunatic.

what people lied? What people did not lie?

 

[LeroyDumonde]

You're ignoring what the religious authorities of the day had to say about Him, that they thought He was speaking blasphemy. They knew that only God can forgive sin, and Jesus was forgiving sin. That made it abundantly clear that He was claiming to be God. Notice also that He said He HAD the power to forgive sin. When did He not have it and when was it given to Him?

I don't think Jesus ever said when God gave him that authority.

Balderdash, he was tempting Jesus to flaunt His authority as Messiah.

Nope. Satan explicitly mentions God sending angels to save Jesus. He's tempting God, not Jesus.

Nonsense. To the observant Jew, "I am" is one of the titles of God Himself. You have to understand how they thought, and when you do, you'll understand that they knew absolutely Yeshua was claiming to be God.

"I Am" is not a title of God.

He didn't have to, for several reasons:

1. He was born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth, NOT Samaria.

At the time Nazareth was a necropolis so no Jews would have lived there. This story is clearly not true.

2. When he met the Samaritan women at the well, she identified Him as a Jew.

She was mistaken. He had previously been accused of being a Samaritan and you would say that they were mistaken. Samaritans were just Jews who remained in Israel during the Diaspora, so it would be easy to make that mistake.

From Isaiah 44:

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

This is implies that Jesus is not God. We're told that Jesus sits at the right hand of God (Mark 16:19) and God just said there was no god beside him. If Jesus is at the right hand of God then he is beside him.

Which is contradicted by the very next verse.

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Obviously, verse 15 cannot be construed so as to make Him a created being.

Go back to Gen 1 and see how God created the heavens and the earth. God spoke these things into existence. What does John 1 tell us about Jesus? He's the Word of God. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. He was created first, but is not of the heavens and earth.

Uh, yes it is. It is about Messiah, who was revealed on the day Daniel prophesied, and who was Yeshua.

No, that's just a common misreading by Christians.

Philippians 2:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Your claim was that Jesus claimed that he was God. What Paul said is a different issue.

Remember, that was the very sin that got Lucifer thrown out of heaven. If you want to say Yeshua was a created being equal with Lucifer, you have to call God inconsistent for punishing one's sin and not the other. No created being is equal with his creator.

Lucifer is not Satan. That's another common Christian misreading of scripture. Lucifer was a symbolic name given to the king of Babylon. It's obvious from context.

 

[kjw47]

I can't think for myself, then

Jesus SAID HE is God.

Either He was a liar, which means we can't believe ANYTHING He said

or He was indeed God

"If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father"

"The Father and I are one."

He isn't saying he is God in either quote.

 

[Moonglow]

Yes. When he ascended to Heaven he joined with God and the Holy Spirit and the three became one.

Also the the Eucharist becomes the actually body of Christ through Transubstantiation. Cannibals I tells ya, cannibals.

I did it in the vestibule...

 

[Moonglow]

Jesus existed with God before anything was created, supposedly.

 

[kjw47]

Jesus existed with God before anything was created, supposedly.

Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creation= created direct first and last, all other things created THROUGH him by his God and Father.

 

[hadit]

The Hebrew scriptures= the OT. Gods name is in those nearly 6800 spots. Quoted over 200 times in the NT and the name belongs. Doesnt it seem strange to you that since Jesus, in the Lords prayer clearly showed Gods name was the #1 most important thing a mortal could consider, and his will and his kingdom. That wicked men by satans will show the opposite by the removal of Gods name in most translations. Those translations are altered by satans will, thus ones religion is 100% clear whose will they support by the translation they use.

The King James, that you so cavalierly reject, was translated directly from the copies of the original texts, and we have verified that the ones used were extremely accurate copies of far older ones. Your translation, OTOH, has been altered to remove anything that could speak to the divinity of Christ. I challenge you, therefore, to definitively show how the King James version is "altered" while yours is not.

 

[hadit]

When it was written, " The Word became flesh" the subject was never about God becoming a human being. The preexisting metaphor for the Word of God was Manna, bread from heaven, the food of angels, representing Divine instruction. When it says "The Word became flesh" the subject is about bread, becoming a new metaphor, flesh, - the flesh of Jesus -, for Divine instruction. Nothing irrational, superstitious, blasphemous, or impossible to understand about it. Its simple. "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread (teaching from God) is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

Eternal life is the promise for complying with Divine Law... Life is in the blood, in the doing.

"God is not a man so he does not lie; he is not human so he does not change his mind"

Except you're ignoring the rest of that passage, where it clearly states that the Word "dwelt among us", which is not something an idea or metaphor does. A physical body, OTOH, does.

 

[hadit]

Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creation= created direct first and last, all other things created THROUGH him by his God and Father.

By Him were ALL things created that were created. You have to play linguistic games to make it say otherwise.

 

[hadit]

I don't think Jesus ever said when God gave him that authority.

He didn't say it, because it didn't happen. Yeshua had the power to forgive sin because He is God, there was no need to transfer any such power to Him.

Nope. Satan explicitly mentions God sending angels to save Jesus. He's tempting God, not Jesus.

Of course, he explicitly mentions them because he was trying to use Scripture and God's promises to tempt Yeshua into an outward show of divinity. Yeshua shut him down.

"I Am" is not a title of God.

Actually, it is one of God's titles. You have to be deliberately ignorant of Moses to avoid that.

At the time Nazareth was a necropolis so no Jews would have lived there. This story is clearly not true.

"At the time"? What source do you have that Nazareth was uninhabited by Jews during the first half of the first century?

She was mistaken. He had previously been accused of being a Samaritan and you would say that they were mistaken. Samaritans were just Jews who remained in Israel during the Diaspora, so it would be easy to make that mistake.

What mistake? She obviously recognized He was not one of her people. You're just saying things, hoping they'll sound reasonable.

This is implies that Jesus is not God. We're told that Jesus sits at the right hand of God (Mark 16:19) and God just said there was no god beside him. If Jesus is at the right hand of God then he is beside him.

Of course, because Yeshua and the Father are one. When you see Yeshua, you see the Father, yet Yeshua lowered Himself to take on a servant's form, thinking it not robbery to be equal with God.

Go back to Gen 1 and see how God created the heavens and the earth. God spoke these things into existence. What does John 1 tell us about Jesus? He's the Word of God. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. He was created first, but is not of the heavens and earth.

John 1 tells us that Yeshua Himself created all things. From John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

So here we see that the Word was both God and WITH God. That should dispel any problems you have with seeing Yeshua seated at the right hand of God. Continuing:

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And here we see that ALL things that were made were made, not by an abstract idea, but by a PERSON, and that He created them. "Anything that was made" would have to include Himself, so you're basically arguing that He created Himself. Not happening.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Again, HIM. Not an abstract idea.

No, that's just a common misreading by Christians.

Interesting. In what way is Daniel a misreading? He very clearly states when Messiah was to be revealed, and He was. In fact, that's how the Magi from the east, Babylon, knew when to come looking for Him as a child. They were told by Daniel, who was, after all, the master of the magicians, when and where to look.

Your claim was that Jesus claimed that he was God. What Paul said is a different issue.

The early church CLEARLY understood that He indeed is God. They walked with Him, talked with Him, observed His actions, and being Jews themselves, understood exactly what He was saying in every instance when He made that claim. Paul echoed that understanding.

Lucifer is not Satan. That's another common Christian misreading of scripture. Lucifer was a symbolic name given to the king of Babylon. It's obvious from context.

Except that it is very clear that the title, "King of Babylon" refers to Satan, as it references his being cast out of heaven. Regardless, Satan was kicked out of heaven because he sought to be equal with God while Yeshua was HONORED by God, despite thinking Himself equal with God. Satan and Yeshua are clearly NOT on the same level, since they both had the same thought.

 

[hadit]

Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creation= created direct first and last, all other things created THROUGH him by his God and Father.

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

Pretty clear here that the Word is Yeshua.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Who came unto His own? Yeshua. Who created the world? Yeshua.

 

[hadit]

If you are trying to say John 1 isn't about Jesus, then you should be able to tell me WHO was there at creation WITH God that WAS God. It then clearly says that the Word that was there in the beginning became man. Again, if you don't like that, tell me what it's REALLY saying, because it's pretty clear. The one who was WITH God and who WAS God became a man.

And again, if you don't think so, WHO WAS IT? Who was God yet separate from God at the same time?

 

[LeroyDumonde]

He didn't say it, because it didn't happen. Yeshua had the power to forgive sin because He is God, there was no need to transfer any such power to Him.

Where does the Bible say that only God can forgive sins and that he can't transfer that power to anyone else?

Of course, he explicitly mentions them because he was trying to use Scripture and God's promises to tempt Yeshua into an outward show of divinity. Yeshua shut him down.

How would being saved by angels indicate that Jesus is God? Why would God need angels to save him if he jumped off a mountain? The conversation makes no sense if Satan thinks that Jesus is God. And if you're right that Jesus is claiming left and right to be God, then why would Jesus object to his divinity being shown?

Actually, it is one of God's titles. You have to be deliberately ignorant of Moses to avoid that.

There's a single instance of God telling Moses to tell his people that "I Am" sent him. I don't even think Moses used it when speaking to his people.

"At the time"? What source do you have that Nazareth was uninhabited by Jews during the first half of the first century?

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What mistake? She obviously recognized He was not one of her people. You're just saying things, hoping they'll sound reasonable.

I'm sorry. I'll stop saying reasonable things.

Of course, because Yeshua and the Father are one. When you see Yeshua, you see the Father, yet Yeshua lowered Himself to take on a servant's form, thinking it not robbery to be equal with God.

Again, you claimed that Jesus claimed to be God. You haven't provided a single example. All of your purported example require us to infer that Jesus was claiming to be God. Perhaps others thought he was God. That's irrelevant to your claim.

John 1 tells us that Yeshua Himself created all things. From John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

So here we see that the Word was both God and WITH God. That should dispel any problems you have with seeing Yeshua seated at the right hand of God.

Not at all. First of all that's a debatable translation. Second of all, if the NT contradicts the OT then we have to side with the OT since the NT tell us that all scripture (i.e. the OT) is useful for instruction.

Continuing:

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And here we see that ALL things that were made were made, not by an abstract idea, but by a PERSON, and that He created them. "Anything that was made" would have to include Himself, so you're basically arguing that He created Himself. Not happening.

As John 1 tells us Jesus was the word of God made flesh. Gen 1 tells us that God spoke the universe into being. First there was God, then there was the Word of God, and then there were all the material things created by God. All things just means all material objects in heaven and earth.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Again, HIM. Not an abstract idea.

I'm not saying the pre-incarnation Jesus was an abstract idea.

Interesting. In what way is Daniel a misreading? He very clearly states when Messiah was to be revealed, and He was.

I'm not sure why you keep mentioning Daniel. You cited Isaiah 9:6, which I said wasn't about Jesus. I didn't say that it wasn't about the Messiah. Let me quote Is. 9:6-7 so that you can see why it was not about Jesus:

"6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

As anyone with eyes can see, Jesus failed to fulfill Is. 9:7.

In fact, that's how the Magi from the east, Babylon, knew when to come looking for Him as a child. They were told by Daniel, who was, after all, the master of the magicians, when and where to look.

The Magi were from Persia. They were priests of Zoroastrianism. Daniel and Isaiah were devout Jews, not Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians don't have any prophecies about a Jewish Messiah. They would have been looking for a person known as Saoshyant. Interestingly the story of Jesus sounds like Saoshyant with Jewish clothes on. You may want to consider converting to Zoroastrianism.

The early church CLEARLY understood that He indeed is God. They walked with Him, talked with Him, observed His actions, and being Jews themselves, understood exactly what He was saying in every instance when He made that claim. Paul echoed that understanding.

Jesus was constantly rebuking the Apostles for not understanding what he was saying. Paul never met Jesus and was constantly butting heads with the Apostles. Not of the books in the Bible were even written by any of the Apostles.

Except that it is very clear that the title, "King of Babylon" refers to Satan, as it references his being cast out of heaven. Regardless, Satan was kicked out of heaven because he sought to be equal with God while Yeshua was HONORED by God, despite thinking Himself equal with God. Satan and Yeshua are clearly NOT on the same level, since they both had the same thought.

Is. 14:4 "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"

God told Isaiah to confront the King of Babylon, not Satan.

Isaiah 14:12-16 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Satan was an angel, not a man.

 

[kjw47]

The King James, that you so cavalierly reject, was translated directly from the copies of the original texts, and we have verified that the ones used were extremely accurate copies of far older ones. Your translation, OTOH, has been altered to remove anything that could speak to the divinity of Christ. I challenge you, therefore, to definitively show how the King James version is "altered" while yours is not.

No originals were left when the kjv was translated--The latin Vulgate was what was translated into Greek Lexicons. Catholicism translating.=filled with errors to mislead and the removal of Gods name. In 2015 the divine name KJV came out--putting Gods name back in the over 7000 places it belongs.

 

[ActionJackson]

"Is Jesus God?"​

Yes. Jesus is God! John 1:1 and 1:14

 

[kjw47]

By Him were ALL things created that were created. You have to play linguistic games to make it say otherwise.

1 Cor 1:16= THROUGH Jesus. That means another did it= his God and Father did it.

 

[kjw47]

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

Pretty clear here that the Word is Yeshua.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Who came unto His own? Yeshua. Who created the world? Yeshua.

In the Greek Lexicons at John 1:1-The true God is called Ton Theon=God, the word is called Theon= god. Same occurs at 2 Cor 4:4-God called Ton Theon=God, satan called Theon= god. translating works the same at both spots. When both God and god are in the same paragraph, that is why the true God is called Ton Theon=The God. This is fact. That small error of a capitol G God to the word has mislead billions through the centuries.
Your translations come from Catholicism( 2 Thess 2:3) translating. Thus your eternal life depends on Catholicism translating. Jesus was NEVER with Catholicism, they do not listen to him.

 

[kjw47]

"Is Jesus God?"​

Yes. Jesus is God! John 1:1 and 1:14

Not in the Greek lexicons--At John 1:1 the true God called Ton Theon=The God, while the word is called Theon= god, when in the same paragraph with Ton Theon like at 2 Cor 4:4--this is fact.

 

[BS Filter]

He isn't saying he is God in either quote.

Jesus is saying He is God in Revelation.

 

[BS Filter]

Not in the Greek lexicons--At John 1:1 the true God called Ton Theon=The God, while the word is called Theon= god, when in the same paragraph with Ton Theon like at 2 Cor 4:4--this is fact.

That's a lie.