Isaiah 53, the forbidden chapter of the Hebrew Bible

[buttercup]

There should be no issue with them telling their own story.

The issue here isn't Jews telling their own story. The issue here is non-Jews telling Jews their own story.

It's like a Black History Month Essay Contest where all the contestants are white.

Has someone ever held a gun to your head to force you to listen to the Christian message? Take the religion section, for example. No one is forcing you to read any thread here. You choose to click on and read threads. Are you saying that Christians should not be allowed to speak at all, just on the chance that you might happen to come across their post which you do not want to see?

If you want to shelter yourself from any viewpoint other than the one you grew up with, then you might want to avoid the religion section altogether.

Or are you saying that Christians should not talk about who the Messiah is? The Messiah came through Israel, but He is the Savior of the whole world, not only the Jewish people. And just in case this needs to be stated, physical lineage has absolutely nothing to do with salvation or understanding truth. So one doesn't need to be Jewish to find God.

In fact, the Bible is very clear in both the Old and New Testaments that we are not justified by our physical lineage or works, we are justified by faith. In Genesis it says Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

If one believes that their bloodline or works will gain them salvation, then they are gravely mistaken. But that's a topic for its own thread too.

 

[Meriweather]

Of course it is! My point was that it is not necessary in order to know God and understand the truth.

For that matter it is not necessary to read the Bible at all to know God and understand the truth. After all, the original authors had no Bible to read.

There is a lot to be said to read anything that is written through the eyes of the original author and the original audience. To claim that we who speak modern English and live in the 21st century know what this author really said/meant isn't exactly the humble student's approach.

I have no doubt that Jesus knew the writings of Isaiah and knew them well. He patterned his own actions after Israel at its best.

In my opinion, it is not the words of Isaiah that have been hijacked by Christianity, but also Jesus as a model to traditional Jewish teachings. I know and accept that Jews can never accept Jesus as one with God, but they should be able to accept him as an outstanding member of their own race.

 

[Meriweather]

The reason this topic got brought up in the first place is because I brought up several reasons why Isaiah 53 is not about the nation of Israel, and the reasons I listed were backed up scripturally. In response to that, someone said something like, "So I should believe you rather than someone with decades of education?" - implying that only higher education or being fluent in Hebrew is the key to understanding God.

Isaiah 53 is indeed about the nation of Israel, a servant of God. Jesus saw himself a servant of God, and he modeled himself after what the nation was called to do. It was an astounding and outstanding service for God.

 

[Meriweather]

The issue here isn't Jews telling their own story. The issue here is non-Jews telling Jews their own story.

I agree. It seems Catholics and people of all faiths and denomination have that same issue--others telling us what we are "really" doing or did or said.

 

[buttercup]

I know and accept that Jews can never accept Jesus as one with God, but they should be able to accept him as an outstanding member of their own race.

That is demonstrably false, many Jews DO come to accept Jesus as one with God, and they consider themselves Messianic Jews. You can find their testimonies here:

I MET MESSIAH (Jewish Testimonies) – ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

www.oneforisrael.org

 

[Meriweather]

Or are you saying that Christians should not talk about who the Messiah is? The Messiah came through Israel, but He is the Savior of the whole world, not only the Jewish people.

"Messiah" means anointed one. The Jewish people are looking for the human person who is anointed to be as great a political ruler as David. Jesus insisted he was not this messiah. To back this up, Jesus said it was Moses (not Isaiah) who referenced him--Moses who lived long before David and Saul, in the time Judges--not kings--were first appointed.

For all we know, perhaps there will be another human Jewish leader appointed by God. This takes nothing from the task Jesus was anointed to do.

 

[buttercup]

The reason this topic got brought up in the first place is because I brought up several reasons why Isaiah 53 is not about the nation of Israel, and the reasons I listed were backed up scripturally. In response to that, someone said something like, "So I should believe you rather than someone with decades of education?" - implying that only higher education or being fluent in Hebrew is the key to understanding God.

Isaiah 53 is indeed about the nation of Israel, a servant of God. Jesus saw himself a servant of God, and he modeled himself after what the nation was called to do. It was an astounding and outstanding service for God.

Of course Jesus was a servant of God, but Jesus is not the nation of Israel, meaning the people collectively.

Maybe it was just the way you worded your post that was unclear, but it sounds like you are contradicting yourself. Do you believe it is about the nation of Israel (the people collectively), or about Jesus? To me it speaks for itself and it is one of the most powerful prophetic chapters in the Bible.

 

[Meriweather]

That is demonstrably false, many Jews DO come to accept Jesus as one with God, and they consider themselves Messianic Jews.

Who do Jews consider them? And, why not consider themselves Christian as opposed to Messianic Jews?

 

[Meriweather]

Of course Jesus was a servant of God, but Jesus is not the nation of Israel, meaning the people collectively.

Maybe it was just the way you worded your post that was unclear, but it sounds like you are contradicting yourself. Do you believe it is about the nation of Israel (the people collectively), or about Jesus? To me it speaks for itself and it is one of the most powerful prophetic chapters in the Bible.

The passage is about the nation. Jesus is our model of this nation, he patterned himself after it, it was who he was and is.

 

[buttercup]

"Messiah" means anointed one. The Jewish people are looking for the human person who is anointed to be as great a political ruler as David. Jesus insisted he was not this messiah. To back this up, Jesus said it was Moses (not Isaiah) who referenced him--Moses who lived long before David and Saul, in the time Judges--not kings--were first appointed.

For all we know, perhaps there will be another human Jewish leader appointed by God. This takes nothing from the task Jesus was anointed to do.

Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah. He may not have gone around yelling "I am the Messiah" but he did communicate it, more than once.

The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”​

​

Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”​

​

Mark 14:61-62​

​

_____​

But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”​

​

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”​

​

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.​

​

John 4:25-26​

​

_____​

But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.​

​

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”​

​

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

​

Mark 14:61-62​

There are more scriptures I could post, but it would take time to round them all up.

He also claimed to be one with God.

I believe one of the reasons the Jewish people rejected Jesus is because they didn't understand that the Messiah came as both the suffering servant, AND the conquering king. They were looking for the conquering king, a political ruler, so they missed the Messiah as the suffering servant, as prophesied in Psalms, Isaiah and other places.

Who do you believe Jesus is?

 

[buttercup]

Of course Jesus was a servant of God, but Jesus is not the nation of Israel, meaning the people collectively.

Maybe it was just the way you worded your post that was unclear, but it sounds like you are contradicting yourself. Do you believe it is about the nation of Israel (the people collectively), or about Jesus? To me it speaks for itself and it is one of the most powerful prophetic chapters in the Bible.

The passage is about the nation. Jesus is our model of this nation, he patterned himself after it, it was who he was and is.

No, it is not. You are contradicting yourself. It is clearly about a person, not a group of people. It is clearly about a person who is innocent and guiltless. Do you believe that the Jewish people are innocent and guiltless?

 

[buttercup]

That is demonstrably false, many Jews DO come to accept Jesus as one with God, and they consider themselves Messianic Jews.

Who do Jews consider them? And, why not consider themselves Christian as opposed to Messianic Jews?

Why must they give up their Jewishness, when what they did (accept their Messiah) is the most Jewish thing they could possibly do? Jesus was Jewish, Jesus the Messiah was prophesied in the Jewish scriptures, he taught God's will and fulfilled the law.

If you watch some of these testimonies you will hear many of them say that "the most Jewish thing they could do" was to accept the Messiah: I MET MESSIAH (Jewish Testimonies) - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

To hear that very statement for yourself, watch this video... the pertinent part is from 3:00 - 3:05

 

[Indeependent]

That is demonstrably false, many Jews DO come to accept Jesus as one with God, and they consider themselves Messianic Jews.

Who do Jews consider them? And, why not consider themselves Christian as opposed to Messianic Jews?

Why must they give up their Jewishness, when what they did (accept their Messiah) is the most Jewish thing they could possibly do? Jesus was Jewish, Jesus the Messiah was prophesied in the Jewish scriptures, he taught God's will and fulfilled the law.

If you watch some of these testimonies you will hear many of them say that "the most Jewish thing they could do" was to accept the Messiah: I MET MESSIAH (Jewish Testimonies) - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

To hear that very statement for yourself, watch this video... the pertinent part is from 3:00 - 3:05

That Jewish man is mentally ill.
There is no such word as messiah; your mass murdering Romans made it up.

 

[buttercup]

That is demonstrably false, many Jews DO come to accept Jesus as one with God, and they consider themselves Messianic Jews.

Who do Jews consider them? And, why not consider themselves Christian as opposed to Messianic Jews?

Why must they give up their Jewishness, when what they did (accept their Messiah) is the most Jewish thing they could possibly do? Jesus was Jewish, Jesus the Messiah was prophesied in the Jewish scriptures, he taught God's will and fulfilled the law.

If you watch some of these testimonies you will hear many of them say that "the most Jewish thing they could do" was to accept the Messiah: I MET MESSIAH (Jewish Testimonies) - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

To hear that very statement for yourself, watch this video... the pertinent part is from 3:00 - 3:05

That Jewish man is mentally ill.
There is no such word as messiah; your mass murdering Romans made it up.

No mentally ill person could teach such revolutionary, profound truths as Jesus did. No mentally ill person could influence billions of people the way Jesus has, and continues to, to this day, changing countless lives for the better.

And the Romans are not my people, I don't belong to them. Meriweather is a Catholic, not me.

 

[Indeependent]

That is demonstrably false, many Jews DO come to accept Jesus as one with God, and they consider themselves Messianic Jews.

Who do Jews consider them? And, why not consider themselves Christian as opposed to Messianic Jews?

Why must they give up their Jewishness, when what they did (accept their Messiah) is the most Jewish thing they could possibly do? Jesus was Jewish, Jesus the Messiah was prophesied in the Jewish scriptures, he taught God's will and fulfilled the law.

If you watch some of these testimonies you will hear many of them say that "the most Jewish thing they could do" was to accept the Messiah: I MET MESSIAH (Jewish Testimonies) - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

To hear that very statement for yourself, watch this video... the pertinent part is from 3:00 - 3:05

That Jewish man is mentally ill.
There is no such word as messiah; your mass murdering Romans made it up.

No mentally ill person could teach such revolutionary, profound truths as Jesus did. No mentally ill person could influence billions of people the way Jesus has, and continues to, to this day, changing countless lives for the better.

And the Romans are not my people, I don't belong to them. Meriweather is a Catholic, not me.

revolutionary, profound truths
What revolutionary, profound truths?
The New Testament plagiarizes The Jewish Scriptures up the kazoo; not that I expect you to know that.

 

[Natural Citizen]

That Jewish man is mentally ill.
There is no such word as messiah; your mass murdering Romans made it up.

Actually, it's an English word derived from the Hebrew and Aramic word mashih.

Used as a verb, MeS Heh. To annoint.

Mes Heh, of course, being of Egyptian origin in the form of the word MeSSeh.

The letter S in the Egyptian form is the equivalent of sh in the Hebrew and Aramic.

HelloOoo..

 

[Natural Citizen]

Hey, way to hang in there versus a group, buttercup.

I enjoy reading lively debates such as these.

 

[irosie91]

"Messiah" means anointed one. The Jewish people are looking for the human person who is anointed to be as great a political ruler as David. Jesus insisted he was not this messiah. To back this up, Jesus said it was Moses (not Isaiah) who referenced him--Moses who lived long before David and Saul, in the time Judges--not kings--were first appointed.

For all we know, perhaps there will be another human Jewish leader appointed by God. This takes nothing from the task Jesus was anointed to do.

Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah. He may not have gone around yelling "I am the Messiah" but he did communicate it, more than once.

The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”​

​

Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”​

​

Mark 14:61-62​

​

_____​

But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”​

​

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”​

​

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.​

​

John 4:25-26​

​

_____​

But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.​

​

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”​

​

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

​

Mark 14:61-62​

There are more scriptures I could post, but it would take time to round them all up.

He also claimed to be one with God.

I believe one of the reasons the Jewish people rejected Jesus is because they didn't understand that the Messiah came as both the suffering servant, AND the conquering king. They were looking for the conquering king, a political ruler, so they missed the Messiah as the suffering servant, as prophesied in Psalms, Isaiah and other places.

Who do you believe Jesus is?

it takes a really stupid person to DECIDE what those people whose writings she cannot even read to decide
"reasons the Jewish people rejected....." what "..they were looking for.." and what their ...psalms, prophets etc PROPHESY. In fact----it is not clear to me that
jews "rejected" anything of her delusion. I have been a jew all my life and never heard any of this "we reject jesus..." BS I was brought up entirely secular. Hubby was brought up in a community that was highly literate before Jesus was born----in Hebrew and Aramaic-----and knew the bible and tanach well-----He does not "reject Jesus"----he, simply, NEVER HEARD OF HIM in his youth. He is not featured at all in the Tanach, Midrash, or Talmud (despite the libels some christians like to spit featuring jews cursing some guy named Jesus day and nite)

 

[buttercup]

"Messiah" means anointed one. The Jewish people are looking for the human person who is anointed to be as great a political ruler as David. Jesus insisted he was not this messiah. To back this up, Jesus said it was Moses (not Isaiah) who referenced him--Moses who lived long before David and Saul, in the time Judges--not kings--were first appointed.

For all we know, perhaps there will be another human Jewish leader appointed by God. This takes nothing from the task Jesus was anointed to do.

Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah. He may not have gone around yelling "I am the Messiah" but he did communicate it, more than once.

The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”​

​

Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”​

​

Mark 14:61-62​

​

_____​

But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”​

​

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”​

​

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.​

​

John 4:25-26​

​

_____​

But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.​

​

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”​

​

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

​

Mark 14:61-62​

There are more scriptures I could post, but it would take time to round them all up.

He also claimed to be one with God.

I believe one of the reasons the Jewish people rejected Jesus is because they didn't understand that the Messiah came as both the suffering servant, AND the conquering king. They were looking for the conquering king, a political ruler, so they missed the Messiah as the suffering servant, as prophesied in Psalms, Isaiah and other places.

Who do you believe Jesus is?

it takes a really stupid person to DECIDE what those people whose writings she cannot even read to decide
"reasons the Jewish people rejected....." what "..they were looking for.." and what their ...psalms, prophets etc PROPHESY. In fact----it is not clear to me that
jews "rejected" anything of her delusion. I have been a jew all my life and never heard any of this "we reject jesus..." BS I was brought up entirely secular. Hubby was brought up in a community that was highly literate before Jesus was born----in Hebrew and Aramaic-----and knew the bible and tanach well-----He does not "reject Jesus"----he, simply, NEVER HEARD OF HIM in his youth. He is not featured at all in the Tanach, Midrash, or Talmud (despite the libels some christians like to spit featuring jews cursing some guy named Jesus day and nite)

In the post you are referencing, I wasn't talking about today's Jews, I was talking about the Jews of that day. 2000 years ago.

That is not something I made up, it's a commonly held view of history, based on things Jews themselves have said, and on the scriptures.

Here's an excerpt from an article on this topic:

The Jews rejected Jesus because He failed, in their eyes, to do what they expected their Messiah to do—destroy evil and all their enemies and establish an eternal kingdom with Israel as the preeminent nation in the world. The prophecies in Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 describe a suffering Messiah who would be persecuted and killed, but the Jews chose to focus instead on those prophecies that discuss His glorious victories, not His crucifixion.

The commentaries in the Talmud, written before the onset of Christianity, clearly discuss the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 and puzzle over how these would be fulfilled with the glorious setting up of the kingdom of the Messiah. After the church used these prophecies to prove the claims of Christ, the Jews took the position that the prophecies did not refer to the Messiah, but to Israel or some other person.

Why do most Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

Why do most Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah? Why did the Jews in Jesus’ time not recognize Him as the Messiah?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[irosie91]

"Messiah" means anointed one. The Jewish people are looking for the human person who is anointed to be as great a political ruler as David. Jesus insisted he was not this messiah. To back this up, Jesus said it was Moses (not Isaiah) who referenced him--Moses who lived long before David and Saul, in the time Judges--not kings--were first appointed.

For all we know, perhaps there will be another human Jewish leader appointed by God. This takes nothing from the task Jesus was anointed to do.

Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah. He may not have gone around yelling "I am the Messiah" but he did communicate it, more than once.

The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”​

​

Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”​

​

Mark 14:61-62​

​

_____​

But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”​

​

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”​

​

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.​

​

John 4:25-26​

​

_____​

But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.​

​

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”​

​

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

​

Mark 14:61-62​

There are more scriptures I could post, but it would take time to round them all up.

He also claimed to be one with God.

I believe one of the reasons the Jewish people rejected Jesus is because they didn't understand that the Messiah came as both the suffering servant, AND the conquering king. They were looking for the conquering king, a political ruler, so they missed the Messiah as the suffering servant, as prophesied in Psalms, Isaiah and other places.

Who do you believe Jesus is?

it takes a really stupid person to DECIDE what those people whose writings she cannot even read to decide
"reasons the Jewish people rejected....." what "..they were looking for.." and what their ...psalms, prophets etc PROPHESY. In fact----it is not clear to me that
jews "rejected" anything of her delusion. I have been a jew all my life and never heard any of this "we reject jesus..." BS I was brought up entirely secular. Hubby was brought up in a community that was highly literate before Jesus was born----in Hebrew and Aramaic-----and knew the bible and tanach well-----He does not "reject Jesus"----he, simply, NEVER HEARD OF HIM in his youth. He is not featured at all in the Tanach, Midrash, or Talmud (despite the libels some christians like to spit featuring jews cursing some guy named Jesus day and nite)

In the post you are referencing, I wasn't talking about today's Jews, I was talking about the Jews of that day. 2000 years ago.

That is not something I made up, it's a commonly held view of history, based on things Jews themselves have said, and on the scriptures.

Here's an excerpt from an article on this topic:

The Jews rejected Jesus because He failed, in their eyes, to do what they expected their Messiah to do—destroy evil and all their enemies and establish an eternal kingdom with Israel as the preeminent nation in the world. The prophecies in Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 describe a suffering Messiah who would be persecuted and killed, but the Jews chose to focus instead on those prophecies that discuss His glorious victories, not His crucifixion.

The commentaries in the Talmud, written before the onset of Christianity, clearly discuss the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 and puzzle over how these would be fulfilled with the glorious setting up of the kingdom of the Messiah. After the church used these prophecies to prove the claims of Christ, the Jews took the position that the prophecies did not refer to the Messiah, but to Israel or some other person.

Why do most Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

Why do most Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah? Why did the Jews in Jesus’ time not recognize Him as the Messiah?

www.gotquestions.org

wrong again. You have no idea how what you call "the glorious setting up of the Kingdom of the Messiah (sic) is described in the Talmud. Your entire description of the "rejection" of your Jesus----does not exist-----the one talmudist who DID SPECIFICALLY reject the christian theology was ONKELOS-----who was a Greek convert to Judaism and did his commentary approximately circa 100 AD . Other than Onkelos----there is no actual mention of
christian theology in the Talmud. As to "KINGDOM OF MESSIAH"----nope-----the issue is the STATE OF THE STATE----AFTER the change brought about by
the big time world change that includes a "messiah" There is no "messiah king forever or for 1000 years"